iPhone X and iGlide - the verdict is in.

[jfitch]

My iPhone X arrived and I have been trying iGlide on it. It is quite clearly brighter than the iPhone 6 Plus, viewed in sunlight. I took some pictures, but before looking at them, some caveats: the Fuji camera I was using had trouble with the color balance of the displays, showing the 6 Plus with a greenish cast, the X with a reddish cast, and the Avier/Oudie with a blueish cast. With the naked eye, the color balance looked much closer and more natural on all of them. The day had high overcast, so it is not as bright as a full sun day, but brighter than when you are thermalling under a cloud. The Avier/Oudie is running XCSoar. This is the same hardware and display as the Oudie II. The iPhone X is in the center. iGlide has not been updated for the X display yet, so black bands fill the screen top and bottom, the resulting image is slightly smaller than the 6 Plus.

All that said, here is my best effort at depicting the brightness. All displays at maximum brightness.
Repeating, the display color balance do not look much different to the eye, it is an artifact of the camera. The difference in brightness does represent about what it looks like to my eye.

https://s26.postimg.org/5165wqa7d/i_Glide1.jpg

If you are a little off angle, the LCD displays begin to dim considerably, with the Avier/Oudie loosing legibility at about 30 degrees, followed shortly by the 6 Plus. The X is completely legible at a large angle.

https://s26.postimg.org/n7t247bjd/i_Glide2.jpg

One surprise as I moved the displays and the camera at different angles to the sun was the reflections. The Avier/Oudie has a matte screen to attempt to limit reflections, while the iPhones have an anti-reflective coating on their glossy face. At many angles the Avier/Oudie disappeared entirely while either iPhone was still legible. There was no angle or situation in which the Avier/Oudie had less reflection problems than the iPhones. This picture is typical (yes, the Avier/Oudie is still turned on).

https://s26.postimg.org/aug7xalux/i_Glide3.jpg

As far as speed and responsiveness, there was no obvious difference between the two iPhones. Zooms, pans, and anything else are pretty much instantaneous. Both have much higher processing power and display resolution than any PDA.

[Andy Blackburn]

Thanks for this. OLED ought to be better in high brightness environments so it's reassuring that it is. It looked to me like Apple didn't set the max brightness on the iPhone X as high as I would have liked, but I could only experience it in the store.

Seems like one reflection problem is off the inside of your canopy onto the bezel of your Avier. ;-)

9B

[jfitch]

The brightness specs quoted by cell phone makers can be somewhat misleading. Especially when comparing LCD and OLED. For example, Samsung fans have made great hay out of the "1200 nits" that an S8 is capable of, without mentioning that this is for single pixels. The average over the whole display has been tested at about 1/3 of that. Apple quotes the brightness of the X the same as the 6 and 7, yet it can clearly be brighter. Other factors are contrast, reflections, pixel density, etc., all of which affect high brightness legibility. That's why I wanted to actually test it. On the iPhone X (and Samsungs OLED phones) the display will be driven brighter automatically if you take in outside, so looking at it in the store isn't really representative.

Those pictures where taken outside, not under a canopy. There were many angles that effectively mirrored the Avier display, and only a few that did that to the iPhones. I have not found reflections to be that big a problem in the cockpit though, the worst case seems to be looking into the sun wearing dark glasses. I just found a nice pair of sunglasses for us old folks - a large bifocal reader area combined with gradient shading such that the bifocal is nearly clear. Haven't tried flying with them yet but so far I like what they do:

https://flyingeyesoptics.com/product/hawk-bifocal/

[Andy Blackburn]

I was joking about what appeared to be the classic Schleicher canopy-focused burn mark...maybe I mistook it.

9B

[Darryl Ramm]

Jon

For those playing along at home, the Avier you have is equivalent to an Oudie or Oudie 2?

So you are switching to the iPhone X as your primary device?

[jfitch]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the burn mark! Yep, that's a Schleicher canopy signature version Avier....

[jfitch]

Supposed to be equivalent to the Oudie II with a claimed 1000 nits brightness. It looks as bright as the Oudie IIs I've been shown.

On the iPhone X, as I think you know I had been using my old iPhone 5s as a phone and only used the 6 Plus in the glider. It was too big to be a phone for me. But the X is significantly smaller than Plus versions (while still being bigger than the 5) so it is working as a phone for me as well. Back to one device! Nice to have the same size screen in a smaller case. Face ID works so well it's kind of creepy....

[waremark]

As owner of an Oudie IGC (also Samsung S8, Kobo Glo HD, and LX 9000) I think brightness has ceased to be a major issue. I have never encountered any conditions in which the Oudie (pointed at me) is difficult to read. What is the relevance of looking at the instrument at an angle?

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-8, waremark wrote:
> As owner of an Oudie IGC (also Samsung S8, Kobo Glo HD, and LX 9000) I think brightness has ceased to be a major issue. I have never encountered any conditions in which the Oudie (pointed at me) is difficult to read. What is the relevance of looking at the instrument at an angle?

The posting was meant to inform those using a cell phone, where brightness has historically been an issue, as battery life has prevented manufacturers from using bright displays. There have been a few threads questioning the usability of iGlide due to this. At least with the X, it is no longer an issue. With a 6 Plus, I only had an issue looking into the sun wearing dark glasses, as I also did with the Avier/Oudie. This seems like less of a problem with the X, which is brighter, higher contrast, and higher resolution than either.

No relevance looking at an angle - just an observation that LCD and OLED displays have different artifacts (dimming and blue shift respectively), and it appears that the LCD suffers more. Of greater relevance is the reflections, and it appears that the anti-reflective coatings on a high end cell phone work better than the matte screen of an inexpensive PDA.

[krasw]

Thanks for the pictures, Iphone X looks good. I would actually like bigger screen than current Oudie has, so Iphone X in Plus-size would be perfect.

[swanso...@yahoo.com]

If you really want to go big, try iPad mini 4. It works well with iGlide. Easy to read, and has more info boxes than on IPhone.

[SoaringXCellence]

The iPad Mini is roughly the same size as the Nexus 7 I used in my glider. Get a Ram system (one inch ball) and screw a diamond ball to a hard shell case for the Mini. Should be too tough. The hard part may be the connection between the vario and the iPad.

Mike

[jfitch]

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 8:27:44 PM UTC-8, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> The iPad Mini is roughly the same size as the Nexus 7 I used in my glider. Get a Ram system (one inch ball) and screw a diamond ball to a hard shell case for the Mini. Should be too tough. The hard part may be the connection between the vario and the iPad.
>
> Mike

I found the iPad mini to be a little dim for my eyes. If you find it adequately readable, you can connect it to the vario with the Air Connect, which serves any LX style serial stream (and I think maybe C302?) over WiFi.

[Mike Schumann]

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 10:27:44 PM UTC-6, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> The iPad Mini is roughly the same size as the Nexus 7 I used in my glider. Get a Ram system (one inch ball) and screw a diamond ball to a hard shell case for the Mini. Should be too tough. The hard part may be the connection between the vario and the iPad.
>
> Mike

The iPAD mini in my Phoenix just snaps into the mount. I don't know who makes the mount, but it works very well, and there is no modification required to the iPAD.

[krasw]

perjantai 1. joulukuuta 2017 0.17.44 UTC+2 swanso...@yahoo.com kirjoitti:
> If you really want to go big, try iPad mini 4. It works well with iGlide. Easy to read, and has more info boxes than on IPhone.

I would but iPads do not have same display as X. Pure gliding use X is total overkill, with iGlide licence package is close to 1500 euros.

[JS]

RAM make "roller cradles" for most tablets.
The roller cradle is a very good system.
Jim

[jfitch]

1500 euros makes it about 25-50% cheaper than a dedicated glider display.....

For example the Air Display L is 3200 euro. And you can't make phone calls on it. Alternatively an LX9000 is US$5500 (about 4600 euro), quite a bit more than an Air Vario and an iPhone X with iGlide (around US$4300). And you still can't make phone calls on it.

You just can't compete with the economics of mass produced consumer electronics. Apple is currently making 500,000 iPhone Xs per DAY. They expect to sell over 50 million phones this quarter. LX probably will sell 100 in a year.

[Dan Marotta]

Does the iThingy have Bluetooth or wifi?  Either of those would be the
way for data transfer to/from the vario.  At least that's how it works
in the Android world.

On 11/30/2017 9:27 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> The iPad Mini is roughly the same size as the Nexus 7 I used in my glider. Get a Ram system (one inch ball) and screw a diamond ball to a hard shell case for the Mini. Should be too tough. The hard part may be the connection between the vario and the iPad.
>
> Mike

--
Dan, 5J

[MNLou]

The Oudie IGC is less than $1200 and you get a long life battery and an IGC recorder.

Nope - it doesn't handle phone calls well:)

Lou

[jfitch]

So an Oudie IGC is about the same as an iPhone X and iGlide, and doesn't make phone calls.

With the iPhone, you get an IGC recorder but I don't think it is legal for records. Other than that everything would seem to favor the iPhone - more memory, much better display, built in tracking, much faster at everything it does, and it does infinitely more. I'm not sure if the battery would last all day at full brightness, but a battery pack that will run it for days is about $30. For strictly glider use, it will come down to whether you like SYM or iGlide better. I have run both and know which one I like, but it is clearly personal preference.

Not sure what you pay in Europe, but in the US, an iPhone X is $1000 and iGlide Pro is $220.

[Dan Marotta]

It all depends upon what you're willing to pay for capability.  My
ClearNav system cost considerably more, doesn't make phone calls,
probably has a larger/brighter screen, has all the controls mounted on
the stick, is good for world records...  I turn off my phone and carry
it in my pocket.

Dif'rent strokes...

--
Dan, 5J

[swanso...@yahoo.com]

iPad is mounted on a RAM mount. Mounted to the canopy rail on the right side of the cockpit. I had to put it further back than the pocket pc that it replaced, because it would get on the way of the stick otherwise.

[6PK]

From what I understand...the IPhone can only be connected via wifi to a flight computer, none of the blue tooth connectors popular in soaring will work, but I stand to be corrected.
I also understand that the Iglide system has some type of "climb maximizer", what I don't understand is how well does it work without the normal flight computer information/data stream? Is there anyone actually using it with wifi and than what kind?
WinPilot claims that their CM will work only through wifi connection with a flight computer. But than WP is another story....

[jfitch]

You are correct that iGlide must use WiFi. This can be connected to any vario system that puts out an LX compatible (And possibly C302) serial stream, using the Air Connect WiFi bridge. It will not work with Bluetooth - I believe this is due to Apple's very restrictive use of Bluetooth. It will connect directly to an Air Vario with a WiFi stick.

The climb maximizer or thermal assistant is the rather typical trail of dots, the size of each represents the rate of climb. That is similar to SYM, XCSoar, etc. I don't find that particularly useful. If connected to an Air Vario however, you will get, in each dot, an instantaneous wind vector. This is highly useful. The flow field in and near a thermal deviates towards the core, and this is easily seen in the wind vectors. No other vario will do that, since they do not compute wind fast enough.

Without a connection to any vario, iGlide makes a very functional glide computer using the iPhone GPS and barometric sensors. You will not get variometer function or Flarm targets, but pretty much everything else. There have been occasions when my iPhone disconnected from the vario, it then defaults to internal, and I have not noticed the change for some time at it works nearly as well.

[Dan Marotta]

A minor nit:  XCSoar uses line, the width of which varies with climb
rate, rather than individual dots.  I find it very intuitive.

--
Dan, 5J

[jfitch]

XCSoar has, or has had, several styles of presentation. It cannot depict the wind in the thermal though. When using XCSoar I prefer the simple thermal center indication, along with the circling arc prediction. In thermal assistants, no one has yet come close to duplicating the original WinPilot version, both in presentation and accuracy. ClearNav has recently copied it directly, at least the presentation - I don't know how accurate it is. WinPilot has said they will port the old thermal assistant to the new WinPilot Live, but I haven't seen it yet.

[krasw]

You are comparing apples and oranges. LX9000/Air L is fullblown gliding computer, Iphone is basically a display when put to cockpit use. I do not recognize Oudie2/IGC display from your images (it seems that unit is a clone that might use different display). In my experience Oudie2/IGC has extremely bright and sunlight-readable display. If iphone x comes close to this and glossy display does not reflect everything, good. But it still 1000 euros more expensive than basic tablet that has all the features iGlide or XCSoar needs (basically display and wifi or BT), and does not run SeeYou mobile (huge handicap for me).

[6PK]

I updated last year to the new CNv XC vario.
It is a good system, the thermal assistant is a direct "look alike" copy of WM but leaves something to be desired compared to the original WP version. It is better than SYM has to offer by far, I don't think it is as accurate as XCsoar or TopHat has to offer through, I must say they come the closest to WP, I just wish they had incorporated a pointer, one could just glance rather than look at it.( I am running TopHat/Kobo connected to the CNv )
This feature was not the only reason I bought the CNv XC vario; I like it and I am not totally disappointed with it, but at the least the TA feature does leave room for improvements.
I think WP did came up with the correct algorithm years ago.

[jfitch]

Sorry, but iGlide/iPhone IS a complete full blown gliding computer with a comparable feature set to the Air Display L, LX9000, or Oudie IGC. You are clearly unfamiliar with these systems. The iPhone, Display L and LX9000 are all displays coupled to a computer. All require an additional vario system to function as a full glide computer (the Air Display L requires a Display S and ISU, the LX9000 requires an S80, the iPhoneX/iGlide requires an S80 or Air Display S and ISU). When not coupled to a vario, the iPhone/iGlide has more functionality than either the Display L or the LX9000 (like the Oudie IGC it is a glide computer without vario function). The functions of these pieces are directly comparable. The prices I quoted are for complete systems, at retail, here in the USA*.

As stated in the OP, that is an Avier/V2 running XCSoar in the pictures (I should have started up SYM instead I guess). It is a clone PDA, as is the Oudie II - these are all cheap clone Chinese PDAs. The Avier/V2 has an identical display to the Oudie II (I can't say I have seen an Oudie IGC but it is said to have the same display). The Avier looks the same held next to an Oudie II. Both claim 1000 nits brightness. This clone hardware is available for less than $200 at retail. It cannot possibly compete in performance with a high end cell phone - the bill of materials alone on these is $300 or more, a lot of that in the display.

If you are married to SYM, then the Oudie or clones (or perhaps Craggy Ultimate) are your only choices. Since I consider SYM to be the weakest of the 4 or 5 offerings, this is of no handicap at all to me. The only software available for the iPhone is iGlide and WinPilot Live, but I currently like iGlide the best. As I have said before, I own the hardware and I have equipment, mounts, and wiring in my glider to run iGlide, SYM, XCSoar, original WinPilot, and WinPilot Live as well as a few others. I have run them all, sometimes two at once. What I say here is not due to unfamiliarity with these products.

* In the post above I quoted the Display L as $3200, this is as a replacement for the $1000 iPhone in a system. A complete Air Display L system requires also a Display S and ISU, so call it $6200.

[jfitch]

On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 3:09:03 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I'll throw $.02 into this first world debate. I fly with a LX90XX and V80. I also have iGlide and iPad mini, butterfly. I only use the mini for sectionals via foreflight. While iGlide is nice, it just plain and simple is not an integrated flight computer, end of story! The computer is part of the ship and knows what is happing in the ship. The position of landing gear, airbrake, it knows when I dump water and for how long and automatically adjust flight computer to my new ballasted weight, it also controls my radio. I can push a button on stick which flips to the "Near" page, see all close landing areas, scroll through them from stick, pick an airport push a button on the stick, the radio freq is automatically loaded to radio and navigation page displayed to this new airport. I can then scroll down the various pages I have custom created to view photos of airport/waypoint/... read any notes associated with point, all without taking hand off stick. I can control all operations of the computer/radio/transponder/V80 from the stick. The computer knows my flap position and displays it on screen along with suggested flap position. I have multiple custom created pages for Navigation, Airport, Waypoint, task, as noted above some pages have photographs of the waypoint or airport. I have notes regarding waypoints below photos of waypoints. I can display a vertical card compass on display or as part of display (helps in figuring out the runway). I have pages for check lists, pages for data.... I have high definition maps loaded to the computer, I get voice warning of everything from "traffic 3 o'clock" to "overspeed", it calls out approaching airspace, hell I even get the vario value read out to me every 30 seconds while thermaling in addition to the audio tone, "three knots" says a pleasant woman's voice. I can display a horizon on computer and V80. I can even display a 3D maps behind the horizon on computer so I get a virtual screen to fly if stuck above clouds. The computer has PDF of POH and maintenance manual, and all important papers, always in aircraft. The last fricken thing I want to do from my glider or from my flight computer is to make a phone call, holly hell!!! I have never had a cell phone last more than 3 years, and the iPhoneX is $1150 before tax, then add another $230 for iGlide. My computer has an accurate flux compass, frankly the list of comparisons is so off the scale in favor of a real flight computer. The flight computer has many functions I have not listed, if interested read the manual. I am sure this flight computer will stay with this bird for the next 20 or more years, while in that time you will have had to purchase about 7 iPhones if you actually get three years service life. As I said iGlide is fine, but don't mistake it for a flight computer, and yes, I have used connect stick on butterfly to feed iPad, again fine, but for me the economics and benefits seriously weight in favor of a real flight computer. Anyone that says a feature comparison between iGlide and a full mounted computer is just not telling the truth.

The comparison referenced the LX9000, the Air L, and the Oudie by context, that is a range of products. I’ve not owned a glider with an LX9000 though I have read through the manual. The iGlide/ Air Vario will do a lot of that, and nearly all of it that I would be interested in. Not going to go through the whole list, but as examples flux gate compass, voice warnings, near airports, detailed maps, artificial horizon, etc. Other things like PDFs of your manual can easily (and more usefully) be kept on the phone. If you want sectionals try WinPilot, they are integrated, and it’s $50.

An iPhone X is $999, iGlide pro is $220, Air Vario $3000. A fully configured LX9000 is pushing 7 grand plus installation.

One of the reasons I prefer a removable cell phone or PDA based solution is that you replace it every few years, not because it ceases to function - I have had an iPhone 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and X, all were working perfectly when replaced and I’ve still not spent what an LX9000 costs. Rather the consumer electronics technology curve has left the old one behind. Also it does not tie you into a proprietary software package with an antiquated UI.

You may well be happy with your LX9000 20 years from now, but I suspect not. 20 years ago state of the art was the glide nav program from CAE running on a funky little black and white Compaq. Even now, the LX9000 is a VGA screen (640 x 480), about 8 year old technology in cell phones. Its hard to keep up when you sell a few hundred units a year rather than half a million a day.

I’m not trying to sell anyone anything. There are plenty of reasons to pick one solution over another. I am trying to correct some mis-impressions, mainly that the iGlide solution is not sunlight readable (it is), that it costs more that the others (it does not) or that it lacks significant features of the others (it does not). The core feature set of all of these products is roughly the same, you chose one or another over the details.

[krasw]

On Monday, 4 December 2017 19:06:08 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
>
> Sorry, but iGlide/iPhone IS a complete full blown gliding computer with a comparable feature set to the Air Display L, LX9000, or Oudie IGC. You are clearly unfamiliar with these systems.

I own Air Glide system, and fly Oudie (incl. IGC) and LX9000 on regular basis. Plus various other gliding computers, of course.

[Darryl Ramm]

I might suggest you give up now. :-) Clearly you don't know Jon. He knows fully well what a LXNav and other flight computer can do. And iGlide can do much of what you are talking about. He's researched all this very thoroughly and likes the simplicity and elegance of iGlide. Most soaring software and devices are stuck in decade old UIs and old low-resolution LCD display technology, they will eventually move into modern times. I can and have had argued with Jon why I prefer SeeYou Mobile, because uh I'm used to it and some things in the software are just how I like (in part because I tested early versions of the software there helped to get things implemented there how I like. Jon clearly prefers the elegance and minimalism in the iGlide UI/UX... I expect he would argue that you should not need 30 screens on a flight computer :-) And he's pointing out how impressive OLED displays are...and yes they are. It is simply a matter of when not if other soaring computer move to OLED displays and a matter of time as well for moving to more modern UI/UX feel in applications.

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 10:54:23 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I might suggest you give up now. :-) Clearly you don't know Jon. He knows fully well what a LXNav and other flight computer can do. And iGlide can do much of what you are talking about. He's researched all this very thoroughly and likes the simplicity and elegance of iGlide. Most soaring software and devices are stuck in decade old UIs and old low-resolution LCD display technology, they will eventually move into modern times. I can and have had argued with Jon why I prefer SeeYou Mobile, because uh I'm used to it and some things in the software are just how I like (in part because I tested early versions of the software there helped to get things implemented there how I like. Jon clearly prefers the elegance and minimalism in the iGlide UI/UX... I expect he would argue that you should not need 30 screens on a flight computer :-) And he's pointing out how impressive OLED displays are...and yes they are. It is simply a matter of when not if other soaring computer move to OLED displays and a matter of time as well for moving to more modern UI/UX feel in applications.

Darryl knows me too well :). He also knows that capital expense isn't what's holding me back from buying an LX. The Air Vario will similarly warn you about your gear, also in a pleasant (but somewhat Teutonic) female voice. The only thing you have mentioned in the LX feature set not available in some form in the Air system is flap position and dump valve position (there is a flap sensor input, but I don't think they do anything with it, and can I think of only esoteric uses for it). And no, I don't think 30 screens are an advantage - quite the opposite -, I don't even think the 4 screens on XCSoar is very elegant. Microsoft used to advocate that complexity = power, but even they have abandon that ruse.

But again, if you want an LX system by all means go for it. I'm just clearing the misconceptions on the iGlide software. It is sunlight visible. When coupled with a vario, it does have a full glide computer functionality including most of the things you ave mentioned. And it isn't more expensive than other commercially available solutions.