Eurofox 915 towing capability

[david.s....@gmail.com]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/116710315026587/posts/5130213577009544/

Google found this on Facebook. The post is a year old. Full text follows.

Re-posting with corrected subject line.

Cheers,
...david

Another day demonstrating the 915 Tug, this time at North Hill. Towing was up hill with light cross or tailwind, DG505 was largest available to tow. Club Pawnee achieved 600 ft min max, Eurofox with 2 in the tug achieved between 700 and 900 ft min.
Ground run same with both tugs.
A couple of single seaters towed at 1200 ft min.
Eurofox 915 did 10 tows to an average of 1400 feet due to cloud base, most with 2 in tug, 19.1 litres used
Video shows 268hp Pawnee and 915 Eurofox, towing on the same day, same glider, same pilots. Eurofox up and away quicker and higher at the end of the runway

[krasw]

When you count the ground roll in seconds, DG is flying sooner behind Pawnee, but certainly impressive with 140 hp.

[son_of_flubber]

https://eurofoxaviation.co.uk/eurofox-glider-tug-141-hp

[Dan Marotta]

That is some really good stuff! Too bad we can't use them for towing in
the US. At least, not yet...

Dan
5J

On 1/26/23 07:27, son_of_flubber wrote:
> https://eurofoxaviation.co.uk/eurofox-glider-tug-141-hp
>

[2G]

PottyMouth is strangely silent about this video proof!

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

DSM-5, not at all impressed with the video, I did see areas of concern, since you do not tow I doubt that you would recognize the marginal performance portions of the video. Usually when people do these types of video's they make sure that the conditions are perfect to give the desired results. Not having that option changes the game significantly. My observation is that when a motorglider guy sees a motorglider do a tow they think it is the best thing since sliced bread, just another huzzah for the motorglider.
I would like to compare that motorglider to the trusted old Pawnee after 5 years of doing 1300 tows a year, what you non-towing guys seem not to realize is that there is no substitute for power. In the mean time I will anxiously awaiting to see a Phoenix towing at a contest event. Old Bob, The Purist and Tow Pilot

[david.s....@gmail.com]

Bob,

You are certainly right. The Eurofox is not as capable as a Pawnee, but it is very good, and it might be a financial savior for a struggling club. To the extent that we think that high costs are a contributor to the decline of soaring in the US, we should be advocating for the approvals needed to tow with LSA, even if our own clubs have no such need or interest.

Note that the Eurofox is not a motor glider, and the conditions in that video were NOT ideal. The text says uphill with a light tailwind and a second pilot in the tow plane. I'm not a power pilot, but I am willing to believe that when the tug sheds 800 lbs the power requirements go down, too.

Cheers,
...david

[Ian Lane]

I have been a tug pilot since 1986 (and glider pilot since 1977) and have towed with Pawnees,
Bellanca Scout, 180 and 150 Cubs, 180 Chipmunks and a few other types, including the 912 and 914 Eurofoxes. I have also towed at lots of competitions, and so I think I'm qualified to give an opinion on the merits of different tugs. I was never a fan of the lower powered Eurofoxes but I was tugmaster at the UK Open/Std and 15m Nationals last year, operating seven tugs, one of which was a 915 Eurofox and I was mightily impressed! I watched it towing fully loaded Arcuses and JS1s, quite effortlessly, and it was easily outperforming the 'conventional tugs'. The 915 is a real game changer on the grounds of performance, running and maintenance costs. Much as I love the Pawnees and the like, I fear their days as tugs are numbered now that the 915 is available. I believe there is now a 2 or 3 year waiting list for them which is in itself testimony to its increasing popularity in Europe and almost everywhere else in the World!

Ian

[Dgtarmichael]

I agree that something needs to be done about the FAAs stance on towing with LSA. I bet the new Eurofox and others can do the job adequately. The problem is that we think LSA means "cheap". Their website states the Eurofox sells for 105000 pounds sterling or about 130000 dollars. You can see why motor gliders are so popular.... if only there were another way.....

Doug
W24

[Eric Greenwell]

Nobody buys an expensive Phoenix to do mass towing, so you'll never see one towing at a competition. It's bought because it's a good glider and a good airplane, and any towing is incidental to those uses. Get over it, and pay attention to real substitutes for a Pawnee, like the Eurofox in any power configuration. And stop ignoring the advantages a two seat airplane brings to many clubs, especially smaller ones that do a few hundred tows a year.

[Dan Marotta]

I was astounded at the price difference between the Rotax 100 hp
aircraft and the Rotax 141 hp aircraft. 40K GBP! That's certainly a
lot more than the price difference of the engines.

Dan
5J

[2G]

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:03:07 AM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Hey PottyMouth, you don't (not surprisingly) detail your areas of concern. It likely is the worse performance of the Pawnee than the EuroFox. Also, the EuroFox is easier to tow behind than the Pawnee and has a faster cycle time than a Pawnee at MUCH lower fuel consumption. The EuroFox could put Pawnees out of business. And, yes, a towing contest between a Pawnee and a Phoenix would be interesting, where both are given the SAME amount of fuel!

BTW, I have done hundreds of tows behind a variety of towplanes and am WELL AWARE of what constitutes a safe tow.

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Doug, there is another way and Europe has done a good job with winch operations, although the winch will never replace the towplane here in the USA, with the right geographic set up it could work well. Now about towing with the LSA, I cannot see that as a replacement for a higher powered tug like the Pawnee or 182. In my young days I made a tow with a j-3 cub 65 hp, pulling a Std. Cirrus , not pretty, buy I am still alive. There is nothing that replaces power in every stage of the tow, looks to me like one would need Usain Bolt as a wing runner with that LSA contraption.
Many people on this forum have towed behind the ,"Towpecker" and they will tell you that when I say, hold on, you better get ready to go, because that fuel guzzling beast is up and gone. The LSA would never stand the punishment that our Pawnee endures during training flights, that Pawnee will give you more safety during a possible upset, I'll take that Pawnee or 182, or 180 like I flew yesterday any day of the week. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

Our club towed with a 150 hp CItabria for about 15 years, and the wing runners just jogged a few steps. A 100 hp LSA with a climb propeller won't require 100 yard dash winners, either. No one is suggesting a Pawnee isn't the best choice for your situation, only that there are alternatives that will be better choices for other clubs with different circumstances. For our club, for example, the best Pawnee would not have been able to make as many tows as a 150 hp Cessna 150 would have made, because it became very difficult to find tail dragger pilots.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

All I can say is today the Towpecker made its presence known. Yep a great guy showed up today at TCSC from the cold winter months of NH, don't blame him for coming back to Vero, the Wx is much better here. He assembled his JS3 and asked if I would give him a tow so that he could get the cobwebs off the beautiful motorglider.
As we staged at the start line I came on the radio and told him that he did not have Usain Bolt as a wing runner so just hold on and I will yank you right out of here. yes that gas guzzling 540 plus came to life and off we went. I yanked his ass like we were starting off a drag racing line, and as we approached the end of the tow his reply was, "Thanks For The Towpecker"! OBTP, No LSA In My Plans!

[Eric Greenwell]

A motorglider with a steerable tail wheel makes an unassisted towed takeoff a delight: you can keep the glider going in exactly the direction you wish, even with with a low powered tug and no wind; in fact, you can do that even WITH a tail wind!. If all gliders had steerable tail wheels, all the wing runners could retire, or do something more productive, and there'd be fewer ground loops and damaged gliders. It's so terrific having a steerable tail wheel, I'd get one if I owned a towed glider. Of course, the steerable tail wheel is just as wonderful when self-launching ;^)

[John Foster]

That EuroFox looks an awful lot like a Kit Fox. I wonder what kind of engine a Kit Fox would need to work well as a tow plane (assuming we could get it to be legal)?

[krasw]

On Monday, 30 January 2023 at 09:00:06 UTC+2, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> That EuroFox looks an awful lot like a Kit Fox. I wonder what kind of engine a Kit Fox would need to work well as a tow plane (assuming we could get it to be legal)?

Yes it continues the old tradition of making carbon copy US planes in EU. But wait, isn't Kitfox a copy of Avid Flyer, which itself is was a 80's plane made with 30's design and materials?

Avid Flyer design is rugged enough for this kind of operation, so towing capability is mainly question of engine power. High-wings have appalling visibility for towing operations, but I guess people can live with this when there is no other option.

[Mark Mocho]

"Yes it continues the old tradition of making carbon copy US planes in EU."

Well, as many of us have known, in aviation, "R & D" actually stands for "Rip Off and Duplicate."

[waltco...@aol.com]

I used to go out to SLGP and launch gliders for the exercise and experience gained from observation. Wing runners don't just run the wing, they hook up, they check the pattern to see if the launch can be safe, they observe the glider just before take off to insure that there are no tail dollies or other accoutrements still attached. I've seen clubs from the great, frozen north come down and announce that their "club members" would do their launches, then dismiss me only to see the glider going down the runway with a tail dolly attached.

Walt Connelly

[Mike the Strike]

A colleague more experienced than I am in FAA matters suggests that the towing restriction on LS aircraft, including the Eurofox could be circumvented by registering it in the Experimental category. It probably could not be used for hire, but this might work for a club or private owner.

Mike

[AS]

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:07:50 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
> A colleague more experienced than I am in FAA matters suggests that the towing restriction on LS aircraft, including the Eurofox could be circumvented by registering it in the Experimental category. It probably could not be used for hire, but this might work for a club or private owner.
>
> Mike

So how would this 'use for hire' work out, if the glider being towed is a revenue flight, i.e. a paying guest is being flown by a commercial rated pilot? Would that be possible or prohibited?

Uli
'AS'