Those Damned Motorgliders

[Dan Marotta]

Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and only
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.

Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are
working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while
before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get
all of the fun between weekends.

--
Dan
5J

[Charles Longley]

You trying to Troll my buddy Bob? Personally I would rather stay on the ground.

Charlie

[Dan Marotta]

Rather stay on the ground? Or troll Bob?

Bob's my buddy, but he's been trolling us motorglider guys for years.
It's not there to save my behind, it's there to get me airborne!

Dan
5J

[John Johnson]

I moved to a MG last Aug and I'm truly enjoying the self-launch freedom (and the better performance vs my previous glider). However, I'll concede a few points the purists make based on my limited experience to-date.

1) Expensive, Complicated: It takes a commitment to learn and properly maintain a MG. I've seen a number of non-motorized gliders that are maintained sufficiently to pass annual inspections but not really kept in top form by their owners. Often, the owners aren't mechanically inclined (or simply disinclined) and not really able/willing to identify and address minor degradation issues until they become quite noticeable. Typical: slop in the controls, bad radio, scratched up canopy, low tire pressure, sticking canopy latches, neglected finish, crappy brakes, etc (with a trailer to match). But these gliders still fly, get a lot of cycles, and seem to perform just fine. If a MG is kept in that same fashion, at a minimum the thrust generating bits are going to degrade and fail.

2) Much more pre-flight tasks: Aside from all the motor and prop-related inspections and prep like fueling and oil, the glider has a more readiness demands. It needs multiple batteries to maintain/charge. It's heavy so I can't push it out to the line by myself anymore. At my site I need to tow it out, return and stow my vehicle, then find my way back out to line. Pre-launch and launch checklists are very lengthy with more critical steps. I'm now responsible for all the launch related responsibilities that the tow pilot would have handled for me (I have zero power experience so this is a big deal for me).

3) XC Confidence Advantage: Sorry if this offends some but I am definitely experiencing a distinct confidence boost in my XC decisions. I've had a number of flights that I've pressed on with under conditions I would have avoided previously due to higher potential to landout. Once I have a safe arrival altitude over the next bail out site, I go for it knowing my motor will most likely start and get me home if things don't pan out. I find a 2-300km OLC day in my previous glider becomes 4-500km in my MG because I'm comfortable going further from the field to where the lift is best. Yes, there is a glide performance difference helping too. But knowing I'm much more likely to make it home is definitely affecting my decisions.

I'm not sure how I feel about the 'XC confidence advantage'. On one hand, I'm soaring and achieving the distance results without use of the motor. I've worked my butt off to get these longer flights and under pretty marginable conditions. On the other hand, knowing I'm getting home certainly relieves a lot of the stress I used to experience when pushing it - which is a big performance factor for me. I suspect that top pilots have an ability to compartmentalize and deal with potential landout stress better than me (in addition to their superior flying/decision skills). Maybe one way to look at it is to say that a MG helps level the field when it comes to XC confidence between a battle-hardened vet and a relative novice like me.

Eric Greenwell's excellent guide covers these points and a lot more very well and I highly recommend the read. I think I have the right disposition to own and maintain a MG responsibly. For sure I am going to wring out every XC mile I can from mine.

JJ

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Can you believe that Dan, my friend is trolling OBTP! Being one of Miami's finest that is what we do when we fish, TROLL, sometimes we catch and sometimes we don't.
Now about yesterday, I was watching the OGN network after a hard day of working in the mango grove and I did see Dan trolling along in that motorglider and enjoying the afternoon in the cool skies above Moriarity, then I looked west and noticed Jim Lee and Gordon Boettger tearing up the skies above the western skies of Minden. I said to myself these guys are all flying Motorgliders and that in and of itself is cheating. Now there is JJ saying that his scores have increased since he went to the dark side, why should they not get better, you have a SYAG, and we would expect those scores to get better, if they don't go buy some Bud Light and head to San Francisco. As for me, I will for the near future continue to fly my "Lowly 27" as Jim Lee described, but I have something up my sleeve. Old Bob, The Purist

[Dan Marotta]

Hahahahaaaaa... Got'cha, Bob!

It was a slow RAS day and you hadn't stirred the pot in a long time so I
thought I'd give you a nudge.

But seriously, right now there are no week day tows at Moriarty without
making special requests, slaying a chicken, etc., so it's only us damned
motorglider guys who are getting airborne.

Dan
5J

[jfitch]

What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve. Provided you were flying with an airport or known good field within easy glide, this has nothing to do with safety, merely inconvenience. The motorglider has relieved you of Retrieve Anxiety without compromising (or enhancing) safety. You are now free to fly the day as the day was meant to be flown.

Retrieve Anxiety is an irrational fear, since a chase crew can be hired for less than the cost of a motorglider and also relieves Retrieve Anxiety. It is common to humans though, to disregard sunk capital costs when compared with ongoing operating costs. It is why people will justify buying a very expensive new car on the basis that it gets better gas mileage - even though simple calculations will prove that the capital cost will never be recovered in reduced operating costs.

So Old Bob and the SG pilots are actually economically smarter than the SYFIR pilots, they just don't have as much fun, or fly as far.

[John Johnson]

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

> What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...

Yes - I agree.

I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But the reduced stress now seems quite palatable.

It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change when something breaks :-)

JJ

[Jason Leonard]

John what did you get? A reliable mg sounds like snake oil too me lol

[Whitney Van Brink]

While operations are transitioning to Merlin Aviation at Moriarty and yes our Pawnee is having some work done, we have made arrangements to have tows available 7 days a week. I do suggest that you give us a call or email in advance to confirm but again tows are available at Moriarty seven days a week.

Whitney Van Brink
Merlin Aviation Inc
(505)226-5556

[jfitch]

This is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.

[Dan Marotta]

Great news, Whitney!

I don't need tows (Damned Motorglider) but I'm sure a lot of people will
be glad to hear that.

Now if these damned winds would let up a bit. Yesterday the wind was
240/30G43.

Dan
5J

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Fitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The Purist

[jfitch]

Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.

[John Johnson]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 8:00:37 PM UTC-7, Jason Leonard wrote:
John what did you get? A reliable mg sounds like snake oil too me lol

I bought an ASH 31 Mi from a local pilot who decided to go the other direction and is now flying a LS8. Aside from the performance, I really value having a MG glider with great domestic support via Rex and company at Williams.
JJ

[Eric Greenwell]

On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

It's been a loooong time since you flew contest, if you ever have. I think it was George Moffat that said: "Contests are not won on the strong days; they are lost on the weak days". An 18 M self-launcher will be 170+ lbs heavier than a towed 18M, so it's at a disadvantage on weak days. A striking illustration of this was the 15M class at the most recent World's, where the Diana, the lowest minimum wing loading glider entered, took 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

[Eric Greenwell]

And Schleicher owners have an great user newsgroup, complemented by the "tech site", a website with 130+ pages of maintenance information accumulated over 28 years of Wankel powered glider operation. If you have a problem, it's probably addressed on the tech site; if not, a query to the newsgroup generally gets the answer.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist

[jfitch]

Weight works to your advantage until it doesn't. Then it puts you in a field. Not such a problem in OLC, but can be a big problem in a real contest. You can't dump the engine. A single landout virtually guarantees 10 or 20 places lost in rankings the way US contests are run. I once made it home because I didn't have the engine (removed for maintenance). Myself and two other gliders circling in very weak lift at the end of the day to make it over the last ridge. With an extremely light wing loading I made it high enough for final glide the other two (towed) gliders did not and landed out. If I'd had the engine, I would have climbed worse than they did - but I still would have made it home, and they still would have landed out :).

[Jason Leonard]

"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.

One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being a double seater, I can get my CG (very easily I might add) to 85%, in many cases without the use of tail fin ballast when solo, and when another pilot rides a long I don't have to fill the tail tank to account for them. Then again, I also carry two 7lb brass bars in the tail. The DG is a beast, no arguing the weight.

Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

There is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kids fly with you in that death trap. For someone that never even did the due diligence of even starting the engine prior to purchasing shows me and others that you were completely inept about sailplanes.
I have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues out of my pocket , it would be a pleasure. I think it would be somewhat a relief not to hear you crying like a pussy. Old Bob, The Purist

[2G]

Sounds like you are checking a lot of the DSM-5 boxes, Bobby.

Tom 2G

[Jason Leonard]

OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?

Have a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low we were. I hope you are proud of how fearful you made me to always watch the tow plane. I've never been out of position. Never done anything unsafe on tow. Never.

But I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. Bending reality again? :)

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Your last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The Purist

[Jason Leonard]

Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no longer plays any role in aviation.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had more experience you would understand. Old Bob, The Purist

[Jason Leonard]

Ah! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could've done that tow. There is nothing to talk about. Totally normal."

Maybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.

Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done. So yeah, I made it 300km in the tank, after holding for 30 minutes in the area. The third (first) relight was with a friend in the back and we needed to both knock the rust off. Then we proceeded to have a fun flight after that. Isn't that what Soaring is about?

So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.

Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.

That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.

YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.

The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.

Gorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happily signed him off if hex have told me he read the manual. A Discus is nothing complicated. Of course I get that. It's like any other aircraft. But you want an endorsement for insurance: tell me you know how it works!

You *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've never towed. Help me understand. Is it controllability?? Performance? The Power lines... Good grief. I'm higher than the Grob at the end of the runway when it's just me in the glider. Adding a 55lb child changes nothing. Sounds to me like your scared. I get it. I've got a lot of respect for tow pilots, generally. There's a lot going on and it's a second to disaster at any given moment, no matter the ship being towed. The 1-26 accident proves it.

Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your money. Or your tow.

Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Hey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA, and many more things. Yet, you were the one that violated our handshake agreement and club request to stay away from that area, your own satisfaction was put ahead of the club policy. You also had to be called by the SSA CCI director so that you could correct your credentials to become a CCI instructor, please let me know if I am incorrect about that information.
Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The Purist

[Jason Leonard]

You said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.

Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.

I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP

[2G]

Handshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTP

[2G]

Hey Bobby, it was YOU that said the agreement was a "handshake" one. Are you getting confused (that's DSM-5 material, bud)?

Tom 2G

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

No Tom, not confused, yet trying to enlighten your ability to understand what an agreement is both written and verbal. I will give you a few points for a good question, but a verbal agreement is a parol contract. OBTP

[2G]

Hey Bobby, here are your EXACT WORDS:

"ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement"

There is NO SUCH THING as a "handshake agreement" with the FAA. You are CLEARLY confused, hence checking the DSM-5 box.

Tom 2G

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Thomas, try something else, you have no idea as to what you are talking about. OBTP

[2G]

Having negotiated LOAs with the FAA, yes I do. It is YOU, Bobby, that doesn't know what he is talking about. And, when you think a millisecond about it (yes, I know you don't think much), it makes sense: the FAA is made up of thousands of people, you can't have a verbal agreement that only one of them is aware of. That is why when you get verbal advice from an FAA person on the phone it is not legally binding - you have to get a written confirmation from Omaha.

Tom 2G

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Terrible Tommy, you are clueless!!!

[2G]

So says the CLUELESS!!!! You don't have anything to say because WHAT can you say??????