Boy Who Flew With Condors - Dick Johnson? Other Comments

[ContestID67]

I finally got around to watching this 1967 movie which I bought on
eBay more than a month ago. It was surprisingly well done. Not that
Walt ever put out a bad product, his production values were always top
notch. However, when the popular media shows soaring, I often see
realism and accuracy go right out the cockpit window, maybe especially
via Hollywood and their non-accuracy for the sake of making a movie
that sells (Thomas Crown Affair nonwithstanding). Anyway, it was a
pretty good show and I can imagine that watching this as a kid could
easily have gotten you bitten by the soaring bug.

Some general comments, questions and ramblings. Warning - there are
movie spoilers below (no pun intended);

* There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.
* While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
exist or were they simply Hollywood actors? If real, did they do
their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
* I caught tail numbers for the 1-26 and 2-22 flown in the movie.
N2788Z and N8658R respectively. According to the NTSB the 1-26 is
currently owned by Paul Fuller and appears to still be flying in
Powell, OH. The 2-22 is currently owned by Craig Stanford and appears
to also still be flying in Beaverton, WA. I wonder if they know they
own famous gliders?
* The release from tow was shown as the standard tow plane goes left
and glider goes right. Except, that is, in the case of Chris' first
solo in which the tow plane goes right and the glider goes straight
ahead. Was the release flight path a standard as far back as 1964 or
was it less regimented back then?
* Chris gets his Silver, Gold and Diamond during the movie (pretty
impressive kid). They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
nomenclature. What did the C stand for? Is this nomenclature still
used outside the US?
* Leslie Nielson is the narrator and the only person credited in the
titles. My son only knows Leslie from his movie spoofs and was
surprised that he actually ever had serious roles (reference
"Forbidden Planet")
* Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
a 200 foot rope? Can you actually stand up-right immediately
following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26? ;-) Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
you.

Thanks, John

[Paul Remde]

Hi John,

Some of the answers to your question are available on my web site, along
with many screen captures from the movie. I enjoy the movie very much.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/videos.htm#BoyWhoFlewWithCondors

I can't answer all your questions, but my guess is that the scene where the
towplane goes right and the glider goes left was a shot that was mirrored
(flipped horizontally) for some reason. Meaning that the glider and
towplane flew the correct directions, but the editor switched the directions
by flipping the film to make it flow better with the next scene, or...?

I just love the scene with the water landing...

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"ContestID67" <jo...@derosaweb.com> wrote in message
news:a5d39d9d-3a09-44eb...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[Bill Daniels]

I recall Fred Harris, who flew the actual stunt, saying he was astonished
how fast the 2-22 stopped - and sank. Fred was worried that it might "water
ski" across the pond and collide with obstacles on the opposite shore.

"Paul Remde" <pa...@remde.us> wrote in message
news:2n3tk.315629$yE1.188172@attbi_s21...

[sisu1a]

The pilot was Al Parker and the ship was a Sisu 1A . It was the
world's first 1000km flight, and the plane is now in the Smithsonian.
Flight was from Odessa TX to Kimball NE. See:
www.eaglebrandproducts.com/N6390X/ for more details

Dick's ship was the RJ-5, and that was in 1951 and the record stood 13
years. see:
http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=274
A great guy indeed, and is already sorely missed by this pilot.

-Paul

[Bill Daniels]

It might interest some that a key connection that led to the Disney doing
"Boy Who flew With Condors" was Bob Gurr. IIRC, Bob was president of the
Orange County Soaring Association at the time. I think he still owns and
flies a Taifun 17E.

Bob Gurr was very close to Walt Disney and served as his "Chief Imagineer"
who designed almost all the rides at Disneyland. Google "Bob Gurr - Disney"
for some facinating background on Bob.

[Peter Wyld]

Bronze/Silver/Gold 'C' --> Certificate

[John Smith]

> They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
> nomenclature. What did the C stand for?

This originates from the stone age of soaring on the Wasserkuppe in the
1920ies. Fritz Stamer developed a pilot training syllabus which
contained an A, B and C test and the respective badges (one, two and
three seagulls) which the pilots wore with pride. The respective
requirements for those tests changed over time, in the beginning, the A
test was something like a 10 seconds flight or some such. In the
beginning the C test was the pilot's licence, later an official licence
was added. BTW, in Germany the A, B and C tests are still in use, the C
sometimes also called the "bronze C".

As soaring evolved, the "Silver C" badge was introduced. Wolf Hirth was
the first to receive that badge in 1931.

Even later Gold C and the diamonds were added to keep up with the progress.

[John Smith]

>> They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"

Addendum: There is no such thing as a "Diamond C". You add the diamonds
to your existing C-Badge. So you own the Gold C with one, two or three
diamonds.

[gary...@sbcglobal.net]

> * Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
> a 200 foot rope?  Can you actually stand up-right immediately
> following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26?  ;-)  Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
> you.
>
> Thanks, John

I once thermalled away from a 300 ft auto tow in a 1-26

[Nyal Williams]

At 13:11 27 August 2008, gary...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> * Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on

>> a 200 foot rope? =A0Can you actually stand up-right immediately
>> following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26? =A0;-) =A0Ahhh, that's Hollywood

>for
>> you.
>>
>> Thanks, John
>
>I once thermalled away from a 300 ft auto tow in a 1-26

He was young!

I did 6:49 in a TG-3A to complete the silver badge and could hardly stand
up at the end of that, but I was pushing 40 at the time. A 1-26 is more
comfortable than the plank seat of the TG.
>

[matt...@gmail.com]

On Aug 27, 9:11 am, "garyk...@sbcglobal.net" <garyk...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

My instructor did his Silver C flight in a Schweitzer 1-19 off a 400'
winch tow.
I think the winch was a Model A -- I've seen it at the National
Soaring Museum.

[raulb]

On Aug 26, 7:06 pm, ContestID67 <j...@derosaweb.com> wrote:
> I finally got around to watching this 1967 movie

> Anyway, it was a
> pretty good show and I can imagine that watching this as a kid could
> easily have gotten you bitten by the soaring bug.

That is where I got my first introduction. It was years before I ever
actually got my first flight, however.

> * There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
> over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska

Al Parker, in a Sisu.

> * While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
> are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
> exist or were they simply Hollywood actors?

I know that Chris did much of his own flying (obviously not all of
it), and actually got his license. I think the girl (Margaret?) also
was a pilot, at least for a while.

> * The release from tow was shown as the standard tow plane goes left
> and glider goes right.  Except, that is, in the case of Chris' first
> solo in which the tow plane goes right and the glider goes straight
> ahead.

Probably ether Hollywood or someone reversed the negative. Sometimes
Hollywood does things for effect not because it is supposed to be done
one way or the other.

> * Chris gets his Silver, Gold and Diamond during the movie (pretty
> impressive kid).  They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
> nomenclature.  What did the C stand for?  Is this nomenclature still
> used outside the US?

I was not flying in those days, but it used to be common for people to
refer to the "Silver C" and "Gold C." In fact, you still occasionally
hear someone say "Silver C." I don't think I have ever heard anyone
talk about a "Diamond C."

> * Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
> a 200 foot rope?  Can you actually stand up-right immediately
> following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26?  ;-)  Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
> you.

A group of us did a camp-out and auto tow expedition on El Mirage Dry
Lake about 12 years ago. We had a somewhat longer rope, maybe 500
ft. No one could stay up but Taras Kicinik (sp?) got in Wayne Spani's
K-8, took a tow, and we didn't see him for about 2-3 hours. People
were getting pretty worried. But he was fine and had flown all the
way to the mountains and back.

[John Smith]

raulb wrote:

> I was not flying in those days, but it used to be common for people to
> refer to the "Silver C" and "Gold C." In fact, you still occasionally
> hear someone say "Silver C."

Yes, in fact, you do: http://www.fai.org/gliding/sc3.2.1

[alc...@gmail.com]

> * While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
> are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
> exist or were they simply Hollywood actors?  If real, did they do
> their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).

The girl was real and her name was Margaret Birsner. She was the
daughter
of J.W. Birsner, M.D., a well known radiologist from Bakersfield. I
never met Margaret
and don't know where she is now, but I did meet J.W. Birsner when I
worked in the
same hospital for a while, and he was very proud of her
accomplishments.

[alc...@gmail.com]

> * While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
> are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
> exist or were they simply Hollywood actors? If real, did they do
> their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).

I found this link that mentions some more about Chris Jury. He got
his diamond altitude at the age of 14 on Apr. 5 1964, it says.
Sadly,
it also mentions he lost his life in a power plane crash in the 1970s.

http://www.geocities.com/smpa...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm

[alc...@gmail.com]

> http://www.geocities.com/smpawl...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm

That link did not copy correctly, it should have been:
http://www.geocities.com/smpa...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm

I just received my copy of "The Boy Who Flew With Condors"

I have another piece of "Boy Who Flew With Condors" trivia from the
far
reaches of my remote memory -
Who knows the name of the flag man
in the winch launch scene from the Torrey Pines sequence?

Hint: He is also in this beautiful picture on the cover or "Soaring".
http://soaringweb.org/Soaring_Index/1971/1971Feb_full.jpg

[alc...@gmail.com]

On Sep 4, 9:00 am, alc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 27, 4:11 pm, alc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > * While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
> > > are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
> > > exist or were they simply Hollywood actors?  If real, did they do
> > > their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
>
> > I found this link that mentions some more about Chris Jury.  He got
> > his diamond altitude at the age of 14 on Apr. 5 1964,  it says.
> > Sadly,
> > it also mentions he lost his life in a power plane crash in the 1970s.
>
> > http://www.geocities.com/smpawl...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm
>
> That link did not copy correctly, it should have been:

> http://www.geocities.com/smpawl...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm

>
> I just received my copy of "The Boy Who Flew With Condors"
>
> I have another piece of "Boy Who Flew With Condors" trivia from the
> far
> reaches of my remote memory -
> Who knows the name of the flag man
> in the winch launch scene from the Torrey Pines sequence?
>
> Hint: He is also in this beautiful picture on the cover or "Soaring".http://soaringweb.org/Soaring_Index/1971/1971Feb_full.jpg

This dang thing keeps truncating that link - the truncated
part of the url smpawl... should be "smpawling"

[01-- Zero One]

Then use http://tinyurl.com/

 

Larry

 

 

 

 

[sisu1a]

> > > I have another piece of "Boy Who Flew With Condors" trivia from the
> > > far
> > > reaches of my remote memory -
> > > Who knows the name of the flag man
> > > in the winch launch scene from the Torrey Pines sequence?
>
> > > Hint: He is also in this beautiful picture on the cover or "Soaring".http://soaringweb.org/Soaring_Index/1971/1971Feb_full.jpg
>
> > This dang thing keeps truncating that link - the truncated
> > part of the url smpawl... should be "smpawling"
>
> Then usehttp://tinyurl.com/
>
> Larry

http://tinyurl.com/54rgph

[alc...@gmail.com]

On Sep 4, 9:00 am, alc...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Aug 27, 4:11 pm, alc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > * While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
> > > are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
> > > exist or were they simply Hollywood actors?  If real, did they do
> > > their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
>
> > I found this link that mentions some more about Chris Jury.  He got
> > his diamond altitude at the age of 14 on Apr. 5 1964,  it says.
> > Sadly,
> > it also mentions he lost his life in a power plane crash in the 1970s.
>
> > http://www.geocities.com/smpawl...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm
>
> That link did not copy correctly, it should have been:

> http://www.geocities.com/smpawl...@sbcglobal.net/jury004.htm

>
> I just received my copy of "The Boy Who Flew With Condors"
>
> I have another piece of "Boy Who Flew With Condors" trivia from the
> far
> reaches of my remote memory -
> Who knows the name of the flag man
> in the winch launch scene from the Torrey Pines sequence?
>
> Hint: He is also in this beautiful picture on the cover or "Soaring".http://soaringweb.org/Soaring_Index/1971/1971Feb_full.jpg

It's been over a week and nobody has answered, so I'll tell you - His
name
is John Dickson. He was an instructor for the AGCSC club at Torrey
Pines
and Elsinore. Sadly, I understand
he is among the list of those in the movie that are no longer with us.
A cool
guy, he later got more into Skydiving at the Elsinore Paracenter -
probably not
enough adrenaline to satisfy him in Soaring. I was one of his
students. One
day at Elsinore, I drank a grape soda and ate a chocolate ice cream
cone
and then went flying in the front seat of the 2-22 with him in the
back. I got
sick and barfed up the partially digested mixture of the grape soda
and chocolate
cone. We had no sick sack, so I had to open the canopy and let it
go over the side. It made a nice pattern as it flowed down the side of
the 2-22. Quite a mess to clean up later. It spite of that, he
eventually soloed me.

[rw...@stkate.edu]

Old thread but I'm enjoying the movie. I stood up after a 5:35 flight and was happy to walk away from the Pilatus. Was 54 at the time, but my wife and I were training for triathlons and in pretty good shape. Took 3 water bottles with me, poured the last over my head too.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Boy who flew with condors youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqHXiaMhSIo

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 5:39:40 AM UTC-4, rw...@stkate.edu wrote:
> Old thread but I'm enjoying the movie.

How little has changed in 50 years.

[Robert Buck]

At 09:39 30 March 2016, rw...@stkate.edu wrote:
>Old thread but I'm enjoying the movie. I stood up after a 5:35 flight
and

>=

>was happy to walk away from the Pilatus. Was 54 at the time, but
my wife

>a=

>nd I were training for triathlons and in pretty good shape. Took 3
water

>b=

[Robert Buck]

At 16:47 30 March 2016, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>Boy who flew with condors youtube:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqHXiaMhSIo
>

More on "Boy Who Flew with the Condors." On Chris Jury, yes, as
mentioned, he flew and was the son of a TWA Captain. And yes,
sadly lost in a powered aircraft accident. Never met either, although
we were all circulating in the sport as youngsters about the same
time...I was East Coast, they West.
The movie was one of the reasons, as opinioned by Paul Schweizer,
that helped the late sixties surge in the sport. Other two were the
National Geographic article on the Reno 1966 Nationals, and Bob
Buck's articles in Air Facts Magazine/Reader's Digest.
On low saves, why couldn't you from 200 feet...if you really have to
try it? Hopefully you make a good call on what's smart...what's
not...for both the concept as well as how you, aircraft and weather
fit into the equation on that day, at that time. Chatted with a pilot at
the 1973 Liberal Nationals, the evening after he'd thermaled away
from 50 feet in an ASW-12. Yup...50 feet. Not off the wall, really, as
over a West Kansas section, not field, he ran into the lift on low final
and continued in a shallow bank knowing if it all quit he'd just level
out and land...stubble field. Well, finally coming around in a wide
360 he was 100 feet, and the process continued until thousands of
feet and on his way! Was flying the meet in our Libelle, and on
discussing it with him, remembering it a relatively calm day and it
actually all made sense! Simpler times, few gadgets, more stick
think. Do it today, wiser, older, and less sharp? Why?
On long cockpit sits in a 1-26, or any of those upright gliders of the
day, we didn't know any better, so did it. We were flying, man!
Marfa 1967, in a 1-23, averaged about 6+ hours a day for eight in
a row, with a couple pushing 8 hours. Of course I was 18, had a lot
of foam jammed between the chute and small of the back, but last
day was convinced I had a wound on my butt. Back still hurts
today...but wouldn't have traded the opportunity for the world!
Diamond C? We called them whatever. Three diamonds, diamond
badge, diamond C, etc. Figured when you earned it, you could call it
what you wished. Saw some who put diamonds on a Silver badge,
for the heck of it...could do it on a C badge if ya wanted...ya earned
it and the three diamonds told the story. Bronze C...back in '60's
didn't exist, so C Badge was same as today's Bronze C. Later, with
better gliders, stretched it out a bit. Unbelievable motivation when,
on landing in a 2-22 with C-Badge duration your instructor handed
you a C Badge, as Bernie Carris did to me in 1964 at Schweizers in
Elmira. Badges are still marvelous tools today, that if properly
presented and mentored, both compliments and encourages! RB-
Buck

[gkemp]

You would like my book Rob.

gary kemp

[BobW]

> On low saves, why couldn't you from 200 feet...if you really have to
> try it? Hopefully you make a good call on what's smart...what's
> not...for both the concept as well as how you, aircraft and weather
> fit into the equation on that day, at that time. Chatted with a pilot at
> the 1973 Liberal Nationals, the evening after he'd thermaled away
> from 50 feet in an ASW-12. Yup...50 feet. Not off the wall, really, as
> over a West Kansas section, not field, he ran into the lift on low final
> and continued in a shallow bank knowing if it all quit he'd just level
> out and land...stubble field. Well, finally coming around in a wide
> 360 he was 100 feet, and the process continued until thousands of
> feet and on his way! Was flying the meet in our Libelle, and on
> discussing it with him, remembering it a relatively calm day and it
> actually all made sense! Simpler times, few gadgets, more stick
> think.

I was newly into the sport at the time of the 1973 Liberal Nationals (which
occurred roughly coincident with achieving my license), and did my best to
pick the brains of my officemate, who was that ASW-12 pilot, upon his return
from a portion of the country to which I'd not then been. That particular save
was one of his vignettes from the contest. Lacking then the experience and
knowledge to be able to put the tale into any sensible perspective, I enjoyed
it as best I could and more or less promptly (well, except for the "height
warnings" inherent to the telling of the tale) forgot about it until now! I,
too, seem to remember it was told without bravado, but more a sense of
amazement at the differences to be (occasionally) found between soaring in the
mountains of Maryland and the plains of western Kansas.

With the perspective of years and improved geographic knowledge/experience, I
can better appreciate the tale now. Thin margins are thin margins, and always
to be seriously respected by Joe Pilot, but I've never seen in them a need to
universally, rigidly, apply someone else's sense of "safe" to the pilot world
at large. My lowest save was from 650' agl (Texas, above a WW-II field) and
lowest pattern entry ~400 feet (Texas, huge, disked half-section), and the
former was much tougher due to the 20+ knot wind roiling things up, whereas
the nearly-sunset latter was pretty much a breeze-free, "close your eyes and
wait" sort of approach to a pre-ordained safe touchdown (so long as flying
speed was maintained). I also witnessed a save from ~400' agl from the
downwind-to-base turn (Texas, again), and except for the height agl, it was
pretty much as described by the ASW-12 pilot...not "obviously and
TV-dramatically" dodgy at all due to its being prudently performed...though
distinctly unusual to vicariously experience because of the - by then
well-understood - thin margin. My anxiety meter was glad I knew who that
(conservative, prudent) pilot was, having by then seen many dodgier patterns
at each of my hop-scotched home fields. :)

I've sometimes tried to imagine my reaction to "The Boy Who Flew With Condors"
had I seen it before becoming a participant in the sport!

Bob W.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

There are many tails of Wally Scott thermaling away from a 200 foot auto tow.

[twe...@shaw.ca]

And of Dick Johnson wafting away from hanger top height, in a Skylark 4 I believe..

[agca...@gmail.com]

R Buck, thanks for the post. It also brought back many good old memories. That movie was one of the major influencers when I was a 14 year old kid learning in the 2-22. I felt I was in heaven the day I solo'd in the 1-26! 40 years later I ended up acquiring that self same 1-26 serial number 225 and am reworking all the badges.

As to low thermalling, I've made saves routinely from 200 ft. Its not the dangerous big deal that many make it out to be, and in the "old days" of flying low performance ships, its something of an essential skill needed if you intend to get anywhere xc. The issue is not "turns at low levels", its improper turns. I turn 8 to 14 hours a day, all day long at below 200 ft with an insainly high wing loading (2000 lbs of fertilizer) and I do it safely. Those that make arbitrary rules about thermalling are missing and stunting a natural progression of soaring education that should occur. Most that make these rules have never learned themselves.

Yes its a good starting place rule for new students. As a cfi-g I also discourage newby's and pilots with undeveloped airmanship from low saves. But at the same time we work and work and work on proper turning and recognizing "feeling" and knowing exactly what is happening in every portion of the turn, so when they find themselves in a "bind", they're not in a freak out sense of anxiety, they turn properly and either make a save or land out, neither of which is a big deal to the guy who is prepared.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 8:35:28 AM UTC-4, agca...@gmail.com wrote:

> As to low thermalling, I've made saves routinely from 200 ft. Its not the dangerous big deal that many make it out to be

It is a 'dangerous big deal' for the pilots who have died or been injured because they failed to make a low save.

[agca...@gmail.com]

Well son of flubber are you telling me that for every AG pilot out there who is turning all day long at very low levels, "its a big deal"?
Hardly, its what we do, what we need to do, and we have learned how to do it safely under conditions that are a whole lot more critical than circling a glider at 200 ft.

I really dont blame guys for having the "dont circle low" opinion. Guys just havent been exposed to it, or if they've seen it, what they saw was some guy floundering around in a panic. If you spend any time with one of the older masters of soaring, they will tell you that they have all made numerous low level saves, if you talk to anyone who sprays for a living, they will tell you that below 200 ft is our world. I want to encourage us all to continue to expand our learning and our skills. Do I advocate to make a habbit of low saves? Nope, if for nothing else, it is inefficient flying, it takes a whole lot of time to extract oneself from a hole while other guys are cruising along overhead. But I encourage us all to gain the skills necessary to make a low level save a non event.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 9:26:35 AM UTC-4, agca...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...are you telling me that for every AG pilot out there who is turning all day long at very low levels, "its a big deal"?

No. I've nothing to say about AG pilots who also fly gliders. But your saying that glider pilots should push themselves to gradually adopt the same personal minimums as AG pilots is absurd.

[agca...@gmail.com]

Whats obsurd is someone who doesnot want to learn every skill he needs to have in order to fly efficiently and safely. For glider flying that includes how to make safe low level saves. That is unless the glider pilot is one of those guys who is content to just float around at the top of the house thermal all afternoon.

Thats ok if thats his/her only ambition, but it has been my experience that that is the guy who spins in turning on his final approach. I stay miles away from those guys. They are also the guys who are a pain when in a gaggle. Their eyes are glued to their airspeed indicator, oblivious to whats going on around them, these are the guys who refuse to even entertain any advice as to how to fly better. Those are the guys that make it tough on all the rest of us who are trying our best to be not only safe but also efficient.

Those are the guys who like to make "arbitrary" rules on how to fly which they want to apply to the rest of us. Those rules end up being useless at trully promoting safety as they are based on the limited experience of the rule makers, coming out of either ignorance, or fear, or both.

I am not directing this at you Flubber, i am just relating an opinion based out of my own experience with dealing with and conversing with the guys holding these "dont ever thermal low" perspectives.

[Dan Marotta]

<snip>

It is a 'dangerous big deal' for the pilots who have died or been injured because they failed to make a low save.

<\snip>

Incompetence on the part of one pilot is no reason to hobble competent pilots.

As long as one obeys the laws of physics, and we're mainly talking angle of attack here, the aircraft flies just fine.  Screw up and pay the price.

OK, my flame suit is on, begin the "For the good of the masses" BS now.  I'm with Agcat on this one.

Dan, 5J

[son_of_flubber]

Okay. If this is an April Fool's Joke... you got me.

[Tango Eight]

I'm just going to drop these links right here. No comment needed.

http://www.pacificsoaring.org/documents/Safety_Comes_First_BGantenbrink.pdf

http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_On_Safety_Soaring_May_1987.pdf

https://www-ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soaring/PASCO_2007_talk.html

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[agca...@gmail.com]

Evan, the second article you posted by Nadler should be required reading for anyone who desires to do more than float around the home field. I feel he nailed almost every point I have been trying to express.

One aspect he touches on that I feel needs more emphasis is the phenomenon of fairly low time pilots who happen to have the funds to afford high performance ships and play in the regionals. He points out that these guys "try" to immulate what they see the experienced guys do but without their own necessary experience to even know they are in trouble! This is so very true. I have seen it numerous times myself.

[gregg...@gmail.com]

Talk on safety from someone that knows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2O-Dpw0Yfc

[usnightl...@gmail.com]

Thanks Evan for linking those articles. Great reads.

Best Regards,
Daniel

[Giaco]

Definitely... this is quickly becoming one of the most productive threads i've seen to date on RAS.

[BobW]

Awesome stuff! I remember the first time I read Dave Nadler's article. It was
- in one word - compelling. (Still is!) I can't remember if I wrote to him or
to "Soaring" mag's editor, but it warranted written kudos! The other two links
are of equally compelling content. Thanks for posting!

Bob W.

[ifee...@hotmail.com]

I was just going to thank everyone for the resurrection of this old thread because it reminded me about this movie and I finally got off my rear and watched it!

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Also, available for purchase legally here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/videos.htm#BoyWhoFlewWithCondors

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_______________________________________

"Jonathan St. Cloud" wrote in message
news:d7d7b43b-0880-4806...@googlegroups.com...

[ltwe...@aol.com]

My hubby, John, is the proud owner of SN#226 and is in the process of cleaning it and restoring it!

[flyingb...@yahoo.com]

Margaret Birsner MAY now be Margaret Rapaport and living in New York.

[cand...@gmail.com]

I have had numerous climb-outs from <200' in a Woodstock 11.9m. I used to practice them daily around 8:00 am at Zapata, TX.

However, in the prototype Carbon Dragon I once had a 63' agl climb-out at Hobbs at the beginning of a World Record attempt. This was witnessed by an FAI Official Observer who was appointed out of Geneva (pre-Paris) and who rigorously analyzed the barogram after the fact, being rather amazed at the time. This was utillizing mid morning, "soft" thermals which derived more than 50% of their bouyancy from latent heat in the humidity. There was some wind, and the only challenging moment was when I had to narrow my bank angle to make sure my inside wing lifted over a telephone wire while drifting by.

Gary Osoba

[herbk...@gmail.com]

Gary, let's be careful with anecdotes such as yours. What you are doing in a small, very light wing-load glider is not applicable to the kind of soaring we normally do. In fact it might lead to others trying that kind of flying in a Discus or '27. My club had just yesterday a safety meeting around the topic of "Normalization of Deviance". Thermaling lower and lower and getting away with it fits that definition and has lead to numerous fatalities in our sport. Your stories are the opposite of what we need. The fact that I can throw my Discus-launch RC glider in the air and soar for long times does not mean that's the future of soaring. Please modify your post.
Herb

[BobW]

Modify how? As you've accurately pointed out, wingloading makes for some very
real differences in ship-thermaling capabilities. As a Big Believer in
education (externally-/self-directed, both), I also believe discouraging
discussion is some combination of
pointless/self-defeating/non-positively-authoritarian. (Yes, there's a place
for "positive authoritarianism" as parents of young children and dog-owners
generally understand :) )

Darwinism is likely ineradicable from life. The trick for us glider pilots is
to avoid making those mistakes that will kill us. Arguably, drawing uninformed
conclusions from RAS has "Very Real death potential," simultaneously with RAS
information also having fundamental educational potential. Life's full of
contradictory conundrums (conumdra?).

Margins. Respect them, cuz they don't respect anything!

Respectfully,
Bob W.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 12:57:01 PM UTC-4, BobW wrote:
> ... young children and dog-owners generally understand :) )

Are you calling RAS-ers young children and dogs??
Now you've gone and offended young children and dogs...

[cand...@gmail.com]

Herb-

I clearly identified the gliders I experienced low saves in. It's fine that you are calling attention to important factors such as W/S. I would not attempt a 63' save in my 27. Or the modified Sigma, which flies at a higher W/S than any other sailplane in the world- the other end of the W/S spectrum from the Carbon Dragon which flies at the lightest W/S in the world. However, I would not attempt pitch-based dynamic soaring in the Carbon Dragon although the Sigma is well suited to it.

The subject was low saves in a manned sailplane, not playing with your RC gliders. I'm sorry that something I have experienced- and done safely given the circumstances- appears to be offensive to you. When you have flown these gliders in these circumstances, you can recommend more actions to me. Otherwise, this is the only "modification" to my post I will make.

Gary

[armstro...@sbcglobal.net]

Chris Jury was a local Tehachapian. Jury Road is where their ranch was, I think his dad was an airline pilot. Chris died in a plane accident I believe in the 70s.
Margaret Birsner and her brother John flew gliders with Fred Harris here in Tehachapi. John was at Stanford when the show was made and now is a retired ob/gyn physician in Lancaster, ca. Margaret was attending a private Catholic high school in the bay area when the show was made. She married an older physician and I believe is now living in Israel. Margaret and John's dad was J.W. Birsner, a prominent radiologist in Bakersfield and Lancaster. John told me that he and others were concerned that Margaret might be exploited by the capitalist Disney Corp - remember this was the 60s.

[K m]

Oh yea baby! Pre Paris, Now those were the days. Of course one has to analyze the baro after the fact because watching the baro doing its thing during flight is just boring. Ive never seen a telephone line drift but we don't have to worry about that these days because everyone has a cell phone.
Did I ever tell you about my low save at 20 ft agl? Of course I was in a turboprop and some ding a ling in an ag plane who's world end at 200 ft (Is that agl or msl, I dont remember) decided to take off on an intersecting runway. Of course I am one of the mindless low time idiots who likes arbitrary rules like going around when I am about to hit someone.
We should ad points at contests for "Lowest save" and double points over ul-landable terrain (Are you listening rules comity).
Pilots who walk on water are awesome!

[bef...@gmail.com]

Le mercredi 27 août 2008 04:06:41 UTC+2, ContestID67 a écrit :
> I finally got around to watching this 1967 movie which I bought on
> eBay more than a month ago. It was surprisingly well done. Not that
> Walt ever put out a bad product, his production values were always top
> notch. However, when the popular media shows soaring, I often see
> realism and accuracy go right out the cockpit window, maybe especially
> via Hollywood and their non-accuracy for the sake of making a movie
> that sells (Thomas Crown Affair nonwithstanding). Anyway, it was a
> pretty good show and I can imagine that watching this as a kid could
> easily have gotten you bitten by the soaring bug.
>
> Some general comments, questions and ramblings. Warning - there are
> movie spoilers below (no pun intended);
>
> * There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
> over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
> Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
> last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
> mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
> name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.
> * While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
> are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
> exist or were they simply Hollywood actors? If real, did they do
> their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
> * I caught tail numbers for the 1-26 and 2-22 flown in the movie.
> N2788Z and N8658R respectively. According to the NTSB the 1-26 is
> currently owned by Paul Fuller and appears to still be flying in
> Powell, OH. The 2-22 is currently owned by Craig Stanford and appears
> to also still be flying in Beaverton, WA. I wonder if they know they
> own famous gliders?
> * The release from tow was shown as the standard tow plane goes left
> and glider goes right. Except, that is, in the case of Chris' first
> solo in which the tow plane goes right and the glider goes straight
> ahead. Was the release flight path a standard as far back as 1964 or
> was it less regimented back then?
> * Chris gets his Silver, Gold and Diamond during the movie (pretty
> impressive kid). They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
> nomenclature. What did the C stand for? Is this nomenclature still
> used outside the US?
> * Leslie Nielson is the narrator and the only person credited in the
> titles. My son only knows Leslie from his movie spoofs and was
> surprised that he actually ever had serious roles (reference
> "Forbidden Planet")
> * Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
> a 200 foot rope? Can you actually stand up-right immediately
> following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26? ;-) Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
> you.
>
> Thanks, John

the link is not working for me (obsolote)

thanks

[bef...@gmail.com]

I meant this link from old post

http://tinyurl.com/54rgph

[2G]

I never liked the phrase "normalization of deviance" - it is just too clinical. A better understood phrase that means exactly the same thing, and is understood by all, is "pushing the limits."

[RossFW]

That was SO cool! I remember as a kid seeing another Disney show about gliding- probably made later (I think Blaniks featured). It had more dialogue- sort of followed a family who had a gliding business- anyone know that one?

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 3:22:54 AM UTC-5, bef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > * There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
> > over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
> > Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
> > last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
> > mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
> > name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.

Dick Johnson did set a distance record but the movie reference may likely be about Al Parker in an Arlington Sisu sailplane making the first 1,000 kilometer soaring flight in the world in July of 1964 from his hometown of Odessa, TX across Colorado to Kimball, Nebraska, well over 600 miles. That historic Sisu is on display in the Smithsonian Udvar-Hazy aviation museum near Dulles, VA. Excellent article with better details about the flight in a 1964 fall issue of SOARING magazine. (I'm not in Marfa to access my fat file on the Sisu sailplane history - gone since April 27. Heading back to Marfa in a week or two.)

[Scott Williams]

2G,
I Think a good case can be made that "normalization of deviance" is not the same as "pushing limits" Generally, I think pushing limits has a factor of knowing what the limits are and intentionally exceeding them. Example, performing aerobatics when not trained for them, or flying over vne or overgross.

Both U.S. space shuttles were lost due to "normalization of deviance" first was
a cold weather launch, second was external tank foam shedding and damaging shuttle wing. I do not think anybody was knowingly "pushing limits"

If a pilot has an incident during pushing limits, they might think "crap!"
If a pilot has an incident resulting from "N.O.D." they will probably think
"what is happening"
Normalization of deviance is much more subtle and gradual.

Respect,
Scott

[Mike Finegan]

Ross - believe you are referring to Call To Glory, a TV series featuring Craig T. Nelson as an Air Force Colonel and included a young Elisabeth Shue as his daughter, who took flying lessons in a Blanik.

[RossFW]

I actually DO remember that series- the X-15 and SR-71 featured, and If I remember, the Blanik was used to demonstrate spinning. Great show!

No, the one I remember would have been earlier, and I was young so only have a few memories. I remember a scene where a young guy is flying a girl on her first flight, and another glider comes along side inverted.

[agca...@gmail.com]

Hello Gary
No problem with you or I making low saves. Anything above 400 ft is fine with me and my very low wing loading ship. Are you going to be anywhere around S TX early june? We are going down to Refugio to make some record runs. We have tows set up for a whole week from the club, very reasonable price and are pushing for 800k in 1-26’s. Your sure welcome to jump in with us if Jim Neff hasn’t already gotten the word out to you.
Dan

[5Z]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 12:34:22 PM UTC-7, Mike Finegan wrote:
> > That was SO cool! I remember as a kid seeing another Disney show about
> > gliding- probably made later (I think Blaniks featured). It had more dialogue-
> > sort of followed a family who had a gliding business- anyone know that one?
>
> Ross - believe you are referring to Call To Glory, a TV series featuring Craig
> T. Nelson as an Air Force Colonel and included a young Elisabeth Shue as his
> daughter, who took flying lessons in a Blanik.

The Blanik movie had something to do with diamond smuggling. There was an article in Soaring mag about it. Only thing I recall is that there was a stunt involving some inverted flight. Camera guy in the back seat snagged his belt with equipment, so ended up smashed against the canopy, but never mentioned it to the pilot in the front seat.

Terrible plot.

Fun fact about Craig T.: He and family came to Tehachapi to get some rides. His wife loved it, but he was visibly scared and declined the offer, so his wife took a second ride.

5Z

[Simonsanspaul]

Amazing coincidences: The gliderpilot/actor Cliff Robertson starred in the sequel. I think it was called "Three Days in a Condor", which in another coincidence happens to be the name of a glider simulator program!! And yet another one, I believe the song "El Condor Pasa" was written expressly for the movie, but was recorded too late to be included. It's a song about a sparrow, or condor, I forgot which; maybe both.