Pawnee with windows open-any problem?
Dennis
One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
Please either post here of email. To email, remove the "x" from the
email address.
Thomas Wideman
Dennis wrote:
> One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
> to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
I believe the Aircraft Flight Manual states that the windows should be
closed, as flying with the windows open reduces the climb rate.
I can vouch for that, as I tried to open one once during flight to release
a trapped headset cord. I could not pull the window shut again and had to
let it go; it positioned itself in the full downward (open) position, and
the climb rate went to heck. Naturally, it occurred on a 4000' tow with a
heavy two-seater in tow, in accordance with Murphy's law. FWIW, I didn't
get much cooling from having it open.
A note: I think the manual says "should" not "shall" which leaves it open
(no pun intended) for interpretation. Check the book for your airplane,
but, overall, I would advise against it; personal opinion only, actual
mileage may vary, etc.
Regards,
Tom Wideman
Chief Tow Pilot
Texas Soaring Association
Midlothian, TX
garyo
Dennis <xma...@aracnet.com> wrote in article
<5r4708$5hh$1...@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>...
> One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
> to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
>
> Please either post here of email. To email, remove the "x" from the
> email address.
>
I am not sure if it is legal but if you do fly without the windows take
them off
the aircraft as our club had a towpilot killed in flight by a broken front
hinge
which allowed the window to pivot in the airstream and slam him in the head
John Applegate
On 23 Jul 1997 06:06:00 GMT, Dennis <xma...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
>to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
Some Pawnees are placarded against it. But I've flown and sprayed in
Pawnees with one or both windows open. The max load decreases a bit
but the aircraft handles just fine. It gets real windy at about 35
knots but quiets down at flying speed.
There's No Place Like Cloud Base
Rob.L.M. Schutte
We have been flying with the windows "removed" with no problems. The
manual does state that the windows be closed. If the windows are not
removed they will flap and you will be replacing the skin in the sides. Be
aware though you will be flying at a rate of speed that does not make it
healthy to get your arm too far extended .. "keep head and arms inside
aircraft at all times". What you will notice is the temp changes with
altitude.
It akes about 10 minutes to remove and store and about the same to replace
them.
Rob.L.M. Schutte
> One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
> to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
>
We at Black Forest Soaring Society in Colorado have been towing with the
windows removed. It takes about 10 minutes to remove (and store) them.
About the same time to reinstall. Note that your arms etc should be kept
inside that aircraft in flight and you will need to make sure any loose
items(there really should not be) are secured. Tow sheets, POH, aircraft
certificates will be lost otherwise.
About the only things you will notice is the temp changes with altitude and
a more wind noise, prop sounds different also.
We tried it based on a comment from a ag pilot ...
Rob Schutte
BFSS
and...@oldham.gpsemi.com
I've never tried flying the pawnee with the windows open myself as I
wouldn't want my glasses to blow off, though I know a couple of people
who do fly it with the windows open without any problems. I find on
taxiing that the doors tend to bang on the fuselage side if left open and
I guess that may eventually crack the perspex windows.
Personally I find the roof ventilator is the best cooling device on a hot
day. I don't know what version of pawnee your using as I think only the D
variant has this method of cockpit ventilation.
Andy Wright
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On 23 Jul 1997 06:06:00 GMT, Dennis <xma...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
>to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
>
>Please either post here of email. To email, remove the "x" from the
>email address.
I've crop dusted in the 150 and 235 Pawnees for more than 7000 hours
back 25+ years ago in temperatures well over 100 f. I opened a window
ONLY ONCE - in an emergency. Tom Wideman has the facts right in his
message to you.
P.S. I do remember seeing a\c in a Pawnee back in that era.
Caracole
Dennis <xma...@aracnet.com> wrote in article
<5r4708$5hh$1...@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>...
> One of our club tow pilots would like to know if there is any reason not
> to fly the Pawnee with the window(s) open when it is hot out.
>
> Please either post here of email. To email, remove the "x" from the
> email address.
>
The following is an excerpt from the Type Certificate Data Sheet 2A10 for
the Pa-25.
Note that the aircraft must be placarded for "windows closed" during
flight.
Compliance with aircraft placards is not optional. M Eiler
NOTE 2 The following placards must be displayed:
(a) In front and in clear view of the pilot:
(1) On Model PA-25, S/N 25-1 through 25-1999:
"THIS AIRPLANE MUST BE OPERATED IN THE NORMAL
CATEGORY IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE OPERATING LIMITATIONS
STATED IN THE FORM OF PLACARDS, MARKINGS, AND MANUAL.
ACROBATIC MANEUVERS (INCLUDING SPINS) PROHIBITED. FOR
RESTRICTED CATEGORY OPERATION, REFER TO ADDITIONAL
LIMITATIONS."
(2) On Model PA-25-235, S/N 25-02, 25-2000 through
25-2761:
"THIS AIRPLANE MUST BE OPERATED IN THE RESTRICTED
CATEGORY IN COMPLIANCE WITH OPERATING LIMITATIONS
STATED IN THE FORM OF PLACARDS AND MARKINGS.
ACROBATIC MANEUVERS (INCLUDING SPINS) PROHIBITED."
Page 6
(3) On Model PA-25-235, S/N 25-2762 through 25-4414; and
on Models PA-25-235 and PA-25-260, S/N 25-4415
through 25-5521, and 25-7305522 through 25-8156024:
"THIS AIRPLANE MUST BE OPERATED IN THE RESTRICTED
CATEGORY IN COMPLIANCE WITH OPERATING LIMITATIONS
STATED IN THE FORM OF PLACARDS AND MARKINGS.
ACROBATIC MANEUVERS (INCLUDING SPINS) PROHIBITED. FOR
NORMAL CATEGORY OPERATION, REFER TO FLIGHT MANUAL."
(b) In cabin accessible to pilot for all Restricted Category
PA-25, PA-25-235 and PA-25-260, display "OPERATING
LIMITATIONS - RESTRICTED CATEGORY ONLY" placard in
accordance with Piper Drawing No. 61631.
(c) On hopper: Model PA-25: "800 lb. maximum"
Model PA-25-235: "1200 lb. maximum"
Model Pa-25-260: "1200 lb. maximum"
(d) Models PA-25-235 and PA-25-260 - On checklist above
instrument panel:
"WINDOWS CLOSED"
--
Caracole Soaring
22570 Airport Way
California City, Ca 93505
Phone & Fax 619-373-1019
E-mail Cara...@ccis.com
http://members.aol.com/soarca/caracole.htm
Dan Marotta
We routinely fly our Pawnee with the doors off (in summer) the only
problem is when it rains!
Dan Marotta
LS-6a, 5J
Chief Tow Pilot, Black Forest Soaring Society
Gary Osoba
I have very few tows behind a Pawnee and don't have a manual available
to comment intelligently about operating limitations.
However, as I recall, the AS Indicator is static ported into the
cockpit (not a good arrangement), resulting in some rather inaccurate
readings from time to time. Those towing with windows open should be
aware that any suction created thereby would further exacerbate the
situation and lead to even higher indicated airspeeds than are
actually occurring.
Could become quite important when towing someone into rough conditons
fully loaded at 12 lbs./sq.ft.
Best Regards,
Gary Osoba
Gary Osoba
I have very few tows behind a Pawnee and don't have a manual
Alter E188
>Personally I find the roof ventilator is the best cooling device on a hot
>day. I don't know what version of pawnee your using as I think only the D
>variant has this method of cockpit ventilation.
>
>Andy Wright
>
>
Hello, all. This may not exactly be true...we, in Calistoga, have an
'A' model with the roof vents...
One directly overhead, which is nice, and another behind the pilot which
blows much welcomed air on the pilots neck and back. These are both very
effective ventilation devices...As far as the windows open issue, I've
never tried it on purpose, but I've had a window blow open on take-off.
(I know, I should've checked it...nuff' said.) The performance does not
seem to be appreciably diminished, even on a 100 degree day, launching
downwind, with a 2-32 at Gross....(use permit restrictions, y'all, we
don't do it to be cute). However, we don't open the windows as a
practice, the vents in the roof seem to be effective enough as it is.
Just not enough additional benefit , the air seems to stream by outside
without taking a venture inside.
My $00.02 worth.
Dan Flynn
Commercial Pilot ASEL, Glider
and what it says below.
Dan Flynn
EMT/Firefighter
Calistoga FD
Calistoga, CA
"EMS in the Wine Country"
Jean Richard
Caracole wrote:
> The following is an excerpt from the Type Certificate Data Sheet 2A10 for
> the Pa-25.
>
> Note that the aircraft must be placarded for "windows closed" during
> flight.
>
Right ! We have a Pawnee and it is placarded for windows closed.
J. Richard
Jean Richard
Gary Osoba wrote:
> However, as I recall, the AS Indicator is static ported into the
> cockpit (not a good arrangement), resulting in some rather inaccurate
> readings from time to time.
Such is the case for our Pawnee. But the pitot is the same that the PA-18,
which has a static with the pitot (under the wing). Does anybody use the
pitot static instead of the cockpit static ?
J. Richard
Sam Fly
Jean Richard <j.ri...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Gary Osoba wrote:
>J. Richard
At TSA we have two Pawnee's and the pitot is under the left wing and
static ports on the fuselage midway between the wing and horizontal
stab. This is the factory positions. We still have and 6kt error.
IE the airspeed indicator reads 6 kt low... Every Pawnee I have flown
and been towed by seems to have this error. All will be too slow.
Sam Fly
"7 Fox"
Phil Irvine
Pawnees where the tug had to fly at about 70 Kt indicated for me, in the
glider, to see about 60 Kts.
Phil Irvine
Thomas Wideman
Sam is right that the tow is too slow if you judge it by the Pawnee
airspeed. We have to tow glass with water at about 85mph indicated in the
Pawnee to see about 65kt in the glider. We tow 1-26/2-33's at 65mph,
glass at 75mph, glass w/water at 80-85mph for the speeds to be right. To
pick a bone, I guess you could say it reads fast rather than slow, but the
bottom line is that judging by the Pawnee airspeed will cause the tow to
go too slow.
Tom Wideman
TSA
> >At TSA we have two Pawnee's and the pitot is under the left wing and
> >static ports on the fuselage midway between the wing and horizontal
> >stab. This is the factory positions. We still have and 6kt error.
> >IE the airspeed indicator reads 6 kt low... Every Pawnee I have flown
> >and been towed by seems to have this error. All will be too slow.
> >Sam Fly
Jean Richard
Thomas Wideman wrote:
>
> Sam is right that the tow is too slow if you judge it by the Pawnee
> airspeed. We have to tow glass with water at about 85mph indicated in the
> Pawnee to see about 65kt in the glider. We tow 1-26/2-33's at 65mph,
> glass at 75mph, glass w/water at 80-85mph for the speeds to be right. To
> pick a bone, I guess you could say it reads fast rather than slow, but the
> bottom line is that judging by the Pawnee airspeed will cause the tow to
> go too slow.
>
> Tom Wideman
> TSA
Same observation on our Pawnee. 75 knots on the airspeed indicator is
only 65 knots and even less. The first time I got a tow from it was
with the Grob 102 and I remember I had to radio the towpilot since
I didn't like to be towed at 50 knots in that glider.
Getting static pressure inside the propeller airflow doesn't seem
to be a good idea. Since the pitot is the same as on the Super Cub,
I would like to know if it's possible to use its static port and if
it would give better airspeed reading.
J. Richard
PkSoaring
Our "C" model Pawnee reads about 5mph too fast with the vent open and
10mph with the vent closed.
Our "D" model is more accurate although we haven't checked it closely.
John Duprey
Peak Soaring, Inc.
Fremont County Airport
Colorado, USA
719-784-9536