experimental to standard certificate
shkdriver
Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate?
I understand that some gliders were imported and flown as
experimental such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on
reciprocal airworthiness circumstance.
The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard certificates.
Just wondering
Scott W.
--
shkdriver
Peter
I looked into this recently and came up with the following, I didn't
actually try to do this as I didn't buy the glider in the end. But the
exercise was worthwhile..
First make sure that an equivalent model of the glider (make and model)
has been certified by the FAA and as a cosequence there is a Type
Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available for the type from the FAA (you
can find these online by searching for tcds at www.faa.gov).
Read the the description there and, at least for the types I was looking
at, it specifies the individual serial numbers of gliders that shoudl be
are conformant with the requirements of the TCDS, in my case it was
listed as a bunch of specific serial numbers for earlier builds and a
contiguous block for later builds of the type. As well as any mandatory
modifications that need to be carried out for the FAA Standard CofA.
One of the requirements stated in the TCDS is specific wording on the
original Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from Germany (where the
glider came from, the owner of the glider had this in his well documented
glider, not sure how you would get one of these otherwise, perhaps the
manufacturer or the LDB in the case of germany)
My stumbling block was that the FAA TCDS specified particular wording
that should be present in the Export C of A from Germany, this wasn't
present in exactly the specified words for the the particular glider I
was looking at (even though that particular glider was specifically
listed as conformant by serial number). I think this was a timing issue
in terms of which document was issued first... i never resolved whether
this might be an issue.
The final step is a rigorous inspection of the aircraft by an FAA
designated Inspector (that the FAA do for free apparently...!! ), I
forget the formal name for this inspection. But essentially it is just a
very thorough Anunual Inspection.
Once complete its a little bit of paper work and you are on the Standard
Airworthiness Category.
Let me know if you succeed, I'll be doing this sometime soon,..
Peter
lanebush
The "Import C of A (certificate of airworthiness) done by the FAA
inspector is not an annual inspection. It is an inspection to ensure
that the aircraft conforms to the Type Certificate (Type Data
Certificate). An annual inspection will have to be done by your
favorite IA. When I have imported aircraft I have hired a Designated
Airworthiness Representative to perform the C of A inspection for me.
They are not free like the FAA but they generally are more
knowledgeable and easier to work with. The worse case scenario is
being assigned a FAA inspector who knows nothing about your glider. I
have heard of aircraft being rejected for ridiculous reasons. Most of
these inspections consist of the inspector looking over the paperwork
very thoroughly and then a quick examination of the aircraft while
comparing it to the type certificate. Any modifications make it very
tough to pass the inspection.
Papa3
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ditto on the DAR. I was VERY fortunate to work with a good one in
the past. Since he had been through the drill several times, he
understood the glider world. The last thing you want is a guy who
has never seen a glider before. Many of the things we take as
routine in gliding (say inter-changeable tips) can throw a novice for
loop.
Suggest you find out from your local gliding clubs/FBOs who the "good
guys" are.
db_sonic
wrote:
I purchased a used ASW19B that had no US CofA. It was an import. As
long as you have the Original Export CofA from the manufacturer and
take it to a DAR you should have no problem. I did mine through Dave
Monti in Minden and he did the annual along with it. The FAA DAR
directory is here and you want the DAR maintenance guys.
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_types/media/dardirectory.pdf
Mike125
imported (the original owner had water bags installed). When I got it
I had it switched back to standard after removing the ballast system.
It was no big deal. The DAR inspected the glider and the only thing I
can remember that he wanted changed was the fuses needed to be
labeled. I can't even remember why I did it. Possibly lower insurance
cost and no program letter or limitations (some of which were No Night
Flight, No Passengers and No Towing Gliders).
Peter
Yup, that's the name I couldn't remember, A Conformity Inspection or some
such, its to ensure compliance with the TCDS requirements, check for
unauthorised/unapproved work or mods and to trawl paperwork in detail, I
was told that it was like having a combination of Annual and Ramp
inspection all in one nice visit. You would also need to have the
aircraft current in its normal Annual before this was done too...
probably not a bad thing to help you prep the docs for the more detailed
inspection.
Peter
Todd
this document (a bit old) that may help you. This one is canceled,
but it may help lead you to the current procedure.
The document: 8130.15 dated 09/14/1979
RE: Airworthiness Certification of "Prematurely" Exported Gliders
You might also try a google search like:
convert type certificate experimental site:faa.gov
BT
BT
uncl...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
The question I would ask is why?
'19 is old enough that it would almost certainly have a permanent
Experimental C of A. Thus no need for program letters and such.
Condition inspection by A&P, IA not required.
I would be astonished if it would add any value.
Only reason I can think of might be a life insurance policy that says
- no experimental aircraft.
FWIW
UH
Peter
Thats an excellent find, the document deals with exactly the circumstance
that I anticipated having problems with, thank you for posting, and I'm
sure many others out there will gain confidence in being able to put a
glider through a similar procedure now that an official FAA document
details a route through the process... updating it is the next
challenge :-)
Many thanks,
Peter
Peter
I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not possible
to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the USA), for
an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA will only issue
them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.
So, in my case, if I ever decided to take a glider back to England, I'd
have to go through this process before I could think about shipping it.
Peter
Peter
Having taken a look through the FAA website I think form 8130.2F mod4,
which is current, has the appropriate language and procedures in it...
around page 56-63, and seems to make this transition possible even if the
TCDS was issued after the glider was imported and is not referred to on
the original Export CofA.
Peter
Andy
> I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not possible
> to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the USA), for
> an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA will only issue
> them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.
That seems strange. The glider entered USA without any US
airworthiness certification but it cannot leave?
Is it not possible, for example, to send a German manufactured glider
with a US experimental certificate, back to Germany for repairs?
Is this a US export restriction, or a UK import restriction?
Can the glider just be de-registered in US and re-registered or re-
certified in UK based on the original LBA certification?
I'm interested since I may find myself in the same situation one day.
Andy
Uncle Fuzzy
Thank you! I've been DYING to ask that very question. I'm a relative
noob in the arena of glider ownership. I've owned an experimental
since 2004, and can't for the life of me see any advantage to having a
type certificate.
uncl...@ix.netcom.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
The only potential advantage may be avoiding an FAA inspector deciding
he has to do a check on your Ex glider every year which sounds like it
could be coming in some areas.
The tone I get from our local "helpers" is that they feel they need to
provide significant supervision of how aircraft licensed in this
catagory are used. They don't seem to be able to disciminate between a
glider flying at a local airport and a MIG flying at an airshow.
That said, if maintenance and records are done right, there should be
no issue other than making ship available for inspection.
Looks like a way for inspectors to get out of the office and appear to
be doing something.
UH
Peter
> On Jan 14, 12:48 am, Peter <peter.a.wil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not
>> possible to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the
>> USA), for an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA
>> will only issue them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.
>
>
> That seems strange. The glider entered USA without any US airworthiness
> certification but it cannot leave?
No, you have the wrong end of the stick.
The glider entered the USA with a German Certificate of Airworthiness for
Export, this was supplied by the manufacturer as part of its export
process (without which I doubt it would even get on the US experimental
register) and was subsequently registered in the USA with an experimental
Airworthiness (since at the time of import there was no TCDS and no way
to get onto the Standard register.
>
> Is it not possible, for example, to send a German manufactured glider
> with a US experimental certificate, back to Germany for repairs?
Of course, its possible to ship it to Germany or most other places for
repair/holidays/any number of reasons, but it cannot be PERMANENTLY
exported with an FAA Certificate of Airworthiness or Export unless it is
transitioned from an FAA Standard Category Airworthiness Certificate.
You might be able to keep it on the US register in the other country and
have a US qualified Inspector give it the required annuals etc, but thats
likely to be costly and insurance may be a problem, but most countries
are likely to require a long term aircraft transition to the local
register eventually.
>
> Is this a US export restriction, or a UK import restriction?
Both I believe.
US export, the FAA will only grant the Export CofA if they can be assured
the aircraft is 'safe' when it leaves the USA, ie. has a current Standard
Category CofA at the time export is applied for.
UK import, the aircraft must be documented properly in order for it to be
accepted onto the EASA Airworthiness Register, proper docs include export
CofA from the country its coming from, for similar reasons, it must be
'safe' which means Export CofA.
>
> Can the glider just be de-registered in US and re-registered or re-
> certified in UK based on the original LBA certification?
I doubt it, there would be a huge paperwork gap that would raise
questions. Even if it could be done, I doubt I'd buy even a used car with
such a document gap.
>
> I'm interested since I may find myself in the same situation one day.
>
> Andy
Good luck with that, I have learned a lot in my research so far and no
doubt have more to learn...
Peter
Greg Arnold
>
> Of course, its possible to ship it to Germany or most other places for
> repair/holidays/any number of reasons, but it cannot be PERMANENTLY
> exported with an FAA Certificate of Airworthiness or Export unless it is
> transitioned from an FAA Standard Category Airworthiness Certificate.
> You might be able to keep it on the US register in the other country and
> have a US qualified Inspector give it the required annuals etc, but thats
> likely to be costly and insurance may be a problem, but most countries
> are likely to require a long term aircraft transition to the local
> register eventually.
>
>> Is this a US export restriction, or a UK import restriction?
>
> Both I believe.
> US export, the FAA will only grant the Export CofA if they can be assured
> the aircraft is 'safe' when it leaves the USA, ie. has a current Standard
> Category CofA at the time export is applied for.
> UK import, the aircraft must be documented properly in order for it to be
> accepted onto the EASA Airworthiness Register, proper docs include export
> CofA from the country its coming from, for similar reasons, it must be
> 'safe' which means Export CofA.
>
>> Can the glider just be dase-registered in US and re-registered or re-
>> certified in UK based on the original LBA certification?
>
> I doubt it, there would be a huge paperwork gap that would raise
> questions. Even if it could be done, I doubt I'd buy even a used car with
> such a document gap.
>
>> I'm interested since I may find myself in the same situation one day.
>>
>> Andy
>
> Good luck with that, I have learned a lot in my research so far and no
> doubt have more to learn...
>
> Peter
I am pretty sure this is not true if you export to New Zealand. I
exported an experimental LS-3 to NZ a few years ago, it now is flying in
NZ, and there was no Export C of A.
Therefore, a "document gap" is possible, at least in NZ.
Andy
> I am pretty sure this is not true if you export to New Zealand. I
> exported an experimental LS-3 to NZ a few years ago, it now is flying in
> NZ, and there was no Export C of A.
>
> Therefore, a "document gap" is possible, at least in NZ.
I found that FAA provides the aircraft import requirements for various
states. UK is lumped in with other EU counties in this doc:
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/export_aw_proc/sp_req_import/media/EU.pdf
My take from this is that for export to UK the documentation
requirements are driven by EASA not FAA.
Does anyone know of a German built glider with US experimental
certificate being imported from US to UK and being got though all the
paperwork to get a UK registration under the current EASA rules?
requirements for importing to other countries can be found here
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/export_aw_proc/sp_req_import/
It seems that NZ also requires an export airworthiness certification
but it does not state explicitly that it must be issued by US. Is it
possible that the original LBA export certificate is acceptable?
Exporting US registered gliders has been common at times when the
dollar is weak. Has this stopped happening because the export/import
regs cannot be met?
Andy
Frank Whiteley
> On Jan 16, 8:50 am, Greg Arnold <Soa...@cox.netREMOVE> wrote:
>
> > I am pretty sure this is not true if you export to New Zealand. I
> > exported an experimental LS-3 to NZ a few years ago, it now is flying in
> > NZ, and there was no Export C of A.
>
> > Therefore, a "document gap" is possible, at least in NZ.
>
> I found that FAA provides the aircraft import requirements for various
> states. UK is lumped in with other EU counties in this doc:
>
>
> My take from this is that for export to UK the documentation
> requirements are driven by EASA not FAA.
>
> Does anyone know of a German built glider with US experimental
> certificate being imported from US to UK and being got though all the
> paperwork to get a UK registration under the current EASA rules?
>
> requirements for importing to other countries can be found here
>
>
> It seems that NZ also requires an export airworthiness certification
> but it does not state explicitly that it must be issued by US. Is it
> possible that the original LBA export certificate is acceptable?
>
> Exporting US registered gliders has been common at times when the
> dollar is weak. Has this stopped happening because the export/import
> regs cannot be met?
>
> Andy
AFAIK, the only Export C of A we are concerned with in the US is the
original from the country of manufacture when there is a TCDS and a
standard airworthiness.
On Jan 16, 1:21 am, Peter <peter.a.wil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:55:41 -0800, Andy wrote:
> > On Jan 14, 12:48 am, Peter <peter.a.wil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not
> >> possible to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the
> >> USA), for an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA
> >> will only issue them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.
>
> > That seems strange. The glider entered USA without any US airworthiness
> > certification but it cannot leave?
>
> No, you have the wrong end of the stick.
>
> The glider entered the USA with a German Certificate of Airworthiness for
> Export, this was supplied by the manufacturer as part of its export
> process (without which I doubt it would even get on the US experimental
> register) and was subsequently registered in the USA with an experimental
> Airworthiness (since at the time of import there was no TCDS and no way
> to get onto the Standard register.
>
Export C of A is not required if a glider is initially registered as
experimental in the US. There are gliders that are certificated in
some countries, but not in the US, LAK-12 for example. For a standard
certificate and export C of A or compliance letter from the country of
manufacture is required. So it follows that exporting a US registered
experimental is not eligible for an export C of A. That said, the
original export C of A should satisfy the requirement, it does for US
export if complete logbooks are included. A quick perusal of 14CFR21
seems to indicate that export CofA's and tags on components only apply
to US production. Can you cite a reference that says an export C of A
would be issued on foreign manufacture?
For example, a couple of years ago I picked up an L-13 from Canada for
a friend. I looked over the logbooks. The glider had been originally
imported into the US and the Czech export C of A was included. The
glider logged about 75 hours in the US and was exported to Canada.
There was no evidence of a US export C of A. The glider was grounded
at 4724.5 hours in Canada as the club was unwilling to complete
another extension inspection to extend the life by 500 hours in
Canada. The glider was re-imported to the US without a Canadian
export C of A. The bulletins limiting the service life of this type
are accepted in some countries, but are none directive in the US.
AD's were never created and examples are known to be flying with over
9,000 hours. Several include parts from three or more salvages. But
the important document in this chain was the original Czech export C
of A and complete log books, several volumes, that recorded every
flight.
When I last departed the UK, I looked at bringing an IS28-B2 with me.
British Aerospace once bought a half dozen for engineering training.
They were low time and in 'as new' conditon, but at the time there was
a 'shelf life', which has been reasonably dealt with. At that time,
the export C of A from Romania was required and was in the glider
records.
If a German built glider had an export C of A, but was US
experimental, the real problem would seem to be with any modifications
that weren't approved by the manufacturer, e.g. winglets. If they
were factory mods that were added in the US, then a compliance letter
from Germany might suffice, but might also require a German
inspection. When the BGA controlled UK gliding, it would be a simple
matter for the BGA Technical Committee to approve the modification.
Under EASA, no idea what that implies.
Frank Whiteley
Hagbard Celine
She was my favorite of our club ships and I hated to see her go but I
had to admit that having to go through the extension paperwork and
inspection every two years was getting to be a real pain. I hope the
owner is having some fun with it.