Homemade Turbulator Tape
Jim
time, but I'm not sure what tape material is best. Will Dymo tape do the job
OK? Which type?
Jim
Al
real deal its cheaper/better in the long run
Good source for it is www.wingsandwheels.com
Al
"Jim" <jimcoo...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:pPm38.20547$Xs4.4...@feed.centurytel.net...
Udo Rumpf
It is a white plastic material with a peel and stick adhesive on one half of it.
It is .022" high/thick and feels like Teflon but it is not.
You must trim the strip in half and cut on one side your zig zag.
I have used this material for years successfully and it is worth it the try.
total investment max $10.00 for one glider
Jim wrote:
SuperHP18
three years now, and the tape is still sound and in fine shape.
Jim
Thanks for the idea. I'll visit the hardware store tomorrow. Al may be right
that the best way is to buy a pre-made tape, but after spending a couple
hundred dollars just to seal my ailerons I would really like to avoid
another $70 or so for the tubulator tape.
Will the .022" inch thickness work OK for most gliders? (Mine has 13 meters
wings with a 20 to 1 aspect ratio.) I noticed that the Wings and Wheels
tapes are pretty thin. Two that are speced are .04 mm (.0016") and .05 mm
(.002").
Thanks,
Jim
"Udo Rumpf" <uru...@reach.net> wrote in message
news:3C4E0A8F...@reach.net...
Al
working for you and your nicely (expensivly) sealed ailerons.
Al
"Jim" <jimcoo...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:JSs38.20617$Xs4.4...@feed.centurytel.net...
Jim
I'm sure your right and I probably will break down and buy the pre-mades,
but I hate to spend more than I need to if there is a good way to substitute
labor for dollars.
Do you know of any source that talks about optimum thickness for turbulator
tapes. I have a good article that Dick Johnson wrote on locating them for my
glider, but he was uncertain about the best thickness. He used homemade tape
that was about .009" thick. The range between what Udo uses (.022"), what
Dick used (.009") and what Wings and Wheels sells (.002") seems pretty
large.
Thanks,
Jim
"Al" <asw17...@bigwings.org> wrote in message
news:u4snj9p...@news.supernews.com...
Al
I personaly use the Shemp Hirth style Dimple tape.
Its low profile and does the same job as turbtape and has less profile drag.
And no a Dymo labler will not prodice the size of dimple required.
Al
"Jim" <jimcoo...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:Bnt38.20620$Xs4.4...@feed.centurytel.net...
Udo Rumpf
Check your decimal points on the mm dimensions.
Not all airfoils benefit from turbulators and the once that may be helped,
could suffer in performance if not placed just right with the correct thickness.
Udo
Jim wrote:
iPilot
How can one know, does my airfoil benefit from the turbulator? In my case
I'm thinking about Jantar Std 3. If yes, where is the correct place to
install it? And ho does one know, how thick shall it be?
iPilot
"Udo Rumpf" <uru...@reach.net> wrote in message
news:3C4EBA80...@reach.net...
Jim
Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure, though, which mm dimensions are wrong.
I double checked Wings and Wheels web site
(http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm)
and they have their tapes listed as .04 and .05 mm thick in bold print and
as .4 and .5 mm in the fine print. From your reply, I'd bet that the fine
print gives the correct dimensions. That would put their tape thickness
right in line with the v-seal tape you suggested.
Thanks again,
Jim
"Udo Rumpf" wrote:
> Check your decimal points on the mm dimensions.
Jim
glider, Dick used dirty oil on the wing to indicate where any separation
bubbles might be. On my Russia, after flying with the oil, it indicated a
bubble on the lower wing surface starting about 6/10ths of the chord
distance back from the leading edge. He suggested placing the turbulator
tape about 1/3 of an inch in front of the start of the bubble.
Jim
"iPilot" <ka...@airport.ee> wrote in message
news:a2mksu$p73$1...@kadri.ut.ee...
Udo Rumpf
If the bubble is small no advantage may be gained. You should experiment.
Udo
Jim wrote:
Udo Rumpf
Experiment!
Udo
iPilot wrote:
B Lacovara
Std 3. I spoke to him after the test was published and he said he did not think
the wing would benefit from turbulators.
Maybe you could give him a call.... or, Dick are you out there to comment?
Bob
Jim Husain
>install it? And ho does one know, how thick shall it be?
I've read and been told that the Jantar 3 is one of the few ships that does not
benefit from turbulator tapes. However, I've also been told that it helps
having some zig zag tape mounted just in front of the rudder seals. Helps with
low speed rudder effectiveness.
The best way to get the most out of a Jantar is to seal all the control
surfaces.
Jim
N483SZ
gapagod...@aol.com
RGFHi
Remember you will have about .007 of adhesive attached to the material. A .4mm
thick turbulator with adhesive will be .022 thick. Also, Tim says the .5 mm
thicks turbulator is no longer offer by the manufacture.
My factory turbulators are mounted approx 1" in front of seal gaps on a Lak 17A
wing. Anyone have any wisdom about why these seals are an advantage mounted in
front of the gaps?
Jim
or .05mm film thickness" in bold in the catalog listing for turbulator
tapes. I didn't read the fine print below this heading which indicates that
the tape is actually 0.4mm and 0.5mm thick. I expect Tim will fix this in
the next update of the catalog.
Regards,
Jim
"RGFHi" <rg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020124063231...@mb-cl.aol.com...
Dick Johnson
tests with my unballasted 16.6 meter Ventus A about 7 years ago, and
those data were published in the 8/95 issue of Soaring. The method
used was an integrating wing drag probe, and they were mounted at 4
different wing spanwise locations varying from near the root to near
the tip. Turbulator chordwise test locations varied from .50 to .80
chord, and their heights varied from .125 to .78 mm.
Near the root where the wing chord was 777 mm, the .26 mm high
turbulator appeared to work the best, and its optimum location was at
.80c, near the flap and aileron hinge lines. The test .52 mm high
turbulator did little good, but somehow a .78 mm turbulator showed
some benefit, but not as much as the thinner .26 mm turbulator.
Farther outboard where the wing chord was 713 mm, the optimum
turbulator appeared to be about .26 mm high. mounted at .80c.
Where the wing chord was 590 mm, both the .20 and .26 mm high
turbulators appeared to perform well. The .40 mm turbulator worked
about as well as the .26 mm turbulator above 65 kts, but was worse
than nothing at lower airspeeds. Near the wing tip where the chord was
330 mm, the .26 mm high turbulator increased the wing drag
significantly at all chordwise test locations, but the .125 mm
turbulator only increased the drag slightly. Apparently no need for a
turbulator that near the Ventus wing tip. My conclusion were that the
.50 mm high ZZ turbulators that were in common use at that time were
too high.
Al
Al
"Dick Johnson" <jds...@wans.net> wrote in message
news:45dfc197.02012...@posting.google.com...
B Lacovara
Could you comment on your test of the SZD-59, and your conclusions on the use
of turbulators on that airfoil.
Thanks,
Bob
Jim
Thanks for sharing all your data on the turbulator testing you did.
Do you think your results can be generalized for most modern sailplane
airfoils? Could I assume that the .26 mm tape is probably better for my
Russia than the thicker tape? In your Russia review article you mentioned
that you used a homemade tape about 1/2 as thick as normally used. What
material did you use?
Chad M., one of the Russia owners in California, is getting ready to do some
extensive turbulator tape testing on his Russia. I think he talked with you
about a Russia article he wrote recently. Between what you have already
learned and what he finds out, we should be able to get a good handle on
using turbulator tape more effectively.
Thanks again!
Jim
"Dick Johnson" <jds...@wans.net> wrote in message
news:45dfc197.02012...@posting.google.com...
Caracole
Personally, it is easy to use my pinking shears to cut the zig-zag
mylar, but it takes two passes. For the boys, they prefer the
Dymo labelers, it just gets boring punching out all those
periods. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .
particularly if you have to calibrate them for the depth of
the punch line.
;-)
Cindy
"Al" <asw17...@bigwings.org> wrote in message
news:u50jgn5...@news.supernews.com...
Jim
What kind of mylar material do you start with? How do you glue it on to the
wing?
Thanks,
Jim
"Caracole" <Cara...@ccis.com> wrote in message
news:3c50f6f6$1...@news.antelecom.net...
Al
pay Tim and save yourself hours of frustration getting a straight edge
Al
"Jim" <jimcoo...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:EY648.20844$Xs4.4...@feed.centurytel.net...
Jim
I know that you're right, Al. I just can't help myself. Twice now I've been
only one key stroke away from sending the e-mail to Tim for the Tape.
One of the other Russia owners has now decided to run a set of experiments
with his Russia to see just how much good tape really does. His plan is to
do this in the next month so I've decided to wait to see what he finds out.
I think he plans only to use zig-zag, but it may be interesting to compare
the zig-zag to dimples if he has the time. I'll check to see.
Regards,
Jim
"Al" <asw17...@bigwings.org> wrote in message
news:u52966...@news.supernews.com...
Robert Ehrlich
>
> So many numbers.
>
> Personally, it is easy to use my pinking shears to cut the zig-zag
> mylar, but it takes two passes.
No need for a second pass. Only the leading edge needs the zig-zag cut.
Factories cut both edges in order to use as few mylar as possible and
because the zig-zag cut on the remaining mylar is the leading edge of
another zig-zag strip.
Jim
Thanks! I was going to ask if the backside zig-zag served a purpose.
Jim
"Robert Ehrlich" <Robert....@inria.fr> wrote in message
news:3C51E013...@inria.fr...
Dick Johnson
the flat Zig-Zag type, and I tend to agree with him. However, the ZZ
type are easier to make, and their heights are easier to control. In
my opinion the turbulator height and location are critical to the
success of their installation, and many current sailplanes have either
excessively tall turbulators, or they are incorrectly located. That
kind of an installation can lead to an unwanted drag increase, rather
than the desired drag decrease. My criteria are to use the smallest
turbulator height and most aft location that will successfully
eliminate the separation bubble.
First one should make an oil flow test flight to find:
1. Is there a significantly large, say >1 inch in width, separation
bubble that can benefit by a turbulator installation? My Ventus had
only a relatively small bubble, and after all of my work I only
improved its L/D by about one half point.
2. Where is the leading edge of that separation bubble located, at the
various wing span stations?
If indeed a significantly separation bubble is found to exist, then
attach a candidate turbulator to the wing surface, about ½ inches
ahead of the bubble leading edge. Then re-fly the oil test to see if
the separation bubble is really eliminated. If it is not, then either
increase the turbulator height, or move it forward another half inch,
and re-test.
I think the best way to fabricate wing turbulators is to use 3/8 or
½ inch wide of common Dymo labeling tape, and cut it down the middle
with pinking shears. That way a $5 roll of tape will provide 24 feet
of good turbulator. Only the leading edge needs the ZZ pattern, and
the straight trailing edges seem to work just as well as a ZZ trailing
edge. The basic Dymo tapes are about .26 mm (.010 in) thick, and that
is what I basically use on my Ventus; mounted on the wing bottom
surfaces at .80 chord. The Dymo's adhesive is excellent, but clean the
adhering wing surfaces well with acetone, or the equivalent, before
applying any tapes, if you want them to adhere well.
If a greater turbulator height is required, and that is likely with
larger chord wings, then apply a layer of ½ inch wide Scotch or
vinyl assembly tape to the wing surface, upon which the above
described ZZ tape can be applied. The common vinyl electrical tape is
about .18 mm (.007 in) thick, and I think most Scotch tapes are about
.10 mm (.004 in) thick.
Caracole
I have respected your work mightily for more than
a couple of decades. For those few who are seriously
looking to benefit from prep work, you have provided
them with accurate information.
I now almost regret that readers here couldn't
hear the smile in my post about the
'girls' with sewing scissors and the
'guys' with Dymo labelers making perfect dimples.
I find entirely too many new-to-a-glider owners that think
they can get whomping performance increases by
sticking stuff all over their boundary layer.... when
they don't hear the part about placement sensitivity nor
handling dangers when tapes lift, etc.
I would so rather they invested the energy into practicing
accuracy landings into simulated pea-patches around the
insides of their home field, or spent some time with a
good X-C CFI for thermaling skills review, to try to
"increase their performance."
There is more percentage of return for those hours
and dollars invested than in the sticky tape. But then again,
perhaps we started this thread discussing how to save
a few bucks making turbulators....
Did I tell the one about the 1-26 new owner who taped
cardboard fairings into root fillets and round the skid and gear?
I could snail mail him for templates......
Nah, I'm leaving the thread again.
Cindy B
"Dick Johnson" <jds...@wans.net> wrote in message
news:45dfc197.02012...@posting.google.com...
Jim
> I would so rather they invested the energy into practicing
> accuracy landings into simulated pea-patches around the
> insides of their home field, or spent some time with a
> good X-C CFI for thermaling skills review, to try to
> "increase their performance."
>
> There is more percentage of return for those hours
> and dollars invested than in the sticky tape.
Cindy, I couldn't agree with you more, but I don't think that practicing (to
fly better and more safely) and putting energy into learning about and
tweaking a glider (to possibly make it fly better) are mutually exclusive.
I really get a kick out of a low-payoff project like this mostly because I
learn so much about the mechanics of gliding from them. In the end I may
learn enough to decide not to even put turbulators on my glider, but
whatever I decide, I'll end up knowing a lot more about the equipment when
I'm done.
Just by posting the original question I (we all) have heard from kind folks
like yourself who often have decades of gliding experience. What a terrific
way to learn. Just look at the list of people who have contributed to this
thread and their qualifications.
Is this a great sport or what,
Thanks to you all,
Jim