Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

[Paul Agnew]

Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1

Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.

Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.

Paul Agnew
Jupiter, FL

[waltco...@aol.com]

Condolences to all involved.

While it is near impossible to engineer out all the potential for such an occurrence in towing there are things that should be done to all tow planes to mitigate these conditions. I'll not get into them but those who know me know what I think. While training is important, training should never take a back seat to giving the tow pilot every chance in the world to escape with his or her life.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.

[stu8...@gmail.com]

> While it is near impossible to engineer out all the potential for such an occurrence in towing there are things that should be done to all tow planes to mitigate these conditions.

Aside from eliminating human reaction time with an elevator at stop triggering an instant tow release, I'm not sure how to fix low level kiting at the tow. That would cause more problems.

On the other end of the rope, we have a separate sign off for aero, winch and motor launch. For me, it would have been useful if there was an additional for CG which requires a specific test to verify an understanding of kiting.

(RAS is all about fixing the problem before we know what the problem is. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB says about this in terms of mitigations.)

Definitely a sad day.

[waltco...@aol.com]

>
> On the other end of the rope, we have a separate sign off for aero, winch and motor launch. For me, it would have been useful if there was an additional for CG which requires a specific test to verify an understanding of kiting.
>
> (RAS is all about fixing the problem before we know what the problem is. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB says about this in terms of mitigations.)
>
> Definitely a sad day.

I am not the most experienced tow pilot on this site but I do have 7000 tows under my belt. I have survived a couple of kiting incidents, one at about 350 feet and the student didn't release. Had the rope not broken I would have been dead, the Schweizer release and associated release handle were useless for a couple of reasons. I'll not elaborate, those who know me know what I have to say regarding this. As for RAX being all about fixing problems....SHIRLEY you jest and yes I called you Shirley.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[Nick Kennedy]

Watching that video of the wreck is shocking.
Its crazy how quickly aero towing can go sideways.
Thoughts and prayers to all involved.
Nick T
Ex tow pilot.

[Tom BravoMike]

We all know how the self-release works on the glider side at winch launching: at a certain angle the rope puts a pressure on a lever which causes the release. Isn't it technically simple to have a similar solution on the tow plane side, a lever above the rope, which pressed at kiting would release the rope immediately? Where am I wrong?

[WB]

There have been some proposed engineering solutions, and even prototypes built of automatic tow releases to prevent kiting accidents. I believe the main problem has been that the difference in the angle of the rope relative to the release between normal tow and kiting is very small. Also, I think there was pushback from insurance companies regarding anything that might cause a premature release.

[Hartley Falbaum]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:

I do not know the specifics of this accident. But it is well known that the Schweitzer hook is vulnerable. The release mounting on the floor is hard or impossible to reach is a sever kiting. This has been hashed about in r.a.s. for years. I would be petrified to fly behind a "automatic" release.

Hartley Falbaum
Loganville, GA.

[tow...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:13:53 AM UTC-7, stu8...@gmail.com wrote:
> Aside from eliminating human reaction time with an elevator at stop triggering an instant tow release, I'm not sure how to fix low level kiting at the tow. That would cause more problems.
>

In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to keep his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be done, with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.

[Waveguru]

Condolences to everybody in this tragedy. I am curious as to how many hours the glider pilot had? It says in the report that he landed safely. He should be charged with a crime.

Boggs

[Paul Agnew]

Hearing that this possibly involved a canopy popping open.

I'm sure the glider pilot feels horrible for this.

PA

[Ireallyknowwhathappened]

No details on this tragedy, yet we have those who assume they know....

An anonymous friend of an anonymous witness who said he might be wrong in what he saw

More than one blaming it on the towplane's release mechanism

The towpilot should have had his hand on the release

...and the best, a 3-in-1 judge, jury and witness... Glider pilot's fault and needs to go straight to jail

[waltco...@aol.com]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:37:28 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> Condolences to everybody in this tragedy. I am curious as to how many hours the glider pilot had? It says in the report that he landed safely. He should be charged with a crime.
>
> Boggs

I made a couple of calls to family members who are legal experts or so they tell me. Only one answered and my aviation attorney seems to be sequestered deep in the forests of Massachusetts until this plague passes. Gliders/soaring seems to be considered a sport and under the legal doctrine of "assumption of the risk" I am informed it is quite difficult to bring a charge of any kind unless it can be proven that an unreasonable/purposeful act was committed. I guess they consider the tow pilot to be a participant and is assuming a degree of risk. Of course it all depends on the lawyers who get involved and the local charging authority. Some can sue the sun for going down and the tide for going out, welcome to America.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[waltco...@aol.com]

> In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to keep his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be done, with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.

This is assuming that all Pawnees have a handle NOT down on the floor but (as I insisted at one time) up where the pilot can grab it while in the upright and seated position. I know that many have been modified, I've been contacted by many tow pilots who told me it took some persuading but finally their club/commercial operation saw the light. I will also tell you that kiting incidents are not all slowly evolving types where the glider pilot has simply inserted their head up their ass for a few moments. Some are sudden and quite violent. In my last kiting experience even if I had my hand on the handle (which was down on the floor and difficult to reach) I would have been nose down more than 60 degrees and pointed at the ground before I could have reacted. At a low enough altitude this will be fatal the vast majority of the time.

[Karl Striedieck]

There are a few things that will make the Schweizer release a safer mechanism.

1 Inverting the release will eliminate all friction in the actuation.

2 Tow plane's release lever should be instantly accessible and have a high leverage configuration.

3 A careful dressing of the movable part of the release so that it is slightly curved where the capture slides off. This eliminates the increased force that the sliding capture generates as it starts sliding aft.

4 Tow pilots should include in their daily checklist a what if regarding rapidly getting rid of a kiting glider: where's the handle and which way does it go.

[Ian Lane]

Terribly sad when this sort of accident happens.

As one who has experienced an upset in a Pawnee, albeit at about 1500', I
can confirm how frighteningly quickly it happens. On that occasion I was
able to dump the glider (an ASH25) and recover safely. The glider pilot
admitted afterwards that he had been re-tuning his radio whilst on tow, and
had lost sight of me!!!

The release mechanism on our Pawnee, and on others I've flown in the UK,
is a cable and pulley system whereby the said cable runs vertically from
the the cockpit roof to just above the throttle lever and is really easy to
grab in an emergency - no fumbling for a knob or lever.

A study of towplane upsets was done quite a few years ago , following a
series of accidents in the UK. Certain factors were found to increase the
risks:

High wing glider

Towing on the belly hook

Inexperienced glider pilot, and particularly those that usually flew from a
winch-only site

Schweizer hook on towplane

Turbulent conditions

..and often a combination of most, or all, of these - a case of the holes
in the Swiss cheese lining up.

At 12:27 11 May 2020, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to
keep

>=

>his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be
done,

>=

>with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.
>
>This is assuming that all Pawnees have a handle NOT down on the floor but

>(=

>as I insisted at one time) up where the pilot can grab it while in the

>upri=

>ght and seated position. I know that many have been modified, I've been

>co=

>ntacted by many tow pilots who told me it took some persuading but
finally

>=

>their club/commercial operation saw the light. I will also tell you that

>k=

>iting incidents are not all slowly evolving types where the glider pilot

>ha=

>s simply inserted their head up their ass for a few moments. Some are

>sudde=

>n and quite violent. In my last kiting experience even if I had my hand

>on=

> the handle (which was down on the floor and difficult to reach) I would

>ha=

>ve been nose down more than 60 degrees and pointed at the ground before I

>c=

>ould have reacted. At a low enough altitude this will be fatal the vast

>ma=
>jority of the time. =20

[Bob Youngblood]

The release on the floor is a huge contributing factor in many aspects of not being able to release during a kiting emergency. I will further state that the handle on the floor may be a bigger problem than the Schweizer release itself. The design of the newer pacific release negates the possibility of the connect ring going forward which may impede release. I have configured both of my Pawnee's so that the release handle is within easy accessibility and it has a long arm that would contribute to less load to engage the release.

[jpg...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:15:05 PM UTC+1, Ian Lane wrote:
> Terribly sad when this sort of accident happens.
>
> As one who has experienced an upset in a Pawnee, albeit at about 1500', I
> can confirm how frighteningly quickly it happens. On that occasion I was
> able to dump the glider (an ASH25) and recover safely. The glider pilot
> admitted afterwards that he had been re-tuning his radio whilst on tow, and
> had lost sight of me!!!
>
> The release mechanism on our Pawnee, and on others I've flown in the UK,
> is a cable and pulley system whereby the said cable runs vertically from
> the the cockpit roof to just above the throttle lever and is really easy to
> grab in an emergency - no fumbling for a knob or lever.
>
> A study of towplane upsets was done quite a few years ago , following a
> series of accidents in the UK. Certain factors were found to increase the
> risks:
>
> High wing glider
>
> Towing on the belly hook
>
> Inexperienced glider pilot, and particularly those that usually flew from a
> winch-only site
>
> Schweizer hook on towplane
>
> Turbulent conditions
>
> ..and often a combination of most, or all, of these - a case of the holes
> in the Swiss cheese lining up.
>
>

I bet you gave the ASH 25 pilot a bit of gentle ribbing over that Ian!

John G

[Ian Lane]

You bet!

[Ireallyknowwhathappened]

The plane was trying to land, apparently. The pilot was killed while landing at the airport:https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/05/09/one-person-killed-in-glider-tow-plane-crash-at-byron-airport/

Lawyer advises the survivors to pursue justice. :https://www.pacificattorneygroup.com/tag/pilot-killed-in-byron-airport-plane-crash/

[Getyourhandsoffthatthingontow]

"In 33 years of flying sailplanes I was given the rope once. The tow pilot was new and only had 3 tow's prior. It was a WAVE day and it was bumpy on tow. He gave me the rope at 400 ft. I was directly behind the tow plane when it happen. The tow pilot had never flew in wave conditions before. I was unhappy because it was a glider ride I was performing. BTW, that was the last day that tow pilot towed.
Regards,"
xxx tow pilot

[agca...@gmail.com]

I’ve been towing for 35 years and have had kitting incidents, all with the schweizer hitch, and mostly pawnee’s. You can believe I am paying serious attention the first 500 ft of every tow!
I only had one instance of s schweizer hitch not releasing immediately. A 2-33 kitted severely and I yanked that release almost immediately. I rolled hard left then yanked again and she released. I got the load pulling more sideways than upwards. Thankfully I had the altitude to make that radical move with my nose pointing 60degrees downward.
There are alot of idiot glider flyers out there. This incident was caused by a 800 hour flier who dropped his phone and tried to retreave it when we were about 500 ft agl.
Dan

[john firth]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:

It might be interesting to get the statistics from Oz where low tow
is standard. ( anywhere else with low tow)
John F

[Sci Fi]

If you have ever tried to move your arms when undergoing a high G
manoeuvre, you will realise the difficulty of grabbing hold of anything.

As the rope angle will not change much, having the release mechanism auto
release is also not so probable. Maybe some electronic Angle of Attack
device is needed that would detect any upset, and chop the rope instantly.

[John Foster]

Not a bad idea, but I'd link it to the artificial horizon instead of the AOA. But I'm not an aeronautical engineer, so what do I know?

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Valley Soaring Club in NY uses low tow.
About 70,000 towns by club and preceding commercial operation with no upsets.
That said, it could happen tomorrow.
I do believe upset is less likely in low tow however.
UH

[Nick Kennedy]

Couple of observations from the cheap seats.

1. This has been a ongoing problem with NO solution since the first aerotow ever.
I wonder when the first tug upset fatality took place, in the '20's?

2. These accidents are [ I think ] 100% on the glider pilot.
We glider pilots have to do a better job while on tow period. No matter what happens if you get out of line, your first move has to be to release. Forget the canopy, snake, bee, your phone, electrical fire, anything really, etc etc.

3. From the pictures it appears to me the towplane impacted the runway, but I'm not sure, but it looks like it to me. If so, the tug was probably still very low and and any type of release isn't going to save the day. It probably happened in a very few seconds.

Damn *this sucks,* BAD.

Its So unfair to the tug pilot, and his family.
I'm into this gliding stuff for fun and this IS NOT fun.
We as a group HAVE to do better than this.
Nick
T

[Nick Kennedy]

I've flown Low Tow on both ends of the rope in Australia
It works up high. Its kinda weird for the glider pilot. Its a very different sight picture.
But, when the tug is 50' in the air, during the initial T.O. it doesn't stop a kite like what happened in Byron Ca.
That kite accident is pure glider pilot error.
Even if the elevator is unconnected, it's still glider pilot error.
You've got to release *immediately* when things go out of parameters.
Don't try and save it especially when low say below 1000' IMHO
Nick
T

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Ummmm.......later post mirrors my post here......
Our club does low tow predominantly.....but we teach both (I am an ex CFIG....didn't do a renewal years ago because of work travel)...,
Dufis on the glider end can muck up any tow..... went to a funeral of a friend due to a squirrel we ran off. Kiting issue....

I have "quite a few aerotows" over decades.....worst were low power tug with a water laden 15M ship.....
Beyond that....you're current, discussion with tug pilot, discussion with locals...may be "sporty" but doable....
Issue is peeps that don't do low tow, tend to do,"stupid low tow".....lack of conversation....that whole wind gradient thingy...
Look in most gliding books.....low tow is recommended for cross country....
Our group is maybe 1 of 2 or 3 in the US of A that do low tow normally.....

Sucks for the loss...condolences for all involved...bad day in general....

[Brian]

Several responses on how the release should be configured to improve response time of a release for Pawnee. Which is interesting since it wasn't a Pawnee this occurred with.
Any recommendations/documentation on how to improve a factory Bellanca Tow Hook or release handle?

Brian

[Dave Springford]

Our Citabria has the release bowden cable routed up to the top of the fuselage and comes out of the headliner just in front of the switch console and forward to attach to the structural tube at the windscreen/wing root. This places the cable directly above the throttle by about 18 inches at the top of the window.

To release, raise your hand from the throttle to the cable and pull down on the cable. You don't need to look for it or take your eyes off the sky.

We use a Tost release, so no special lever is required to overcome release friction, a simple 5 lb pull will do it.

I have seen some Scouts with a lever mounted up top in an inverted orientation, so you pull down and forward on the lever to actuate.

[moshe....@gmail.com]

How about making the rope longer?

[Curt]

Anyone see a tow rope in the accident photos? There appears to be a probe of some sort close to the tail wheel and extending beyond. Too blurry to see clearly, but isn't this where the release mech should be? Towed with a Scout many times. We won't get much from the NTSB for months, unfortunately.
CC

[Ian Lane]

As well as our Pawnee, our club also operated a Scout for many years. It
had the same release system as our Pawnee, as described in Dave
Springfield's post below and in my earlier post.

At 00:50 12 May 2020, Dave Springford wrote:
>Our Citabria has the release bowden cable routed up to the top of the

>fusel=

>age and comes out of the headliner just in front of the switch console
and

>=

>forward to attach to the structural tube at the windscreen/wing root.

>This=

> places the cable directly above the throttle by about 18 inches at the

>top=

> of the window.
>
>To release, raise your hand from the throttle to the cable and pull down

>on=

> the cable. You don't need to look for it or take your eyes off the sky.
>
>We use a Tost release, so no special lever is required to overcome
release

>=
>friction, a simple 5 lb pull will do it. =20

>
>I have seen some Scouts with a lever mounted up top in an inverted

>orientat=

[BobWa43]

[BobWa43]

Very sad day my condolences to the family and all who knew him. He is a great loss to the soaring community.

[2G]

I would immediately put an electrical actuator on the release cable. The actuator (either solenoid or linear actuator) would have a pull of 200 lbs or more. The electric actuator could be in parallel with the existing manual lever so that either could release the tow rope. A release switch would be put on the stick, just like helicopters. Ultimately the electric release could be automatically actuated by an attitude sensor.

Tom

[Waveguru]

Again, condolences to all involved. I would sure like to know some of the details. How old and how experienced was the glider pilot? How long was the tow rope and was it within the regulations regarding breaking strength? Was the tow release on the floor of the tow plane? How high were they when the glider kited?

Boggs

[Scott Williams]

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 12:45:39 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> Again, condolences to all involved. I would sure like to know some of the details. How old and how experienced was the glider pilot? How long was the tow rope and was it within the regulations regarding breaking strength? Was the tow release on the floor of the tow plane? How high were they when the glider kited?
>
> Boggs

With Sadness and respect, the video shows the towplane on the runway, and the paved surface seems to have threshold markings. If this is so, the towplane came to rest on the departure end and would seem to indicate a very low and early event in the launch.
Scott.

[Ramy]

Both the tow pilot and the glider pilot where very experienced. The glider pilot is also an instructor. The scout had a retractable tow rope with a guillotine release. It happened so quickly I doubt the tow pilot had any time to react and recover. This is just my opinion not official statement of course. I wasn’t at Byron that day. We will need to wait for at least the preliminary NTSB reports but we will make sure to cooperate with the NTSB investigator.
This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite their glider.

Ramy

[Stephen Struthers]

At 18:05 12 May 2020, Ramy wrote:

This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is
unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of
accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with
it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how
experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite
their glider.

Ramy

Well said that man

[Bob Youngblood]

Thanks for the information, your willingness to speak on the incident speaks volumes. Hopefully all those with professional speculation will quell their thoughts and speculations out of respect.

[Waveguru]

Thank you very much for this information Ramy. One of the hardest things is not knowing what took place. It could happen to any of us if we let our guard down. It only takes a second.

Boggs

[BG]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL

16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.

We are looking for the tow rope.

BG

Indeed it was a canopy came open.

[2G]

Did the glider have a flight data logger? If so, has the flight log been examined?

Tom

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
With respect
UH

[waltco...@aol.com]

Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.

[George Haeh]

Things we don't teach to beginning glider pilots:

1. Don't kill the towpilot – Release immediately if you lose sight of the towplane or have any control problems.

2. Egress and use of chute. A K-21 on an intro flight lost control after a lightning strike and both pilots successfully used their chutes. Sadly last year that was not the case after a midair between another K-21 and towplane.

3. Handling a loose canopy. There's been a number of write-offs and fatalities because of this, even though gliders are perfectly flyable without a canopy.

You really need to know which rudder pedal will keep a side opening canopy down if it was not properly latched – easy to do on an L-33 (now a simulator cockpit) as I have witnessed.

Then there's the Puchaz which can lose the canopy in a sideslip if the latches are not perfectly adjusted.

Having a CG hook, I have my hand on the release until 300' up. Self preservation on the winch and towpilot preservation on aerotow. I'd much rather deal with writing off my glider than killing a towpilot.

[agca...@gmail.com]

Thanks all for the additional information that helps clear up this tragic accident.

Now damb it to hell!!!!! When are we going to ram into the heads of everyone flying, new pilot-experienced pilot, old guy-young guy, to FLY THE DAMB AIRPLANE!.... we have all seen this type of needless accident multiple times. Screw the canopy, forget the canopy, fly the Fin ship! Don’t release unless your still on the ground and got stoppable runway in front of you, don’t panic, Deal with the canopy or whatever once your at safe altitude!

Check lists are great, essential, but do we teach how to handle the crap once we stepped into it! First rule, undivided attention to flying the ship when something unexpected happens. We have all seen the panic of guys with unlatched canopies, how bout guys who panic when they loose their airspeed ( seen a guy crash on takeoff due to this panic), or encounter the wasp biting their neck on takeoff, or the snake in the cockpit/rat/mouse. Fly the ship!!!!!!! FIRST, then sort out the stuff when ya got some altitude. Sprung canopies, no airspeed, wasp bit etc aint gonna kill you or someone else, but a panic and loss of control will!

Fact, some sprung open canopies can be reclosed and saved by yawing hard in the direction away from the hinge side. The side and top lid of agcats are known to pop open regularly. We just fly the plane, then when safely clear of the ground/obstacles, yaw hard left to get the top lid to come down n latch, then yaw hard right to get the window to come up n latch. Same goes for the old schweizer 2-22. A hard yaw will keep the canopy from springing over or can help a guy get it back over where it belongs and once the shock is over a guy can get ahold of it and latch it or hold it till landed.

Needless accidents, needless and tragic loss of life. We all need to sit up, pay attention, rethink how/what we teach, and also what we present on biannuals. We simulate rope breaks, have you ever covered an airspeed and had to fly a tow-release-landing without? How about a guy in the back seat who screams out just after breaking ground? How dod the front seater react, how would you react? Panic pull of the stick? Trying to turn around n look back while just above the ground? Bad news!
Think about it.


Dan

[johnsin...@yahoo.com]

Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years...................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
Just my .02 cents,
JJ

[agca...@gmail.com]

John I like that little trick
Dan

[2G]

What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release. Professional airline pilots which have two pilots in the cockpit with electronic checklists still screw up. If that's the solution I guarantee that towplane upsets will continue to happen.

The tow pilot is in a very vulnerable situation: he/she is totally dependent upon the correct performance of the glider pilot. One towplane upset accident is one too many.

Tom

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Since you seem to have the problem solved, it seems that you have a real opportunity to create a product that will be in demand.
Maybe the first place to start would be a functional specification.
Go for it.
UH

[markm...@gmail.com]

> What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.

Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?

Put up or....

[2G]

Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!

Tom

[Duster]

Jeeeesh.. that suggestion wasn't worth the full 0.2cents; here's a penny rebate back. Take your low-tech ideas somewhere else, like the flat-earth society who'll appreciate numskull ideas. You take us for a bunch of idiots?
..... Okay, well, actually that sounds like a simple, workable solution. We use it on the flap handle when thermalling; a reminder to go neutral or negative when leaving the lift. Any simple ideas to keep us from stall/spinning in?

[markm...@gmail.com]

> Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!
>
> Tom

But, but, you said it was simple!

Ideas are cheap. Implementation is a bit more difficult.

Your time isn't worth a million bucks. Your ideas, without the fortitude to back them up are worthless.

[2G]

Mark,

I don't have a dog in the fight: I fly a motorglider: no towplane, no tow pilot, no kiting. And I certainly don't have a towplane. I AM NOT going to develop something for which I have no use. But I AM a degreed graduate engineer and can offer advice for those that wish to take on such a project.

Tom

[markm...@gmail.com]

Whoopee for you. If you aren't going to develop it, and you have "no dog in the fight," quit pontificating about what somebody else "should do."

Once again, put up or....

I assume your advice will be free to those who wish to take advantage of your genius, as your opinions are so freely offered.

[2G]

Some people are impervious to the obvious.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 12 May 2020 17:41:24 -0700, agcatflyr wrote:

> We simulate rope breaks, have you ever covered an airspeed
> and had to fly a tow-release-landing without?
>

Aero tow, no. Winch, yes: three times. First was pre-solo in an ASK-21
and an ASI cover was used, so the whole launch was flown without an ASI
for the student. Part of the BGA syllabus. Isn't that part of US solo
qualification and if not, why not?

The other two were ASI failures after launch. Both of these were in a
Puchacz. First was shortly after release. By then we'd just found a nice
thermal so we decided it would be rude it not use it, went away over big
open space, did a stall or two as reminder of noises etc, came back and
landed without incident. Second was halfway up the launch: pulled the
bung, flew abbreviated pattern and landed. No huhu.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[andy....@gmail.com]

- which is that you aren't the first genius in this picture. Others with more than your lukewarm and retractable commitment have looked at this before, including trial devices.


The first such incident I heard of was a couple years before I started flying, and it's happened to two others I had briefly met, so there's always been an interest in this.

[stu8...@gmail.com]

> Things we don't teach to beginning glider pilots:
>
> 1. Don't kill the towpilot – Release immediately if you lose sight of the towplane or have any control problems.
>

Careful, that 'don't kill the tow pilot' lesson can put tow pilots at risk.


In my primary training, release if you loose site was taught, but the reasoning was about collision and not tying a bow around something.

Kiting is not obvious until you know about it.
Training needs to talk through that reasoning behind the rule.

This includes both the possibility of overwhelming the tow's elevator authority and for CG pilots, the glider's.

[BobW]

>..... Okay, well, actually that sounds like a simple, workable
> solution. We use it on the flap handle when thermalling; a reminder to go
> neutral or negative when leaving the lift. Any simple ideas to keep us from
> stall/spinning in?

Sincere condolences to everyone directly affected by this - (apparently) yet
another, entirely - avoidable soaring fatality. It - and peppered throughout
this thread's preceding comments - contains serious food for thought, and -
ideally - altered awarenesses/thought-processes/reactions for every pilot
genuinely interested in improving their flight skills. And so, continuing in
this particular philosophic vein...

It's one thing to kill another fellow soaring pilot and have to live with the
consequences. Is there a living pilot who "wishes to go there"?

It's another thing to kill yourSELF...which (in my view) stall/spin accidents
arguably are - 100%. Internalizing this particular worldview is - was for me
anyway - the "simple idea" Most Useful to "keep us [me] from stall/spinning
in". Avoiding "going there" was/is one of those "simple ideas" Seriously
Helpful to remaining among the living for as long as my internal biology
ordains. The altered awareness goes beyond every possible training exposure
(which IMHO can be improved - raise your hands if your instruction didn't
expose you to [say] opening your 2-seater's canopy in flight before trading
off controls with your instructor). It's a life philosophy, not "mere training."

Specifically - accompanying *EVERY* landing approach (and, "low thermalling
situation" undertaken) was the actively-considered simple-idea that if I
sufficiently screwed things up, I was going to soon be irrevocably dead. I
found it focused my attention, if nothing else!

Having through the years put forth this idea numerous times over RAS, I've
encountered various misguided/mistaken interpretations of what the above
assertions are trying to convey. So be it. I'll be leaving now, my work here
is done!

:-)

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Nick Kennedy]

Dashcam video of this tragic accident
This is out on the internet now

https://photos.app.goo.gl/X9E3c7JDwnyMBMLw6

Nick
T

[jfitch]

And therein lies the problem. A million for development, certification, and production is probably on the light side. With a worldwide lifetime market of maybe 200 units, if you achieve 20% market penetration. $5000 each would recover only costs. One false positive release resulting in an accident could wipe out the entire budget easily. Ain't going to happen.

[jfitch]

Ramy, what model glider was involved? I assume side opening canopy.

[2G]

Yeah, and these guys thought I was joking! The only way this can happen is if the engineering labor is donated. I am retired and can contribute, but I am not even close to a towplane. A lot of flight testing, some of it dangerous because it involves actual towplane upsets (albeit at altitude), would have to be done.

On the positive side, the cost of manufacturing such a unit would not be high, less than $500.

Tom

[AS]

Unbelievable....!

Uli
'AS'

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Seriously sad.

[stu8...@gmail.com]

Amazing that there is footage.

Not sure what it shows. I think let the NTSB sort it out.

[Rakel]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:56:41 PM UTC-4, stu8...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Not sure what it shows. I think let the NTSB sort it out.

last view of the glider and tow plane are at 0:51 on the video.

It appears that the glider is way too high, but this could just be the point of view of the dashcam.

[George Haeh]

You can see the ground run beginning at 0:31. Can't tell if the canopy is open. The NTSB may be able to synchronise with the glider recorder, but a 4 second interval won't add much information. In some cases Oudies record at 1 second intervals.

[Ramy]

The glider was a 1-26.

Ramy

[mskoe...@gmail.com]

This is very sad. My condolences to everyone who knew and loved the tow pilot… and to the sailplane pilot and his family and friends as well.

In watching the dashcam video, I realize that there is a second aspect to these accidents that I hadn’t previously recognized. All the energy to accelerate the glider along its longer flight path (crack the whip style) and the potential energy it gained with increasing altitude, came from the tow plane’s kinetic energy. It is not just a matter of overpowering the tow pilot’s pitch authority; we’ve also robbed him of flying speed.

Further note, it takes less than 2 seconds for the transition from a standard tow position to what is surely an unrecoverable situation for the tow plane.

Mike Koerner

[AS]

Correct! You just described the dynamics of the early stage of a winch launch! The Russians experimented with this sort of thing decades ago by paying out a long line from the tow plane during the tow and then initiating a dive while the glider went into a winch-like attitude. They basically sling-shot the glider to very high altitudes that way.

Anyone interested to discuss and work on a conceptual technical solution beyond Schweizer vs. Tost hook outside of this group, please contact me at moc.oohay@nnamuenilu

Uli
'AS'

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL

I have seen a number of these posts over the years, each one is a gut punch. I am not inexperienced,
but for the life of me I cannot understand how these happen. When I was trained it was really entrenched to release as soon as sight of tow as lost. This included if I took my eyes off the tow plane for a second, I earned a release with the instructor telling me "Why didn't you release, you had lost sight"? Once even falling for a "hey, look at that bird at 3 o'clock, I looked, I got a release. Are these kites so fast that a glider pilot doesn't have time to react, or are these 100% preventable? I don't do anything on tow, but fly tow. I don't mess with phone, set instruments or retract gear.

[waltco...@aol.com]

From the standpoint of the tow pilot they can and do happen too fast to react. I've experienced the slow, annoying, what the hell is the glider pilot doing type of kite and the sudden, split second, I'm nose down and turned to the left type. Even if I had my hand on the release (which was quite inappropriately installed down on the floor, difficult to reach) I would not have had time to react before I was nose down. I've experience two of the sudden type kite, one at 2K feet and again one at about 300-350 feet. I've had more than one pilot give me push back when I would later approach them about their lack of control on take off. There is NO excuse for doing anything but keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. The tow pilot at Byron didn't stand a chance of recovery due to the low level of the incident. In my one low level kiting experience had I been 50 feet lower I would not have had time or room to recover.

I remember my first glider flight. My CFIG clearly said "if we lose sight of the tow plane, we release!!. His admonitions were clear and concise. "No matter what happens, FLY THE GLIDER FIRST!!!" These instructions were stated on every flight as they should be by every CFIG on every flight. Even at that one cannot count on the student or even the certified glider pilot doing things properly all the time. I have learned in life that there is a difference between telling someone what to do and "teaching" them what to do. Human error is ubiquitous.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[Bob Youngblood]

Walt, it would surprise most as to how many times this happens and things do not turn tragic, point being is that it happens way too often. Recently I was pulling a student pilot in a 1-26 and he did the exact thing to me.I was flying The Gorilla and you can only imagine where my left hand was as I was yelling at him on the radio. You know that we as tow pilots sometimes go beyond in allowing glider pilots to get further out of position than we should. MY motto is, I'll Dump You Bro!!!
Each time this has happened at our club the glider pilot always has some excuse to justify his lack of reacting to the situation. As mentioned earlier, there is no excuse in NOT reaching for the safety of all involved.
Towing is a hazardous duty, there needs to be more emphasis placed on staying in the slot from the first lesson to the last. this will not be the last time this type of accident occurs, lets face the facts, gliding is hazardous, and tow pilots have been not vocal enough during the training process, not anymore, things are changing.

[Tango Eight]

One of the more surprising things I have learned as a CFIG over last four seasons is how shitty glider pilots are as a group in terms of cockpit discipline on take off and departure. They mess with switches, knobs, windows, cameras, water bottles, you name it. I threw a fit about this and said "I'm going to insist on sterile cockpits below 1000'".

I got push back on that from an /instructor/.

Let's talk about open canopies.

Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0I75OZmA-0

As far as I can see, he did one thing, and only one thing correct: keep the tow together until he had an easy approach to a safe landing. Everything else about the decision making on that flight is just wrong. What was he going to do if he got badly out of position, pull the release with his teeth?

Here's another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNJCGxQ_4zo

(wtf does the instructor have a hand held camera?)

That one is just pure luck. Most times, a canopy that opens on tow will be damaged and will not reclose properly.

C'mon, instructors, let's step up.

Flight reviews are a perfect opportunity for refreshing emergency procedures.

Evan Ludeman

[BobWa43]

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, uncl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > >
> > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > >
> > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > Jupiter, FL
> > >

> > > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> > >
> > > We are looking for the tow rope.
> > >
> > > BG
> > >
> > > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
> >
> > This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> > If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> > Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> > We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> > With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> > With respect
> > UH
>
> Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.

Actually,, in this case, flying the airplane means immediately pulling the release.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

Actaully "fly the airplane" means retain control as to not get out of position in the first place. The distraction of the canopy opening causes loss of attention on position. There are many cases where immediate release would be worse than holding position, possibly grabbing the canopy, and flying to a height where release is a safer option.
I teach my students that the glider flies just fine with the canopy open and not letting it cause more problems is number one.
One recent accident in the northeast involved the canopy coming open, tow gyrations, followed by release with plenty of height to safely return to the airport. He got that part right.The pilot was so distracted by trying to keep the canopy closed that he did not notice that the air brakes had popped open. He retained that condition all the way to impacting the ground a few hundred feet from the airport. Glider totalled, pilot minor injuries.
UH

[waltco...@aol.com]

Correct, we are not vocal enough in the training process. The student who almost killed me had NO business being sent on solo. I towed her on 6 or more duals that morning and as per usual she was in and out of the mirror, could not hold steady position and yet her instructor sent her solo. I should have said NO, not gonna tow her but I didn't, that failure almost got me killed. Fact is that even if the gentleman in California who died was flying the Gorilla with what I consider should be the gold standard of handle and tow hook he may well not have survived. I understand he managed to cut the rope but still impacted the ground. Below a certain altitude you are most likely to crash and if not be dead be seriously injured.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot

Now happy Helicopter Pilot

[phlyi...@gmail.com]

Attached are 3 frames from the video and part of the video that has been magnified and edited. My observations only, I'm not a forensic investigator. First frame shows glider on left, towplane on right with the glider "below" the tug. Tug's landing gear and tail position are evident with vertical stabilizer below wing surface. Note the glider's tail appears even with its wing. Second frame: glider tail now dips "below" its wing and the pitch-up is evidenced by showing more top wing surface; glider is "above" tug. Vert stab of tug now higher/level with its wing. Tug's undercarriage seen. Third frame: Glider appears higher above tug; glider's tail now more horizontal with respect to wing. [Note video has been slowed by 50%] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0

Last document is from NTSB final report of 2017 fatal towplane accident. One photo clearly shows the Pawnee's elevator in extreme up deflection while the glider is high above it.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> The glider was a 1-26.
>
> Ramy

Too bad. A 1-26 flies fine without a canopy. I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, and though flying slower than on tow it wasn't terribly dramatic. Perhaps if training in 2-33s opening the canopy to experience it should be part of the course. It is the surprise and fear of the unknown which certainly contributes to the loss of concentration.

An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

" I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, " Until this moment, I had considered you the smartest guy on this news group. And for a yaw string??? I haven't actually looked at one in years, my butt and damaged lower back give me much feed back. But seriously, other than unbuckling, airplanes, gliders, helicopters can all fly without windows or doors (check POH for which doors). I witnessed a piper arrow crash due to a door coming ajar on take off. I too have opened canopies on 2-33's (pumpkin drops) and even on a Grob 103, front canopy to clear the hot air. In risk v rewards annuals, a yaw string is just not worth unbuckling for, i.e., dying.

[BobWa43]

If you are very early in the take off run, as was the case here, and something is not right, immediate release is the proper response IMO and that is what I teach my students.

[Steve Koerner]

> An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
>

I'd been thinking along the same line. I don't think it's quite that simple though. No matter how sharp the blade, it won't cut a line that is merely kissing against it. The blade needs to be hot enough to melt through the line or actively sawing. And, obviously it has to all happen very quickly.

How about this: Imagine two permanent magnets (strong magnets) that when joined together create a magnetic junction in the tow line just a bit aft of the tugs two hook. Similar to the knife blade idea, a horizontal bar is mounted off the back of the tow plane above the tow rope such that when the rope raises to a critical angle, the bar presses along the alignment between the two magnets. The relatively small orthogonal force exerted at the magnetic juncture will have a leverage effect to pry the magnets enough to break the magnetic circuit. To improve and optimize the leverage action on the magnets, each may have an attached bar of defined length that is rigidly affixed such the tow line attachment point is positioned at the distal end of these leverage bars. In fact, the tug side's lever bar may have a ring at the end to be attached directly to the tug's tow release. The tug will be instantly freed predicated on the existence of a strong enough pull on the line above the critical angle of bar contact.

[Bob Youngblood]

I agree Walt, after looking at those enlarged frames I must conclude that the poor tow pilot waited too long to pull the trigger on release. Things happen so quickly that I doubt that the outcome could have been any different. As tow pilots we all probably extend every possible opportunity to the glider pilot to make recovery, in many cases way too long.
The situation with the 1-26 student pilot was with an individual that took 250 plus flights to solo, the guy should be fishing instead of flying gliders.
A look in the mirror tells wonders when you are towing, we have that ability to evaluate from the front of the rope instead of from behind. This gives us the opportunity to see things that the instructor doesn't. As you well know we as tow pilots can and do make corrections that nullify the mistakes of the glider pilot.
When we have check rides for students I make it a point to inform the DPE of the experiences that I have had as the applicants tow pilot and point out any potential areas of concern that the DPE could assist with to help the applicant. The same goes for their primary instructor, I communicate my concerns! Us as tow pilots need to do more of this, being involved in that process of communicating with the student and the instructor is vital. Most of our instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, therefor we have a huge advantage in evaluating the tow. I'll DUMP YOU BRO!!

[Steve Koerner]

Perhaps simpler and smaller than the magnetic method would be to instead incorporate a metal weak link analogous to a Tost weak link used on winch tows. In this case, the link is designed to bust specifically by leverage action across the weak link junction. There will be leverage bars on both sides of this angular weak link. The fulcrum of action could comprise two annular elements with the weak link element joining the two sides in the center of the annular elements. As with the magnetic case, a bar above the line imparts an orthogonal force that results in a powerful leverage action that busts the weak link when the combination of line angle and pull force exceeds the intended critical threshold.

[johnsin...@yahoo.com]

Has anyone investigated placing the tow hook directly over(or under) the tow planes center of gravity? This would keep the out of position glider from yanking the tow planes tail out of acceptable limits? The RC tow ships, I have seen, place the tow hook over the towing ships CG.
My 2 cents,
JJ

[john firth]

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL

suggestion for instructors;
after the latch item, teach a positive (push up) canopy check.
On subsequent flights, add some distraction for the student.
If they fail to latch and check, then wait till the launch starts
and push the canopy open, ( and release )
This is more likely to register in the student's memory.
I used to do this and they hated me for it; instructing is not always
a popularity contest.

John F