Cockpit Size and Comfort

[Mike Rinaldi]

I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

[rstut...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:04:57 AM UTC-4, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

What performance/price range? It may not be the highest performing glass ship, but the Grob 102 has a wider than average cockpit.

[MNLou]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:04:57 AM UTC-5, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

Unless you are oddly proportioned, you should fit fine in most cockpits. I'm about the same specs with a longer torso. My only issue in a number of gliders is positioning the seat back so my head doesn't hit the canopy.

[Roy Pentecost]

Probably best avoided if you are big across the shoulders are the LS
gliders
especially 6, 7 or 8 as they are quite tight. The LS4 is a bit better.
Schempp-
Hirth and Schleicher gliders generally better (except S-H A models which
are
very narrow, even worse than LS6/7/8,)
Regards,
Roy

[Ben Coleman]

Mike, I am similar dimensions to you. I fit fine in a Std Jantar but super tight in an LS6. It's comfortable when flying but I am in solid contact with each shoulder.
I have yet to try a Schempp or Schleicher glider but will be pestering some club members when I get a chance.

Cheers Ben

[Roy Pentecost]

At 14:04 03 May 2015, Mike Rinaldi wrote:

[BG]

I would second the option the Grob 102, it is about as wide as they come.

I am 5'9" weight 200 lbs with shoulders that were tuned for swimming. I fly a DG 800 with zero spare room at the shoulders.

[Bob Salvo]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:04:57 AM UTC-4, Mike Rinaldi wrote:

> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

The ship with the roomiest cockpit I have ever flown, is the Genesis 2. There is plenty of shoulder room.

[howard banks]

Standard Cirrus was probably the most comfortable and commodious I have ever flown. Pik 20 was nearly as good and large. ASW-20B was comfortable but a lot tighter. 27 is tighter still, but I have no problems flying a long time. Just need to be well organized with where everything is before takeoff.
Before buying arrange to sit in whatever it is for an extended time. Preferably on the trailer dolly so that you can see what fun it is to pull the gear up and put it down. And to waggle all other items. Spoiler handles can end up trapped by pants' leg. Imagine trying to take a pee, or get sandwich out of pocket. Can you reach the panel when sitting in a position where you will not constantly be bashing head on canopy.
Try it all out before exchanging hard earned gold.
PS: Yes Grob is large but it is a flying tank ...

[sfda...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:04:57 AM UTC-5, Mike Rinaldi wrote:

> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

The Genesis II cockpit is very large and comfortable. At 200 Lb. you can easily move around in it. You could also grow an additional 8 inches and 40 Lbs. and still be comfortable.

[Andy Blackburn]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 7:04:57 AM UTC-7, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

Go to a glider field with a lot of gliders - a reasonably well-attended contest is a good idea. Ask pilots if you can test-fit. I dare say most will say yes (unless it is time to launch - don't do that). Cordele is probably the closest contest to you in early June or Sports Nationals in Waynesville. I flew all the way across the country to play "try on" when I was in the market.

I am the same general proportions as you describe (as far as you go at least). The only glider I can't fit in with my shoulders parallel to the wings are the Shempp a-models. Unless you are a serious bodybuilder or made out of very low-density stuff, you should be able to fit into pretty much anything -- so it's a matter of overall comfort. Beyond width, there will be a host of other dimensions that you may like or dislike. My arms aren't long enough to reach the instrument panel without a lot of fiddling with sitting position on most Shempp gliders. The LSs have a pronounced hump under the knees which some pilots like and some don't. LS heel brakes, Shempp motorcycle brakes, front canopy, side canopy, removable canopy, rudder pedal width and height, etc. Then there are flying qualities, flaps/no flaps, span and on and on.

No substitute for sitting in a few - preferably in your price range. Wings and Wheels can give you some ideas about that. Also keep in mind that there are fewer fuselage variants than there are glider types - a little querying of experienced pilots will help make the challenge manageable if you don't know or remember. My rough recollection of common fuselages across multiple models is:

Libelle 201/301 (depending on canopy)
Cirrus and Mini-Nimbus (?)
LS-3, LS-4
LS-6, LS-7, LS-8, LS-10
Pretty much all the single-seat DGs after the 100 (?)
Ventus/Discus a
Ventus/Discus b
(similar, if not identical for V-2/D-2 a vs b/c) (?)
ASW-19/20, Pegasus
ASW-24, 27, 29

I'm sure others can add/correct, but that's reasonably close. I didn't get into open class - some go straight there but most don't.

Andy

[PBA]

Ahhh, there is nothing more fun than shopping for a new-used glider.

There's a nice Grob 102 on Wings and Wheels. That's got to be the #1 value in used glass gliders. Typically around $15,000, you get 34:1 real world L/D and all the performance needed to do lots of XC training.

I flew one for a year and loved it. Heavy on the controls but climbs and penetrates well. I would only lose a little flying with a Ventus and and LS8 if we were at 65 kts or less....
I'm 6'4" 165 lbs. It's very comfortable. Did my silver duration in it and wasn't even hurting in my back by the end. You would have ample room and you will be able to pull your knees up and stretch a bit in the cockpit if needed. Good to keep the blood flowing.
As others have said though, 5'9" 200 lbs is pretty standard, you are going to fit in most everything comfortably. As I'm sure you've been told, ease of assembly and the trailer rigging is major because if it sucks to put together, you will start coming up with reasons not to do it and fly the club ships.
With that said, the Grob is not my favorite to put together. The wings are tricky to get on for the first 10 assemblies but then you learn the tricks and do it much faster. Airbrakes are excellent and noisy so you'll never mistake them for being closed. Built like a tank and sort of feels like it flying, but thermals very well.

[krasw]

On Sunday, 3 May 2015 17:04:57 UTC+3, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

Since there is no mention of budget, EB-29 has a fairly roomy cockpit.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 7:00:23 AM UTC-5, PBA wrote:
>
> I flew one for a year and loved it. Heavy on the controls but climbs and penetrates well. I would only lose a little flying with a Ventus and and LS8 if we were at 65 kts or less....

Unless you were thermalling, the only time a Ventus or an LS8 will be flying at 65 kts or less is in the pattern... ;^)

Seriously, a G-102 is a nice club ship, but probably not the best for a first XC ship - if only because it can be a pain to rig and derig (BTDT). I would recommend the LS4 as probably the absolute best (and a much more comfortable cockpit than the G-102, IMO), but they can be rare. Next, ASW-19, Pegase, DGs, etc all have comfortable cockpits - the best advise was given earlier - try them out. Someone mentioned that the Pik-20 had a big cockpit - yes if you are tall and thin, but it's a bit narrow and you have to have room to move the flap handle, so definitely check it out first.

But comfort is what you make of it. I'm pretty hefty (5-11, 240) and fit just fine in my LS6. I just have to make sure I don't have to fold a chart inflight! But it's a racing glider and I like it nice and tight...

Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!

Kirk
66

[Papa3]

Ask 20 glider pilots this question and you'll get 20 different answers. So, FWIW...

I'm 6'0", 200 lbs, with shoulders and a back that developed their shape thanks to 30 years of swimming. I'm not super wide but the upper back is where I run into issues.

I owned a Grob Astir CS, and it's without a doubt the roomiest cockpit. But, I've flown all of the following and managed to fit pretty well (LS 3,4, 6, and 8). ASW-20, 27 and ASG-29. Libelle 301. Discus and Discus 2b. The only one that was a definitely not for me was a Ventus 2a, but you already knew that.

So, I think the advice to pick your price point first, then go sit in a few gliders that fall into that range makes the most sense.

As far as the Grob was concerned, my two cents. It was actually quite easy to rig if you took the time to figure out a few minor tricks. Those have been covered in prior threads. The other point is that the Grob always wanted to have at least some water. With 20 gallons, it still climbed very well and it ran much, much better. Dry, it was a struggle to keep up with other standard class ships on the run (note that at that point in my soaring career I was probably only 180 lbs, so I had even less personal ballast).

Erik Mann (P3)

[Dan Marotta]

<snip>

 Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!

Kirk 66

----------------------------

Gotta call BS on the trailer thing.  If it's flying you want, who cares about the trailer?  It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

I've had Pfeiffer, Minden, Komet, Cobra, and LAK trailers and, though I preferred the Cobra, it was the glider I was after, not the trailer.

My advice is:  Get the glider you want and take whatever trailer it comes in.  After all, you don't sit in the trailer all day, do you?  BTW, I'm very pleased with the comfort of my LAK-17a and the LAK T5 trailer is designed specifically for that glider.

--
Dan Marotta

[Tango Whisky]

I would second that. Get the best glider you can afford - any upgrade from a shitty trailer to a decent trailer is relatively cheap and can be done a year or two later.

[Bob Whelan]

On 5/5/2015 9:10 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le mardi 5 mai 2015 16:54:48 UTC+2, Dan Marotta a écrit :
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!
>>>

>>> ----------------------------
>>
>> Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who cares
>> about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and derig times but
>> that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

<Snip>

>> My advice is: Get the glider you want and take whatever trailer it comes
>> in. After all, you don't sit in the trailer all day, do you?
>

> I would second that. Get the best glider you can afford - any upgrade from
> a shitty trailer to a decent trailer is relatively cheap and can be done a
> year or two later.

"What D.M. and TW said."

Having owned trailers ranging from "truly a pig" to - functionally - "Cobra
equivalent"...I replaced the pig as soon as I came across another unloved one
for the right price, and (later on) Greatly Appreciated the Cobra equivalent
from youth to geezerdom.

My working hypothesis is today's commonly-expressed RAS opinion of "Get a good
trailer!!!" stems from a combination of: 1) that option actually exists today
(whereas it pretty much was a rarity in [say] the late 1970s), and 2) aging
glider pilots. For those imbued with the enthusiasm and energy of youth and/or
beginnerdom, it's likely far down the list (as it, IMHO, should be)...

Bob W.

[toadsm...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:54:48 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> <snip>

> Gotta call BS on the trailer thing.  If it's flying you want, who
> cares about the trailer?  It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
> derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.
>

> <snip>
> Dan Marotta

If you think a shitty trailer only adds 10-15 minutes, then you never used a real "shitty" one !

Todd Smith
3S

[joesimmers]

> Gotta call BS on the trailer thing.  If it's flying you want, who
> cares about the trailer?  It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
> derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.
>
>

Hmm.. Let me guess, you keep your glider rigged and in a hangar?

The trailer is pretty important when you rig/derig every flight.

[kirk.stant]

The "trailer argument" has a lot to do with the budget involved. If you are looking at a fairly recent glider (say, from the 90s on) you are pretty sure to get a fairly decent Cobra or equivalent trailer with it. But if your wallet is a bit thinner and you are looking at G-102s, ASW-19s, Std Cirrus (Cirri?), etc, then the trailer can make a LOT of difference - A replacement could end up costing almost as much as the glider!

As in all advice given on RAS, it's worth every penny paid for...but there usually is a grain of truth buried in it somewhere.

Kirk
66

[HGXC]

I had a different take on the saying. I always thought it meant that if the guy took care of the trailer, then he was careful with the glider as well. When you see a glider or any major purchase like a car....you are seeing the glider all shined up and ready for inspection, you are not seeing the little things that add up like waxing and religious maintenance that some pilots are more likely to do then others.

That said i have had to put more money in my trailer then the glider -:).

Dennis

[Dan Marotta]

Then I guess I don't really know what a "shitty trailer" is.

The homebuilt trailer that my ASW-19 came in was awful until I made a few minor modifications to make setting up the trailer for rigging quickly.  That mainly amounted to a bolted-on support on the top of the tail gate which placed the gate at the proper height for rigging; when extended, the main wheel was only about 1/2 inch off the ground.  I also added tracks on the tail gate to guide the cradle, and stops so that the glider could be put back on the cradle for derigging.

Those few mods allowed me to get rid of a rickety jack and a couple of pieces of wood that were previously used to prop up the tail gate.  I probably spent less than $20 on those mods and could then rig about as quickly as the Cobra guys.  Of course, I couldn't leave a wing on the dolly while walking it around but then I always had a helper in rigging.

I was younger then, too...

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

Well, I do now keep my glider rigged and in a hangar but that's mostly due to getting older and lazier and the high afternoon winds at Moriarty.  That also allows me to arrive late at the airport and sip a cold one immediately after flying.  My LAK T5 trailer is every bit as functional as a Cobra and I have a solo rigger.

--
Dan Marotta

[BobW]

"Indeed it is," sez someone (me :) ) who only rarely ever had access to a
hangar over nearly 40 years of routinely rigging/derigging before/after each
flight...and helping others do the same at our (still) hangar-less home field.
BTDT!!! (In fact, I still think it's weird to go to a glider site where many
gliders are kept rigged in hangars.)

My "pig of a trailer" weighed nearly as much - empty - as my 2600 lb tow
vehicle. It loaded and unloaded over the tongue, and lacked such minor
niceties as a tongue jack and tire fenders. As-received, it also lacked a
functional fuselage dolly, and effectively-wheeled wingroot dollies. Of course
it lacked trailer brakes. I eventually allowed 2 neighbor kids to beat the
plywood monster into splinters and shards, laid the remains on the trailer
floor, trailered the mess to the dump (and brought the running gear back with
me...only to ultimately haul *that* to another dump decades later!). From that
experience and seeing/helping rig/derig from/into all manner of trailers,
including those requiring doubled-over owners to hand-haul wingroots to their
enclosed-trailer, in-trailer, resting supports, I think it accurate to say
I've seen just about every way to rig a glider trailer...both enclosed and
open. Some of the worst led me - and not only in in my callow, feckless youth
- to question the thought processes and sanity of their designers!

I can also recall when I saw my first single-man-rigging trailer...a Dick
Brandt designed/built beauty enclosing an Open Jantar with single-piece wings.

Trailers very definitely ARE an integral part of glider ownership if your
situation involves daily rigging and derigging, and trailers that eliminate
avoidable actions are huge improvements over many I've seen and worked with.
That said, just as pilot differences are a much more significant contributor
to one's XC chances than is ship L/D, pilots who don't recognize that ANY
process can be optimized, can be larger contributors to ship rigging/derigging
agony than improvements even the nicest Cobra trailer bring to the table.

I eventually reached the point where I'd quietly slink away from certain
pilots looking for rigging assistance, due entirely to their frustrating-to-me
approaches to rigging: personal inefficiency; brute force; unwillingness to
listen to truly helpful suggestions; etc.

As for ship rigging ease, I've never encountered any gliders that were
outright difficult to rig...ALL rigging difficulties were due entirely to
pilot ignorance and/or obtuseness. My two worst riggings involved assisting
owners with a PIK-20B (a genuinely easy ship to rig), and a G-102 (similarly
easy, if one simply pays attention to wing alignment...and unlocking the root
ball bearings!).

My - worth every cent paid for it - advice to "prospective new-to-them glass
ship owners" is buy any ship you fit in that has an acceptable-to-you price,
and fly the bejabbers out of it every chance you get/make. If/when you reach
the stage where ship-or-trailer-related things start to become excuses to NOT
fly, it's time either to remedy things or to move on to something else...but
you gotta be honest with yourself about your druthers.

Bob W.

[Mark628CA]

Bob W. hit on the absolutely best argument about the trailer issue (now that this thread has drifted so far from the initial query).

If the rigging procedure is so painful that it causes a reduction in your airtime (Should I? It doesn't look that good. Maybe tomorrow...) then you need a better trailer or rigging procedure.

Similarly, if you have to land early to make sure you have assistance to de-rig (Hey! Where did everybody go?) then you need a better trailer or de-rigging procedure.

I still like the hangar option, and as an added benefit, I save ounces of pennies on wing tape.

[Tango Whisky]

Absolutely.
I've been through a number of trailers and sailplane riggings (from the easy selfrigging of my Venuts cM to rigging the SB-10 every day with a minimum team of 5).
If your glider is new (to you), you'll take any pain to get to fly it.
After some time, you will start to optimize the rigging procedure because you don't want "any pain" anymore, and that may include upgrading the trailer.
Here in Europe, if you spend the equivalent of 1000 to 2000$ you will get a trailer which actually works - it may not be shiny or labelled Cobra. But then, you're not supposed to fly it.

I would never chose a glider on the basis of the trailer it comes with. I count on flying the glider for hundreds or thousands of hours, during which time quite a few of its accessories will change.

Bert TW

[mark.w...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:04:57 AM UTC-4, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
> I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

Mike I know this is a few years old, but I am going through the same issue as you. I'm presently flying a PIK20 and it's really too small. What glider did you purchase and how is the fit? I am 5'9" and 210. 34" waist, 46" chest.

[GeneReinecke]

I would like to restart this thread: I amd 6'4", 210lbs, lanky former high school basketball player build. I flew an ASW-20C for 200+ hours but it was a tight fit even with the seat back removed and custom cushions installed. I am in the market for a newer generation glider: ASW-27/29/24, Ventus 2a/b, maybe ASH-26 (I ruled out LS ships due to the small cockpits and (I believe) lack of crashworthy cockpits in -6,8,10.)
Can I get some input from guys near my size as to the fit in these gliders?
Have learned all the tricks: My chute has been rigged to move bulk down low, I wear hiking shoes with thin heels, used astronaut foam in seat/back cushions, I cut my beer consumption (OK, sorry, that was a bridge too far.)
Any constructive input would be appreciated.
Gene

[reda...@elay.media.pl]

DG-600 might fit well. I fly DG-300 and it is about the only one i found where i am comfortable.

S

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Later model ASW 24 is possible (there are at least three cockpit sizes, IIRC). 27/28/29 are similar if not a bit larger. All have Waibel's safety cockpit design. There's an aftermarket instrument panel with more knee room for the 24 that helped get me into mine; available from Streifeneder years ago. Don't know if it's available (or needed) on later gliders.

Chip Bearden
6'3", 185 lbs.

[Dave Walsh]

At 18:56 27 August 2018, GeneReinecke wrote:
>
>
>I would like to restart this thread: I amd 6'4", 210lbs,
lanky former high

>=

>school basketball player build. I flew an ASW-20C for 200+
hours but it

>was=

> a tight fit even with the seat back removed and custom
cushions

>installed.=

> I am in the market for a newer generation glider: ASW-
27/29/24, Ventus

>2a/=

>b, maybe ASH-26 (I ruled out LS ships due to the small
cockpits and (I

>beli=
>eve) lack of crashworthy cockpits in -6,8,10.)=20

>Can I get some input from guys near my size as to the fit
in these

>gliders?=
>=20

>Have learned all the tricks: My chute has been rigged to
move bulk down

>low=

>, I wear hiking shoes with thin heels, used astronaut foam
in seat/back

>cus=

>hions, I cut my beer consumption (OK, sorry, that was a
bridge too far.)
>Any constructive input would be appreciated.
>Gene

>If you can fit in an ASW20 you should find the DG800x
series no problem; pluses are excellent durability of gel coat,
excellent visibility, good crash worthiness and the potential
to fit the NOAH pilot ejection system. The DG800 series is
not really "newer generation" though, its wing section does
not like rain or bugs, if you don't fly comps this may be no
problem. The 18m DG808C (self launcher) is not better than
a 15m ASW27; neither come close to the performance of an
ASG29 or Ventus 2.
The DG600 (a very much older design) is, reputably, trickier
to fly well than the newer 800; the 600's biggest potential
problem is lack of wing moulds (I think they were lost in a
fire) so any serious wing repair could be a difficult
proposition.
You'd certainly fit in an Antares.
Dave Walsh

[Michael Opitz]

At 18:56 27 August 2018, GeneReinecke wrote:
>
>

>I would like to restart this thread: I amd 6'4", 210lbs, lanky former
high

>=

>school basketball player build. I flew an ASW-20C for 200+ hours
but it

>was=

> a tight fit even with the seat back removed and custom cushions

>installed.=

> I am in the market for a newer generation glider: ASW-27/29/24,
Ventus

>2a/=

>b, maybe ASH-26 (I ruled out LS ships due to the small cockpits
and (I

>beli=
>eve) lack of crashworthy cockpits in -6,8,10.)=20

>Can I get some input from guys near my size as to the fit in these

>gliders?=
>=20

>Have learned all the tricks: My chute has been rigged to move bulk
down

>low=

>, I wear hiking shoes with thin heels, used astronaut foam in
seat/back

>cus=

>hions, I cut my beer consumption (OK, sorry, that was a bridge too
far.)
>Any constructive input would be appreciated.
>Gene
>

On the Schempp-Hirth side, I have a Discus-2b, am 74" tall and
weigh ~ 205 Lbs. I normally fly it with the rudder pedals pulled
back 2 notches, legs flat on the floor, a normal chute with factory
seat back and head rest installed. You would have no problems
fitting in this cockpit. I assume that the Ventus-2b is the same.

RO

[2G]

I think you would fit into an ASH26e (Jerry Plazowicki (sp?) is 6' 5" and flies a 26). I just happen to have one for sale - see my ad at Wings & Wheels.

Tom