3 Alisport Silent 2 Electros for sale in Wings and Wheels.

[Charles Zabinski]

There are 16 Silent 2 Electros in the FAA Registration Data Base. 3 are for sale and are all low time. Any thoughts? Are they uncomfortable, poor penetration, what?

[Eric Greenwell]

Charles Zabinski wrote on 12/11/2020 1:48 PM:
> There are 16 Silent 2 Electros in the FAA Registration Data Base. 3 are for sale and are all low time. Any thoughts? Are they uncomfortable, poor penetration, what?
>

Call the owners and talk to them. The Electro owner I know likes to talk about his, but he also
flies it a lot. Here is his OLC logbook for the 2020 season:

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2020&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[shaun_...@hotmail.com]

I actually helped put one of those three into a hangar last weekend. I'm friends with the IA who just inspected it and an acquaintance of one of the owners who flies it. I've seen it fly twice and he seems to have a good bit of fun with it.

[2G]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 8:17:42 PM UTC-8, shaun_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I actually helped put one of those three into a hangar last weekend. I'm friends with the IA who just inspected it and an acquaintance of one of the owners who flies it. I've seen it fly twice and he seems to have a good bit of fun with it.

Here is a review of the Silent 2:
https://www.aviationconsumer.com/industry-news/editorial/friends-dont-let-friends-fly-electric-gliders/

My take on it is you can self-launch and do one low save. If you want to self-retrieve you will need to get an aerotow to maintain a fully charged battery. Even then, retrieve distance is quoted as cruising at level flight w/o a headwind. If you have to climb to clear a mountain range, for example, you will exhaust your batteries and may not even clear the range. This happened to one pilot at Ely last summer. Faced with that dilemma, he used his battery capacity to search for a suitable landing field. He was fortunate and got a weak cell phone signal to send his situation to fellow pilots back at Ely. They left the airport in the dark and returned at about 2 am.

Other considerations are:
1. Is the launching altitude specified at max gross weight (the GP15 is not)? If not, what is the launch altitude at the weight you will be flying it? Will you fly with water ballast?
2. How high do you typically launch to where you fly?
3. Do you have hills or mountains that you will have to clear on a self retrieve?
4. Do you even care about self retrieving?
5. The battery safety at this time has a big question mark (I consider it unproven and will not fly one).
6. How are you going to recharge the battery on field (you will need a dedicated 20A circuit). Most remove the batteries and take them to a suitable circuit at the hangar or motel or home.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

The review was very limited, with no remarks from users of the Silent Electro. That's
important, because the reviewer would have learned that Silent owners rarely end up 100 miles
from home, needing a retrieve. Shucks, that rarely (once every 5 years?) happens to me, and I
fly an ASH 26E. The Electro's lower performance means the pilot turns around not as far from
home, and ends up needing to retrieve only 50 miles out while Al is 100 miles out. And, since
the pilot knows how much retrieve distance he has, he can makes his decisions accordingly.

Again, any pilot considering one should definitely talk to owners that fly them a lot. Jeff
Banks is the Electro pilot I know who has had a lot of good flights in the Parowan/Richfield
area, and usually self launching. Take a look at his OLC logbook for the 2020 season:

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2020&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497

Tom's remarks are more useful than the review, I think, and point out that where you fly could
make a big difference in the amount of motor duration you will need. Nevada and Utah are going
to be much more demanding than Kansas and Florida, for example.

One point from Tom's remarks I disagree with: Jeff did not use a dedicated 20A circuit to
charge his batteries while he was at RIchfield, but just a standard 15A socket in the lounge of
the FBO.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" h

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 12:31:21 -0800, 2G wrote:

> He was fortunate and got a weak cell phone signal to send
> his situation to fellow pilots back at Ely.
>

Not strictly on the subject of electro-flight but bjut on-topic for
retrieves, so...

Its worth knowing that, if the mobile signal at a landout site is very
poor - drops out or unintelligible voice call, a text message has a
better chance of getting through than a voice call. This is because the
bandwidth needed to send a text is less than for voice and a phone will
keep trying to send a text message until either it gets through id the
battery goes flat.

There is an example of thius working: a while back a car left the road in
a hilly part of NZ. The people in it were trapped in the car and, because
it was in a gully, the signal barely worked: it was too poor for an
understandable voice call, so they tried texting and that did the trick.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[kinsell]

I agree the article was not not very in-depth.

Interesting that the June 4 flight had a landout after a meandering
flight, 122 km scoring distance, no points due to late submission. If
he had been in a gas powered glider, it would have been an easy
self-retrieve.

One thing about the electric gliders, battery voltage isn't constant at
all, you are likely to get a couple minutes of good climb rate, then
significantly less with continued motor use.

I'm sure some people have fun flying those things, but others get
frustrated with the lack of power they pack in the batteries. I suppose
there were 17 registered in the U.S. until that Silent 2 went through
the roof in Connecticut, making international news. Apparently you
don't always have as much energy left as the little computer display
says you do.

-Dave

[Moshe Braner]

Yup. Also, people who are stuck without the ability to recharge their
phone, whether following a hurricane or a landout, with the prospect of
a long wait, should know that the way to get the most communications out
the battery is to turn the phone completely off, and periodically (say
every 30 minuets) turn it on, check for (or send) text messages, then
turn it completely off again. Besides stretching the battery, since
those texts don't need much bandwidth, they are more likely to get
through post-disaster when the still-working cell towers are overwhelmed
with demand. Too bad that text messages, unlike emails, don't have date
and time stamps, so AFAIK you can't tell when they were sent. When you
turn the phone on (or get it out of "airplane mode", or finally get a
signal) the text comes in and gets stamped with the time it arrived -
semi-useless info.

[Eric Greenwell]

I don't know how general this is, but I've read the last 20% or so of the battery charge can
only produce a significantly reduced climb power. It was in reference to FES systems. Perhaps
an FES owner can be more specific about the power available at lower charge levels.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Matthew Scutter]

Once I get to about 40% remaining, I can only get ~15kW instead of 22kW. Around 30% it warns me to reduce power below 8kW to prevent battery damage, but doesn't prevent me from continuing. I need about 3.5kW for level flight and 8kW is a ~200ft/min climb. Haven't discharged past 20% yet but it was still able to achieve 8kW at that level.
The default charger is 1200W, so even at 110v 10A should be fine, I also purchased a small 600W 'travel' charger that fits more comfortably in the cockpit with me if I outland at a remote airfield and wanted to recharge overnight, or to tour with.

[Moshe Braner]

So since the power (and voltage?) decreases as the batteries are
partially discharged, when it says XX% remaining, what is it a
percentage of? Amp-hours? Energy? Altitude it can climb? And how
accurate is that prediction? (As we know it was disastrously wrong in a
rooftop in CT.)

[Matthew Scutter]

That glider looked (relatively) intact so I hope the logs from the aircraft will provide some insight when the accident report comes out.

7.2.3 Battery packs available energy and consumption
Each of the 10 battery icons on the screen represents 10 % of the total available
energy. The number of displayed battery icons represents the remaining energy in the
battery. It is calculated by comparing the total theoretical available energy of the battery
packs (3,8kWh) with the consumed energy per unit of time. The actual consumed energy
depends on power setting and the duration of powered flight.
Calculation is quite accurate at lower power settings. At high power settings,
voltage drop in the battery packs is larger, and thus usable battery capacity reduced.
Because of this reason, a yellow warning message: “Low Voltage! Reduce power!” might
appear, even if a few battery icons are still displayed.

[2G]

How far you will need to self-retrieve depends upon the flight, not the glider. A Mini-Lak was the glider involved in the case I cited, and the pilot was attempting a 750k record flight. And the oft-quoted self-retrieve distance is way too optimistic - I would cut it in half, and that might be too generous (having to clear a mountain range, for example).

Arguing about the circuit amperage is nit-picking (20A is pretty much standard, but 15A may do as well): you have to have a dedicated circuit is the point.

These electric gliders will perform, just realize that the manufacturer's are not giving you the entire picture on their limitations, particularly regarding safety.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

Eric Greenwell wrote on 12/11/2020 2:05 PM:
> Charles Zabinski wrote on 12/11/2020 1:48 PM:
>> There are 16 Silent 2 Electros in the FAA Registration Data Base.  3 are for sale and are all
>> low time.  Any thoughts?  Are they uncomfortable, poor penetration, what?
>>
> Call the owners and talk to them. The Electro owner I know likes to talk about his, but he also
> flies it a lot. Here is his OLC logbook for the 2020 season:
>
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2020&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497
>

Here's the OLC logbook of another 13.5M/FES glider pilot I know: Phil Rose. He flew seven
flights in Ely this year in his miniLak, garnering several state, national, and World records
in the process. He might be a good source of information for choosing the miniLak over an Electro.

[Eric Greenwell]

Eric Greenwell wrote on 12/13/2020 8:25 PM:
> Eric Greenwell wrote on 12/11/2020 2:05 PM:
>> Charles Zabinski wrote on 12/11/2020 1:48 PM:
>>> There are 16 Silent 2 Electros in the FAA Registration Data Base.� 3 are for sale and are
>>> all low time.� Any thoughts?� Are they uncomfortable, poor penetration, what?
>>>
>> Call the owners and talk to them. The Electro owner I know likes to talk about his, but he
>> also flies it a lot. Here is his OLC logbook for the 2020 season:
>>
>> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2020&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497
>>
> Here's the OLC logbook of another 13.5M/FES glider pilot I know: Phil Rose. He flew seven
> flights in Ely this year in his miniLak, garnering several state, national, and World records
> in the process. He might be a good source of information for choosing the miniLak over an Electro.
>

And the missing link!

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2020&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=51117

[Eric Greenwell]

2G wrote on 12/13/2020 4:47 PM:
> On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 2:49:43 PM UTC-8, Matthew Scutter wrote:

>>>> Once I get to about 40% remaining, I can only get ~15kW instead of 22kW. Around 30% it warns me to reduce power below 8kW to prevent battery damage, but doesn't prevent me from continuing. I need about 3.5kW for level flight and 8kW is a ~200ft/min climb. Haven't discharged past 20% yet but it was still able to achieve 8kW at that level.
>>>> The default charger is 1200W, so even at 110v 10A should be fine, I also purchased a small 600W 'travel' charger that fits more comfortably in the cockpit with me if I outland at a remote airfield and wanted to recharge overnight, or to tour with.
>>>>
>>> So since the power (and voltage?) decreases as the batteries are
>>> partially discharged, when it says XX% remaining, what is it a
>>> percentage of? Amp-hours? Energy? Altitude it can climb? And how
>>> accurate is that prediction? (As we know it was disastrously wrong in a
>>> rooftop in CT.)
>> That glider looked (relatively) intact so I hope the logs from the aircraft will provide some insight when the accident report comes out.

....

>
> How far you will need to self-retrieve depends upon the flight, not the glider. A Mini-Lak was the glider involved in the case I cited, and the pilot was attempting a 750k record flight. And the oft-quoted self-retrieve distance is way too optimistic - I would cut it in half, and that might be too generous (having to clear a mountain range, for example).
>
> Arguing about the circuit amperage is nit-picking (20A is pretty much standard, but 15A may do as well): you have to have a dedicated circuit is the point.
>
> These electric gliders will perform, just realize that the manufacturer's are not giving you the entire picture on their limitations, particularly regarding safety.

Why does it have to be a dedicated circuit for a 1200W charger? Especially if it's a 20 amp
circuit?

[Dan Marotta]

> How far you will need to self-retrieve depends upon the flight, not the glider. A Mini-Lak was the glider involved in the case I cited, and the pilot was attempting a 750k record flight. And the oft-quoted self-retrieve distance is way too optimistic - I would cut it in half, and that might be too generous (having to clear a mountain range, for example).
>

> Tom
>
Why would you need to clear a mountain range on a self retrieve? Motor
to the nearest airport and land. It's stupid to kill yourself trying to
get home when a safe landing can be made elsewhere, but then who ever
said that glider pilots are "smart", especially those of us with motors
or engines?

--
Dan
5J

[2G]

And he is also the pilot I cited who landed his miniLak out, stating to me that he didn't think he had the battery capacity to do a self-retrieve even though he was quite a bit less than 100k out of Ely.

Tom

[2G]

Because the nearest airport IS on the other side of a mountain range! That is exactly what happened at Ely last summer.

Tom

[BobW]

>>> How far you will need to self-retrieve depends upon the flight, not the
>>> glider. A Mini-Lak was the glider involved in the case I cited, and the
>>> pilot was attempting a 750k record flight. And the oft-quoted
>>> self-retrieve distance is way too optimistic - I would cut it in half,
>>> and that might be too generous (having to clear a mountain range, for
>>> example).

>> Why would you need to clear a mountain range on a self retrieve? Motor to
>> the nearest airport and land. It's stupid to kill yourself trying to get
>> home when a safe landing can be made elsewhere, but then who ever said
>> that glider pilots are "smart", especially those of us with motors or
>> engines?

> Because the nearest airport IS on the other side of a mountain range! That
> is exactly what happened at Ely last summer.

O-o-o-o-kay...to my way of thinking, this is less a " battery/self-retrieving
thing" than it is a "Kids, *never* get beyond gliding distance/'known-lift'
from a safely-landable option" thing. I knowingly/stupidly did - once - and
that was more than enough to cure me forever (even though: 1) I already knew I
was being stupid/foolish, and 2) no landout was necessary). And, yes, I'm
"thoroughly familiar" with unlandable/western-mountain-y territory.

Take foolish risks, expect foolish results...

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Dan Marotta]

Hmmmmmmmm.. Let's see... Maybe I can get across the mountains, but I
can definitely land safely on this side.

And if that's not true, it's idiotic putting yourself into a position
that you can't get out of without risking your life. I have no sympathy
for those who die doing something stupid.

--
Dan
5J

[kinsell]

On the seven flights Eric showed, he was taking tows to conserve
battery. If these things were marketed as sustainers with limited
range, that would be more accurate than calling them self-launchers.

[Eric Greenwell]

Taking tows was a tactical decision, made by a pilot seeking records and big flights in tiger
country, a situation making an airborne motor use more likely than otherwise; normally, he
flies in Washington state and self-launches. Jeff Banks, the Electro pilot I mentioned, mostly
self-launched while at Heber, Parawon, Nephi, Stout Field, and Richfield this season - 26
flights in all.

[2G]

All of the bullet points I made for Charles are valid. As happens for most things in life, there are tradeoffs to be made and the manufacturers tend to obfuscate these tradeoffs to make their product look better. The bottom line is if you want to self-launch you ARE going to sacrifice self-retrieve distance. It doesn't matter if you think that Charles doesn't need that much of a self-retrieve - that is totally up to him (and I actually made that point in item 4).

Tom

[Hank Nixon]

The benefit is that one has the option to fly when no tug is available knowing that the available power for save or return will be much more limited than if a tow is taken. Somewhere between 25 and 40% of available energy will likely be used to launch.
That said, having the motor isn't just motor home. It may be to get out of a bad spot in the flight and then continue soaring home. That may require very little energy.
The profile for my electric ASW-24E(L) is launch and have about 3500- 4000 feet of additional climb remaining for saves. Testing so far projects about 5500 ft of climb from full charge.
All I need is to be able to fly on Wednesday when there is no tow pilot and have a high expectation of not having to call my wife for a retrieve.
I suspect my objective is much like many that have these gliders.
FWIW
UH

[Scooter McMuffin]

+1
Scott Manley - Alisport Silent 2 Electro #2066 - For sale - Wings&Wheels

[Scooter McMuffin]

The +1 was to Uncle Hank's comments

[Charles Zabinski]

Thanks to all that responded to my query. Thanks especially to Eric Greenwell and Hank Nixon for their cogent comments. Most of my personal flights now, due to age, are 2 to 3 hours, not too far from the airport. The ability to self launch during the week, when there is no tow pilot, is a real plus. Time to start thinking about a partner and a hangar.

Happy Holidays and stay safe,
Charles Zabinski

[stephen...@sympatico.ca]

At Toronto Soaring we had an interesting radio call from someone overflying us with a Silent 2 Electro this past summer. He wanted to know if we had a 220V electrical circuit with a plug socket (stove, dryer, etc.) We confirmed we did and invited him to drop in any time. The next day he did just that. He flies with his charging equipment. After landing he pulled the batteries, charged them in our shop where we had the circuit for a welder and was invited to tea in someone’s trailer while they charged. We had a good look at the glider while he was there. I thought the full-span flaperons were a nice feature.

I asked him about take offs and he does taxi on pavement to a runway where he is based but says he can’t do so on grass. On take off we only had short grass but he had trouble getting it to start the roll. He had to his belts and rock back and forth in his seat to break free! Watching the climb out I was a little disappointed with the performance. Still, a neat little glider. I’m guess the short prop is the real limitation.

[kinsell]

On 12/21/20 12:14 PM, stephen...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> At Toronto Soaring we had an interesting radio call from someone overflying us with a Silent 2 Electro this past summer. He wanted to know if we had a 220V electrical circuit with a plug socket (stove, dryer, etc.) We confirmed we did and invited him to drop in any time. The next day he did just that. He flies with his charging equipment. After landing he pulled the batteries, charged them in our shop where we had the circuit for a welder and was invited to tea in someone’s trailer while they charged. We had a good look at the glider while he was there. I thought the full-span flaperons were a nice feature.
>
> I asked him about take offs and he does taxi on pavement to a runway where he is based but says he can’t do so on grass. On take off we only had short grass but he had trouble getting it to start the roll. He had to his belts and rock back and forth in his seat to break free! Watching the climb out I was a little disappointed with the performance. Still, a neat little glider.

On "Scooter's" Silent 2 for sale, the description says it comes with a
2000 watt transformer to deal with the voltage issue. Be nice to hear
why that one's up for sale.

>I’m guess the short prop is the real limitation.
>

That, plus the relatively small amount of energy that is stored in the
batteries. Not exactly a new issue.

-Dave

[Scooter McMuffin]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 at 1:05:23 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:

> On "Scooter's" Silent 2 for sale, the description says it comes with a
> 2000 watt transformer to deal with the voltage issue. Be nice to hear
> why that one's up for sale.

Happy to discuss why the glider is for sale with anyone interested enough to call me at the number listed on Wings & Wheels.

[Jim G]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 4:48:41 PM UTC-5, Charles Zabinski wrote:
> There are 16 Silent 2 Electros in the FAA Registration Data Base. 3 are for sale and are all low time. Any thoughts? Are they uncomfortable, poor penetration, what?

My Silent 2 Electro is one of those for sale. I would be happy to talk to anyone interested.

Thanks! Jim G

[Jim Pike]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 at 1:05:23 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:

> On 12/21/20 12:14 PM, stephen...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > At Toronto Soaring we had an interesting radio call from someone overflying us with a Silent 2 Electro this past summer. He wanted to know if we had a 220V electrical circuit with a plug socket (stove, dryer, etc.) We confirmed we did and invited him to drop in any time. The next day he did just that. He flies with his charging equipment. After landing he pulled the batteries, charged them in our shop where we had the circuit for a welder and was invited to tea in someone’s trailer while they charged. We had a good look at the glider while he was there. I thought the full-span flaperons were a nice feature.
> >

> > I asked him about take offs and he does taxi on pavement to a runway where he is based but says he can’t do so on grass. On take off we only had short grass but he had trouble getting it to the roll. He had to his belts and rock back and forth in his seat to break free! Watching the climb out I was a little disappointed with the performance. Still, a neat little glider.

> On "Scooter's" Silent 2 for sale, the description says it comes with a
> 2000 watt transformer to deal with the voltage issue. Be nice to hear
> why that one's up for sale.
> >I’m guess the short prop is the real limitation.
> >
> That, plus the relatively small amount of energy that is stored in the
> batteries. Not exactly a new issue.
>
> -Dave

That was me in GO. Part of the problem getting moving was the smaller than normal tire. I had ordered a replacement tire of the same size indicated on the original but it rubbed on the sides. Apparently, not all aircraft tires of the same specs are actually the same size :>( I then got a smaller tire as a temporary replacement while I ordered the identical branded tire from China which I knew would take about 90 days for delivery. The new larger tire works much better even on asphalt taking about 1kw less power to taxi. It also cost me about 1/3 the price at Aircraft Spruce! As I recall your field was a bit soft and the glider had been sitting for a while waiting for the batteries to charge. I normally get 500fpm climb rate, but as it was later in the afternoon and I couldn't depend on lift, I used a much more economical cruise climb. As it turned out I did find a little bit of lift so arrived home with about 50%.
I spoke with Luka (FES) at Aero Friedrichshafen re a portable charger and he said he had a compact 3kw charger that had been discontinued by the manufacturer but he had modified for the FES batteries. I bought it and it fits nicely behind the seat of my Electro for drop-ins to other fields. It's also much faster than the two 600watt standard chargers. Worst case, if I'm much further away from home I'll get a tow to save about 30-40% from the self launch.