Foka 5 Glue problems

[Dave Donald]

Does anyone know the facts about the Foka 5 and it's glue problems. Here in
Australia there is an enormous Airworthiness directive to be complied with
at every Form 2 (yearly inspection) and a report to be written when it is
completed.

I believe that all Foka 5's were grounded in New Zealand.

Thanks,

Dave

[hamst...@my-deja.com]

In article <XR8M3.2019$_4.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,

Here's a web page where you can learn more than you ever really wanted
to know about glues for wooden aircraft, and the seemingly silly
downunder prejudice against urea-formaldehyde glues:

http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Glues/Glues.html

That's on the fine Sequoia Aircraft web site of Alfred Scott.

hammy

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[Ian Johnston]

There was a major scare about gluing in Pirats in the UK shortly before I
bought mine. As I recall it, the ones affected were those built by WSK
Swidnik, but the PZL Bielska ones were fine.

Doubts, I think, about how well they had been glued in the first place.

Ian

[Janusz Kesik]

The "Foka" gliders weren't produced in Swidnik. "Foka" and "Cobra" were
produced in Bielsko-Biala, Wroclaw and Jezow Sudecki (before 1945r. -
Grunau).

In Poland we haven't any problems with gluing of Pirats manufactured in both
places either in Swidnik, and in Bielsko-Biala. There's only one
restriction - ALL gliders which are older than 25 years have to pass more
frequent overhauls (every 2 years or 300 hours, except "Mucha 100" and
"Mucha Standard" - 1 year or 200h). More frequent "Mucha" overhaul is caused
by glue used to manufactue them.

Janusz Kesik
Poland
lan...@polbox.com

Ian Johnston napisał(a) w wiadomości: <7tvkah$rtr$4...@news.ox.ac.uk>...

[Nolaminar]

Is it true that there are no Foka 5s in NZ?

[Bo Brunsgaard]

In article <7tvkah$rtr$4...@news.ox.ac.uk>,

engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) wrote:
> There was a major scare about gluing in Pirats in the UK shortly
before I
> bought mine. As I recall it, the ones affected were those built by WSK
> Swidnik, but the PZL Bielska ones were fine.
>
> Doubts, I think, about how well they had been glued in the first
place.

I believe that the scare started here in Denmark, when a Pirat
belonging to the Aarhus Gliding Club crashed. Basically the wings just
gave in during a pull-up at around 600 meters, which was reported to
have been well within flight limitations. The pilot managed to save
himself with his parachute. The crash was widely reported, as the
wreckage of the glider came down in a residential area.

On examination of the wreckage, it was found that the wings had not
been properly glued. As I recall, examination of another Pirat showed
similar problems. It was rumoured that the poorly glued wings could be
traced either to a specific factory or a specific range of buildno's.

The last part is hear-say, but I'm pretty sure that Claus J. of Aarhus
GC is reading this, and perhaps can fill in the blanks. Claus?

Bo Brunsgaard
Std. Libelle OY-XKB

[Lars Peder Hansen]

Well, I was there when a second Pirat in the Billund Soaring Club was examined after the
Aarhus crash. The center wing was simply not glued properly, in most places you could
enter a .4 mm probe where there should have been solid glue. The glue used was OK, but the
wooden parts simply did not connect. The (few) places where the parts actually reached
each other, the glue was in fine shape. (And I had flown many hours and Km. in that Pirat
-Shudder..)
I was told that this applied to a certain range of Serial No's, which were assembled at a
certain factory.
The glider was eventually sold to a German club that had it re-glued at a (the?) factory
in Poland, and to my knowledge it is flying in Germany today.
Maybe the same story goes for the Foka?

Happy Soaring,
Lars Peder

Bo Brunsgaard wrote:

> > There was a major scare about gluing in Pirats in the UK shortly
> before I bought mine. As I recall it, the ones affected were those built by WSK
> > Swidnik, but the PZL Bielska ones were fine.
> >
> > Doubts, I think, about how well they had been glued in the first
> place.
>
> I believe that the scare started here in Denmark, when a Pirat
> belonging to the Aarhus Gliding Club crashed. Basically the wings just
> gave in during a pull-up at around 600 meters, which was reported to
> have been well within flight limitations. The pilot managed to save
> himself with his parachute. The crash was widely reported, as the
> wreckage of the glider came down in a residential area.
>
> On examination of the wreckage, it was found that the wings had not
> been properly glued. As I recall, examination of another Pirat showed
> similar problems. It was rumoured that the poorly glued wings could be
> traced either to a specific factory or a specific range of buildno's.
>
> The last part is hear-say, but I'm pretty sure that Claus J. of Aarhus
> GC is reading this, and perhaps can fill in the blanks. Claus?
>
> Bo Brunsgaard
> Std. Libelle OY-XKB
>

--
_________________________________________________________________________

Lars Peder Hansen

Denmark branch of The Global Village.
mailto:l...@post1.tele.dk
Phone, Work:(+45) 87310700 Home:(+45) 86523988 Mobile:(+45) 40350870

_________________________________________ I'd rather be soaring... __________

"The purpose of time is to keep everything from happening at once.
It's not working."

[Stephen Kittel]

To add another account (and relying entirely on memory from the early
eighties).

I believe a similar thing happened in Australia. In the late seventies a
Foka was involved in a mid air at a competition ( I think the pilot
escaped). The remains of the aircraft fell onto the aerodrome from which the
competition was being held. Note, this collision and the breakup of the
aircraft was witnessed by a fairly large number of people, from the ground
and in the air (In the distant past I have discussed this with at least one
pilot who saw it from the ground). The amount of damage that the aircraft
sustained was considered to be far in excess of what was expected from a
collision and subsequent impact with the ground. I was lead to believe it
disintegrated into tiny pieces! The investigation of the wreckage was, I
think, one of the key triggers for the AD on the Foka. I was always under
the impression it was poor quality gluing but from the two examples below I
would not discount poor part fitting.
This AD was a hot topic at a CofA course I attended in 1983(?) as it was
run by Mike Burns (who I expect was involved in the accident investigation
and issue of the AD) and another course attendee who owned a Foka at the
time.

Regards
Stephen Kittel
Port Augusta Gliding Club

Lars Peder Hansen wrote in message <380582D8...@post1.tele.dk>...

[Janusz Kesik]

Oops...

All thet You've written is quite disappointing for me. All my aerobatic solo
flights (about 100) were done in 25 years old Pirat, and I've entered all
basic figures (loop, spin, runverse, spiral, combat turn) with speeds almost
always exceeding 200 km/h... 8-(. If I add that final glides when there was
too high approach, were at 180-220 km/h with pull-up at up to 100m, I feel
light shudder of my hands. It's good to know about it...and be still alive.

But these things are totally normal practice in our clubs, and I haven't
heard about any Pirat lost in this way and almost half of our gliders are
Pirats.

Last year, young student pilot (about 75 hours in air), during the silver
badge flight after arriving destination point (Lublin - Radawiec airfield)
continued his flight over that place. There was strong thermal conditions
with fast developing Cu's with cloud base at about 2000m. After 2-2,5 hours
of flight over mentioned airfield he found himself just below the base of
Cumulonimbus cloud and the glider started to be "vacuumed" inside. When he
found what's going on he opened full spoilers, increased speed to about
180-200 km/h. Suddenly turbulence, turned glider into a upside down
position, then he - very frightened with situation tried to turn glider back
into normal position not by doing half-barrell, but by doing half-loop into
ground. When he started diving to the ground the speed started to increase
quite fast, and when with nose straight to ground he felt first symptoms of
wings flatter. After few second wings changed into thousands of matches, and
the fuselage started to fly free. He wasn't waiting for death and instantly
escaped from a glider, and succesfully rescued with parachute. I should add
that in Pirat it may be quite difficult :-( so he can tell that he was quite
lucky.

That was only one Pirat's lose connected with disruption of wing I know
during my pilot's career (6 years).
About Foka, I think that it may be connected with type of glue used for
gluing of Fokas. You should remember that Fokas weren't built in Swidnik,
but in Bielsko-Biala, and other SZD branches. Only some Pirats (and now
PW-5) came from Swidnik. Maybe it is caused that Swidnik factory was used to
produce powered aircrafts, and materials used for producing them, and
technology was quite different from gluing wooden gliders (lack of
experience). I'm not scared about PW-5 quality because Swidnik was producing
Mi-2 helicopters (incliding full rotors), and glass technology they have "in
one small finger" as we say in Poland.
Returning to gluing wood - I think that there shouldn't be any problems with
Pirats which have been produced by Bielsko-Biala factory, and other SZD
branches (Swidnik was completely independent from SZD).

If You have any experiences (good or bad too) with Polish glider quality
(especially about Bocian, Pirat, Foka, Cobra, Junior(extremly interested),
Puchacz and Jantar Standard), please send me an e-mail to private adress
lan...@polbox.com I'm quite interested in it, and it may be good way to
know what I should add to my checklist before next flight. If I'll may
help - it will be pleasure when I can do it.

Thank You, sorry for long letter and,

Keep flying

Janusz Kesik
Poland
lan...@polbox.com

P.S. I'll be very thankful if You'll write something about prices of used
SZD 51-1 "Junior" in Europe.

Lars Peder Hansen napisał(a) w wiadomości:

[Christopher H Thorpe]

Actually, the accident to which you refer happened in January 1983 at Leeton
(refer AG April 1983 pages 22 and 24). Two of my fellow club members were
on site at the time, one of whom owned a Foka 5 (and still does).
Inspection of the debris indicated the glue let go after the impact and the
aircraft floated to earth in kit form.

Christopher Thorpe
http://users.netconnect.com.au/~pbuskens

Stephen Kittel <kit...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
news:KHkN3.8865$D33....@ozemail.com.au...

> Lars Peder Hansen wrote in message <380582D8...@post1.tele.dk>...

> >Well, I was there when a second Pirat in the Billund Soaring Club was
> examined after the
> >Aarhus crash. The center wing was simply not glued properly, in most
places
> you could
> >enter a .4 mm probe where there should have been solid glue. The glue
used
> was OK, but the
> >wooden parts simply did not connect. The (few) places where the parts
> actually reached
> >each other, the glue was in fine shape. (And I had flown many hours and
Km.
> in that Pirat
> >-Shudder..)
> >I was told that this applied to a certain range of Serial No's, which
were
> assembled at a
> >certain factory.
> >The glider was eventually sold to a German club that had it re-glued at a
> (the?) factory
> >in Poland, and to my knowledge it is flying in Germany today.
> >Maybe the same story goes for the Foka?
> >
> >Happy Soaring,
> >Lars Peder
> >
> >

[John M. Morgan]

<snip>

and the
> aircraft floated to earth in kit form.
>
> Christopher Thorpe

Notwithstanding the tragedy of the accident, what a great line!! (smile)

--
John "Bumper" Morgan <bump...@castles.com> S10-VT "ZZ"
To REPLY please remove aviation part of address.
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."