LXNAV S80 Pilot Reports?

[ays...@gmail.com]

Would anyone care to comment on their experience with the LXNAV S80 vario? Pro's, con's, likes, dislikes, does it perform per manual specs, etc? On paper it looks like a very nice instrument. Thanks for any feedback.

-Mark

[MNLou]

I installed an S8 (same as S80 only 57mm) last Friday and flew a first flight on Saturday. I really like the display. (I have previously flown with its sister V8 in another glider.)

There are many important settings to make. Paul Remde at Cumulus Soaring did the initial / basic setup. I then set more settings to my preferences. I found a couple I missed so will fix them before next flight.

I have the S8 connected to a FLARM and Oudie 2. I will use the S8 as the primary vario, as a FLARM display, and as backup navigation. I probably won't use the task function much as I really like the Oudie2 for that purpose.

Just my $0.02. I hope this helps.

Lou

[drguya...@gmail.com]

I am flying with a new S80 for the first time this season. It is a replacement for a Cambridge 302.
My set-up is the S80, Oudie 2 with SeeYou Mobile, Flarm, and transponder.
I have the S80 vario set-up with 100% electronic compensation with my mechanical Winters on the Total Energy Probe.
I was a bit overwhelmed by all the settings that need to be made to configure the unit the way that you like. I am finding that I need to fly with it to decide on what features I use and what information boxes I want to display.
Having said all that, I really enjoy the S80 and am getting comfortable with how to change settings while flying.
The vario seems very good and is less confused by gusts than the C302.
The display is clear and bright in full sunlight.
All the sounds are fully customizable.
The Thermal Assist is very similar to SeeYou Mobile.
The Flarm display and alarms are clear.
The artificial horizon is FANTASTIC. On all the time. Cannot be tumbled. I spent part of yesterday thermalling using just the artificial horizon and it was fairly easy to stay fully coordinated and keep the speed under perfect control.
I am 100% satisfied at this point.

[Greg Delp]

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 12:16:43 PM UTC-4, ays...@gmail.com wrote:
> Would anyone care to comment on their experience with the LXNAV S80 vario? Pro's, con's, likes, dislikes, does it perform per manual specs, etc? On paper it looks like a very nice instrument. Thanks for any feedback.
>
> -Mark

I have the S80 with about 20 flights or so since installing it. My last glider I had the V7 now S7. The S80 is has many more abilities than the already good S7. My S80 is connected to a Power Flarm Core for GPS position and traffic and to an Oudie on the PDA side. I've been switching between XCSoar, Top Hat, and SeeYou Mobile to figure out which software plays best with all the functions.

The display is awesome. There are virtually no sunlight conditions you can't see the display in unless the sun is directly reflected off of the glass into your eyes. (rare if ever) It performs very well as a vario using GPS to auto switch between vario and STF modes. Most of the functions discussed in the manual work well even when interfacing between the Oudie and the various software. The Flarm interface is great with a display that is easier to see than the dedicated Butterfly rectangle display I also use. The alert volumes are also much louder if desired. I like the ability to set a way point to fly to, like the home airport or task finish on the way point page and keep the full task on the task page. Give you a quick reference to see if you can make it back home. There are tons of options some of which I still am not using yet. I just bought all the hardware to utilize the spoiler and gear warning system in the S80. Once I get that installed I will report back. I also plan to add the remote stick.

Some minor nits. I've done two firmware upgrades and both times there were multiple settings that changed after completing the updates. There are so many options available it is easy to miss a setting that may have changed. This last time the auto switch mode from Vario to STF changed from the GPS method I had previously selected. After figuring out what was going on it was an easy fix but flying and fiddling with the menus at the same time is a pain and too much heads down time. I also had some display glitches with Flarm traffic that is displayed having weird lines associated with them. I sent in a copy of the files and they may have fixed it in this last update but I haven't flown with a bunch of Flarm traffic since then. There are many items that the S80 and Oudie will communicate back and forth like MC settings, bugs, etc. It will not however xfill the active way point or task info between the two which would make this an almost perfect "low cost" system. I have been told this capability is on the works however it may be a while.

Overall I'm very happy with it.

[Greg Delp]

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 2:08:57 PM UTC-4, drguya...@gmail.com wrote:

> The artificial horizon is FANTASTIC. On all the time. Cannot be tumbled. I spent part of yesterday thermalling using just the artificial horizon and it was fairly easy to stay fully coordinated and keep the speed under perfect control.

I don't have the artificial horizon option yet but plan to at some point. Does it have a 14 day lock out for US contests like the other LXNav systems have? The manual wasn't clear on that point.

[jfitch]

According to the SSA website, the only AHRS with a lockout approved for US competition use is the Air Avionics (Butterfly). Perhaps the list is out of date?

I saw an S80 for the first time a couple of weeks ago, seems like a nice instrument. With the same capability, it is about the same price as the Butterfly. The most obvious differences to me (I have flown with the Butterfly for 2 years now) is that the S80 has a real Flarm screen but lacks the inertial instantaneous wind and Vertical Airmass Movement of the Butterfly. Other capabilities seem similar, if differently implemented. And I guess you don't get an IGC flight recorder as you do in the Butterfly?

[Craig Funston]

Am I missing a sale on Butterfly hardware? From what I can find getting set up with the base level Butterfly vario is USD $1,400 for the sensor, $1,400 for the display and $160 for a data conversion port to connect to an Oudie.

The S80 comes in at just over $1,500 for the whole unit. That's a pretty big price difference. I have to admit to lusting after the Butterfly's instantaneous wind data, but it comes at too steep a price.

I got an S7 (V7) a couple years ago and still find it to be a great instrument.

Cheers,
Craig
7Q

[Craig Funston]

I just saw that the AHRS for the S80 adds over $900 to the price so that makes them closer.

C.

[Richard]

Actually to be exact and get approximately the same features.

S80 1520
AHRS 912
Nano 395
Cables 22
Total $2849

AirAvionics
Display S 1399
ISU 1399
Total $2798

They are both fine systems.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[drguya...@gmail.com]

I just completed a flying day with the S80.
I set multiple tasks while flying. It was very easy, even in a bumpy cockpit.
Changing tasks during flight is simple.
A screen pops up as soon as you have final glide to the finish...I like that.
When you finish a task a screen pops up congratulating you for completion...I like that.
The Flarm display is very clear for other Flarm aircraft.
The confusion arises when a non-Flarm, but transponder equiped aircraft comes close because it can't give you a direction for traffic. Big Red circle of dots with an alarm screaming at you and you don't know where to look. At least I was looking.

Happy S80 owner.

[George Haeh]

It looks like the S80 also needs an
optional $540 compass module to
provide instantaneous wind data –
included in the Butterfly.

That said, it may be easier to position the
LX compass module safely away from
magnetic disturbances than the Butterfly
ISU which also has to connect to
pneumatics and be aligned properly.

Your panel may not be 90° to level flight
attitude. Any vario with 3-axis
accelerometers has to deal with this in
some way. A separate box as in the
Butterfly gives you the option to set up a
properly aligned platform for the
accelerometers.

At 22:56 27 July 2015, Richard wrote:
>On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 3:40:34 PM
UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
>> On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 3:38:42
PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
>> > On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 2:15:36
PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
>> > > On Monday, July 27, 2015 at
11:24:51 AM UTC-7, Greg Delp wrote:
>> > > > On Monday, July 27, 2015 at
2:08:57 PM UTC-4, drguya...@gmail.com

>w=
>rote:
>> > > >=20

>> > > > > The artificial horizon is
FANTASTIC. On all the time. Cannot

>be=

> tumbled. I spent part of yesterday
thermalling using just the artificial

>=

>horizon and it was fairly easy to stay
fully coordinated and keep the

>speed=
> under perfect control.
>> > > >=20
>> > > >=20

>> > > > I don't have the artificial horizon
option yet but plan to at some

>=

>point. Does it have a 14 day lock out for
US contests like the other

>LXNav=

> systems have? The manual wasn't
clear on that point.

>> > >=20

>> > > According to the SSA website, the
only AHRS with a lockout approved

>f=

>or US competition use is the Air Avionics
(Butterfly). Perhaps the list is

>=
>out of date?
>> > >=20

>> > > I saw an S80 for the first time a
couple of weeks ago, seems like a

>n=

>ice instrument. With the same capability,
it is about the same price as

>the=

> Butterfly. The most obvious differences
to me (I have flown with the

>Butte=

>rfly for 2 years now) is that the S80 has
a real Flarm screen but lacks

>the=

> inertial instantaneous wind and Vertical
Airmass Movement of the

>Butterfly=
>.. Other capabilities seem similar, if

differently implemented. And I guess

>=

>you don't get an IGC flight recorder as
you do in the Butterfly?

>> >=20

>> > Am I missing a sale on Butterfly
hardware? From what I can find

>gettin=

>g set up with the base level Butterfly
vario is USD $1,400 for the sensor,

>=

>$1,400 for the display and $160 for a
data conversion port to connect to

>an=
> Oudie. =20
>> >=20

>> > The S80 comes in at just over $1,500
for the whole unit. That's a

>pret=

>ty big price difference. I have to admit
to lusting after the Butterfly's

>=

>instantaneous wind data, but it comes at
too steep a price.

>> >=20

>> > I got an S7 (V7) a couple years ago
and still find it to be a great

>ins=
>trument.
>> >=20
>> > Cheers,
>> > Craig
>> > 7Q
>>=20

>> I just saw that the AHRS for the S80
adds over $900 to the price so that

>=
>makes them closer.
>>=20

[folk...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 6:16:43 PM UTC+2, ays...@gmail.com wrote:
> Would anyone care to comment on their experience with the LXNAV S80 vario? Pro's, con's, likes, dislikes, does it perform per manual specs, etc? On paper it looks like a very nice instrument. Thanks for any feedback.
>
> -Mark

I have about 40h with the S80 now in my LS7. My setup is as follows:

PowerFlarm Core Pure -> S80 -> RasberryPI with USB Serial and Wifi AP -> Blackberry Passport with XCSoar


Highlights:
* Very good display
* Very good task function (tested in competition)
* Powerflarm can be powered directly from GPS port
* PDA Port with Power (5v/1A)
* Accurate Wind
* Flarm Display integrated (i threw out the led display)
* Task/Waypoint overview
* STF mode great for Finalglide
* Protocol PDA is the same as for the V7 (S7)
* Easy Firmware upgrades

What it (currently) doesn't do:
* Nearest Airports (This i miss...)
* IGC Logging (I do it via the powerflarm. USB Sticks are very comfortable)
* AAT Task Time optimization (It does AAT just no optimization)
* Airspace warnings (This i miss...)
* Spoken Flarm alerts (I was under the impression it should)

Things I'm still working out:
* Polar calculation does not match XCSoar's which is a shame for Auto MC
* The PTOT Probe in my unit seems defective. I have no TAS
* Using the digial IO pins for the water valves

[Dan Marotta]

Sounds like a great system!

Since you mentioned XCSoar, your map displays airports with a good turnpoint file.  If you want a list, simply draw a backwards "L" on the screen (down then left) and you'll get a list of alternates ordered by distance.

Likewise, with a .sua (special use airspace) file selected in XCSoar, you'll get airspace warnings.

Good luck!

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

For PCAS targets you need to look at a couple of updates to determine if the target is a threat.  On my last flight my MRX PCAS was screaming "ALERT" but the distance/delta altitude did not add up to a collision threat, only that another aircraft was within prescribed limits.  Six tenths of a mile and 600' separation is not much of a threat but not knowing exactly where to look can be nerve wracking.  So watch to see if the distances are closing and how quickly.

I know it's not as good as a vector, but...

--
Dan Marotta

[ays...@gmail.com]

Thanks everyone for the very helpful replies!!

[jfitch]

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 9:15:07 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> It looks like the S80 also needs an
> optional $540 compass module to

> provide instantaneous wind data -

I believe the compass module may give you more accurate wind, but it will not be quite the same as the Butterfly, which derives instantaneous wind (and VAM) from inertial data. The compass allows the instrument to compare GPS track and heading, this will have errors particularly while circling or on certain headings, and will need a slow filter for accuracy.

The Butterfly also includes very good voice warnings for Flarm, gear, spoilers, etc. It does not have a good visual warning for Flarm, however given the choice I will take the voice warnings all in, hands down.

[Steve Parker]

I have flown about 80 hours on my S80.
I have found it to be excellent.
The only criticism I can think of is that it has too many options, it can
be a bit bewildering when setting it up.
We can cloud fly in the UK and the AHRS has been a revelation to me as I
have only ever flown with a turn and slip, brilliant.
Steve.

[dale...@gmail.com]

I have both. Butterfly for two years in an ASH25 and an S80 this summer in a Libelle. Both are better than any equipment I have had previously.

The instant winds on the Butterfly are cool but of little practical value (an exception might be ridge flying). In my opinion, the Butterfly audio has a more pleasant tone. The inertial sensor unit of the Butterfly is a pain in the butt to locate free of significant magnetic fields in the glider (it took me 6 Mo. to get it right), The visual Flarm warning only occurs on the Flarm page and you would never be flying on the Flarm page. The Butterfly inertial sensor unit has to be straight and level with the fuselage in order for the horizon to work properly. The S80 horizon is adjustable in the vertical axis. The S80 has a thermal helper that works fairly well. The tasking software is better in the S80. The cruise audio in the S80 is just weird and annoying. Both require a lot of setup for your tastes and polar, which, of course gives them their versatility. When you update either, much of your hard work setting them up is either corrupted or erased. Inexcusable I say. They both work best as a back up and not as a primary navigation system. And the winner is. A toss up. If they fixed the cruise audio in the S80 I would give it the edge.
DLB

[dale...@gmail.com]

One other thing; The Butterfly (thanks to Craggy Aero) has a feature to disable the AH for the period of a contest. Presently you can not fly an S80 with the AH enabled in a US contest. The rules committee may fix that soon by removing the ban on such things.
DLB

[jfitch]

The instantaneous wind is of considerable value if you also use iGlide, which displays a wind vector in each 1 second lift dot. The resulting wind map of the thermal is useful for centering. I have also discovered frequent wind shears that can be exploited, that I would not have known about without it. The tasking software in the S80 does appear to be better, but neither is anywhere near as good as even a cheap PDA - as you say, a back up solution.

[webbsimax]

Does anyone have any experience with the LX Navigation EOS compared to the S8/80?

EOS seems similar but has IGC approval etc too.

Any thoughts?

[Surge]

The EOS looks like a decent vario but I wouldn't purchase it if I was going to integrate it with XCSoar.

LX Navigation apparently ignore any requests for documentation relating to their serial protocols and even customers receive the silent treatment. The main XCSoar developers have given up trying to support the devices through reverse engineering.
Yes, it's their right to withhold proprietary information but I'd rather support a manufacturer who is more helpful with integrating and interfacing their products with other devices.

LXNav have thus far been VERY helpful with my questions regarding their hardware so that is where I will take my money next year (for an upgrade to the S80).

[clewi...@gmail.com]

History is littered with (former) companies that have taken this approach. It's like watching a Trump presidential tilt from the outside. A self-engineered suicide run that although catastrophic, you find you just can't look away!

Thankfully, there are companies like LXNav & Naviter that respond promptly to customer communication, innovate in response to customer suggestion and are more than keen to integrate their products with those of other manufacturers. Love ya work!

CJ

[folk...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 4:48:53 PM UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Sounds like a great system!

thx Dan!

> Since you mentioned XCSoar, your map displays airports with a good
> turnpoint file.  If you want a list, simply draw a backwards "L" on
> the screen (down then left) and you'll get a list of alternates
> ordered by distance.

> Likewise, with a .sua (special use airspace) file selected in
> XCSoar, you'll get airspace warnings.

Yes, this is how i currently use the entire system. It just that I would like to have a backup device in case the mobile phone fails.
The device would be near perfect if it could do the airport and airspace calculations. You could go Cross Country with just the Vario. I currently use a kyobo e-reader and the mobile phone is the backup since it contains a standalone GPS. I also carry a powerbank for the phone and kyobo just in case.

Swiss airspace is very packed, and due to terrain you often have to skim the TMAs / CTRs in order to get somewhere. Without tech that is near impossible, that is why i'd like to see those functions in the vario.

- Folken

[krasw]

tiistai 28. heinäkuuta 2015 20.51.59 UTC+3 dale...@gmail.com kirjoitti:
> I have both. Butterfly for two years in an ASH25 and an S80 this summer in a Libelle. Both are better than any equipment I have had previously.
>
> The instant winds on the Butterfly are cool but of little practical value (an exception might be ridge flying).

> DLB

I think it has a lot of practical value. Thermals act as a barrier to surrounding wind, and wind is almost always much weaker in the area close to thermals. With instant wind readout it's easy to judge if you are inside this area, as it is usually the first sign of thermal nearby. And vice versa, if you don't see any difference in wind speed, trying to thermal is usually pointless as you are not yet in the best area. Crossing cloudstreets is really eye-opening: 25 km/h headwind in thermals changes to 50 km/h headwind between streets. And sometimes when glider seems not to glide as good as it should, answer is that you flew inside area of much higher headwind. My thinking about variations of wind in normal flatland thermal weather has really transformed based on BF vario. Lots of things to learn still with this instrument.

Tip for users: in expert-menu you can calibrate IAS and wind calculation improves.

[dale...@gmail.com]

krasw, where do you set your ISU% ? at Richard's (Craggy Aero) suggestion I have mine set at 50%. I am not even certain I know what adjusting the ISU percentage actually does. Anyone that has an opinion on that subject pleas jump in here.
I have Butterflies in both seats of my ASH25 and will assign the co pilot the job of mapping thermal probability using instant wind variation, Perhaps you have discovered a secret weapon.
Dale

[jfitch]

The percentage inertial mix affects only the Vertical Air Mass needle, not the wind or vario as far as I am aware (that is what Butterfly told me). I have it set to 80% inertial. If it is set to 100% it gets pretty jumpy and hard to interpret. The wind is always 100% inertial (though perhaps with some drift correction using GPS) and the vario seems always to be barometric. The vario and VAM also have separate time constant settings. The difference between the vario and VAM needles gives clues to thermals and horizontal gusts.

[krasw]

I have used vario/inertial mix between 75-85%. I think you loose a bit of inertial data with 50% mix, though ISU installation "quality" might affect optimum mix. My ISU is in very good place at rear fuselage (yes it was pain to install), it gives sensible readings even at 100% mix.

My vario time constant is slow 3,4 sec and inertial netto time constant fast 1 sec to get instant readout of vertical gusts (helpful when thermalling). Wind calculation time constant is 5 sec.

Following wind variations during flight really takes time and learning (mainly to start build mental 3D image of the airflow around you). No proper instrument existed before to measure it this fast and reliably.