Pilatus B4, How about it??
Charles Davis
I am considering purchasing a sailplane. I am a relatively new pilot
with about 115 flights, but with good skill. My soaring is all
recreational.
I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
maintenance, etc???
I have never flown this ship, but am interested based on it's aerobatic
capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
Thank you very much.
Asbjorn Hojmark
ctd...@ix.netcom.com (Charles Davis) wrote:
> I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
> B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
> maintenance, etc???
I flew one a lot when I was on about the same stage as you are now --
we had one in our club at that time -- and I positively loved it!
Handling is fine with the only possible downside being that the
elevator is a little 'touchy' and takes a steady hand. The B4 is very
easy to fly.
Assembly / disassembly is OK, but it's not as easy to do as the newer
fiber-planes. It's not a problem either, though.
Maintenance: Well it's metal...
> I have never flown this ship, but am interested based on it's aerobatic
> capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
Aerobatics are OK, but not great IMHO. I never was able to make it
spin properly (3/4 of a turn, though I was very light at the time).
Loops are somewhat small because of the B4's relatively low weight.
The B4 is allowed to do just about anything you'll ever really want to
do.
I can't remember the exact figures with regards to L/D and sink, but
the B4's performance is about on par with the Ka-6E. It climbs very
well.
If one isn't planning on doing major cross country flights in it, the
B4 will propably be an excellent coice for any 'green' pilot. I'm
telling you: You *will* like flying it.
For what it's worth,
-A
Bob May
Charles Davis wrote:
>
> I am considering purchasing a sailplane. I am a relatively new pilot
> with about 115 flights, but with good skill. My soaring is all
> recreational.
>
> B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
> maintenance, etc???
>
> capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
>
I have maybe 15 or 20 hours in our club's B4. On the whole I think that
its a nice flying glider. The handling is very good and predictable,
with no bad habits that I've encountered. It winches very well.
I have found that the cockpit is not espicially comfortable for extended
flights, even though the seat back and pedals are adjustable in flight.
(I'm pretty average sized, 5'10", 175lbs) Of course this is a highly
subjective statement, but others in my club have said the same. I'm sure
this could be fixed with the proper application of energy absorbing foam
cushions.
The performance is okay, but not spectacular by current standard class
standards. Upwind penitration is not the best. I have been told that
you really get beat up flying ridges in strong conditions because the
wings are very stiff.
I think the dive brakes could be better, but they are adequate. It seems
to me the manourvering speed is very low for a glider that is aerobatic
rated.
I have never rigged or derigged one, so I can't help you there. Ground
handling once assembled however is a pain as the tail seems to weight
about 700 pounds.
In whole, the B4 is a good ship for general flying and cross country.
You may however find your self wanting a little more performance after a
year or two of flying one.
Bob May
John Giddy
Bob May wrote:
> <<snip>>
>
> I think the dive brakes could be better, but they are adequate. <snip>
> I have never rigged or derigged one, so I can't help you there. Ground
> handling once assembled however is a pain as the tail seems to weight
> about 700 pounds.
>
with a spring, causing a very long ground effect run, or "ballooning"
instead of a good touchdown !
Rigging/derigging is not difficult, but needs several people. Control
hookups are a breeze, as they are out in the open air after removing the
turtle deck (easy). (Compare with some of the older glass ships such as
the Std Cirrus!)
I agree the tail is *very* heavy, but we use a tail dolly for ground
handling which eliminates most of the pain.
Regards, John G.
A nice aircraft to fly, very responsive, but not really a X-Country
aircraft, due to the less than ideal penetration.
emoo...@aol.com
I have found it nice to fly.
However, I tend to walk away when one
shows up for assembly. I think you might
lose your friends if you often need help
on assembly.
If you have a location where you can keep it
assembled and don't intend to land out often,
then that would be no problem.
Elmer Mooring (T8)
Lars Peder Hansen
Charles Davis wrote:
>
> I am considering purchasing a sailplane. I am a relatively new pilot
> with about 115 flights, but with good skill. My soaring is all
> recreational.
>
> I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
> B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
> maintenance, etc???
>
> I have never flown this ship, but am interested based on it's aerobatic
> capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
>
> Thank you very much.
Hello Charles,
I've flown the Pilatus B4 quite a bit, and I can only say that the
replies you got from Elmer, Asbjorn, Bob and John are correct and to the
point.
The only thing I would add is that you should prepare to use quite a few
long winter ewvenings checking out rivets that has come loose, just
enough to crack the paint above. Usually, this is no problem, inspection
and repaint (to prevent moisture penetration) is all that's needed.
Also, before you buy one, check out the availability of spare parts.
Happy flying,
Lars Peder
--
*********************************************************************
* *
* Lars Peder Hansen *
* Consultant, CAD/CAM & DtP *
* LEGO A/S, DK7190 Billund, Denmark. *
* e-mail: l...@post1.tele.dk or lars....@ims.legoas.lego.dk *
* Opinions are my own, I do not speak for LEGO A/S. *
* *
*************************************** I'd rather be soaring... ***
Leon
Charles Davis wrote:
>
> I am considering purchasing a sailplane. I am a relatively new pilot
> with about 115 flights, but with good skill. My soaring is all
> recreational.
>
> I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
> B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
> maintenance, etc???
>
> I have never flown this ship, but am interested based on it's aerobatic
> capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
>
> Thank you very much.
I have bought a Pilatus PC11A (B4) about a year ago and overall its a very nice plane for
recrational soaring. I will tell about our experience with the B4. The B4 is a typical trainee
plane which means it is easy to fly. The assembly/disassembly is easy but the wings are quite
heavy. Our experience is that with some expedient one can assemble/disasseble the plane with
three persons.
About maintenance we do not have any experience, I only know that very minor repairs can be
handled easy. But major repairs one needs a qualified repair place. The yearly maintenance effort
is low because it is aluminium.
The performance of the B4 is a gliding angle of 1:30, my partner flew a 300 km triangle with te
B4 to give some idea. The performance can be compared with the K6-CE, only at high speed the
performance of the B4 is slightly better. In thermals the performance is very good, because the
high wing area (it almost clibms like a Ka-8). The costs to buy a B4 is about $15000 (Dutch
market).
If you would like to fly aerobatics you need the PC11AF which is fully aerobatics, including snap
and flick rolls, tale slight, slow roll, back flight, looping, spinning. The maximum speed is 250
km/h. For the PC11AF the maximum manoeuvring speed is 250 km/h.
Overall the performance of the B4 is average but it value for money.
Leon de Wit, Netherlands
Jeffry Stetson
In article <55o2u2$3...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, ctd...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>
>I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
>B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
>maintenance, etc???
>
I agree with what has been said so far. I flew them in Switzerland when
living there a few years ago. Handling was just about perfect except for
being a little pitch sensitive on takeoff. Too, I'm fairly light which
put the cg at the aft limit. At the aft limit, pitch stability deteriorates
markedly, so after scaring myself, I was always careful to add enough ballast
to keep the cg. centered or forward of center.
There are three variants: B-4, B4-PC11, and B4-PC11AF. Only the latter is
capable of "unlimited" aerobatics. The other two are restricted from doing
stuff like tail slides. At one time, Pilatus sold kits to upgrade to the
-AF configuration, but as of a couple years ago, no complete upgrade kits
remain. FActory support is rumored to be excellent, within the limitations
of the plane being out of production now for almost 20 years. The FAA registry
shows 42 in the USA.
I think for the lighter pilot, the Salto is a better ship, especially if you
can get one with the 13/15m option. At 13.6m the Salto rolls faster than the
B4, but has less rudder authority. Inverted, both are real pigs due to their
cambered 'soaring' airfoils. The Salto is noted for being difficult to spin
upright precisely, though inverted spins are supposedly OK. (I've not done
inverted spins in mine yet.) The last national aerobatics championships won
by the Salto were in 1990, I believe. (The B4 has never won a championship
competition to my knowledge). Both have been superceded in unlimited competition
by specialized ships with semi-symmetric airfoils like the Polish-built Swift
and Fox.
For soaring, the Salto wins hands down. The german handicaps are as follows:
Salto 15m 1.00 [same as std. Libelle and ASW-15]
13m 1.09
B4 fixed 1.14
B4 retract 1.17 [same as K6CR]
The B4 does climb better than the Salto 13m, though.
Though my preference lies with the Salto, the B4 is a fine all around ship.
The acro capability of either can turn local flying into serious fun.
--
Jeffry Stetson ... Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane
EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA
Mooney M20E "Superduper 21"
Salto H-101 "Shiva - The Cosmic Dancer"
Anton Verhulst
>I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
>B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
>maintenance, etc???
>
>capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
My club has 2 of them and I think it's a good glider for the money if
aerobatic ability is important. Two minor nits are that the glider is
very pitch sensitive - not a problem but a new comer may PIO a bit on
take off. Second, the glider does not coordinate well in a turn - you're
always dancing on the rudder to keep the yaw string straight.
as...@ita.cph.dk (Asbjorn Hojmark) saiz:
>Aerobatics are OK, but not great IMHO. I never was able to make it
>spin properly (3/4 of a turn, though I was very light at the time).
I had the same problem (at 170 lbs), the rotation would stop after one turn.
A perusal of the POH discovered that you have to hold aileron INTO the
direction of the spin. Works just dandy.
Tony V.
soar...@aol.com
>I would be interested in hearing from person who have flown the Pilatus
>B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
I thought the pitch was too sensitive and the roll rate too slow. I
found that odd since it is aerobatic. After already flying two aerobatic
ships (ASW15B, Cobra 15) I expected the same type of coordination and was
surprised as I pio'd down the runway on take off.
Vince
Jeffrey M. Matthews
I found the B4 to be delightful and easy to fly. Anybody who could handle
a 1-26 should have no trouble with it, with the single caveat that the
cg is behind the wheel, so a bit of care in keeping it tracking straight
on rollout is called for. If one doesn't attempt to turn off the runway
at speed, it's easy enough.
The brake on ours hasn't worked well, and I understand from a couple of
other owners that it's a common complaint. I'm looking at going hydraulic
this winter.
Unfortunately, the insurance company considers it to be high-performance,
so they want an extra $120/year. Seems pretty silly to me, as the L/D
(which may be closer to 30 than the advertised 35) isn't what breaks air-
planes, it's the handling. I'm not sure I could ask for better, though
there are lots of different ways to achieve the same overall satisfaction.
The B4 is one of a fairly small number of moderately high performance ships
that are easy to fly and can live outside. If I were comparing only gliders
in that category, I don't think there is anything clearly better.
Jeff Matthews
marin...@gmail.com
> I am considering purchasing a sailplane. I am a relatively new pilot
> with about 115 flights, but with good skill. My soaring is all
> recreational.
>
> B4. How did you like it? How was handling, assembly/disassembly,
>
> I have never flown this ship, but am interested based on it's aerobatic
> capability, decent L/D, cost, and decent min sink.
>
B4 a good glider, not much fun to take apart and put back together, aerobatics typical glider, slow rolling and lead a hammer head.
roel.b...@gmail.com
Greetings from another B4 owner.
Roel
Waveguru
Boggs