St Auban or ?

[Roy Clark, "B6"]

My better half wants to visit the South of France next year.

Any suggestions to sample some French soaring at St Auban or other
club/site?

Logbook wiil be over 1000 hours by that time.

[and...@naviter.com]

Puimoisson in July:
http://www.puivolavoile.com/?lang=en

Wife loved the lavender fields, kids loved le Lac de St. Croix, Canyon du Verdon is just around the corner, gliding is awesome.

Andrej Kolar

[Justin Craig]

The flying in the Alps is stunning, albeit challenging.

There are three clubs close to Sisteron.

* St Auban
* Sisteron itself
* La Motte Du Care

I fly at La Motte which is a small club exceptionally well run by Christian
the CFI. They look after visitors very well and have small but very good
fleet. They operate winch only. The cost saving flying at La Motte is
significant.

Have you flown in mountains before? How flexable is your budget?

St Auban will be much higher cost, but they do have a large exceptional
fleet including Nimbus 4, Arcus, Duo, ASG 29, etc.

My budget is more limited, but i spend a reasonable amount of time down
there each year and find the "club" environment that La Motte has to offer
preferential to to the commercial operation at St Auban.

Flying at any of those three sites will be lovely, and frankly I don't
think you could make a wrong decision!

Enjoy you time in a beautiful part of the world!

[mom2...@gmail.com]

Yes, yes, yes La Motte. There are gliderports with real scenery, no noisy towplane and go to wave off a string!

[Mike Oliver]

Any flying in the Alps is awesome!

If you are an experienced mountain pilot, familiar with winch launching
then I would agree with Justin that la Motte would be a great place to fly
from. (I must try it myself some time)

I have been flying from St Auban several weeks each year for the past 6
years.
It differs from clubs in that it is purely a mountain flying school They
have a number of highly experienced instructors some of whom have flown in
that area for the past 30+years- They KNOW the best places to fly! They
also have a fantastic fleet of single and 2 seat gliders. They are mainly
an aerotow organisation but did purchase winches 2 years ago which are
great if the wind is a northerly to get onto the nearest ridge

There is accommodation on site, it's not 5* but is better than most gliding
clubs offer. There is also a canteen on site which again is fairly basic.
From the airfield you can walk to the nearest shops for the essential which
you certainly can't do from La Motte.

I have always found the team there to be extremely friendly and helpful.
Full briefings are carried out daily usually in English and French.

You pays you money and make your choice!

Feel free to mail me directly for any further info. I'm booked in 8th of
July.

Mike

[Dave Nadler]

Hi Roy ! Cisteron is great, make sure to book a
Duo with instructor for full days well in advance.
You'll have a blast !
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[Paul T]

There is also Klaus's place at Serres to consider
www.quovadis-aero.com and there are lots of other french clubs in the Alps
try this link:-

http://ffvv.org/debutant-edito/annuaire-des-clubs?departement=13_83_06_04_05_84

and maybe
http://ffvv.org/debutant-edito/annuaire-des-clubs?departement=74_73_38_26_07_42_69_01

On personal eperience I would avoid the CENTRE SAVOYARD VOL A VOILE ALPIN
at CHALLES LES EAUX though.

[Peter von Tresckow]

OK, I have a seperate question. What kind of paperwork is neccessary to go
flying in France and/or Germany (I have a US Glider Cert), and how difficult
is it to get the appropriate documents?

Thanks

Pete
"Paul T" <ducat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:50ca028c$0$29342$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

[François Hersen]

Why not to visit La Montagne Noire with the great experience in towing by
car! see;
http://youtu.be/ctGEC5oIgIs

François




"Roy Clark, "B6"" a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion :
28ed1d3e-e4e4-48fe...@l3g2000pbq.googlegroups.com...

[StaPo]

Some of my friends were very satisfied in Gap Tallard, link is
http://www.martinkroke-gaptallard.com/ealpensegelflug.htm

[Charlie Papa]

Here is the text of an account of my viist to St. Auban, which I wrote a few years ago for Gliding Interntional;

Almost all my 1700 hours in gliders has been in flatland country: Toronto in the summer (www.yorksoaring.com), and central Florida in the winter (www.soarfl.com), with a little time on the Allegheny ridges (www.eglider.org) . But the mysteries of mountain flying have long intrigued me; it is terra incognita, where vicious looking rocks, (closer to the wing tip than the pilot), and a fickle horizon leave no doubt that a very different skill-set is required. And so it was that two years ago I went to the French national gliding centre at St. Auban in the Alpes of Haute Provence (www.cnvv.net). It was an amazing week, flying in a Nimbus 4D, an ASH 25 and a brand new Duo Discus XLT. But it was also frustrating; climbing up a rock face is no time to learn how to wrestle with the inertia of 26.5 meter wings, so the pro in the rear seat handled the more challenging segments. And when we gained a safer altitude, I felt like the RFO (the rich *#!%$ owner) of the large yachts I sometimes raced against, as he was coached by the paid crew on where to steer. A mind-numbing array of ridges and peaks, with foreign names was presented on tour, but after a while I lost track of their identities, their elevations, and the distances to the nearest airfield or champ vachable (field suitable for outlanding, or visiting the cows) with their elevations. And I didn't develop an understanding of the dynamics of the air mass movement on which our lift depended. So I left even less confident of my ability to fly in those mountains.

My next attempt to unlock these mysteries was to book a week with Gavin Wills in New Zealand last January, but an encounter with cancer forced the cancellation of that trip. And so it was that a couple of conversations with some other pilots at Seminole Lake last winter led me to accept their advice, and book a few days flying with the legendary Jacques Noel at a small club not far North of St. Auban, called Club de Vol à Voile de La Motte du Caire (www.cvvmc.fr). This proved to be an excellent choice! Nestled in a small plain, the launches are by a very impressive winch that resembles a fire engine, and features a 422 HP diesel driving two drums of multi-strand steel cable. Right off the wire there is some challenging ridge flying required to work up the stepping stones of the surrounding peaks, and their web site states, “Our instructors are here to teach you the best way to do it and give you the tools you might need during later flights while low in the mountains”. A subtle but important difference in philosophy utilizing a more humble glider (Twin Astir or Janus) that allows one to fly hindered only by the lack of skills that will soon be acquired.

Jacques e-mailed me 14 attachments before my arrival (one an English translation of the text he co-authored with his mentor Roger Biaggi, the rest in French). For example, he writes: “Above the mountains you have all the advantages of normal flat-land cross-country flying plus the advantages that the mountains offer, like ridge lift at known locations, or wave. When you descend to or below ridge level the situation changes drastically. The ground seems to come closer rapidly, a well defined horizon is no longer available, your view of the outside world shrinks, the lift becomes irregular and sometimes broken and so your level of psychological ease and comfort declines - sometimes dramatically. On a meteorological level, phenomena become clearer, stronger and easier to recognise. But sometimes, in periods of transition, they can be much more complicated”. I read the document several times, and I thought I had a grasp of the fundamental principals, but simply reading and understanding is one thing, - executing another. The figure eights one flies up the side of a ridge are a good example. While flying close in to the mountain, for close in is where the lift is found, one must maintain a 'responsive glider', - sufficient airspeed to ensure control in case of an encounter with a dangerously strong gust, - up or down, requiring the control authority to escape immediately away from the rocks. The turn away from the ridge should be in a surge of lift, and as the safety is enhanced by the increasing altitude above ground, the glider should be slowed down to maximize the benefit of the surge, until after completing a turn of about 225 degrees, one levels the wings to approach the mountain at about 45 degrees, again increasing speed to assure a responsive glider. That's the theory. Seems very simple, but putting it into practice was a challenge indeed.

A result of experience is the instinct it develops, - the ability to 'fly' the glider without constantly thinking abut the mechanics. But a flatlander's instinct can be tied to the perception of a constant horizon. So when I turned away from the mountain, and the glider wanted to pick up speed in the turn, the drop in the apparent horizon led me to allow it (from the back seat “No, no, Charles! Slow up in the surge”), and as I levelled the wings when again approaching the mountain, and the glider wanted to lose speed, it 'felt right' to let it, as my horizon rose before me (“Charles, don't slow up, - you must have a responsive glider”). That first day is not one of which I am proud, but it must have been more productive than it felt.

Jacques is the Chief Flying Instructor, and his job description seems to include everything. He often seems driven and frustrated while on the ground as he organizes the launch grid, or drives the winch, or frets about the inefficiencies of the many potential glitches while gliders are launched, two in a row, and then the cables are retrieved and the launch queue is processed, - and the queue seems lengthy with the visiting gliders from Germany. When all are in the air, and Jacques has had his lunch, it is again my turn. Once in the air, Jacques is transformed, - patient and encouraging, (“relax, everyone beginning in the mountains makes those mistakes”), with a soft sense of humour, and he allows me more and more scope on my leash as my technique improves. Soon I hear him busy with his beloved camera taking air-to-air photos. The traffic is intense; there can be 600 or 800 gliders in the air over the Alpes in season, and as good as Flarm is, (and every glider flying in the Alpes must be equipped with Flarm and anti-collision markings) it won't see around the corner of a rock face. Vigilance must be constant.

Jacques has been described as the best of Roger Biaggi's disciples, and in fact better than the master, and the philosophy they embraced is to develop the student's mountain technique while he learns a local area 'comfort zone'. As the student progresses, the technique is refined and the area of comfort is expanded, for local knowledge is vitally necessary. Prudence requires a second or third option, but one of the last must be escape to a landable field at a glide ratio of no more than 20:1. The math seems easy enough, but it must be constantly calculated, and although 20:1 seems conservative to a fault, the sink can be as impressive as the lift when on the wrong side of a ridge. Again, from the briefing document: “Above all, if you come to the mountains from flatlands flying you should realise that the lift tends to be concentrated and directed by the mountains peaks and crests and that the valleys floors themselves are usually not a good thermal source. So effective cross country flights are best made by the more circuitous indirect path of following the mountain ridges around towards your objective rather than the straight or near-straight line between points more normal in flatland flying. Even when cumulus are seen passing over valleys, pilots should still understand that the ridges are the best areas for finding strong and reliable lift.”

The third day showed the benefit of my previous flights as Jacques was sometimes silent for 20 minutes, allowing me to choose where to explore, and offering suggestions and critiques as required. I was elated at what I had learned. Each flight was preceded and followed by a briefing/debriefing which helped crystallize the lessons of the day. The teaching is very professional, but the atmosphere is unmistakably a club's.

Days begin with unpacking the hangar while the visiting gliders are assembled or untied, and the procession to a launch area begins. A pair of bells summons everyone to a mandatory briefing in both German and French, on the issues of the day and the expected weather, shared amongst Jacques, (who shows off his remarkable memory by reciting every pilot's name), Christian (a German Instructor who came to get his French Instructor's rating and liked La Motte well enough to stay) MoMo (Maurice, the French speaking club Instructor) or JR (Jean Renaud, with a been-everywhere-done-everything CV). After flying the usual cleaning and packing precedes shared drinks on the club's deck. Many members stay in mobile homes in the club's campground, but other visitors lodge in rooms at the local Maison des Hôtes, a couple of Kms. distant, where a small private room with shower and sink costs 26 Euros a night, breakfast included. Two and three star hotels are available in Sisteron about 20 Kms. away.

Friday night features a club BBQ, with everyone bringing his own choice of meat and cooking it himself, (no complaints about how it is cooked), and some of the club members welcomed me into their shared purchase of suitable meat, salad and cheese. I am grateful for their collective patience with my French language, but even though I was the only native English speaker there, English is the third 'official' language, and I would have been welcomed warmly without any French, - at least before the wine made us all brothers. Just in case, JR translated his jokes...

The weather is excellent with about 300 days of sunshine a year, but the club closes when the snow falls. Reservations are available through the web site, but the process is rather less formal than it seems on the internet. The cost is very reasonable, with a 15 Euro/day club membership, and 25 – 30 Euro/hour for the glider and instructor, depending on glider choice. The biggest economy is the winch launch at 14 Euros, a stunning bargain compared to the almost 6 Euro/minute for an aero tow at St. Auban, (computed from when the tug is ready to hook up to your glider until he is ready to hook up to the next). I had paid more at St. Auban for my tows than the glider rental, instruction, accommodation and breakfasts/lunches.

You can get to La Motte via Aix en Provence, which has an airport, or just a few hours by TGV train ride from Charles de Gaulle airport, and I recommend a rental car from Aix. There is however, a narrow gauge railway running nearby which looks like an adventure itself. Provence is very beautiful countryside, and nearby Sisteron, with its historic Citadel is a worth day trip. The club limits the gliders on site to a maximum of 25 so it is always personal and intimate. I had come to feel like a member in just a few days.

Will I go back? You bet'cha! And if you go, be sure to ask JR about the Nun and the punk on the bus.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:17:36 -0800, Charlie Papa wrote:

> Here is the text of an account of my viist to St. Auban, which I wrote a
> few years ago for Gliding Interntional;
>

Great write-up! Thanks to posting it.

I've saved a copy for future reference. Maybe in 2014!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Roy Clark, "B6"]

Thanks to CP and everyone who shared their experiences and suggestions.
Now the planning for the trip begins.

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and, as Herr Weber (of DG) always says,
Always Happy Landings!

[herbk...@gmail.com]

So glad you quoted Friedel Weber, thanks Roy! He is much beloved in the LS/DG community (or is he?).
Another suggestion that hasn't been mentioned above is Barcelonette in the high French Alps. You are right in the high mountains with skiing opportunities into spring and immediate access to the 'Parcours' and the glacier landscape to the North. Very professional operators when I visited for 2 weeks but that was 12 years ago.

[bwi1...@gmail.com]

I have been flying at various sites in Southern France (by the way, Challes-les-Eaux is not part of Southern France...), and maybe some 1500h out of La Motte du Caire. La Motte is a little paradise; however, during July/August it becomes rather crowded. It's a small airfield, and the limit of 25 gliders is rater generous...

For personal reasons, I now fly out of Fayence which is about 20 km north of the Mediterrean Sea (it's close to St-Raphael and about 45 min from Nice airport).
For familiy, that would be the ideal place with beaches close by (both fresh and salt water). Access to the mountains is fairly easy (the house ridge is about 1800m elevation), and in the evening you can fly straight into the field from a point 150 km to the north...
Rather big operation, many international visitors, round the year operation, reasonable fleet from 15m to 25m.

[akiley]

Anyone know which places might be best for someone how only speaks English? My wife is fluent in German, but that's probably not going to help me, nor will the handful of French songs I learned in grade school. ... Aaron

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 17:51:20 -0800 (PST), akiley
<kiley...@gmail.com> wrote:


>Anyone know which places might be best for someone how only speaks English? My wife is fluent in German, but that's probably not going to help me, nor will the handful of French songs I learned in grade school. ... Aaron

Don't worry - nowadays nearly all French people more or less speak
English, the younger ones are usually close to perfect.

And half of the people you are going to meet on any given airport in
the French Alps are Germans, so I guarantee that you are not going to
have problems with the language there. :)

Andreas,
more or less fluent in German, English and French. <vbg>

[Mike Oliver]

I'm going to saySt Auban again. English speakers in the office, quite a few
instructors who speak reasonable English, Briefings in English every day.
What more could you want?

Am biased?- Yes I think it's a great place although admittedly not the
cheapest.

Mike

At 03:46 15 December 2012, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 17:51:20 -0800 (PST), akiley

[akiley]

I wonder what the chances are of being able to solo? For example, I visit for 2 weeks, get an equivalent French pilots license in advance. (if that's how it works and IF it works) Also, I'm a relatively low time glider pilot having flown gliders for 3 seasons and 135 hours. But all in high performance inc some flapped ships. (ASW27) Some mountain/wave, some ridge in Minden and Williams. Also 600 power hours instrument multi. (like that will help)

I noticed you need 250 hours to rent a Duo at Soar Omarama. ... Aaron

[Mike Oliver]

To the best of my knowledge solo flying shouldn't be a problem providing
the instructors are happy with your flying. I have known pilots with more
hours than you who have not been allowed to solo and was told it was due to
their flying not being accurate enough. I have also know pilots with less
hours who have gone solo.

I suggest sending an e-mail to in...@cnvv.net in late january asking what
paperwork you would need should get you the answer you want.

You can always mail me direct for any further info.

Mike

>
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[akiley]

Before this thread scolls into oblivion, I just wanted to add a few notes:

I've been trying to figure out ways to learn more about airspace and procedures for a first attempt at soaring in the Provence area. As a non French speaking US citizen, I found this article very helpful. http://www.stauban.8m.com/index.html Is this Pappa Kilo's article?

A second item I discovered is SkyDemon, http://www.skydemon.aero/ , an aviation app that works on several platforms including the iPad and PC. It's an app like WingX, Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, except it also includes Europe. You can try this app free for a month (no affiliation) and with it you see all the European charts, detailed airport diagrams, airspace, NOTAMS, weather. You can measure distances, look at terrain, simulate flights and such. It's sort of difficult and expensive to order paper versions of all this material, so SkyDemon is worth a try out. ...Aaron