Slingsby T21 Tandem Tutor info needed.
Rainbow
Due to the great response that I received when I asked for info on the
AS-W19 (thanks, Mitch!), a friend of mine has asked me to post a message
asking for info on the Slingsby T21. I need pictures and/or drawings of the
aircraft, as well as flying impressions, opinions, historical details, etc...
I have been told that the Vintage Sailplane Organisation may be able to help
me in this regard. Does anyone have a web adress or email adress for them? If
so, I would appreciate it very much if you could email it to me.
Thanks in advance,
Keith Harper
Raul Blacksten
father was Philip Wills), he is the founder of the VGC.
Chris Wills
Wings
The Street
Ewelme, Oxon OX10 6HQ
England, UK
Personally, I have flown a T-21 and a friend owns one.
On tow (aero) you feel like you are in a hurricane, but once
off tow, you slow down and there is no wind in the cockpit.
You can talk normally between pilot and passenger. That is, no
shouting necessary.
Handling is something to be desired, but it is a trainer,
afterall. On tow, it is a definate 2 hander, but off tow, it
is a lot lighter on the controls. It is not a difficult glider
to fly at all and is very forgiving, even at 30mph.
My friend and I were flying. He says, "let's do a helicopter
landing." I said "fine, how do you do it?"
He said, slow it up to 30 MPH on final. Trouble is, he did not
tell me what to do to actually land it and we hit hard. No
damage.
Good luck in your search, and I wish you green air!
Raul Blacksten
Archivist
Vintage Sailplane Association (USA)
F L Whiteley
T.21 was the Sedbergh. There are three-view drawings and photos in
Jane's World Sailplanes and Motorgliders by Andrew Coates, copyright
1976, ISBN 0 354 01119 7. Let me know if you have difficulty
locating a copy.
Francis
In article <rainbow.6...@iafrica.com>, Rainbow
(rai...@iafrica.com) writes: >Greetings! >
Ian W Strachan
rai...@iafrica.com "Rainbow" writes:
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> cstatd.cstat.co.za!slipper124150.iafrica.com!rainbow
> From: rai...@iafrica.com (Rainbow)
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> Subject: Slingsby T21 Tandem Tutor info needed.
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:54:01
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snip
>
> info on the Slingsby T21. I need pictures and/or drawings of the
> aircraft, as well as flying impressions, opinions, historical details, etc...
>
Your title referred to the Tandem Tutor which is not the Slingsby T-21 but
is the T-31, being a tandem version of the so-called "Mark 2" Slingsby Tutor
(on which I gained my C certificate many moons ago). The T-31 was also called
the "Mark 3" by the UK Air Training Corps who operated it for many years. It
is, I am afraid, a bit of a brick when fully loaded, but is was designed
purely for circuit training and not for soaring.
The T-21 was also called the Sedburgh by the ATC; this is a mis-spelling
of Sedbergh which is a place in the North of England and the site of a
famous private school. The T-21 is a side-by side high winged
open cockpit trainer good in a thermal but somewhat not so good between
thermals by modern standards. A few have been converted to closed-cockpit
and I even flew one which had an elevator trim tab! They were the backbone
of UK two-seat training for many years until other machines such as the
Schleicher K-13 and glass two-seaters arrived on the scene. One problem
with the high wing and low-speed airfoil was that they were very prone
to being `blown over' on the ground in winds of 15 knots or over, and a
lot were lost or damaged that way.
Chris Wills at the UK branch of the Vintage Gliding Club is the
right person to contact. If you do not get his address from other mail,
write to him c/o the Vintage Gliding Club, Lasham Gliding Centre,
Alton, Hampshire GU34 5SS, England. Fax +44 1256 381 415.
At Lasham the Vintage enthusiasts have flying versions of both a T-21 and
a T-31, and in the summer the T-21 is often seen local soaring. The T-31
is much lower performance and generally can be seen `tobogganing' (ie
taking off, gliding down, and landing, taking off, gliding down, and landing,
taking off, gliding down, and landing, etc)
er, we do have more modern gliders at Lasham too .......
--
Ian Strachan
i...@ukiws.demon.co.uk Bentworth Hall West, Bentworth
Tel: +44 1420 564 195 Alton, Hampshire GU34 5LA
Fax: +44 1420 563 140 England
------------------------------------------------------------
stephen j beaver
>Greetings!
>
<SNIP>
The T21 was operated by the Brittish Air Training Corps. for about nine thousand years.
The ATC taught cadets to solo standard in one weekend using winch launches and a lot of
outrageous short-cuts that took years to un-learn if a student ever wanted to fly for real.
I flew a T21 several times and remember that on one flight, during extraordinary conditions,
I was able to keep it aloft for nearly 40 mins. from an 800' launch. I became an instant
celebrety.
Sorry I can't remember much other than that.
The Vintage Soaring Soc. is close to me in Lovettsville, VA (540) ??? ????. Try information
for Jan Scott, the proprietor.
Jim Kellett
DIFFERENT organiztion from the Vintage Glider Club - can be reached at
7210...@compuserve.com
Jan's a goldmine of vintage lore...he's owned and flown both the T-21 and
T-31 (and T-28!!) and is also the President of the National Soaring
Museum.
Jim Kellett
Jeffry Stetson
>The T-21 was very easy to `keep aloft' in a thermal and so OK for local
>soaring. People have flown them for hours particularly when the wind is
>not strong. The difficulty is the low L/D (about 1:17) and high drag at
>anything over 50 knots when trying to fly cross-country.
>
>Don't knock the T-21, it was a fine training and soaring glider. The T-31
>is another matter ...
I've, by choice, only flown the T-21 twice, both times in Kenya off winch.
The first flight I thought I noticed such a lack of roll authority that
I couldn't right the ship in turbulence. ie, a wing would lift and full
opposite aileron wouldn't stop it. After landing, I checked everything
over to determine that the ailerons were indeed still connected to the
stick. I couldn't believe that any production glider could be that bad,
so I went up again, resolving to correct my obviously deficient technique.
By then conditions had strengthened to the degree that even pointing the boat
in the general direction of the landing field was problematical. After
getting out I promised never to set foot in such a marginal machine again.
Maybe it's "OK" in calm air, but seeking out calm air is hardly the point
of soaring, is it? BTW, after abandoning the T-21, I had a delightful
week in an old K-13, at one point abandoning a climb (started off the
winch) at 22,000 feet in wave due to lack of oxygen supply.
--
Jeffry Stetson ... Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane
EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA
Mooney M20E "Superduper 21"
Salto H-101 "Shiva - The Cosmic Dancer"
Ian W Strachan
sci...@globalcom.net "stephen j beaver" writes:
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> From: sci...@globalcom.net (stephen j beaver)
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> Subject: Re: Slingsby T21 Tandem Tutor info needed.
> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 14:44:14 GMT
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> rai...@iafrica.com (Rainbow) wrote:
> >Greetings!
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> The T21 was operated by the Brittish Air Training Corps. for about nine
> thousand years.
Just a slight exaggeration. From about 1952 to the advent of glass in
the UK ATC in about 1986.
>
> The ATC taught cadets to solo standard in one weekend using winch launches and
> a lot of
> outrageous short-cuts that took years to un-learn if a student ever wanted to
> fly for real.
Cadets were not soloed from scratch in a weekend. What happened was that
Air Cadets (like me) would attend an ATC Gliding School over several
weekends, and in the winter, many weekends. Finally, Cadets were sent on
three solos for their BGA A and B certificates. As that was the sole object,
any pre-solo training concerned with follow-on flying or wider matters such
as soaring, was not part of the ATC course. Launches to solo were therefore
substantially less than at soaring clubs.
What was required when an ex-ATC glider pilot trained on the T-21 and T-31
joined a soaring club was that he (all male in those days) naturally
could not be sent solo straight away but had to have a course of
follow-on instruction to cover aspects which he would meet in future
solo flying at the club.
Also, many soaring clubs in the 1950s and later were at `awkward' sites with
small fields, or on ridges, whereas the ATC generally flew from large
RAF airfields when the RAF powered aircraft were not flying.
I think that puts it in slightly better perspective. The original
statements above may be amusing but are far from the facts. The UK ATC
was, and is, a creditable and well-organised flying training organisation,
but with different objectives to those of soaring clubs. They now operate
glass two-seat gliders based, I think, on the Twin Astir, and Grob 109
motor gliders.
>
> I flew a T21 several times and remember that on one flight, during
> extraordinary conditions,
> I was able to keep it aloft for nearly 40 mins. from an 800' launch. I became
> an instant
> celebrety.
The T-21 was very easy to `keep aloft' in a thermal and so OK for local
soaring. People have flown them for hours particularly when the wind is
not strong. The difficulty is the low L/D (about 1:17) and high drag at
anything over 50 knots when trying to fly cross-country.
Don't knock the T-21, it was a fine training and soaring glider. The T-31
is another matter ...
--
Christoph Mertens
rai...@iafrica.com schrieb neulich 'n paar Zeilen, dazu musste ich auch
was schreiben:
> Betreff : Slingsby T21 Tandem Tutor info needed.
You are talking about two different planes:
The T21 is a side by side double seater, the Tandem Tutor is the T31, a
double seater with the seats one after another.
...
> AS-W19 (thanks, Mitch!), a friend of mine has asked me to post a message
> asking for info on the Slingsby T21. I need pictures and/or drawings of the
> aircraft, as well as flying impressions, opinions, historical details,
> etc...
I have flown the T31 and I have helped reparing a T21 and seen three of
them flying last year.
The T31 is an overloaded single seater as it got the wings of the Tutor.
It flys like that. In the air it feels like normal but the landing speed
is rather high. It just stops flying. But even though it makes fun.
The T21 seems to fly like a feather, with nearly no speed. It was told to
be the nicest double seater at all. (The nicest to fly is the Kranich III
from Focke-Wulf) The damaged one was landed in front of a fence, so that
the pilot layed one wing on the ground and turned around. Doing that, the
skid got a side force, so that the front fixing broke off the fuselage. We
opened the bottom of the fuselage, (found some plywood, stamped 1942, even
though the plane was much younger) and repared it within three days
according to German standards. The whole construction seems to be rather
stable but you need two self standing ladders to hold the wing ends while
rigging.
Both planes are hold together by lots of little bolts, which tend to be
put in the wrong place. So mark them clearly.
>
> I have been told that the Vintage Sailplane Organisation may be able to help
> me in this regard. Does anyone have a web adress or email adress for them?
> If so, I would appreciate it very much if you could email it to me.
I am a member of the VGC (Vintage Glider Club), but I don't know any e-
mail adress or so, just snail-mail to:
Chris Wills
Wings
The Street
Ewelme, Oxon OX10 6HQ
UK
He is very friendly and will surely help you, perhaps by sending you
adresses of owners etc.
If you want to get some photos of both planes, send me your snail-mail
adress. I will send some to you.
Have a good time.
Ciao, C.
--
Christoph Mertens Blahfaselzisch, Peine
## CrossPoint v3.02 ##
Ian W Strachan
ste...@nscl.msu.edu "Jeffry Stetson" writes:
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> From: ste...@nscl.msu.edu (Jeffry Stetson)
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> Subject: Re: Slingsby T21 info needed.
> Date: 3 Jan 1996 18:25:16 GMT
> Organization: NSCL/Cyclotron Laboratory
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> In article <820674...@ukiws.demon.co.uk>, I...@ukiws.demon.co.uk says...
>
> >The T-21 was very easy to `keep aloft' in a thermal and so OK for local
> >soaring. People have flown them for hours particularly when the wind is
> >not strong. The difficulty is the low L/D (about 1:17) and high drag at
> >anything over 50 knots when trying to fly cross-country.
> >
> >Don't knock the T-21, it was a fine training and soaring glider. The T-31
> >is another matter ...
>
> I've, by choice, only flown the T-21 twice, both times in Kenya off winch.
> The first flight I thought I noticed such a lack of roll authority that
> I couldn't right the ship in turbulence.
snip
> After
> getting out I promised never to set foot in such a marginal machine again.
> Maybe it's "OK" in calm air
snip
Yes, it's an old design, and in the UK's thermals the roll control is OK.
It was not designed for the tropics!
Derek Piggott once flew a T-21 in cloud to nearly 20,000 feet, so you had
better ask him how he kept angle of bank safe!
I instructed on it for many years until better gliders for instruction
came along, notably the Schleicher K-13.
I do not fly T-21s any more either, but in its day in the UK it was the
backbone of club instruction, and many are still safely flying. See other
postings on r.a.s. There are many worse old glider designs than the T-21 ....
John Wright
wrote:
>The T21 was operated by the Brittish Air Training Corps. for about nine thousand years.
>
>outrageous short-cuts that took years to un-learn if a student ever wanted to fly for real.
>
>I was able to keep it aloft for nearly 40 mins. from an 800' launch. I became an instant
>celebrety.
Rumour has it around Booker GC that many years ago, while an instructor
with the Air Training Corps, the illustrious Chris Rollings was ejected
from said organisation for soaring - it being strictly against their ethos.
For non-UK readers, Chris Rollings is the BGA National Coach, the first
person (with Chris Pullen) to do a 1000 km flight in the UK and holder of
the British two seater height record. The ATC now fly Grob 109's!
John S. Wright, another ex-ATC cadet who had to unlearn everything.
Mike Cohler
>In article <4cbgmf$d...@head.globalcom.net>
> sci...@globalcom.net "stephen j beaver" writes:
>
lines deleted
>The T-21 was very easy to `keep aloft' in a thermal and so OK for local
>soaring. People have flown them for hours particularly when the wind is
>not strong. The difficulty is the low L/D (about 1:17) and high drag at
>anything over 50 knots when trying to fly cross-country.
>
>Don't knock the T-21, it was a fine training and soaring glider. The T-31
There are still a fair number of T-21's around in the UK. We have one
at our club, and it seems to still be doing a fine service taking
visitors up on their first flights, virtually every weekend. In winter
when the "normal" gliders are having their canopies misting up in the icy
weather, the old "barge" is still sailing up the winch with its
enthusiastic pilot and visitor well wrapped up against the blast from the
wind across the open cockpit during the sideslipped approach. It may also
be seen behind the Pawnee, with the pilot reaching well forward to keep
the nose down during the tow, and hair streaming rearward in the airflow
until the release at several thousand feet. It has also been seen up
at 6000 or even 7000 feet in wave, and has been known to make a 60km
cross country flight which involves a flight time of around 4 hours !!
Yep, the old barge at Rufforth is well used. So is the barge at
Talgarth, and a variety of other UK clubs too.
Mike
Raul Blacksten
never noticed any such problem flying a T-21 in the California
desert, or has the owner (a friend) reported any problems in
that regard.
Raul Blacksten
Vintage Sailplane Association
Archivis
Mike Heishman
learned to fly in the T-21 at the Syerston (sp?) Airfield (near
Notingham, "Four Counties Gliding Club"; FAI Cert.#71219)
My fondest memory is of 'thermaling' for the first time in that
airframe!!! (BTW my instructor said the 'Air' was wrong for it,
but with my strong desire to 'fly', it worked.)
I do not remember any bad char. of the T-21, except that it was
hard to keep clean and the canopy banged my head (I'am 6'2!)
(I was a member of the RAFGSA at that time, and remember making
sure that I was the FIRST one awake, so I could set the planes up
so I could have the 1st and the LAST flights of the day...OHHhh
the memories of the last flights, sunset, calm air, minimum
sink.. and a Slooooowwwwwwww circle to watch the secenary go
by....)
Later the Blanik, k-13, K-18 ,kA6 and the Pic-20..
Upon returnig to the STATES, flying became too expensive...Alas..
only my FAI GC, logbook and memories remain...
Mike H. (br...@tcac.com)
--
Disclaimer: " I know what I'm doing. My computer doesn't ! "
John Wright
>As an American Serviceman (USAF) posted to the UK in 1977-79, I
>learned to fly in the T-21 at the Syerston (sp?) Airfield (near
>Notingham, "Four Counties Gliding Club"; FAI Cert.#71219)
>
>My fondest memory is of 'thermaling' for the first time in that
>airframe!!! (BTW my instructor said the 'Air' was wrong for it,
>but with my strong desire to 'fly', it worked.)
>
>I do not remember any bad char. of the T-21, except that it was
>hard to keep clean and the canopy banged my head (I'am 6'2!)
>
Most T-21's didn't have canopies, I have flown uncanopied ones many times
in the winter months, which is OK on the winch but a bit cold and draughty
on aerotow!
I have been told that the T-21 wing was designed without a very stiff
leading edge D box, as you get in more modern machines like the K-13. This,
or the very large chord, makes the wing vulnerable to twisting, so that
aileron control is reduced at high airspeeds, as the forces imposed by the
deflection of the ailerons are opposed by the twist of the wing. Or is this
an urban legend :-) ?
John S. Wright
CULP USA
Sounds like it was great. Thanks for sharing the sundown memories. I see
the scenery with you.
I urge you to try the Texas sunsets too. I don't know where you live,
but encourage you to contact SSA at Email: 74521,1...@CompuServe.com
for name of your SSA STATE GOVERNOR for
Texas. I'll bet that he can direct you to a club with relatively
inexpensive operations,
especially if they are using ground launch methods (autotow or winch).
You may well be able to get back into the sky---and the Texas sky is truly
among the world's best especially if you are away from the coast. But,
even Houston has active soaring clubs.
The SSA Convention is Feb28-Mar 2 at Huntsville Hilton with a reception at
the rocket center. You can get info about convention on line from SSA
too.
Occasionally I go to England. Next time my mission is to fly off winch in
one of the T21s or similar so I can see that beautiful English countryside
from the sky.
Keep sharing your visions with us.
Keep it up.
Jim Culp USA Email to me at cul...@netdoor.com
SSA State Governor
Mississippi
Barrie Beesley
>Occasionally I go to England. Next time my mission is to fly off winch in
>one of the T21s or similar so I can see that beautiful English countryside
>from the sky.
>
Come and fly with us at Cambridge University Gliding Club, we've
got a T21 called Bluebell and she's been in the club since new. She
was the two seater trainer but now is only used on days when it's
not too windy for fun flights. She's fat and slow but we wouldn't
part with her.
The club is based at Gransden Lodge Airfield about ten miles out of
Cambridge. We have a 240HP Supercat winch that launches Bluebell on
a few revs. over tick-over.
Barrie Beesley