The Apology

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Recently there was an apology issued from the SSA and the SSF and Editor for a so called offensive interpretation of the depiction of a historical portrayal of a young lady and a glider pilot on a previous edition of Soaring magazine. After reading the complaints from the women associated with the WSPA I decided it is now time to voice the other side of the story.
That depiction reminded me of the 1970's when I met my wife at the Kendall Gliderport in Miami . I was flying my Std. Cirrus and she was a student pilot for gliders. So to say that that depiction was sexist is completely ridiculous. The SSA should have never apologized because of an orchestrated attack on the publication , Editor, and the SSF.
The complainants are without merit, totally offbase and have a directive in place that only undermines the overall objective of the SSA, SSF, and Editor. You would think that this bunch of misfits, have no understanding of how this is an inclusive activity and not directed by any one gender.
Ladies, listen up, much has been done by the SSA and others to support women in the sport of flying gliders. Let me take a moment and share a story with you about compassion and inclusion.
During the past year we has a lady member whom became sick from a serious stage of cancer, a few of us at our club took notice and understood the severity of the situation and made it possible for this lady to achieve her goal of becoming a CFIG. We made sure that this was done at no cost, and guess what, she completed her CFIG even while on chemotherapy.
Sorry that you think the SSA must apologize for your mis-interpretation and misguided effort . I think that the lack of cognizance is appalling. Bob Youngblood

[resi...@sbcglobal.net]

Can someone post a scan of the ad in question? I saw the complaints in the recent magazine edition but had already discarded the offending magazine and apparently didn't take notice of the ad when I read it. I'd just like to see what all of the hubbub is about before drawing any conclusion.

[Jim N]

Try this:

http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?m=32960&i=667760&p=16

If anyone finds this old ad offensive they must be having a really hard time coping with day to day "stuff"

Jim

[2G]

That ad actually reflects reality. I have had many a conversation answering the question posed in the ad, mostly to other guys. Somebody's gain is turned up WAY TOO HIGH!

Tom

[stu8...@gmail.com]

Anybody got a link to the actual complaint?

[markm...@gmail.com]

In my 47 years of soaring flight, (28 years in hang gliding, 20 in sailplanes) I have received thousands of queries about the advisability/possibility/safety etc. of flying without an engine. Most of the questions were asked by men, but a significant number were asked by women. Invariably the questioner was someone who simply had no knowledge of the sport at all, and were under the assumption that an aircraft simply could not fly without propulsion.

Often, a few minutes of explanation about flight dynamics and the ability to recognize energy sources in the atmosphere would educate the interested party sufficiently. Some actually were intrigued enough to pursue the concept to the point of taking a ride, taking lessons and even getting a license. A few continued to the point of adding ratings and I am proud to say that at several dozen of the initial questions resulted in military or commercial careers.

If simply answering an innocent question about a topic about which you have knowledge is somehow insulting, due to an insecure and suspicious attitude that the person asking feels inferior, then I suggest that anybody with any technical experience with anything from particle physics to auto mechanics is going to be castigated by the allegedly offended party.

In my mind, I think that those who complained about the ad in Soaring owe an apology to the person they first asked for information about flying sailplanes. And their Instructors, mentors, tow pilots and friends who ever gave them valuable advice.

[MNLou]

Perhaps the issue was not with the question but the "love story" comment at the bottom?

I would like more info as I try hard to be sensitive to any sexism. I admit that I didn't catch any issue when this was originally published.

Lou

[xcnick]

Perhaps it is because I was titillated by the artist rendition of the time period's women. The reality is the ladies were good sticks and way hotter!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/d9QWyP4H3jCZYrUYA

[B BRIONES]

I love America. I was born here, but having grown up in a country where the culture clearly defines and embraces the "Macho" man image, the ad in question does "NOT even faze me". I my opinion, men and women are built different and each has their own strengths and weaknesses. I guess that makes men & women equal but different at the same time. I also believe that men and women are superior in their respective areas but will never be the same... I love being the "Alpha" at home, even though my wife disagrees with me on this.

To deviate a bit... Americans (specially the younger generation(s) following the greatest American Generation), in my opinion have become weak and lost focus on what is important, wasting time on petty stuff. While America is "still" the greatest nation on earth, if Americans does not wake up soon, we will end up in a nightmare...

[joel!!!!@yahoo,com]

Tongue firmly planted in cheek " could this not be another QAnon theory? Yes "He" has turned the country on its head.

[Charles Petersen]

There's gonna be whiplash when this political correctness finally swings the other way.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Mark, you make a great point , the apology should be from these Feminazi organizers whose mission was only to create conflict. This Femitifa approach should not be tolerated, solution, defund the WSPA as part or association with the SSA. The term Femitifa is derived from the Antifa approach to creating conflict and empowering sexist views that server their own agenda.

[Guy Byars]

> The term Femitifa is derived from the Antifa approach to creating conflict and empowering sexist views that server their own agenda.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 2:13:22 PM UTC-4, Guy Byars wrote:
> > The term Femitifa is derived from the Antifa approach to creating conflict and empowering sexist views that server their own agenda.
> When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Sorry for the big fingers, it only serves their own agenda.

[Tony]

Actually I think the person wearing the helmet looks pretty butch in spite of the obvious use of cosmetics... Maybe that's what offends people!

[stu8...@gmail.com]

Here are the feedback letters concening this.

The 3rd and 4th had the patience to clearly explain the issue.


https://mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=674598&article_id=3770489&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5

Basically instead of welcoming women, the ad brought back memories of days when women were supposed to be worshipping pilots instead of being pilots.

With hindsight, perhaps SSF could have run same picture with the lady having just piloted a glider 1000k, the guy astonished with the no engine thing, and the tag line talking about the love of flying?

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Stu, let me take a moment and ask each of these women the basic question, what have you done for soaring? They have certainly benefitted from the exposure to soaring and I will never judge their ability, only their judgement.
This topic really is disturbing, what these females have done is dig a big hole, I don't think they have a shovel big enough to dig their way out.

[xcnick]

Whatever the problem is I'm listening.

Back to reality of era, here is she is third from the left with Eleanor Roosevelt. Closest to the camera with USA on her sleeve is Ann Woods who just told Mrs. President: “In England, the ladies get equal pay as the men.” Look at Eleanor's smile. This first was two lifetimes ago, but it is still an issue in the USA.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oFCcTozLaaAZURdVA

[stu8...@gmail.com]

> This topic really is disturbing, what these females have done is dig a big hole, I don't think they have a shovel big enough to dig their way out.

The complaint, which sadly required the explaination for this old guy see the harm in what seemed harmless, seems a valid, constructive suggestion for improvement. We definitely want more women pilots and being tone deaf in this area is not helping this end.

Your proposed question seems counterproductive.

[Dan Marotta]

What these people don't seem to understand is that that was the common
behavior, belief, and attitude of the era.  I'm not saying it's either
good or bad, just that it was.  Getting upset today over something that
happened decades ago, and was mainstream at the time, is simply someone
wanting to stir up bad feelings.  These are the same people who claim
that Thomas Jefferson was a bad person.

--
Dan, 5J

[MNLou]

Whoa - I think some people need to take a deep breath and do some research.

Some of the women who wrote in have been contributing to SSA in a big way for years.

Not to mention that the current Chair of the SSA is a woman.

I believe the proper response is to understand why someone was offended and determine how to prevent it in the future.

We don't get to determine is someone should be offended. Our job is to respect their feelings.

And, if the Editor and the Chair of the SSF think they needed to apologize, I'll take their lead.

Lou

PS - I think Thomas Jefferson was a great founder. Flawed but great.

[Dan Marotta]

I've met both complainant and the SSA President, both at the WSPA
seminar at Black Forest in the early 90s and got along just fine with both.

As to respect, what about those of us who are offended by their
complaints?  So feel free to apologize for yourself, but not for me.

--
Dan, 5J

[stu8...@gmail.com]

>  Getting upset today over something that
> happened decades ago, and was mainstream at the time, is simply someone
> wanting to stir up bad feelings. 

Agreed that this old stuff happened in the mainstream in the 40's and best water under the bridge today, even if bad by today's standards. Wanting to stir up bad feelings because of it not productive.

The complaint seems about the same stuff unfortunately happening today.

[Steve Bralla]

I'm offended by the people that are offended by by the people that are offended by the SSF ad. Now you can be offended by my offence.

[Bella Smolder]

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 9:09:27 PM UTC-5, s.bral...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm offended by the people that are offended by by the people that are offended by the SSF ad. Now you can be offended by my offence.

So is that the triple dog dare?

[danlj]

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 7:09:17 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've met both complainant and the SSA President, both at the WSPA
> seminar at Black Forest in the early 90s and got along just fine with both.
>
> As to respect, what about those of us who are offended by their
> complaints? So feel free to apologize for yourself, but not for me.
> On 10/20/2020 5:49 PM, MNLou wrote:
> > Whoa - I think some people need to take a deep breath and do some research.
> >
> > Some of the women who wrote in have been contributing to SSA in a big way for years.
> >
> > Not to mention that the current Chair of the SSA is a woman.
> >
> > I believe the proper response is to understand why someone was offended and determine how to prevent it in the future.
> >

> > We don't get to determine if someone should be offended. Our job is to respect their feelings.

> >
> > And, if the Editor and the Chair of the SSF think they needed to apologize, I'll take their lead.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> > PS - I think Thomas Jefferson was a great founder. Flawed but great.
> --
> Dan, 5J

The most telling aspect of this thread is that almost all the respondents are men, and almost all the men seem completely blank ("without empathy") regarding how this ad could feel demeaning to a woman. This cluelessness is, I think, the main point for many women. Dan Marotta gets it. Congratulations, Dan!

[Paul B]

> The most telling aspect of this thread is that almost all the respondents are men,

Well most readers and posters on this list are men, so no surprise there

> and almost all the men seem completely blank ("without empathy")

Or they are just utterly sick of the virtue signalling that they are exposed to

> This cluelessness is, I think, the main point for many women.

Well, unless the women are in a position of a Tardis, they can not be easily offended by something that has yet to be written.

Like Dan, I believe that you cannot, or rather should not, redo history.

Paul

[xcnick]

History is women pilots have lowered themselves to product promotions, but not like the artist rendering. Here is a real advertisement.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bce6wB4zJMAozWF96

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZrXsXRiHEfK7QjYv7

[John Godfrey (QT)]

You could stop digging (before you get to China).

[xcnick]

Not sure I understand, but I did put photos instead of illustrations with my fake news. Digging would be to offend everyone. Like: Why are you surprised the women spoke up? Any bitch who straps on a parachute, smack pack and an InReach is more of a man than most of you posers who try to cut the line to give carnival rides to tourists.

[John Godfrey (QT)]

Sorry, directed at Bob Y.

[Gregg Ballou]

The complaints and the sniveling apologies are appalling. And the woman in the ad would be more attractive if she had kept her mouth shut.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

John, the women whom complained need to dig very deep to come out the other side to redeem themselves. Oh my, what
a tangled web they wove.

[Chip Bearden]

There are situations where some overreact to an imagined slight or insult. This is not one of those situations.

Multiple long-standing members took the time to write to complain about an ad that troubled them. I think Soaring/SSA responded appropriately in responding.

What was socially acceptable in the past is not always acceptable today. I consider myself to be fairly enlightened. That said, over the years, I've managed to offend several female friends with insensitive remarks, and even lost one friend as a result. I didn't mean any harm. But these women were troubled enough to call me on it. I'm glad they explained why my remarks weren't appropriate because I didn't always "get it" and it allowed me to apologize and to try to improve.

The nearly universal response by the men on this thread is a perfect illustration of how far we have to go. Has political correctness gone too far? In some cases, yes. But those of us in the majority (and in soaring, men by far outnumber women) need to put a little effort into trying to understand why some of those in the minority might be offended by ads like this, not criticize and further insult them.

Chip Bearden
JB
SSA member since 1965

[Gregg Ballou]

Is it ancient sexism that got the girl's fired up, or is the real reason they are mad because the soaring scene doesn't have men like the guy in the advertisement?

[markm...@gmail.com]

Kumbaya, y'all. Give Peace a chance. He ain't heavy, he's my brother.

Feel free to chime in with some meaningless politically correct slogan from your childhood.

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 10:42:32 PM UTC-4, markm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Kumbaya, y'all. Give Peace a chance. He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
>
> Feel free to chime in with some meaningless politically correct slogan from your childhood.

Who the hell looks at the characters in advertisements and thinks that they portray anything significant w.r.t the general state of man- or womanhood or (even weirder) that it somehow reflects on their *personal* '

[Tango Eight]

Who the hell looks at the characters in advertisements and thinks that they portray anything significant w.r.t the general state of man- or womanhood or (even weirder) that it somehow reflects on their *personal* man- or womanhood? That's just making a problem out of nothing.

I think a few people could join me in a nice tall cold drink of "Harden the F--- Up". Your lives will be infinitely more enjoyable for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKavLUAiRWs

T8

[markm...@gmail.com]

Saw a great T-shirt:

"You think it's offensive.

I think it's funny.

That's why I'm happier than you."

[Linda Chism]

Hello, the ladies’ letters to the SSA were comments about a clumsy ad.
Your reactions to them in this thread say a lot about each of you.

Could each of you who belittled these ladies please post which club/site you are affiliated with so that I can, like, avoid ever soaring/towing there and not have to deal with you.

If you’re going to be a dumbshit, be proud. Bring it.

Cheers, Linda

[2G]

Oh, now the nuclear bomb - thanks A LOT, Linda.

[Rakel]

On Friday, October 23, 2020 at 12:01:47 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
... not have to deal with you.

> >
> > If you’re going to be a dumbshit, be proud. Bring it.
> >
> > Cheers, Linda

This thread has gone too far. Can we all just get back to flying gliders, please.

Can this thread be locked, somehow?

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Certainly people are entitled to contrasting points of view, I for one enjoy reading others viewpoints with the hope of learning how others express their views on the same topic. In some instances people agree and others disagree, but in most cases the differences are enlightening and constructive.
I find it difficult to accept that the complaints to the SSA, SSF, and Editor could have resulted in anything different. Your reference to the depiction as clumsy is certainly an opinion that you are entitled to, but don't chastise others for a different point of view. Reverting to the old boycott theory of punishment will further taint others opinions, it reminds me of my younger days playing baseball in the playground when little Johnny would take his ball and go home if things did not go his way.
So Linda here is my offer, please come to Vero Beach for a well needed vacation, you can stay here at the house, enjoy our hospitality, including great meals, good wine and rum, a nice clean bed and plenty of space for relaxing and enjoying you stay. As a bonus I will let you fly my sailplane off my strip and I personally will give you a great tow. Bob Youngblood

[Gregg Ballou]

On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 11:58:54 PM UTC-4, Linda Chism wrote:

Men are tired of this nonsense, threatening to stay away sounds too good to be true.

[xcnick]

I am a man who is not tired of women. Get on course and bring it ladies! Never see enough female xc pilots. God bless the women instructors and tow pilots, but what a thrill it was to hear Kathy on the radio ripping the Whites and scoring speed points for her club. It would be great if all women could be subservient and get my slippers and a beer, but soaring gals have a long history of being just a bit different so I will take you all as you come. Here is Emmi von Roretz, Hanna Reich, and Joan Price. I think the middle one was a bit pushy, the word Nazi comes to mind.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DT7SCmnxeGMcYiMo7

[Dan Marotta]

I think Shakespeare said it nicely with the title of one of his plays: 
"Much Ado About Nothing".

--
Dan, 5J

[B BRIONES]

It's "Boys versus Girls" all over again or "Boys will always be Boys"...who wins?
Political correctness has castrated the American men:(

[Dan Marotta]

Not me.

--
Dan, 5J

[douglas...@gmail.com]

Wow, a lot of emotions got stirred up here.

Let me see if I can understand how this ad could have been interpreted by the women who complained.

The background poster looks like something from the 50's, the glorious time for men, when women were second class citizens.

The questions being asked by the women "What? No engine? But how?" imply that she's just another dumb blonde, who cannot possibly understand the technical intricacies of motorless flight. Contrast that with the male pilot, whose head gear alone tells us all we need to know about his piloting skills and expertise in flight mechanics.

The caption "Beginning brilliant new love story - Swept Off Her Feet" could imply that there's no point in trying to explain all these intricacies to a women because that would distract her from her main purpose which she can only find in the bedroom and in the kitchen.

With this in mind, I fully agree with Chip and I totally understand and support Linda.

Cheers,
Doug

[Gregg Ballou]

A lot of people don't understand how gliders stay up, if you see a problem because a woman asked a question you are projecting your sexism. You say the man is guilty because of his hat, that is a hell of a Kafka trap. Ironically the drawing is most likely from a romance novel written for women. Poor women, women have lost a lot since the 1950's if you think being a childless corporate whore is better than being a stay at home mother you need to talk to some honest women. And yes women could fly then, if they wanted to, women have been flying since long before the Wright brothers.

[andy l]

On Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 03:09:29 UTC+1, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> Is it ancient sexism that got the girl's fired up, or is the real reason they are mad because the soaring scene doesn't have men like the guy in the advertisement?

There could be yet another possible way to look at this.

After all the words are in a thinks bubble, not actual speech

Maybe this is a first date. She is the pilot, he knows this, and has put on the hat as a whimsical joke, but a couple more attempted jokes have come out a bit crass, and she's just imagining what he's going to say next ...

[2G]

So, are you also going to take names and excommunicate pilots who disagree with you/Linda?

Tom

[Steve Bralla]

Ironically the drawing is most likely from a romance novel written for women. Poor women, women have lost a lot since the 1950's if you think being a childless corporate whore is better than being a stay at home mother you need to talk to some honest women.

I'd like to nominate Gregg Ballou for the RAS Phyllis Shapley award.
Only stay at home mothers are honest women and the rest are childless corporate whores. Wow! what group do women running glider ports fall into?

[Hugh Grandstaff]

You know what's fun?

Being a CD with an archived copy of this thread.

See you guys in Moriarty for Sports Class!!!!!!

Hugh Grandstaff

[Hugh Grandstaff]

*Club Class

[collins...@gmail.com]

Ya know, I think every time I have brought up the soaring community I have had nothing but good things to say, after reading a disgusting thread like this, I wish I never clicked the link to this post.

Grow up boys, and remember who brought home first place at worlds this year...

P.S. Why can't RAS follow the same rule of no politics at a glider club?!?!

[2G]

Ah, yet another net censor. This thread concerned a FULL-PAGE apology printed in Soaring, which we pay for, so it IS fair game. Don't read the posts if you don't like it, but STOP telling us to stop posting.

Tom

[Gregg Ballou]

Let's all think about that for a bit.

[Dan Marotta]

So...  Does the Camel cigarette ad featuring Betty Skelton offend any
men?  Certainly not me!  I saw the ad which looks like a full page from
a comic book at the Santa Rosa, NM airport.  I was so tickled by it that
I looked her up.  I'd say she accomplished a lot more than a lot of the men.

Here's a link to the ad.  It's a bit difficult to read...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-CAMEL-Cigarettes-Pilot-BETTY-SKELTON-Comic-Smoking-Retro-VINTAGE-AD-/174121210320

--
Dan, 5J

[Hugh Grandstaff]

> Let's all think about that for a bit.

Which part should we all be thinking about for a bit, Gregg?

The part where you suggested that professional women are "childless corporate whores?"
The part where you said the woman in the ad "would be more attractive if she kept her mouth shut?"
The part where another poster described the women who took the time to write to express their perspective on the ad as "femnazi's" and suggested defunding the WSPA?

I'm just curious, as there is A LOT to think about there.

[Gregg Ballou]

The part where you insinuated that ones RAS social justice rating will affect one's score. You don't think that won't affect pilots desire to race when you are CD?

[Mike Brooks]

I'll look forward to flying at any contest I'm able to where Hugh Grandstaff is CD.
Odds are I won't see you there.

Mike Brooks
XL5

[Hugh Grandstaff]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 12:18:19 PM UTC-5, Gregg Ballou wrote:

> > I'm just curious, as there is A LOT to think about there.
> The part where you insinuated that ones RAS social justice rating will affect one's score. You don't think that won't affect pilots desire to race when you are CD?

You mean people knowing they have a CD that isn't afraid to say its unacceptable to call professional women "childless corporate whores", say things like a woman would be "more attractive if she kept her mouth shut", or make comparisons of women to Nazis?

Yeah, that sounds terrible. I'm sure most people will hate that. Not calling women "whores" is a pretty radical position to take these days. I'm probably in the minority on that one.

You see, Gregg, you are not the victim here. Neither are the other men posting about how women should "get over it." Don't attempt to play one.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 12:40:15 PM UTC-4, hughtgr...@gmail.com wrote:

Hugh, the term is Feminazi, it is a pejorative that refers to women as strong willed whom demand social equity and equality. Personally, I am a huge advocate of social equity between genders and race. What I do not support is the efforts of the feminazi movement to make every aspect of their perceived sexist displays as an opportunity to advance their agenda at the expense of others. In this case it was the SSA, SSF and the Editor. Do I believe that the apologies should have been issued, NO, what should have happened is that the targeted victims should have simply explained the actual meaning of the illustration. Yes, the SSA, SSF and the Editor were targeted, make no mistake about it.
Now about defunding the WSPA, I would do that tomorrow, it should be combined into the general soaring community and not hold separate classifications. combine all contestants into a single group, "Glider Pilots". I know of several female pilots that would hold their own against men, like Linda said, "Bring It ON". Last time I looked the female glider pilots were flying white gliders and not pink.
As for me, I owe no apology, I have extended an invitation to Linda that I hope she accepts, but she will have to clean up her vulgarity.

[Hugh Grandstaff]

> Hugh, the term is Feminazi, it is a pejorative that refers to women as strong willed whom demand social equity and equality. Personally, I am a huge advocate of social equity between genders and race. What I do not support is the efforts of the feminazi movement to make every aspect of their perceived sexist displays as an opportunity to advance their agenda at the expense of others. In this case it was the SSA, SSF and the Editor. Do I believe that the apologies should have been issued, NO, what should have happened is that the targeted victims should have simply explained the actual meaning of the illustration. Yes, the SSA, SSF and the Editor were targeted, make no mistake about it.
> Now about defunding the WSPA, I would do that tomorrow, it should be combined into the general soaring community and not hold separate classifications. combine all contestants into a single group, "Glider Pilots". I know of several female pilots that would hold their own against men, like Linda said, "Bring It ON". Last time I looked the female glider pilots were flying white gliders and not pink.
> As for me, I owe no apology, I have extended an invitation to Linda that I hope she accepts, but she will have to clean up her vulgarity.

Bob-

I'm sorry that women expressing their displeasure with an advertisement and then being taken seriously is such a threat to your way of life that you would continue to refer to them as "nazis".

Now, have you ever considered that the WSPA exists because of the fact that there are people in this world who find their way of life threatened over something as simple as women being taken seriously when they voice a complaint? So seriously in fact that they will invent incendiary terms relating them Nazi's and Fascists?

Probably not. Because you are used to being taken seriously when you complain about things.

-Hugh

[Waveguru]

"When we believe or say we have been offended, we usually mean we feel insulted, mistreated, snubbed, or disrespected. And certainly clumsy, embarrassing, unprincipled, and mean-spirited things do occur in our interactions with other people that would allow us to take offense. However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else."

David A. Bednar

Boggs

[Gregg Ballou]

Bob with the women pilot outrage over an illustration of a normal woman asking a normal man a common soaring related question how many men are going to be willing to help out at future WSPA events? The chance of giving offense to that crowd is demonstrably astronomical. You don't need to defund the WSPA the ladies likely killed it off themselves.

[Hugh Grandstaff]

Boggs-

So just to be clear, are you saying that it's a woman's fault for being offended when somebody calls them a Nazi, a childless corporate whore, says that they would be more attractive if they kept their mouth shut, or says that they wish that all women would bring them their slippers and beer?

Or are you saying that all of these guys getting offended that women are offended shouldn't be offended?

-Hugh

[Hugh Grandstaff]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 5:54:58 PM UTC-5, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> Bob with the women pilot outrage over an illustration of a normal woman asking a normal man a common soaring related question how many men are going to be willing to help out at future WSPA events? The chance of giving offense to that crowd is demonstrably astronomical. You don't need to defund the WSPA the ladies likely killed it off themselves.

Gregg-

Actually, the chances of giving offense to "that crowd" as you put it are not astronomical provided that you

1) don't refer to professional women as "childless corporate whores";
2) don't tell them they would be more attractive with their mouth's shut;
3) don't use terms relating them to nazi's or fascists, and finally;
4) treat them with the same dignity and respect you would any other person or pilot.

I recognize that this will be a massive shift in lifestyle for you and Bob, but I'm sure you are up to the task if you put your mind to it.

Oh, and you guys do realize that the WSPA is completely independent of the SSA? Right?

-Hugh

[Mike Brooks]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 5:54:58 PM UTC-5, Gregg Ballou wrote:

> Bob with the women pilot outrage over an illustration of a normal woman asking a normal man a common soaring related question how many men are going to be willing to help out at future WSPA events? The chance of giving offense to that crowd is demonstrably astronomical. You don't need to defund the WSPA the ladies likely killed it off themselves.

Gregg -

I helped crew when SoaringNV hosted the 2015 WSPA Seminar at Minden. Had a great time and met some fine folks, as you do at glider meets. If the opportunity arises, I'll be happy to do so again.

Mike

[Waveguru]

I believe that a person has a choice to be offended or not. I don't believe that it is acceptable to call people names. It is a lazy way to debate an issue.

“The more easily you get offended, the less developed you are as a human being.”
― Robert Celner

"Every day we have plenty of opportunities to get angry, stressed or offended. But what you're doing when you indulge these negative emotions is giving something outside yourself power over your happiness. You can choose to not let little things upset you." Joel Osteen

"When you are spiritually connected, you are not looking for occasions to be offended, and you are not judging and labeling others. You are in a state of grace in which you know you are connected to God and thus free from the effects of anyone or anything external to yourself." Wayne Dyer

Boggs

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Hugh, please do not speculate about my way of life, actually it is very good, I worked for it! Feminazi is not a term as offensive as sexist, you need to really understand the term and origin before you speculate on the offensive use of it. When I see a way of life threatened by such a few that only have the purpose of supporting their own agenda I take notice and respond. You may go ahead and drink the Cool-Aid, but I will stand on firm ground and look at things objectively. So what is the difference in the complainant's using the word sexist and me referring to them as Feminazis? I guess when I refer to those as Feminazis, those whom want equality, it is in your opinion sexist. I appreciate your opinion, thank you very much, Bob

[Hugh Grandstaff]

> >
So what is the difference in the complainant's using the word sexist and me referring to them as Feminazis?

Just going out on a limb here, but probably the "Nazi" part.

-Hugh

[Steve Bralla]

From Wikipedea about Goddwins law.
There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress.[8] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.[9]

[John Godfrey (QT)]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 7:36:52 PM UTC-4, Steve Bralla wrote:
> From Wikipedea about Goddwins law.
> There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress.[8] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.[9]

What a really sad state of affairs that most of the posters in this thread show absolutely no evidence of empathy (i.e. the capacity to see things through other's eyes) wrt the complainers. Very disappointing to me. The ad was bad enough in that it pours salt on open wounds, the "mansplaining" of the posters is off the wall.

[Hugh Grandstaff]

> What a really sad state of affairs that most of the posters in this thread show absolutely no evidence of empathy (i.e. the capacity to see things through other's eyes) wrt the complainers. Very disappointing to me. The ad was bad enough in that it pours salt on open wounds, the "mansplaining" of the posters is off the wall.

Totally agree that's bad, John. But I'm more concerned, oh, I don't know, about the fact that we have people on here:

1) calling women "childless corporate whores" without any remorse
2) saying a woman would "look better if she kept her mouth shut"
3) indicating that the women who took the time to voice their discomfort should apologize to effectively everyone they have ever encountered in aviation
4) asking each of the women that voiced their discomfort "what they had done for soaring"
5) said "what these females have done is dig a big hole, I don't think they have a shovel big enough to dig their way out."
6) said "It would be great if all women could be subservient and get my slippers and a beer"
7) oh...and the whole nazi/fascist rhetoric.

All of this because there were women who said "I didn't like that ad for these reasons."

People on here compared women to Nazis, Fascists, whores, and wished they were more subservient because they were willing to voice their discomfort about an advertisement.

I'll say that again.

People on here compared women to Nazis, Fascists, whores, and wished they were more subservient because they were willing to voice their discomfort about an advertisement.

And not a single person who made those statements has said "maybe that was over the line." Not one of them.

That's what I'm concerned about.

[andy l]

With respect to the last point, I really can't see why most people would take this person's complaints seriously

It's almost like a satirical spoof, sending up such misogynistic attitudes, except apparently sincere

[Chip Bearden]

We could debate whether the SSF ad was an unfortunate attempt at retro advertising--along the lines of "show her it's a man's world [with Van Heusen ties]"--that fell flat or if it were something more objectionable and sinister. It almost doesn't matter. In the old days, if we inadvertently offended or insulted someone, the obligatory response was to apologize, listen to the other person, and promise to learn and do better in the future. How quaint.

I read Bob's outraged howls that the women who complained to the SSA were threatening the existence of his way of life:

* ...an orchestrated attack on the publication , Editor, and the SSF. [an obvious conspiracy; the Russians? Chinese? Iranians?]
* The complainants are without merit, totally offbase and have a directive in place that only undermines the overall objective of the SSA, SSF, and Editor. [see "obvious conspiracy"; maybe we should refer this to the FBI]
* You would think that this bunch of misfits, have no understanding of how this is an inclusive activity and not directed by any one gender. ["Damnit, woman, do you not understand English? Get it through your sensitive skull that we're inclusive!"]

I waited for someone to slap him down for being more over the top than the letters themselves. Instead, this whole affair turned out to be a litmus test that revealed much more about male pilots' cluelessness, resentment, and anger at women than the ad did about women's allegedly delicate sensitivities:

* Somebody's gain is turned up WAY TOO HIGH! [read: "Calm down, little lady, we were just having some fun"]
* ...due to an insecure and suspicious attitude that the person asking feels inferior [if women weren't so insecure, this wouldn't be a problem]
* ...have become weak and lost focus on what is important, wasting time on petty stuff [yeah, this mutual respect stuff is pretty f***ing petty]
* ...Feminazi organizers whose mission was only to create conflict. This Femitifa approach should not be tolerated, solution, defund the WSPA as part or association with the SSA. [see "obvious conspiracy" theory, above; hey, maybe Nancy Pelosi is behind it]
* ...pretty butch [that didn't take long; the women writing in must be shrill, angry, man-hating Lesbians]
* ...what have you done for soaring? [I'll leave others to list the many female SSA members who have made enormous contributions as instructors, tow pilots, club members, SSA directors and officers, competitors, world record holders, gliderport owners/operators, and contest organizers, just to mention a few]
* ...what these females have done is dig a big hole, I don't think they have a shovel big enough to dig their way out. [true, an enormous hole has been dug, but not by the women who wrote in to register their concern]
* Getting upset today over something that happened decades ago, and was mainstream at the time, is simply someone wanting to stir up bad feelings. [insert alternative advert with a joke about limiting soaring clubs to whites only because, hey, segregation was mainstream decades ago]

Then, like a drunken frat party gone bad, things got mean:

* Any bitch who straps on a parachute... [finally, the "b" word! can the "c" word be far behind?]
* "You think it's offensive. I think it's funny. [should be fun next year sitting around the fire at New Castle exchanging hilarious jokes about women, Pollacks, blacks, Mexicans, Asians, Muslims, Jews, etc.]
* Oh, now the nuclear bomb - thanks A LOT, Linda. So, are you also going to take names and excommunicate pilots who disagree with you/Linda? [translation: "I don't give a f*** if you're angry, Linda; get your ass in that towplane and give me a tow"; very smooth, Tom]
* Reverting to the old boycott theory of punishment will further taint others opinions... [since when is it a boycott for one individual to decline to do business with a bunch of giggling, sophomoric, misogynistic, semi-literate, yuk-yuk, redneck louts? (relax, boys, I was just joking, sorry if you took offense)]
* And the woman in the ad would be more attractive if she had kept her mouth shut. [I'll have to remember that technique, Gregg--tell her she's ugly and she'll shut up]

And then more wisdom from the same source:

* Men are tired of this nonsense, threatening to stay away sounds too good to be true. [I suspect you'll be a lot happier now after expressing your views, Gregg]

Several others objected but most just piled on.

* "Much Ado About Nothing" [first prize for Most Succinct Cluelessness]
* The reality is the ladies were good sticks and way hotter! [if you're worried that you might have offended a female pilot, telling her she's hot is a guaranteed get-out-of-jail-free card; trust me!]
* ...if you think being a childless corporate whore is better than being a stay at home mother you need to talk to some honest women. [this is wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to explain it, but it wouldn't be a discussion about gender roles if some man didn't use the term "whore". I'm waiting for "slut" to make its appearance, perhaps to describe any woman presumptuous enough to aspire to a career instead of sitting at home cooking for her hubby, grateful for all he has done for her.]

And then there's the "I ain't never had no complaints" defense:
* "I've met both complainant and the SSA President, both at the WSPA seminar at Black Forest in the early 90s and got along just fine with both."

If only these guys knew what was being said about them behind their backs. One evening at a contest some years ago, I listened incredulously as a top-ranked pilot explained how his daughter, a successful professional, avoided discrimination by simply refusing to put up with it. He was amazed that women were getting so upset about something that was so easy to blunt. I looked over at several women competing in the contest and they just smiled. But as soon as this pilot left, they exploded in scornful laughter and indignation at how totally out of touch this guy was with what goes on in the workplace and society. He's highly thought of, a very good pilot, and has done much for soaring. But in his mind, discrimination and harrassment apparently only occur if women allow it. I'm sure these two successful career women have dealt with discrimination and harrassment in one form or another a lot. But I also suspect they choose to keep quiet and "get along just fine" with male pilots because they don't want to rock the boat or get labeled with any of the words and phrases above.

In my humble opinion, the SSF ad was likely a well-intentioned effort that misfired, and one that the SSA moved swiftly to address. But this thread is one of the most embarrassing things I've ever read in my 55 years in soaring. For many of those years, I've acknowledged that the notion that soaring pilots are an exceptionally fine group glosses over the reality that our sport has all types--including jerks--just like any other sport or activity. But I've never seen a worse public display by so many male soaring pilots as I've seen here.

I'm not perfect. I've made my share of insensitive, offensive remarks. That said, I think political correctness and wokeness have gone too far in some cases. But then I read something like this and realize we have a LONG way to go.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Cindy Brickner]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 8:19:12 PM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

> > > Now about defunding the WSPA,

Tough to do. The ladies raise their own funds, very effectively.
(And with support from some fellows who see assisting women into pilot roles as worthwhile.)
And the ladies grow their membership in WSPA too.

> With respect to the last point, I really can't see why most people would take this person's complaints seriously
> It's almost like a satirical spoof, sending up such misogynistic attitudes, except apparently sincere

These persons.... plural. And plenty publicly, and repetitively.

I have seen female pilot prejudice myself, first-hand and ugly, on many occasions.
Perhaps the most entertaining was wandering into a glider FBO (~20 years ago), at
a prestigious western soaring site, and being asked if I would like to peruse the
glider jewelry counter.
I was staring at the rental rates and thinking about flying while a customer of mine
completed a glider pre-buy inspection.
"While "your guy" is flying, maybe you'd like to choose a bauble as compensation?"
I was first surprised I wasn't recognized, then realized that in my glider contest T-shirt,
I was in the minority -- still -- and being treated like a non-pilot perhaps non-customer.
Rather than become a flaming witch, I demurred. The lady tow/glider pilot with me got outside
without busting her seams, and asked why I went so low key.
I said it wasn't worth the fight that day. I was on a rare road trip, and wanted to relax.
Thoughtless, unintentional, myopic -- but a prejudicial view of women in his lobby.

I am warmed by the long term male friends who at least ( and several with much more effort)
posted to say that it was worth listening to hurt feelings. To make an effort
to understand. A few posted who I might enjoy meeting and befriending.
Personally, I read right past the ad. Perhaps I have become teflon-coated
and inured to the possibility that men and women will view each other as equals.

Do I like strident and contentious confrontations over perceptions in all of society now?
No.
Do I think the letters by women in Soaring were 'pushing an agenda"?
Only one of awareness, and expressing dismay.
Do I like the escalation/aggravation that this thread will create amongst males and females?
No.
Do I think the soaring population is so vast that it can suffer these internal slaps with zero repercussions?
No. At the least, it will hurt some friendships.


Mostly, I concentrate on teaching new people to soar. I try to make them feel safe
as a student, free to ask any questions without ridicule. Even today, I said several times,
"I don't know -- is a safe answer." I was blessed to have two men and two women
( one a 13 year old girl) as early students. 6 flights, one a soaring flight of 1.2 hrs,
and climb rates of 300-500 fpm. Two hawks and a gaggle of buzzards. The teenager
got to dance across the thermal from her host/friend while he climbed the 1-26.
She videoed it.
Those are the moments I hold in close and dear.
The rest I try to let blow away on the dust.

I don't care about correct attribution of the aphorism,
but maybe this is why women have avoided this thread.
Don't wrestle with the pigs. You just get dirty and they like it.

Few men are 'pigs'. But those few might cloud the perception of swine.

Cindy B

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Please let me issue an apology for referring to the women whom objected to the caption in the magazine as misfits, my choice of words was incorrect and I should have used the word radicals, for that mistake I truly apologize.
Often different points of view, or perspectives are overlooked just by pure mistake, but the consensus that the SSA and others were insensitive is not correct. I have spoken with several women about this depiction and the assertion that it was insensitive and sexist and the findings are to the contrary. Of about 20 or so women whom I have shown the depiction to and also the complaints not a single woman has see the sexist depiction of the print.
For your information my wife is a sailplane pilot, single engine pilot and multi engine pilot. She was hired once to help defend a lawsuit brought about by the plaintiff who asserted that the aircraft was beyond the individuals capability causing him and his instructor passenger to perish in a nice King Air. When approached she was told of the incident and asked to fly and do the same maneuvers as the lost pilots. She never looked at this as sexist, she looked at it as an opportunity.
Now you are certainly entitled to make any remarks that you seem appropriate in regard to my original post, I will not apologize for my opinions, nor do I expect you to apologize for yours, we just look at things differently.
What I do think is that we agree on some of the issues that were exposed in this thread, the pendulum has swung way too far in both directions. I remember seeing the pink Cadillac and the Mary Kay sign on the door, I guess that those are now sexist? Or what about the day when the decision was made to have bi-gender restrooms and then the sign was placed above the urinal for all men to lower the seat when finished, shouldn't the sign have read, Ladies, please raise the seat when you are finished. Would that not have been more appropriate in this world void of sexism.
I towed probably 15 gliders yesterday, both genders, not once did I say to myself or others as to their abilities because of their gender. As I looked at the mirrors I was more concerned about their safety than I was mine! Oh, and by the way, I think my wife is a member of the WSPA, she will outwork any male at the club, move gliders in and out of the hangar, and gets in her fiberglass glider just like yours and can fly as well or better than any male counterpart.
SO, I hope you and others that disagree have a better understanding about different perceptions. I wish you well, stay healthy and enjoy flying your sailplane. Bob

[xcnick]

This picture is the earliest picture I can find of the gang of girls, 1939 Wiesbaden. Hard to imagine just a generation later, but the women in the picture had to fight for the vote, equal pay, and other important human rights. However I always wondered what they were thinking when they quietly endured face to face discrimination. One day I asked the woman on the far left and she said: “living well is my best revenge.”

https://photos.app.goo.gl/rDrC7aLiV5rkXpKf7

[John Godfrey (QT)]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 6:40:46 AM UTC-4, xcnick wrote:
> This picture is the earliest picture I can find of the gang of girls, 1939 Wiesbaden. Hard to imagine just a generation later, but the women in the picture had to fight for the vote, equal pay, and other important human rights. However I always wondered what they were thinking when they quietly endured face to face discrimination. One day I asked the woman on the far left and she said: “living well is my best revenge.”
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/rDrC7aLiV5rkXpKf7

What Cindy, Hugh and Chip said (and much more articulately and on point than my try).

[Gregg Ballou]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 6:40:46 AM UTC-4, xcnick wrote:

> This picture is the earliest picture I can find of the gang of girls, 1939 Wiesbaden. Hard to imagine just a generation later, but the women in the picture had to fight for the vote, equal pay, and other important human rights. However I always wondered what they were thinking when they quietly endured face to face discrimination. One day I asked the woman on the far left and she said: “living well is my best revenge.”
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/rDrC7aLiV5rkXpKf7

Exactly women have been flying since the beginning of flying. Women flying in modern times are not pioneers, they are just pilots. And to be outraged over that illustration is almost as retarded as defending the outrage.

[Hugh Grandstaff]

> Exactly women have been flying since the beginning of flying. Women flying in modern times are not pioneers, they are just pilots. And to be outraged over that illustration is almost as retarded as defending the outrage.

So that makes it ok to refer to them as "childless corporate whores" and say that they would be more attractive if they kept their mouth's shut, Gregg?

[Go Soaring]

You really can see why they send Borat to the US of A to make films. Some
of you really are the gift that just keeps giving.

Oh, I know he's not real. !!!!!

[Cindy Brickner]

"that they would be more attractive if they kept their mouth's shut, XXXX?"

I opened my mouth, and it was suggested this would be a way to redirect
the triple dog dare . . . . .

If you have been offended either way in this thread,
you should know you have an option for a more productive outcome,
rather than spewing dissonance.

https://tinyurl.com/y6n9sxzk

WSPA is always thankful for contributions. They can be general, or specific
to any WSPA program. WSPA has no paid staff, and is a 501 c)3 organization.
https://womensoaring.org/

Thank you to my many male and female customers, students and friends over the years.
Many generous people have given time, equipment and dollars to my pilotage.
Without their love of soaring, I wouldn't have been able to make a living in
this sport for many years.

Cindy B

[B BRIONES]

Chip,

"...have become weak and lost focus on what is important, wasting time on petty stuff [yeah, this mutual respect stuff is pretty f***ing petty]"

1. There is no need to use swear words to make your point (asterisks do not hide the real word).

2. I have not and will not support anything that promotes disrespecting women.

3. I do not think there was any "malicious attempt" by the ad submitter to squeeze in a sexist nostalgic ad. Nowadays, everyone is super conscious not to do anything to offend anyone, where even innocent things may be deemed evil.

4. I showed my wife the image and she did NOT find anything objectionable with it.

5. And yes, I still stand firmly by my opinion "...have become weak and lost focus on what is important, wasting time on petty stuff". -> America, as a nation is destroying itself from within. We will NOT need our enemies (Russia, Iran, N Korea, etc.) to do it for us. If there is anything to worry, whine, or complain about, there are much bigger things than the image in question.

[Hugh Grandstaff]

Just to make sure I clearly understand your positions here:

A group of women write to the editors of a small magazine expressing their displeasure at an advertisement. They are taken seriously, and a considerate apology is published in the same magazine.

-"America has lost focus on what is important and is wasting time on petty stuff! America, as a nation is destroying itself from within. We will NOT need our enemies (Russia, Iran, N Korea, etc.) to do it for us. If there is anything to worry, whine, or complain about, there are much bigger things than the image in question."

Somebody uses asterisks in place of writing what you consider fowl language (because clearly the word was duck...see what I did there?)

-"THERE IS NO NEED TO USE SWEAR WORDS TO MAKE YOUR POINT"

People on here compared women to Nazis, Fascists, whores, and wished they were more subservient because they were willing to voice their discomfort about an advertisement.

-"........................"

Did I get that right?

[xcnick]

Dan emailed me about the women in the picture. Sorry buddy, but couldn't get through your spam filter. However:

This is a group photo at a gathering of women soaring pilots for a building workshop. They are holding a rudder that has yet to be covered. These ladies are from many nations making me think their loyalty to each other is greater than the dangerous nationalism sweeping the world at this time.

There was only one true femanazi. But man, did she have a nice whip!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/18NbBTdNCugviDLt6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3WqHnp1p3Epz1itZ7

[Chip Bearden]

Unhappy with this discussion? (tired doesn't count) Vaguely troubled by some of the things said but worried about losing your "man" card by defending a bunch of shrill, hypersensitive harpies determined to knock down the SSA on the way to installing AOC in the White House and rolling up the U.S. as the next bastion of socialism, presaging North Korea's annexation of California? [OK, I might have gotten a little carried away].

Uncomfortable with the message that women are welcome in soaring only so long as they're attractive (I should probably have listed this last), undemanding, non-threatening, and grateful?

No need to post anything or go on record. This is America: you can BUY your way out of feeling guilty. Make a contribution to the WSPA. Cindy's post has the link (above).

Yeah, I know some of you already did in the recent past. The difference? This donation will not specifically be earmarked for the U.S. Team. That was easy: we all knew they had a good chance of getting on the medal stand in Australia (which was the case).

This would be for women who don't [yet] make the headlines. They're just ordinary people interested in soaring who enjoy the company of other soaring pilots who have faced similar challenges. And after some of the disturbing opinions expressed in this thread, I'm sure many of them would be reassured that the majority of male soaring pilots are welcoming, even if we occasionally stumble unintentionally.

Chip Bearden
JB

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Chip, you got more than carried away, you fell into the trap. No need to apologize, you obviously are a good person with your own perceptions, we all have those. Go ahead and slap me down, it has been done before, we met many years ago and I always reflected on your mild gentlemanly personality.
I do not feel any differently about your love for soaring, or your advocation of what we both enjoy, I hope you feel no differently about me. My main objective has been to advance the activity of soaring, hopefully I have done a pretty good job of that. Of those whom know me will tell you that I have soaring in my best interest and not my personal agenda.
I could always take my toys and go home, but advancing and giving back seems to be my agenda at this stage of life. Hopefully after tomorrow I can say Just look at what we did, I will explain later, not on this forum, but privately.
Making assertations of sexism had no place in soaring, that agenda went out a long time ago and that is what most are saying. Many continue to bloviate and cast many views of disparity, but actually we are all on the same page. I think no less of you , I hope you feel no less of me, we just share opposite opinions. I did tow again today and the female, no, I will say lady did better than anyone. Bob

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 3:11:38 AM UTC-4, Cindy Brickner wrote:

> I have seen female pilot prejudice myself, first-hand and ugly, on many occasions.
> Perhaps the most entertaining was wandering into a glider FBO (~20 years ago), at
> a prestigious western soaring site, and being asked if I would like to peruse the
> glider jewelry counter.
> I was staring at the rental rates and thinking about flying while a customer of mine
> completed a glider pre-buy inspection.
> "While "your guy" is flying, maybe you'd like to choose a bauble as compensation?"
> I was first surprised I wasn't recognized, then realized that in my glider contest T-shirt,
> I was in the minority -- still -- and being treated like a non-pilot perhaps non-customer.
> Rather than become a flaming witch, I demurred. The lady tow/glider pilot with me got outside
> without busting her seams, and asked why I went so low key.
> I said it wasn't worth the fight that day. I was on a rare road trip, and wanted to relax.
> Thoughtless, unintentional, myopic -- but a prejudicial view of women in his lobby.

Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8

[Chip Bearden]

> Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.
>
> T8

Evan, next time, try it the new enlightened way: warmly and without a trace of condescension or presumption, inquire of Cindy for more details about what happened and how she conducted herself that day before judging (and insulting) her. Your assumption that this was somehow her fault says everything about what's wrong with this thread.

Years ago (OK, decades), I showed up for a big spring contest with my new ASW 24 after being out of soaring for a few years. I had met the contest manager in the past but he didn't seem to remember me because when I asked about tiedown spots, he brushed me off fairly rudely. I was a little startled but, hey, this was his contest so I stepped back. About that time, Rudy Mozer came rushing over and greeted me like a long-lost friend (which we were; we went back to the 1960s). All of a sudden, the contest manager was treating me like a VIP. :) I thought it was funny. But if every time I showed up for a contest I had to explain I was a pilot and not a spectator, it would probalby get old pretty soon. I hope I would behave properly each time but I also hope I would be forgiven for occasionally expressing frustration, not that anything Cindy said implied that she did so in this case.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Tango Eight]

Hey Chip:

You are imagining a whole truckload of stuff that just ain't true.

My suggestion to Cindy was honest, forthright and made in 100% good faith. I have done just as I have suggested myself (slights can happen to men too, as your own experience confirms). It worked great. I have witnesses.

T8

[Brian Lott]

Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?

[dale bush]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 10:13:29 PM UTC-7, Brian Lott wrote:
> Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?

The ad could best described as tone deaf. That was obviously not the intent, but it was the result. Male chauvinism is often subtle, and men are not particularly skilled in recognizing its presence. Pointing out chauvinistic behavior is the role of women, and that is what happened here. I say bravo! for them and shame on their detractors.

[Gregg Ballou]

What is chauvinistic about the ad? If that ad is unacceptable in Soaring magazine then how can they publish any images of humans? If a women solos and there is a post flight photo of a male instructor congratulating her would that be as bad as the ad? Worse? How would anyone but these few women know a photo was offensive before publishing? I look forward to Soaring magazine with blue dots over the heads of people that have made soaring achievements and pixelated fuzziness on the canopies of flying gliders. Maybe not blue dots those are from the 80's and might offend, instead NPC emoticons over everyone's head. NPC emoticons are more with the times and more appropriate for our community.

[Michael Westbrook]

I mean if you don't think you're chauvinistic by calling women "childless corporate whores" or telling them they'd be "more attractive by keeping their mouth shut", you probably wont get it?

Growing up at the gliderport, my club hosted the WSPA Seminar when I was 13. I had the opportunity to meet women from across the country with varied backgrounds and a single common interest - soaring. Since that time, my first practical test was with a female DPE, I've flown a contest in a double seater with a woman who is now an accomplished Army aviator, I've flown with a female teammate at the Junior Worlds that is now a director at one of the largest defense contractors in the country and shared thermals with several others at clubs and contests around the world. Professionally, I've worked with several corporate pilots who happen to be female as well. They come in and do their job, meet the standards as set out by the FAA - just like everyone else is expected to. Some are single, some are married, some are divorced. Some have kids, some do not. They're living their life as they see fit.

Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.

Mike Westbrook

[Gregg Ballou]

That is a lot of words Mike, now try again and explain what is chauvinistic about the ad in Soaring magazine. Anyone? Not my responses, the original ad, what was chauvinistic about the original Soaring ad that set these women off? Spell it out. Since the ad was outrageous enough to generate multiple complaints it should be easy to explain. Even if I am unable to get it you may enlighten some other RAS readers and win new allies.