HpH 304 quality
D.A.L
the 'wings and wheels' ad you refer to states " manufactured with
pride to be of the finest quality second to none ". I have heard of a
304 purchased in Ontario Canada which had a horizontal / vertical
stabiliser two inches off kilter .
Have you heard anything about this and/or what is the real story ?
Tim Mara
nice to know who it is that's asking and if there is a sincere interest in
the question or if there is simply an interest in starting rumors and who
they might be representing.
I do hope your question is genuine and I'll try to answer in like manner.
I personally try to make myself pretty obvious on this newsgroup when asking
something or suggesting advice since I am in the glider and glider
accessories business and do not try to make posts that might appear as
"advice" and have a hidden agenda as a sales pitch or more. That being said,
I'm happy to give you or anyone all of the details if you really are
interested. It is however amazing how some stories get started and
exaggerations tend to get greater as they go...as far a 304 being 2" off
kilter I'd have to go a lot longer into details than I think this newsgroup
would tolerate to explain the details but the short answer is that one owner
did find a variance in his glider measuring something closer to 3/4 of an
inch from the outside tip of the horizontal stabilizer to the other
.....bear in mind this was from measuring with a line from near the nose of
the glider to the stabilizer.....this is not a large variation....I think a
lot of owners of all types of gliders might be surprised to find that there
is in this area, or others some measurable discrepancy....this could easily
be explained and might be pretty common on some in post production curing.
When I first heard of this I was somewhat concerned until I saw the details
and spoke with several well know glider repair shops who all admitted seeing
similar and a worse conditions from all manufacturers. To take this one step
further, the manufacturer, HpH offered, in order to satisfy their customer,
to send someone from the factory if necessary to make any repairs at their
expense....I know of no other company that would go to these extremes to
insure satisfaction of their buyers .....do you?? And before I go on too
long let me try to summarize this by saying the owner also had decided he
wanted to add the extended wing tips to his 304 but since it was not made
with the reinforced wing spars of the 304CZ-17 they couldn't be
retrofitted......HpH offered to build him a new glider with the heavier wing
spars and take this original 304 back on trade for the full value ....again,
I think all manufacturers do this.....or........don't they?? :-).
So the full story is the buyer gets a new glider with the extended wing tip
option (he also had enough confidence in the manufacturer to buy another
304CZ!) and the original 304 in question is in fact, to this day still
flying without having had anything changed or repaired since it was a
relatively minor deviation and within tolerances that would be allowable
with any manufacturer.
Let me add just a following note on the quality respects of the 304's
that I represent for HpH Ltd. There are a number of experts in the glider
community that can give you advice and recommendations on the gliders
currently being produced today, they are your respected glider repair shops,
they see all types and see the good and bad ones....Talk to them, several
have had the opportunity to inspect the 304's at annual inspections and some
have done some minor repairs for dings and so on since there are now over 50
of these flying in the USA and Canada already....I think you will find all
have high praise for the 304's quality and construction......
Dick Johnson has also just finished testing one of the new 304C Standard
class sailplanes and Dean Carswell has written the pilots report on the same
sailplane, both gave the glider very high respect for the quality and
workmanship......These articles should be published in Soaring Magazine in
the near future......Be sure to read these...I think you will all be very
pleasantly surprised also with the performance of this new design....(unless
you are flying or selling something else :-) especially when compared to the
top designs from other manufacturers costing considerable more.....
If you are able, come to the SSA convention, there will be 304CZ's there and
gliders from all the other major manufacturers...compare and draw your own
conclusions....Best Regards
tim
Visit the Wings & Wheels Website:
http://www.wingsandwheels.com
"D.A.L" <donlap...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:96ab8188.02122...@posting.google.com...
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JJ Sinclair
elevator, from the nose or from the fin to the wing tips. I have checked a lot
of birds and believe me, get one within 1/2 inch and it is the rare exception,
most are an inch. BTW, Use a steel tape to do your checking.
I have seen one ship fresh from the factory (Grob) with the horizontal stab
noticeably off laterally (not 90 degrees when viewed from the nose) There are
adjustments for all these minor problems.
JJ Sinclair
D.A.L
was going
to come over and cut apart(?) refibre glass part of the tail and or
cut the boom(Would it ever be the same?). Anyway try and resell this
plane (the soaring community is quite fickled)And from what I
understand , is that the purchaser had to pay for all of the transport
costs back to europe and the shipping of the new plane.True (?)If it
is true I guess he should be thankful ? Did not the new plane also
have an aileron pushrod problem ? The story goes on.I'm not saying the
304 is not a good/great plane but you would have thought that he would
have gotten alittle 'consideration' for his
troubles/paperwork/headaches/wait.If this is the norm,god help us!And
IF this is the norm than maybe people should speak out more and
change the way factories treat customers after spending $60,000 of
their hard earned money . The auto industry learned this along time
ago no matter what the price customer service is king.
vaughn simon
seemed to be seeking information; you said:
> "Have you heard anything about this and/or what is the real story ?"
Now, you seem to want to give us some information along with your opinion:
>" From what I heard there were no adjustments possible and a factory guy
> was going to come over and cut apart..." and;
>"I'm not saying the 304 is not a good/great plane but..."
Just exactly what is it you are trying to say DAL?
Vaughn
Papa3
Though I'm not anywhere near as qualified as either JJ or Tim to comment, I
can tell you from my experience with both a Grob Astir and an LS-4,
tailplane adjustments are far from an exact science. On the Grob, the ball
and socket setup has surprisingly wide variation in both vertical and
horizontal axis "true" on 3 ships I've seen. I've also had personal
experience with large pitch variation in the stud-and-socket setup on two
LS-4s. My experience is that knowledgeable pilots abound in soaring, and
I for one wouldn't hesitate to purchase a ship with a discrepancy as minor
as the one described.
I do agree that, in general, the quality of the total package coming out of
the big European factories could do with a bit of "Honda-ization." The
amount of work that the buyer has to put into getting a production ship
tuned for racing or serious XC is pretty distressing. We at the New Yankee
Glider Shoppe (aka Richard Kellerman's garage) refer to them as $70,000
sailplane kits.
"D.A.L" <donlap...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:96ab8188.02123...@posting.google.com...
John Galloway
>
>I do agree that, in general, the quality of the total
>package coming out of
>the big European factories could do with a bit of 'Honda-ization.'
>> The
>amount of work that the buyer has to put into getting
>a production ship
>tuned for racing or serious XC is pretty distressing.
> We at the New Yankee
>Glider Shoppe (aka Richard Kellerman's garage) refer
>to them as $70,000
>sailplane kits.
>
>
Just for interest what work do you do to make new sailplanes
competition ready?
John Galloway
Papa3
- Water ballast system enhancements (i.e. one that doesn't approximate the
flow rate of a typical septuagenarian pilot - see next item)
- Pee system
- Canopy sealing
- Cockpit ventilation
- Cockpit storage pouches
- Venting fuselage "waste" air
- 5th or 6th point harness
- Control rod seals
- Battery hard points
Granted, the latest generation of ships seems to be on the right track, but
there's still a ways to go. But, I still think that, as a practical
matter, a serious buyer should plan on at least 20-30 hours of shop time to
accomplish some or all of this list in the first season.
I'm a realist by the way - I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers aren't
exactly getting rich as it is, so I'm not expecting to see "rich Corinthian
Leather in the near future."
"John Galloway" <REMOVE_TO_R...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aut3o1$9v2g3$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
Coop
Just get your agenda into the zip-lock and stop teasing us....
And where the heck did you get 60,000? you thinking of stashing
krugerands in the seat pan? (assuming you have not segue'd on the
described ship as well as the posting point)
Hoot
'how to' article in Soaring magazine. How about it ?
"Papa3" <pap...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ausp5t$h3j$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
Eric Greenwell
@ix.netcom.com says...
> Typical list (varies a bit by manufacturer :-) includes:
>
> - Water ballast system enhancements (i.e. one that doesn't approximate the
> flow rate of a typical septuagenarian pilot - see next item)
> - 5th or 6th point harness
26, and don't have any good ideas.
> I'm a realist by the way - I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers aren't
> exactly getting rich as it is, so I'm not expecting to see "rich Corinthian
> Leather in the near future."
I know DG offers this, maybe Schleicher also, so your dreams are
answered!
--
Delete the REMOVE from my e-mail address to reply directly
Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)
Papa3
here's a classic from Paul Bikle from the early 70s (thanks to Guy Buyars
for consolidating these Symposia online). A lot of this still holds true
today. http://w3.iac.net/~feguy/soaring_symposia/71-prep.html
As an aside, I though Don would appreciate the following quote from the
Bikle talk:
" How many people ever check the rigging on their ship before a contest? I
never realized the problem was so great until we started running these
performance tests. We found flaps that were rigged as much as 50 off from
the cockpit control readings used to match the flap setting to the airspeed
for best performance. Aileron droop has been as much as 50 different from
that specified and that's just like carrying 5 degrees of flap around in the
wrong place over some 30 percent of your wing span. It can also affect
thermaling and stalls in the thermal. Things like this can really hurt in
some cases. The aileron travel has been as much as 10" less than called for
and this is a loss in aileron power which can degrade thermaling and roll
response in general. Improperly rigged elevators and rudder controls can
influence spin recovery and again could spoil your whole day."
"Hoot" <cirru...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5A4AC01DA904B409.33BDFC34...@lp.airnews.net...
Greg Arnold
> ...
> > - 5th or 6th point harness
>
> How do you install a 6 point harness? I'd like to do this on my ASH
> 26, and don't have any good ideas.
I think Sailplane & Gliding had an article with pictures about this a couple
of years ago. I will see if I can dig it out. As I recall, you just used
the attachment points already in the glider.
Papa3
Especially nice thing about the article was some fairly extensive
measurements being taken.
I used many aspects of the S&G design, although that version required
significant mods to the straps with sewn-in loops. Could be a problem
trying to resell a certificated aircraft. I'm reluctant to discuss this
in public too much given the potential issues it raises. But, I wouldn't be
averse to a hypothetical discussion about how one "might" go about this.
My problem is that I don't have the time or resources to do extensive
testing (destructive or otherwise). So, if someone out there has access
to an otherwise trashed fuselage with a fully intact cockpit and a group of
grad students, it might be interesting to proof-test some alternative
designs to the S&G version.
"Greg Arnold" <Soa...@REMOVEcox.net> wrote in message
news:rsGQ9.14090$L61.1...@news1.west.cox.net...
Papa3
usually a good, general solution. See for example:
http://www.cleansweepsupply.com/pages/skugroup27117.html
In my case, I bribed dear old mom to sew up a couple of custom-shaped
pouches made out of some heavy duty furniture covering. Look great and
make optimal use of the tapered sidewall in the LS8. Unfortunately, she
has made it clear that serial production is out of the question :-)
"Greg Arnold" <Soa...@REMOVEcox.net> wrote in message
news:rsGQ9.14090$L61.1...@news1.west.cox.net...
>
TIM WARD
> Several folks asked offline about pouches. Bank Deposit pouches are
> usually a good, general solution. See for example:
>
> http://www.cleansweepsupply.com/pages/skugroup27117.html
>
> In my case, I bribed dear old mom to sew up a couple of custom-shaped
> pouches made out of some heavy duty furniture covering. Look great and
> make optimal use of the tapered sidewall in the LS8. Unfortunately, she
> has made it clear that serial production is out of the question :-)
I use the Axius Easy Access Trunk Organizer.
You can see them at:
http://www.axius.com/html/products/org/org_trunk.htm
At $8.97 from Wal-Mart, it's a little more expensive than the bank deposit
pouches.
It's 30 inches long by 9 inches deep by 4 1/2 inches thick.
There's mesh pockets on the front for stuff you need to see.
It's divided into 3 sections, and one end is just about perfect for a quart
water bottle.
It has Velcro closures, but I added "Murphy fasteners" (those
turnbutton-style fasteners that go through an oval grommet) to make sure
that it stays closed.
Tim Ward
Eric Greenwell
Soa...@REMOVEcox.net says...
I found the article: S&G April-May 2000. Tony had another article this
year about landing gear drop tests.
Steve Bralla
<tjw...@pe.net> writes:
>> Several folks asked offline about pouches. Bank Deposit pouches are
>> usually a good, general solution. See for example:
>>
>> http://www.cleansweepsupply.com/pages/skugroup27117.html
>>
I use the portable pocket bags from REI.
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Search?query=pouches&min=0&pix=1&pix=0&bra
nd=any&max=0&storeId=8000&x=25&y=14
Steve