Top Hat Question (XCSoar?)

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

I like Top Hat a lot. But as with an attractive woman who seems to fulfill all your wishes, things aren't quite perfect. And like most men, I just want to make one tiny change. It's driving me crazy. :)

I need two screens:

Circling screen: automatically displayed when I started to circle. Zoomed into a one-thermal view (e.g., 0.6 miles). Displays certain infoboxes (right now, nearly the same ones as the Cruise screen but can be customized).

Cruise screen: automatically displayed when I roll out and fly straight. Zoomed out to whatever level I had set before I circled, from typically from 5 to 30 miles, so I can see waypoints, landing fields, terrain, etc. Displays certain infoboxes (nearly the same ones as the Circling screen but can be customized).

AND...in addition to the automatic switching, whenever I'm circling (looking at the thermal view) and want to take a quick peek at the cruise screen, I can press the "Switch Screens" button on the screen (that I've enabled), and instantly zoom out to see what landing fields I can reach from my miserably low altitude. Then I can instantly switch back to the circling view with another press of the Screen button.

What I can do now:
1. manually switch between the two screens whenever I circle or cruise, with the appropriate zoom levels applying; this works fine but since the autosensing feature knows when I'm circling or flying straight, it would be easier to let the software switch screens;
OR
2. automatically zooms in to 0.6 miles whenever I stop to circle. This works great but requires me to press the "zoom out" button multiple times to see the "cruise" view when I'm circling, then another set of multiple presses to zoom back in to the thermal view;
OR
3. let the software autoswitch between climb and cruise screens but retains the same zoom level for both (I'm not even sure I have this because until recently I had the same infoboxes for circling as for cruising so I may have been looking at the same screen the entire time with different zoom levels; i.e., same as alternative 2, above).

I've tried multiple combinations of autozoom, distinct zoom, single screen/multiple screens, same set of infoboxes vs. multiple sets of infoboxes, setting one or both of the multiple screens as "auto", and probably some I can't recall. Some I've tried in flight, but many others I've tried using the "replay" function. Autozooming works fine there but not some of the other options.

Is anyone doing this now? All the parts are there. I just can't get them set up the way I want.

I believe Top Hat differs from XCSoar in the way users can switch screens (especially with gestures), so my difficulty may be there.

Chip Bearden

[Mike C]

Chip

Do you actually have a circling page and a cruise page set up or are you using the auto page unknowingly for both?

Mike

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

> Do you actually have a circling page and a cruise page set up or are you using the auto page unknowingly for both?

I've done it both ways [I think]. Originally defined two sets of infoboxes (climb and cruise) but I'd only defined (or activated?) one page. And I used automatic thermaling zoom (or whatever it's called; I don't have my Kobo here) to change the view when climbing. That worked great except when I wanted to quickly zoom out while circling.

When I realized that, I defined two pages, each of which has one set of infoboxes assigned/referenced. These don't seem to autoswitch in flight. When I assign one of those pages as "Auto" (per the help instructions), it either doesn't autoswitch when climbing or it does but retains the same zoom level as for cruising. And when I zoom in manually, it doesn't auto zoom out when I cruise again; it stays zoomed in until I change it manually. When I enable the autozoom function in this mode and press the Screens button to switch to cruise, it retains the zoomed in view and I have to manually zoom out anyway. At least I think that's what's happening. It's a chore to go into settings every few minutes in flight and still fly the glider.

I haven't tested every combination in flight so I'm assuming I just haven't stumbled across the right configuration settings. I thought Distinct Zoom would do it, and it does for manually switching screens. But not when hoping they will autoswitch. I'm 90% of the way there: I just need a way to force the application to autoswitch my screens as they are set up the same way I now manually switch them with the Screens button. Or so it seems....

Chip Bearden

[6PK]

Chip
I am using a Kobo Glo with Top Hat.
I am also using three different pages and different infoboxes (menu>look>infoboxes)selected for each page for; circling,cruise and final glide functions.
When in "cruise" as I start turning into a thermal it automatically switches to the "circling mode" ( also switches to thermal assist in addition to the new info boxes programed now show up) and when I leave the thermal after about 20 seconds or so it switches back to "cruise mode". The same with final glide.
I hope I am answering your question?

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

> I am using a Kobo Glo with Top Hat.
> I am also using three different pages and different infoboxes (menu>look>infoboxes)selected for each page for; circling,cruise and final glide functions.
> When in "cruise" as I start turning into a thermal it automatically switches to the "circling mode" ( also switches to thermal assist in addition to the new info boxes programed now show up) and when I leave the thermal after about 20 seconds or so it switches back to "cruise mode". The same with final glide.
> I hope I am answering your question?

What happens to the zoom level when the pages switch? If you were cruising with a zoom of 9.8 miles and then start to circle--and the zoom level in your last thermal was 0.6 miles--does the page zoom in to 0.6 miles when you start to circle? When you start cruising again, does the zoom level return to 9.8 miles? [I believe you would have to enable "Distinct Zoom" for this to work]. Since you have multiple pages set up, can you manually switch between those pages (the only way I know of is to enable the Screen switching button on the page and then press that button)? If/when you manually switch, do the circling and cruising pages retain their zoom levels?

If so, THAT'S WHAT I WANT!!

I played around with my Kobo Glo/Top Hat tonight and it appears that if I set up two sets of infoboxes (circle and cruise) and one page set on "Auto", the pages should switch from circling to cruising. I say "should" because they don't in replay or sim mode but the way I read the Help comments, they should. However, with one page set to "Auto", the Screen switching button disappears. So if I want to zoom out while I'm circling, I have to press the zoom out button multiple times, then reverse the process when I want to go back to circling mode. Ugh.

As a first try this weekend, I've configured two pages: one as "Auto" and the other as "Cruise". Each seems to retain the zoom level I set for it and I can page from Circling to Auto and back again by pressing the Screen switching button. What I suspect is that it will autoswitch just fine but always stay at one zoom level. If I enable thermaling zoom, that will override the zoomed out view on the Cruise page and I'm back where I started.

Chip Bearden

[Wyll Surf Air]

when I have used both XCSoar and Top hat they have both done exactly what you are asking for. My setting are
Look > pages > Infoboxes is set to auto
and

look > infoboxes > use final glide mode off

I also have different infoboxes for cruise mode and circling mode

make sure you are using the Advanced mode menue

when I am flying straight it is in cruise mode and zoomed out. then I start thermaling and it goes to circling mode and zooms into whatever zoom I used in the last thermal. Then when I leave the thermal it zooms out to whatever zoom I was at before the thermal. Just remember it will the zoom both in and out of circling mode are sticky so they will go back to what you were using the last time it was in that mode. Also you can test this out by replying an igc file at 1 or 2 times speed. If you replay at to fast a speed it won't trip the switch between cruise and climb.
Also in the GLide Computer > Experimental section, you can adjust the averaging time as well as turn radios that trips both going into and out of circling mode.

[waremark]

What Wyll and 6pk describe is what the OP wants EXCEPT he also wants to be able to make the switch manually so that when circling he can check the overview situation, then go back into circling mode.

My solution is to run 2 devices, one map zoomed in, the other showing an overview!

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 3:41:09 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> What Wyll and 6pk describe is what the OP wants EXCEPT he also wants to be able to make the switch manually so that when circling he can check the overview situation, then go back into circling mode.
>
> My solution is to run 2 devices, one map zoomed in, the other showing an overview!

That's what I had for many years: GNII running on a Compaq 1500 with whatever overhead view I was using to navigate (e.g., 5-20 miles) plus a Garmin handheld on the side of the cockpit permanently zoomed in so I could watch my track in a thermal from overhead--and explore under a cloud or nearby knowing I could follow the breadcrumbs back to the center. Despite the fact that the Garmin didn't have any indication of lift strength, more than once I made it home in the evening because I was able to sample other wisps or areas looking for better lift and then return to the weak but steady thermal I'd found earlier with ease, all without having to change or touch anything.

Such is progress. I'm almost ready to bolt the Garmin back into the cockpit. I'm frustrated that I can't get those two views without multiple presses of a touchscreen button (overriding the zoom when I let the Top Hat pages switch automatically) OR manually switching from cruise to climb (and back again) every time I stop to thermal. The sensors and algorithms are all there to sense when I'm circling and change the zoom level and infoboxes displayed. But I fear the logic to do what I want is not.

Chip Bearden

[Nick Kennedy]

Chip
If you can't get your tophat to work, I recommend just springing for a few bucks and getting a Oudie with SYM already loaded and running.
There not cheap but it works and it works good, never locks up and gets funky in flight.
Connected to a PowerFlarm it is a powerful idiot proof device with great support.
Fly Safe and good luck

[6PK]

Well described; that is exactly my experience ( accept I do have final glide set up but with the same nav boxes as cruise).

[6PK]

I will argue with that. SYM is a huge step back from either XCSoar or TopHat…

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 2:37:33 AM UTC-4, Wyll Surf Air wrote:
Just remember it will the zoom both in and out of circling mode are sticky so they will go back to what you were using the last time it was in that mode. Also you can test this out by replying an igc file at 1 or 2 times speed. If you replay at to fast a speed it won't trip the switch between cruise and climb.

Thanks--this was very helpful! Reducing the replay speed does allow certain automatic switching to occur. However, I still can't tell if I can do what I want. Fortunately this weekend looks very flyable so I'll get a chance to experiment...and will report the results.

Chip Bearden

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

> I will argue with that. SYM is a huge step back from either XCSoar or TopHat…

Based on my and other reported experiences, I think the best system is whatever you are comfortable with and is reliable. I've seen problems reported with a variety of hardware and software. I'm in the IT business and it's amazing to me that this stuff works as well as it does given the low volumes, whether it's commercial products like ClearNav or freeware such as Top Hat/XCSoar.

I've been flying with Top Hat for several years. Rob Dunning has responded multiple times with fixes and responses to requests. I think I know where the remaining bugs are (none of these applications is perfect) and have confidence that it's giving me what I need. Functionally, it does nearly everything I want it to do and I have workarounds for the gaps. I'm just trying to close some of those gaps.

I'm sure SYM and the Oudie are fine but I've played with both and am not tempted to enter another "relationship" now. :)

Chip Bearden

[Martin Gregorie]

On Fri, 06 Jul 2018 08:54:40 -0700, chip.bearden wrote:

> Based on my and other reported experiences, I think the best system is
> whatever you are comfortable with and is reliable. I've seen problems
> reported with a variety of hardware and software. I'm in the IT business
> and it's amazing to me that this stuff works as well as it does given
> the low volumes, whether it's commercial products like ClearNav or
> freeware such as Top Hat/XCSoar.
>

I was also in the IT business, now retired. I think a major reason this
stuff works as well as it does is that the developers are (all?) also
active users of this stuff. That is not knocking professional developers,
just pointing out that they are seldom active users of what they write
and IMO this factor makes a huge difference, especially to usability and
GUI design.

I flew with XCSoar for a few years, but switched to LK8000 whe nit
appeared because I prefer its user interface, which took less effort to
set up the way I want it that XCSoar did, and on a good day with no
weather or airspace issues to force changes of plan I won't touch it from
launch to landing. I've looked at SYM but prefer LK8000.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[John Foster]

I can't agree with you enough on this point you make about software developers who actually use their product in real everyday life! This applies not only to soaring, but in almost every aspect of software development, especially when it comes to electronic medical record systems. (sorry, don't mean to derail the thread here, but this is a pet peeve of mine).

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Just to close the loop on this Top Hat question, it does not appear that I can do what I want to do. I flew both days this past weekend and tried different configurations. Top Hat will autoswitch from cruise screen to circling screen and back again. It will autozoom when circling so the pilot can see the zoomed-in overhead view of the track within a thermal. And it will allow one-click switching from zoomed-in thermaling view (including whatever infoboxes are configured for the circling screen) to zoomed-out cruise view (with the cruising infoboxes).

But it will not automatically switch from cruise screen (zoomed out) to circling screen (autozoomed in) and allow one-click switching back to the cruise view to get a quick pick at nearby landing sites, other gliders (with FLARM input), and surrounding terrain and airspace.

I compromised on one-click manual switching from cruise to climb. It's better for me than the autozoom into thermaling view because I can switch to zoomed out view with only one click on the Screens button. But the manual switching each time I want the circling view is annoying because all the logic is there to autoswitch and zoom; I just can't control them to get the effect I want.

Thanks for the input! I'm not sure there's a lot of development work being done on Top Hat at the moment but I'll submit this as a request.

Chip Bearden

[moshe....@gmail.com]

Thanks Chip. I second your request. Specifically: after I manually switch from (auto-entered) circling screen to cruise screen I want to be able to manually go back to the circling screen. Robert Dunning has made other changes to Tophat by request before, hopefully he'll do it again. And Thank You Robert for this nice software!

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

> Thanks Chip. I second your request. Specifically: after I manually switch from (auto-entered) circling screen to cruise screen I want to be able to manually go back to the circling screen. Robert Dunning has made other changes to Tophat by request before, hopefully he'll do it again. And Thank You Robert for this nice software!

I agree, Rob Dunning has been great, helping push through a number of changes I asked about in the two years since I started using Top Hat. I wasn't sure this latest one required a software change; I thought I might just not have configured it properly, that everyone else was already flying around with this feature.

But it appears not (please show me I'm wrong!!!). From my perspective, the change isn't significant: i.e., just autoswitch between cruise and climb--as occurs now--while retaining the user's most recent zoom levels for each screen--which doesn't appear to occur now (the same zoom level is used for both screens). I had thought the Distinct Zoom feature--which presumably changed zoom to a screen-level rather than a global parameter--took care of this but that appears to be true only for manually switched screens, not autoswitching.

Chip Bearden

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

And, I should add, in addition to autoswitching, allow manual switching from climb to cruise or vice versa at any time, while retaining the same pre-existing zoom levels for each screen.

Chip Bearden

[jackj...@gmail.com]

Yes I agree. I with your request Chip. I have a second question. Is there a way to fix the screen on cruise? If there is I cant find it. The only choice I can find is setting "auto zoom" to "manual" which I assume still automatically switches to circling.

[Wyll Surf Air]

If you go to look > pages
And in the infobox section select cruise (rathere then auto) then it will lock it in cruise

[jackj...@gmail.com]

Thank you. That was a big help. I actually have two screens running and want to fix one on cruise.

[Soartech]

On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 9:59:57 PM UTC-4, Wyll Surf Air wrote:
> If you go to look > pages
> And in the infobox section select cruise (rathere then auto) then it will lock it in cruise

Is there really a menu item called LOOK? I have never seen it in either program. Where is it?

[resi...@sbcglobal.net]

Config -> System -> Look. It shows up in both standard and advanced menus.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

A very long, detailed, and not-guaranteed-accurate post for Top Hat users in response to a couple of questions. Don't say you weren't warned! Just my interpretation. Would love to hear other views and better ways. The XCSoar User Manual is detailed but overwhelming in the breadth of its offerings and not always specific to Top Hat, which differs in some ways. Nearly all of the comments are based on my experience with Top Hat on a Kobo Glo, althought I've flown with it on a Dell Streak 5 and played with it in SIM mode on a Windows PC.

As I understand it, Top Hat screens (pages) are defined when the user selects (i) orientation: portrait vs. landscape and (ii) the number and location (right, left, top, bottom, split) of infoboxes that are displayed. This template serves for all screens, more or less.

To set up a cruise screen:

While in SIM mode (one of the choices on the main screen), press "M" 3 times and then press the gear icon to get to Settings. Then:
>Screen (brings you to the "Set up screen" page)
>Display Orientation (select one; I'm using Portrait but have tried Landscape, too, and it may depend on your device)
>Infobox Geometry (select one: I'm using "10 bottom or right"--which may not be available in earlier versions--but have played with other settings).

Then:
>Infoboxes > Cruise (the other pre-set modes are Circling, Final Glide, and AUX-1). Then click an infobox at the bottom of the screen, then click whatever is in the Content box in the middle of that screen, then scroll through the available infoboxes and Select one to be displayed in that infobox on the Cruise screen*. Set up each infobox this way.

[*There are a LOT of infoboxes, some of which make more sense to me than others. Some seem like techno gadgets but who knows? Some are buggy. In answer to the obvious question: I no longer know the status but one bug was the average speed on course adjusted for altitude lost/gained since the start--a really cool idea that wasn't implemented properly. Several others involved variations on final glide status: at one time I had 3 or 4 different versions displayed including the bar on the left side of the screen but only the latter seemed to be consistently accurate; when adjusting for finish cylinder diameters and minimum altitudes and safety altitude(s), some of the other boxes were clearly not agreeing with each other and the team found a bug in at least one of them. Rob Dunning told me just to use the "Final Glide" bar on the left side of the main screens that always shows altitude needed to complete the entire task so that's what I do.]

Now is a good time to set up your Circling screen infoboxes, too. Click "Copy" (to copy all of your Cruise infobox selections), then go back one screen (the left arrow coming out of a rectangle icon, which--defying good practice--can appear almost anywhere on different screens) and select the Circling screen, then paste the same infoboxes in it, then edit whichever ones you want to change. Then return two pages to the "Set up screens page" again.

>Screens >Add (a new screen) then select choices for the three areas on the page:
>Main Area>click on content that's already there and then select (I use Map)
>Bottom Area>click on content already there and then select (I currently use Nothing)
>Infoboxes>click on content already there and select (here's where you select "Cruise", which will "import" the Cruise infoboxes you selected in the previous step). If, instead, you select "Auto" for the screen choice, the cruise screen (i.e., your master screen template but with the Cruise infoboxes) appears to be displayed whenever you're flying straight while the Circling screen displays when you circle. The way mine is set up, the same zoom level is displayed for both screens, even when "Distinct Zoom" (see below) is enabled.

Set up a Final Glide screen if you desire (lots of discussion about this in the XCSoar manual plus the short help messages in Top Hat).

NOTE: If you want your Circling screen to zoom into a tight overhead view automatically, enable "Circling Zoom". From Settings>Advanced>Map Display>Orientation>Circling Zoom>On. [full disclosure: I'm not 100% certain whether this is the way to enable automatic thermal zoom or whether it's through the Auto Zoom button on the second "M" navigation screen because I don't use it anymore and I can't make either of them work in SIM mode to test]

If you don't select "Auto" for any of your screens, then you have to manually switch them when you shift from climb to cruise and back again. I believe "Auto" functions the same way even when you have one screen set to "Auto" and another set to "Cruise" or "Circling". I haven't figured out how to switch between screens manually if one is set to "Auto" (see below).

To allow easy manual screen switching, go to the main settings screen:
>Advanced >Look>Screen Layout>Screens button location>On the map. I don't see this option in the PC version; only on my Kobo. And I don't believe this "S" screen switching button is displayed if any of the screens is set to "Auto". But I don't know how to switch screens manually without it (none of the usual gestures worked for me). I tried setting my circling screen to Auto with a separate Cruise screen but the "S" switching button still didn't appear, although it did reappear after I removed the "Auto" designation for all screens.

IF you have the option to display the "S" button on the screen but choose not to, you can also switch screens from a button on the second "M" menu. But I prefer to have it on the main screen. It's fewer clicks and the "S" button also has a tiny caption that tells you which screen you're seeing. If you have different infoboxes for Cruise and Circling, you'll know anyway but I haven't always set things up that way.

"Distinct Zoom" (enabled on the same page as Circling Zoom) works well when you switch screens manually because unlike autoswtiching, in this case the zoom levels for each screen remain wherever you set them (e.g., zoomed in for thermaling, zoomed out for cruise). It seems like auto-switched screens should behave the same way (i.e., carry with them their unique zoom levels) but that's not what is happening with my Kobo.

If you're using Top Hat's Thermal Assistant (enable it on the second "M" menu), you may not care about a zoomed-in view of the thermal, but I do. Thermal Assistant give you its interpretation of the lift profile in the thermal but not your track through it. My ClearNav vario has a really excellent thermal assistant (that it autoswitches to when circling...most of the time) so I want my Top Hat circling screen to display my path through the thermal from overhead. That's important especially as I'm completing my first 270 after pulling up and whenever I'm exploring different parts of the thermal and want to be able to return to a spot.

Sorry for the long post and likely errors and omissions. I'd love to hear from others about better ways to configure and use Top Hat. It's not perfect but is quite good for contest flying with perhaps a slightly better user interface and definitely less complexity (at the cost of less customizability) than XCSoar. XCSoar adherents will probably say, justifiably, that once you get that system set up properly and learn how to use it, it's very powerful, too. Top Hat is not as customizable as XCSoar--on which it is based--but the design philosophy was to eliminate as much of the complexity of XCSoar as possible, leaving what's needed for competition. I think Rob Dunning and the TH team have done that well. I still have a wish list, haha, but I'm more comfortable with TH all the time.

Coming from Chip Garner's super-easy-to-use Glide Navigator II, I decided to try TH first because I wanted something I could come back to after a 6-month layoff and still remember how to use. TH isn't as good as GNII in that regard (I suspect nothing is, although ClearNav is probably closer) but it's good enough, although it took me several seasons and a lot of experimentation to feel that way.

Top Hat could benefit from a thoroughly documented User Manual but I know from experience that this is rather low on everyone's to-do lists. :)

Chip Bearden

[Mike C]

> Chip Bearden The XC Soar manual is relevant to learning Top Hat.


The XC Soar manual is relevant to Top Hat. The main difference is how the info is presented, not how it is set up.

Mike

[moshe....@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 5:24:36 PM UTC-4, chip.b...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...

>
> To allow easy manual screen switching, go to the main settings screen:

> >Advanced >Look>Screen Layout>Screens button location>On the map. I don't see this option in the PC version; only on my Kobo. And I don't believe this "S" screen switching button is displayed if any of the screens is set to "Auto". ...

- I have the circling screen appear automatically, and still have the "S" button. I can manually go from the circling screen to the cruise screens (I have 3 of those defined) but cannot seem to then go back to the circling screen. Once I enter the next thermal the circling screen re-appears. If I could cycle manually back to the circling screen I'd be happy enough. (They have separate zoom settings, although that seems to sometimes mess up.) All this in a recent beta version of Tophat on a Nook.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 8:24:36 PM UTC-4, Mike C wrote:
>The XC Soar manual is relevant to learning Top Hat.
>
>
> The XC Soar manual is relevant to Top Hat. The main difference is how the info is presented, not how it is set up.
>
> Mike

Mike, you must work in IT. :D

I absolutely agree that the XCSoar Manual is relevant to Top Hat, more so than anything else I could find. But it's 187 (!!!) pages long, and much of the functionality described in it is not included in Top Hat. It's like telling someone that the answer they need is on the Internet. Go find it.

And setting up Top Hat IS different. It's a different user interface, including different screens and menuing. If you know what you want to find and do a search for it in the XCSoar manual, it's usually there. For example, I finally found the difference between Auto Zoom (zooms in when approaching turnpoints) and Circling Zoom (zooms in when thermaling). Then you have to find where it is in the Top Hat set up screens and menus.

But the Top Hat info is buried among things like: "Reach calculations may be configured to two levels of detail...If turning reach is enabled, then the reach shows the greatest area the glider can reach in all directions, even allowing turns around obstructions.[The maximum number of turns is set to three, and no turns may be greater than 90 degrees.]" This bit of "techno geeks go gliding" esoterica--just one paragraph out of 1 1/2 pages on the subject in the manual, is fun to read but not relevant to any U.S. contest flying I am familiar with. And, thankfully, it is not present (to my knowledge) in Top Hat.

So after inquiring of (a) the development team, (b) a user who's been involved in Top Hat almost from the beginning, and (c) various experts on RAS, I'm still not sure whether what I want to do can be done through configuration settings.

Chip Bearden

[Tango Eight]

Is anyone else enjoying the irony as much as I am :-)?

Jus' curious.

Goin' flying today (yippee!). I don't plan to spend much time looking at a computer.

T8

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

T8,

I was thinking about proposing that the ClearNav software be made open source. Then we could all enjoy the fun. :)

JB

[moshe....@gmail.com]

No irony Evan. Every software effort has ongoing bugs and enhancements. The fact that Tophat is as useful as it is, while being free, is wonderful. Big thanks to the developers, especially Robert Dunning! And yes we want to look outside the cockpit mostly, but without some sort of glide computer we'd either be lost, spend more time deciphering paper maps, or stay closer to airports to make sure we can glide there.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

> No irony Evan. Every software effort has ongoing bugs and enhancements. The fact that Tophat is as useful as it is, while being free, is wonderful. Big thanks to the developers, especially Robert Dunning!

I agree. I hope no one has misinterpreted my queries and comments. When I decided not to spend the money on a commercial flight computer, I was prepared to live with some lower level of functionality and higher level of UI aggravation. Instead, I've been amazed at how powerful Top Hat is.

I also think the TH team have mostly delivered on their goal of "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" without giving up functions needed for competition.

I've occasionally brought my handheld device running Top Hat to dinner with pilots who own commercial flight computer systems and passed it around to get their input. Their reactions have been quite interesting. They've seen things they like better about Top Hat while at the same time commenting about things they think their systems do better. I've confessed to the aggravating hardware problems I've had and they've done the same. :) None of these is perfect. I suspect we'd all like to take the best from each to get the perfect product.

And, yes, all of these products--commercial and freeware--still have some bugs. That's inevitable; our soaring market is just too small to justify the kind of investment and testing that something built in the millions of units can justify.

Indeed, kudos to Rob Dunning's team. I've had the happy experience of seeing most of my issues resolved fairly quickly.

Chip Bearden

[Soartech]

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 11:14:06 AM UTC-4, resi...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Config -> System -> Look. It shows up in both standard and advanced menus.

Thank you!

[Tango Eight]

You can't do open source for a secure flight recorder, sorry!

T8

[Tango Eight]

Do a search for Chip's r.a.s. contributions as far as GPS vs pilotage and maybe you'll get the irony :-).

TopHat is idea rich and a lot of Rob's ideas are very good and I'd put 'em in ClearNav if I could! If TH works for you, that's fine. Understand that there's quite a lot that CN just does better and it is vastly more robust. One example: What happens if you lose power momentarily with TopHat? Here's what happens with ClearNav: nothing! Task and stats are retained along with the validity of the flight log.

T8

[WB]

Well, actually, if my Kobo mini running TopHat gets disconnected from ships power, it just keeps on running on the Kobo's internal batteries. Now, if the GPS feeding data to my Kobo loses power, then I have a problem with the flight log, but I don't use the Kobo as my primary logger anyway. Got a PFlarm and a Nano 3 for that. By the way, what happens if a ClearNav dies in the middle of a contest? Do most ClearNav users keep a spare ClearNav around? I got a backup Kobo mini in the side pocket in my cockpit (have not had to use it so far).

This is not to say that I wouldn't rather have a ClearNav. In fact, even though I don't own a ClearNav (at present),I very much appreciate the investment, effort, and dedication to the sport that it takes to develop, manufacture and market the ClearNav or any other instrumentation for the soaring market.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Fair enough on my past objections to GPS. :D They were, at the heart of it, primarily financial. I tossed an inexpensive handheld GPS receiver into the cockpit as soon as they were legal and happily coupled it to my LNAV with Dave Ellis's help. My real objective was to slow down the headlong rush to mandatory flight recorders until the oft-promised plunge in prices arrived. IIRC, those things were over $3,000 in the mid 90s. Anyway, I'm nothing if not adaptable: still trying to do it on the cheap! Haha!

I didn't mean to compare Top Hat and ClearNav. I'm still trying to find a better display for TH so I'd love to have a ClearNav. It looks great. And I love my ClearNav vario (not everything about it, as T8 knows, but it's the best vario I've flown with). I just don't want to pay up for the CN nav display.

[I'm waiting for someone to tell me that a few thousand bucks spread over the remaining years of my soaring career is nothinig; or that I owe it to myself; or that CN is safer and isn't my life worth the price; or something "helpful" like that. ;) ]

I was surprised but pleased to discover just how good TH is, but I have no idea how it compares to CN. Pilot buddies who have flown both (or XCSoar) usually say TH/XCS has 80% to 90% of what CN does. If I ever fly with a CN, I might be less happy with TH. It's certainly not perfect, which is how this thread started.

I agree with WB that you picked a bad example in citing a power loss. I, too, am shielded by the internal battery in the Kobo. And I did have a problem with my Kobo in Cordele last summer (not power, but the GPS feed). I pulled my Dell Streak 5 out, slapped it in the X mount, and was in business a minute later (I always pre-load the task in both devices). The comforting thing is that unlike the Kobo, the Dell is completely self contained including GPS, needing only a USB battery pack for long flights. And while I would lose my CN vario's flight recorder if the power went down, my PowerFLARM Portable/flight recorder also has its own batteries so it will keep chugging away until I get home (take that, Dave Kinsell!).

But all is not lost with CN. I know several well-off types who have redundant purpose-built flight computers and presumably separate power supplies. One well regarded pilot I chatted with at Cordele has a high-end flight computer and also carries a phablet running XCSoar: he says each does certain things better and he uses both.

Regarding open source, it might involve rearchitecting the CN to do it, but I was referring only to the navigation software, just like TH and XCS often get their GPS data from IGC-certified flight recorders such as my PowerFLARM and CNv. But with such a great application in CN already, I'm not sure why you would do it...except for your comment about loving to adopt some of Rob Dunning's TH ideas for use in CN if you could. Hmmmm.

Chip Bearden

[Dan Marotta]

On 7/14/2018 7:53 PM, chip.b...@gmail.com wrote: <My edits to Chip's
statements.>
> A few thousand bucks spread over the remaining years of your soaring career is nothinig. You owe it to yourself. Isn't your life worth the price?

See how easy that was?  Spend your money now while you can enjoy it
rather than using it to pay someone else to wipe your chin when you
drool...  Said with affection. ;-)

--
Dan, 5J

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

<See how easy that was? Spend your money now while you can enjoy it
rather than using it to pay someone else to wipe your chin when you
drool... Said with affection. ;-)

Taken. :)

Unfortunately, there's always another $2000 item that a conscientious soaring pilot simply must buy: new parachute, a square chute, PowerFLARM, transponder, ADS-B, enhanced satellite tracker (ok, not as much money), better flight computer, better vario, etc. To paraphrase an attribution of the late Sen. Everett Dirksen, a few thousand here, a few thousand there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money. :)

Chip Bearden

[Brian]

Maybe a bit off Topic. I have been using Tophat for a few years now. I started running it on a Nook Simple Touch. I loved the black and white sunlight readable display, but after a couple years the Nook seem to be getting slow. So I tried a Nexus 7. I liked the color display (hint turning the Terrain display off helps a lot) but it is not near as sunlight readable as the Nook was, but was good enough 95% of the time or better. Only when the sun was behind me would I occasionally get a glare on it that made it unreadable until I turned or shaded it with something. After a year or two I upgraded to a Nexus 2 - 2013 which had a slightly better display and was faster.

The other thing I really like about the Nexus is it is a totally self contained unit, It has it's own GPS so you can literally just carry it to the airplane and go fly. I had K6 Bluetooth adapter attached to my FLarm so with a bit of configuration it was receiving Flarm Data as well. I do sometimes connect external power to it, but the Nexus usually will last a 5 hour flight just fine.

Last year I put a S80 in my glider and added the Bluetooth module, It works pretty well but the bluetooth module is not quite as robust as the K6 module. The S80 bluetooths occasionally(almost Rarely) requirs a restart of the tablet or S80 to get it to link up, but once linked I never have any trouble during the flight.

A couple weeks ago flying the Region 8 contest about 9am I discovered my Nexus 7 touch screen had died, it would not respond to any touch commands. at 10:30 after the pilots meeting I went to the local Walmart and purchased a Samsung Tab 7 8gb for under $90. (they only had a display model available, normally $120). By the 1pm launch I had updated the software on the Tablet, installed Tophat, the Waypoint, airspace, and terrain files and had configured it to communicate with my S80 and had a working flight computer for the day. In summery I went from no flight computer other than the (S80 that I use for a backup) to my normal working flight computer in under about 2 hours and under a $100 investment. Try that when your dedicated flight computer dies:), it may cost you more than that in just shipping and won't be a same day fix.

I am actually very pleased with the Samsung, The display is as good or even slightly better than the Nexus and it is faster. I wish it had a bit more memory than 8GB but does have a place for a MicroSD card if I need more space. I ran it with power connected, so not sure how the battery life is with it standalone, but It seems like it would be as good as the Nexus.

I think Tophat works very well, I only wish it did a bit better job a providing tactical Flarm traffic information. I don't use it for traffic avoidance but it would be nice if it kept track of Flarm traffic a bit better. Something like LK8000 or some other displays (Avionic) that show where traffic was or might be even though the signal is gone. With the right display it could even show Statistical climb information about the other gliders thermal and even mark a likely location to intercept the same thermal even after other glider has left the thermal. That way I don't have to be looking at the display as much or take near as long to trying and calculate information that computers are very good at doing.

To the original question, with nothing other than the minimum required changes Tophat, on the Nexus and Samsung, automatically switches between Thermalling and Cruise mode with and retains the zoom level for each screen, usually zoomed in for thermalling and zoomed out for cruise for me. I have never had issues with this no not sure why others seem to be having issues.

Brian

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Brian,

Interesting stuff, especially about the color display and faster processor. I've noticed the Kobo is slower even than the Dell Streak 5 in some ways and I suspect that some of the uneven FLARM target performance I see is related to CPU and/or the ability to write to the display quickly enough. Sometimes a target will have the lift strength tagged, sometimes the competition ID, occasionally both, and sometimes just the target itself. It seems like switching off terrain and other features gives me better FLARM target depiction but it's difficult to be certain. This doesn't seem to be related to range, so I'm inclined to blame bandwidth (my PowerFLARM and Kobo are at 19,200--which I've tried to increase unsuccessfully) or video processing power.

Regarding your last comment, I was able to achieve autoswitching from Cruise to Climb and back again with zoom levels retained for each, as you described. What I couldn't get is a way to quickly switch to the other screen/zoom level with one press of a button. On my system (v2.2.2b on a Kobo), the Switch button disappears when one of the pages is set to Auto but another poster said that wasn't the case with his system. TH is ported to different platforms in different versions so I'm wondering if that's a factor here.

Chip Bearden

[Dan Marotta]

Using XCSoar you can switch between displays by swiping left to right or
right to left.  Don't know if Top Hat retained that functionality.

Regarding Android devices for running these programs, I have found that
the Android operating system is clogged with a lot of bloatware that is
not needed for a device which is dedicated to soaring.  Do some research
and learn how to root the device and then flash a slimmed down operating
system.  My Nexus 7 2012 went from totally unusable (with XCSoar being
the only downloaded program) to blindingly fast when I flashed SlimKat
4.4 on it.  Now I can even run other aviation related apps and it's
still much faster than it ever was out of the box.

--
Dan, 5J

[Mike C]

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 3:27:03 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Using XCSoar you can switch between displays by swiping left to right or
right to left.  Don't know if Top Hat retained that functionality.

Software button with Top Hat. Very handy and not as clumsy (to me) as the swipe.

Mike

[bythes...@gmail.com]

> Software button with Top Hat. Very handy and not as clumsy (to me) as the swipe.
>
> Mike

I agree - it is much more intuitive to swipe to Pan and to press the button to change info box screens. When I used XCSOAR I use to change screens by accident once in a while.

Top Hat is really well thought out and a good improvement to a great piece of software.

WH

[john firth]

On Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 4:25:27 PM UTC-4, chip.b...@gmail.com wrote:
> I like Top Hat a lot. But as with an attractive woman who seems to fulfill all your wishes, things aren't quite perfect. And like most men, I just want to make one tiny change. It's driving me crazy. :)
>
> I need two screens:
>
> Circling screen: automatically displayed when I started to circle. Zoomed into a one-thermal view (e.g., 0.6 miles). Displays certain infoboxes (right now, nearly the same ones as the Cruise screen but can be customized).
>
> Cruise screen: automatically displayed when I roll out and fly straight. Zoomed out to whatever level I had set before I circled, from typically from 5 to 30 miles, so I can see waypoints, landing fields, terrain, etc. Displays certain infoboxes (nearly the same ones as the Circling screen but can be customized).
>
> AND...in addition to the automatic switching, whenever I'm circling (looking at the thermal view) and want to take a quick peek at the cruise screen, I can press the "Switch Screens" button on the screen (that I've enabled), and instantly zoom out to see what landing fields I can reach from my miserably low altitude. Then I can instantly switch back to the circling view with another press of the Screen button.
>
> What I can do now:
> 1. manually switch between the two screens whenever I circle or cruise, with the appropriate zoom levels applying; this works fine but since the autosensing feature knows when I'm circling or flying straight, it would be easier to let the software switch screens;
> OR
> 2. automatically zooms in to 0.6 miles whenever I stop to circle. This works great but requires me to press the "zoom out" button multiple times to see the "cruise" view when I'm circling, then another set of multiple presses to zoom back in to the thermal view;
> OR
> 3. let the software autoswitch between climb and cruise screens but retains the same zoom level for both (I'm not even sure I have this because until recently I had the same infoboxes for circling as for cruising so I may have been looking at the same screen the entire time with different zoom levels; i.e., same as alternative 2, above).
>
> I've tried multiple combinations of autozoom, distinct zoom, single screen/multiple screens, same set of infoboxes vs. multiple sets of infoboxes, setting one or both of the multiple screens as "auto", and probably some I can't recall. Some I've tried in flight, but many others I've tried using the "replay" function. Autozooming works fine there but not some of the other options.
>
> Is anyone doing this now? All the parts are there. I just can't get them set up the way I want.
>
> I believe Top Hat differs from XCSoar in the way users can switch screens (especially with gestures), so my difficulty may be there.
>
> Chip Bearden

I have been running TH on a Kobo; it recently started changing screens
unasked , ; not just between cruise and climb; a waypoint list appeared!
Now it refuses to connect to the PC at all; tried two USB cables and two PC s.

John F

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Just to close the loop: For the Midlothian Std. Nats, I configured a cruise page and a climb page, each of which maintains whatever zoom level(s) I set. I just toggled between the two manually whenever I stopped to thermal and again just before I rolled out to cruise again, or whenever I needed to check the big picture (zoomed out) view in a thermal.

I like TopHat a lot. I wish there were a way of autoinvoking the circling page while preserving the ability to quickly switch back and forth to the cruise page but I never could find it.

Chip Bearden

[6PK]

I recently bought a Galaxy Tab 7 tablet and tried Bluetooth connection with the k6bt2 but was not able to connect.
I contacted the k6 folks and I was advised that the k6bt2 is needing "profile SPP" which my Tab does not support and it will not work. So... what am I missing here? Wrong Tab??

[Roger Burghall]

At 21:15 28 October 2018, 6PK wrote:
>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 11:48:16 AM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
>> Maybe a bit off Topic. I have been using Tophat for a few years now. I

>st=

>arted running it on a Nook Simple Touch. I loved the black and white

>sunlig=

>ht readable display, but after a couple years the Nook seem to be getting

>s=

>low. So I tried a Nexus 7. I liked the color display (hint turning the

>Terr=

>ain display off helps a lot) but it is not near as sunlight readable as

>the=

> Nook was, but was good enough 95% of the time or better. Only when the

>sun=

> was behind me would I occasionally get a glare on it that made it

>unreadab=

>le until I turned or shaded it with something. After a year or two I

>upgrad=

>ed to a Nexus 2 - 2013 which had a slightly better display and was
faster.

>>=20

>> The other thing I really like about the Nexus is it is a totally self

>con=

>tained unit, It has it's own GPS so you can literally just carry it to
the

>=

>airplane and go fly. I had K6 Bluetooth adapter attached to my FLarm so

>wit=

>h a bit of configuration it was receiving Flarm Data as well. I do

>sometime=

>s connect external power to it, but the Nexus usually will last a 5 hour

>fl=
>ight just fine.
>>=20

>> Last year I put a S80 in my glider and added the Bluetooth module, It

>wor=

>ks pretty well but the bluetooth module is not quite as robust as the K6

>mo=

>dule. The S80 bluetooths occasionally(almost Rarely) requirs a restart of

>t=

>he tablet or S80 to get it to link up, but once linked I never have any

>tro=
>uble during the flight.
>>=20

>> A couple weeks ago flying the Region 8 contest about 9am I discovered
my

>=

>Nexus 7 touch screen had died, it would not respond to any touch
commands.

>=

>at 10:30 after the pilots meeting I went to the local Walmart and

>purchased=

> a Samsung Tab 7 8gb for under $90. (they only had a display model

>availabl=

>e, normally $120). By the 1pm launch I had updated the software on the

>Tabl=

>et, installed Tophat, the Waypoint, airspace, and terrain files and had

>con=

>figured it to communicate with my S80 and had a working flight computer

>for=

> the day. In summery I went from no flight computer other than the (S80

>tha=

>t I use for a backup) to my normal working flight computer in under about

>2=

> hours and under a $100 investment. Try that when your dedicated flight

>com=

>puter dies:), it may cost you more than that in just shipping and won't
be

>=
>a same day fix.
>>=20

>> I am actually very pleased with the Samsung, The display is as good or

>ev=

>en slightly better than the Nexus and it is faster. I wish it had a bit

>mor=

>e memory than 8GB but does have a place for a MicroSD card if I need more

>s=

>pace. I ran it with power connected, so not sure how the battery life is

>wi=

>th it standalone, but It seems like it would be as good as the Nexus.

>>=20

>> I think Tophat works very well, I only wish it did a bit better job a

>pro=

>viding tactical Flarm traffic information. I don't use it for traffic

>avoid=

>ance but it would be nice if it kept track of Flarm traffic a bit
better.

>=

>Something like LK8000 or some other displays (Avionic) that show where

>traf=

>fic was or might be even though the signal is gone. With the right
display

>=

>it could even show Statistical climb information about the other gliders

>th=

>ermal and even mark a likely location to intercept the same thermal even

>af=

>ter other glider has left the thermal. That way I don't have to be
looking

>=

>at the display as much or take near as long to trying and calculate

>informa=

>tion that computers are very good at doing.

>>=20

>> To the original question, with nothing other than the minimum required

>ch=

>anges Tophat, on the Nexus and Samsung, automatically switches between

>Ther=

>malling and Cruise mode with and retains the zoom level for each screen,

>us=

>ually zoomed in for thermalling and zoomed out for cruise for me. I have

>ne=

>ver had issues with this no not sure why others seem to be having issues.

>>=20

>> Brian
>
>I recently bought a Galaxy Tab 7 tablet and tried Bluetooth connection

>with=

> the k6bt2 but was not able to connect.
>I contacted the k6 folks and I was advised that the k6bt2 is needing

>"profi=

>le SPP" which my Tab does not support and it will not work. So... what am

>I=
> missing here? Wrong Tab??
>
When I was unable to connect my Galaxy A5 phone via bluetooth, I installed
"BToolkit" and used it to make my phone visible (the Settings option said
it already was; it wasn't) after which I was able to connect. Your problem
could well be different - then again it might not. Good luck.