Parachute Use - Jump Training

[shaun_...@hotmail.com]

Last year I attended the convention and listened to an excellent presentation by a pilot who, along with his co-pilot, had bailed out of a very nice, expensive, self-launching sailplane.

Since that time I've had the opportunity to meet other sailplane pilots some of whom use parachutes and others who do not. I have used them but also fly without them. So far, none have admitted to having training on how to land while dangling from one.

Last year, based on the presentation, I thought it might be a very, very good idea to get some training on how to properly execute a parachute landing fall. Did not have much success with our local "jump out of perfectly good airplanes" school, so, I've been giving some thought to calling them again.

How many of you wear parachutes but never bothered to learn how to land if you had to deploy them? How many of you HAVE had the training?

[Eric Greenwell]

There is a question that might be more interesting and more useful: what do those that
have bailed out wish they had spent some time and effort to learn?

You don't get to choose the place you're going to land when you have an emergency bail
out, so learning to land on a flat, clear area may be of little value.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[David Shelton]

I've done a little skydiving. As Eric mentioned, skydiving skills aren't very applicable to bailing out of a saiplane; you're just going to get the hell out and pull the rip cord. However, an experienced skydiver is probably less likely to hesitate, which could significantly improve your survival odds. Plus, skydiving is fun!

[Dan Marotta]

I got PLF training in USAF flight school but it was landing on flat
ground and in the ocean, neither of which would prepare me for landing
in trees or canyons.  The training on steering a round 'chute was
valuable, however.  I now fly with a rectangular canopy and I made 7
jumps at the local sky diving school to get that nailed.  Oh, and sky
diving is absolutely terrifying until leaving the airplane.  Then it was
great fun.  Just like flying a glider, which it is, only you fly the
pattern closer to the touchdown point.

Dan
5J

[AS]

I have done three static line jumps under a Pioneer L or T10 military round canopy chute at a sky-diving club in Germany, who offered that sort of thing specifically for glider pilots, whose chutes are in 99.9% of the cases the round types. We did the whole drill of the 'tuck and roll' from a 3' platform, etc. However, that chute we jumped had a much larger canopy (IIRC the diameter was 32ft) vs the 26 or 27ft rescue chutes we use as a seat cushion. The landings were brutal, especially the one where I managed to hit the centerline of the asphalt runway. I don't even want to think about what that would be like today under the much smaller canopy and being well past my 'fresh by' date.
As one of the master riggers said: your chute will make the difference between and open vs. closed casket funeral. That was encouraging ...

Uli
'AS'

[Mark Mocho]

"jump out of perfectly good airplanes"

If you ever go to a skydiving drop zone, I guarantee you won't be seeing any "perfectly good airplanes."

That being said, parachute training is a worthwhile thing to have. I took a tandem earlier this year, but I must say it had absolutely no value as a training aid; no more than one glider "ride" would help you go solo in a single seater. I did discuss bailouts with some of the Instructors, but they were almost universally clueless about anything but sport jumping. Very little equipment advice from the professional riggers on site either The only reserve chutes they know are skydiving rigs. And this was at one of the world's busiest drop zones! (Skydive Arizona at Eloy AZ)

We have a well regarded Master Rigger who gives bailout and survival lectures at the Albuquerque Soaring Club every year, but after attending nearly 20 of these, my complaint with his presentation is that he is STILL displaying and advocating very old technology. As an example, he says we should always keep some change with us ("a dime") so we can use it in a pay phone. The signal strobe and flares he shows us are 1960's technology and he knows very little about InReach or Spot satellite trackers.

[Eric Greenwell]

> My observation of glider pilot bail outs: if they get they get out of the glider, they
survive, and usually with no more than minor injuries. I don't recall any wishing they'd
had jump training.

[Mark Mocho]

> > My observation of glider pilot bail outs: if they get they get out of the glider, they
> survive, and usually with no more than minor injuries. I don't recall any wishing they'd
> had jump training.

And how many have you interviewed? And did you specifically ask that question?

Personally, I have talked to six or seven bailout survivors, but all were military or ex military. (And no, I wasn't asking about combat bailouts- only civilian emergencies. Primarily aerobatic incidents.) All credited their previous training. I surmise much of that came from the military attitude that there is a definite possibility of it happening, or they wouldn't waste the money on teaching it.

I know one individual (besides Dave Nadler) who bailed out of his glider a few years ago. Even though he was an ex Special Forces Jumpmaster, he still took some injuries, primarily from a too loose parachute harness that he had adjusted for comfort in the cockpit.

[Bob W.]

A long time ago (1975) I jumped out of what hindsight strongly suggested
was a perfectly good sailplane (though I had good reason at the time to
believe it wasn't), with zero prior parachute training of any sort
beyond what I'd gleaned from ("somewhat extensive" [voracious reader])
self-interested education/mental-internalizing beforehand, and multiple
summers of misspent youthful jumping from our >10'-high, cinder-block,
porch walls as a kid...and dropping from lowest tree limbs of trees
accessed by sloth-like climbing up those same limbs to reach the trunk.
(Lots and LOTS of landings. The porch jumps looked less scary when you
jumped from a crouching position than when standing up!) My 'chute was
an ex-military round Army in a Navy pack (or vice-versa; can't
remember); no 4-line release (subsequently installed; never tested).

Worked for me. Landed in the county dump on the partially-submerged
rotting wooden bed of a (stakeless) stake truck, and rolled off the back
onto the midden pile with zero injuries beyond some colorful,
harness-(and buckle-)shaped upper shoulder bruises from a
coulda-/shoulda-been in-cockpit-further-tightened harness...something I
incorporated into all subsequent pre-flight prep!

Some luck; some "preparation"; it was all helpful.

Bob W.

[mrop...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:48:02 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I got PLF training in USAF flight school but it was landing on flat
> ground and in the ocean, neither of which would prepare me for landing
> in trees or canyons. The training on steering a round 'chute was
> valuable, however. I now fly with a rectangular canopy and I made 7
> jumps at the local sky diving school to get that nailed. Oh, and sky
> diving is absolutely terrifying until leaving the airplane. Then it was
> great fun. Just like flying a glider, which it is, only you fly the
> pattern closer to the touchdown point.
>
> Dan
> 5J

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Like Dan, I received parachute training with the USAF. It
pretty much included everything except actually jumping
out of an aircraft. PLF's from a platform into a gravel pit.
PLF's from a zip-line into a gravel pit. Parasail up to 400'
over the desert behind a Jeep, and descent with a 4-line
jettison round military chute to PLF on the hard desert floor.
Simulated ejection on a rocket seat attached to a vertical rail
that slowed you down with ratchets. Extensive instruction
on tree landings (Viet-Nam jungle) and how to use a tree
lowering device. Survival equipment and use. Water survival
training including parasailing off the deck of an LST to 400',
followed by water landing and blowing up flotation devices.
Being dragged in the parachute harness behind the LST to
simulate the chute not deflating upon water entry. Helicopter
pick-ups via horse collar. We did literally everything except
the actual bail-out itself.

I have personally been in two thermals where there was a
mid-air that took place. Both happened below me. On the
first one, one pilot kept flying, while the other pilot recovered
some control and landed at an airport turn point a mile or two
away. On the second mid-air, one guy broke his tail boom
and bailed out to land on the desert floor. The other guy had
a broken horizontal tail, but managed to land at the airport.
(pre-start gaggle over the airport) I watched the guy bail out.
He free-fell for a long time before he popped his chute, but he
had the altitude to do it safely.

RO

[Stéphane Vander Veken]

I never jumped, but I learned (from my parachute rigger) and teach some tricks that can be useful to somebody without practical experience:
- look at your D-ring when pulling, and pull in the right direction, in line with the cable housing;
- do not land with your back and legs completely straight, but slightly curved;
- close your mouth (no tongue between teeth), lower your chin;
- do not attempt to remain upright when landing, try to fall sideways;
- if landing into trees, put one foot above the other to avoid straddling a branch (I saw a skydiver fall that way on a concrete railing - I don't think he survived);
- and if the wind blows into your canopy after landing, reach for one of the chords and pull it in until the canopy collapses.

I don't feel inclined to try to jump, the only pilot I know who tried, ended up with six months in the hospital for a compound leg fracture that got infected (it was a tandem jump and his "mentor" made some stupid mistakes).

Stéphane

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/7/2021 7:49 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>> My observation of glider pilot bail outs: if they get they get out of the glider, they
>> survive, and usually with no more than minor injuries. I don't recall any wishing they'd
>> had jump training.
> And how many have you interviewed? And did you specifically ask that question?

I reported observations: no one was interviewed, no questions asked. The pilots I knew
were Graham Thompson, Tim Mara, Erick Larson, Bob Holiday, Dick Johnson, Dave Nadler, and
two or three others whose names I don't recall at the moment. The ones I didn't know I
read about in Soaring or heard from others about them.

[Alfredo Santoro]

This is an interesting publication on the subject. I Google-translated it into an acceptable english quite easily: http://www.planeur.net/_download/pdf-zip/Procedure-evacuation-parachutes.pdf

[Eric Greenwell]

It's in French when I download it :^(

[Tango Whisky]

Just copy/paste the text into Google Translate.

[George Haeh]

Really good information on parachute usage on planeur.net if you can work through the French. Some of it I had to read twice.

I suspect Google Translate will be challenged.

[2G]

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:57:49 PM UTC-7, georg...@gmail.com wrote:
> Really good information on parachute usage on planeur.net if you can work through the French. Some of it I had to read twice.
>
> I suspect Google Translate will be challenged.

The issue of getting parachute jump training gets down to does the training improve your chances of survival above your chances of getting injured. And those odds have to include the odds of actually bailing out, which are very low. Our bodies are getting older and more fragile, so the chance of injuring yourself during training are very good. If you are in your 30s go for it, it will probably be fun. You will also have many years of flying the increases your odds of bailing out. But if you are in your 70s, like I am, skip it - you are much more likely to get injured doing this training which, as others have said, won't simulate the conditions you will probably see in a real bailout.

Tom

[RR]

A good friend of mine had many sky diving friends. They were all on him to get some training so he would be better prepared if he needed to use his chute. He reluctantly agreed. As he was standing in the open door about to jump he turned around and announced to his friends "well this is stupid, it has to work the first time anyway!"

[Peter van Schoonhoven]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 5:24:36 AM UTC-7, RR wrote:
> A good friend of mine had many sky diving friends. They were all on him to get some training so he would be better prepared if he needed to use his chute. He reluctantly agreed. As he was standing in the open door about to jump he turned around and announced to his friends "well this is stupid, it has to work the first time anyway!"

When I was in my twenties, in 1977, flying from California City where there was a jump center, this discussion came up often. One of my friends was a Physicist from England. He decided to do a training jump. At that time it was a solo static line affair after a half day ground training for $90. He made the jump and broke his ankle. When asked if we should all do it so that we would be better prepared in the event we needed to bail out one day, his answer was " Not necessary. It is like practicing to bleed, when the time comes you will know what to do." Love that great British humor.

[R]

Excellent thread....

I was fortunate to attend the Pan Am Competition in Chilhowee a few years back experiencing a FAI Competition which includes paperwork, aircraft inspection, and...most valuable ...timed demonstration of my bailout procedure from a glider. How hard can it be, right?
I dicked it up big time .... from a glider on the ground, not moving twirling about with g-loads and thoughts of a 'close casket'. For me punching thru the 'Denial' then executing the egress correctly without pause is paramount as altitude=time may be critical.
Before I take off, I look down range and think thru my rope break or engine failure procedure. After buckling in, hooking up the pee hose, oxygen, water sip tube, and remote control cable... I review my egress sequence.

R

[John Good]

Here's my 2-cent contribution, based on ~400 sport jumps and one glider bailout (from an LS-4 that had lost 5' of its right wing). In no particular order:

- Chance of easy exit can be improved by increasing drag: think spoilers / positive flaps / landing gear.

- You should have practiced the steps necessary to eject the canopy and release your belts. Trying to work out the right steps while under pressure will likely add several costly seconds.

- Anything loose in the cockpit will probably be lost - as will anything (e.g. sunglasses / cellphone in your hand) not securely fastened to you or your harness.

- Emergency parachutes are very reliable, with a high probability of functioning correctly if the jumper can simply get clear of the glider and pull the ripcord. Refinements like a stable belly-to-earth position are unimportant.

- Essentially all emergency canopies are steerable; performance is modest. The best you're likely to achieve is to steer clear of serious hazards (e.g. powerlines) and to face into wind when landing.

- Best landing position is legs bent and leg muscles tense. Straight legs = increased chance of broken bones; relaxed leg muscles = high probability of butt strike leading to back injuries.

- Unless you have a decent amount of sport jumping experience, it's important not to look at the ground as you land. If you do, your instinct will be to straighten your legs as the ground rises up to greet you (encourages broken bones). Telling yourself not to do this won't prevent it.

- Your parachute canopy can be a valuable survival aid: it enormously increases your visibility to airborne searchers and can provide shelter and warmth.

- But the best way to be found is probably via a functioning ELT / PLB.

- Sport jumps as training are not a bad idea, but also not of great value - especially the first dozen or so. Yet if you plan to use a "square" reserve, you'd benefit from some experience flying one.

[Dan Marotta]

What John said.

Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

What John said.  Very well put.

Dan
5J

On 9/9/21 8:36 AM, John Good wrote:

[mrop...@gmail.com]

For those of you who are very concerned about potentially
landing in high trees or on the side of a cliff, you can buy
USAF surplus Personal Lowering Devices for about $40.
There are two kinds - one is a seat cushion that is attached
to your harness, and the other is split into two units to be
attached to your harness under each armpit. The device has
~140' of cord plus the hardware for using it to rappel down.
The only real issue is that you attach it to the chest strap D
ring of your harness, then loop it above/through both risers,
and then back to the chest strap D ring. The whole system
is predicated on using riser Quick Disconnect fittings to
disconnect your harness (with you in it) from the canopy and
risers. (Do this with one hand while you use the other arm/
elbow to hold you up by the riser that you are releasing - this
will avoid a sudden unpleasant drop of several feet.) This will
leave you hanging from the cord that will be looped through
the risers and attached to your chest D ring. You then use the
rappel hardware to let yourself slowly descend. (takes a little
practice - go real slow to avoid rope burns- just a little at a time)
Strong Enterprises sells the Quick Release fittings (to release
the chute after landing in high winds, etc), but unfortunately not
as a retrofit deal - only with a new build system. If you carry a
sharp survival knife in your smak-pak survival kit, you might be
able to cut through the webbing to do the same job. In the USAF,
we practiced using this system during our annual refresher
training.

https://www.omahas.com/shop/personal-lowering-device-2pc/

https://www.omahas.com/shop/pilot-s-lowering-device-new/

https://strongparachutes.com/Store/category/accessories/
capewell-riser-releases

We were taught that for a tree landing you cross your ankles
while pointing your toes down, and tuck your elbows in tight
to your chest while using both hands to cover your chin and
face.

For a powerline landing, cross your ankles, turn your head
sideways to either side (so the chin doesn't get caught), and
put both hands up on the inside of both forward risers. Then,
make an undulating motion with your body so as to try and
"snake" through the wires.

Now you know if you are so inclined to find this info necessary.

FWIW --- RO

[Waveguru]

I wonder how many bail outs there are in a year from gliders?

Boggs

[2G]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 3:58:29 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> I wonder how many bail outs there are in a year from gliders?
>
> Boggs

You can get an idea by reading glider accident reports which will list a bailout if occurred or was attempted. I personally know two people who bailed out, both successfully: Dave Nadler and Bob Holliday. I also know a person who refused a parachute before flying a new glider for the first time ("I don't need no fucking parachute!") and survived (barely) a flat spin because the CG was past the aft limit. Each bailout is a unique experience that is difficult to practice for. I recall one question asked of a Navy pilot who had to eject following a cold launch on an aircraft carrier:
Q. When did you decide to eject?
A. Ten years ago.
Moral: have your plan in place before getting into the glider.

Tom