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Real-time Glider Tracking in the Post-glideport.aero World
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J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 7, 2022, 4:11:13 PM2/7/22
to
Soaring Friends,
Many of us in the USA have for years been using a service set up by a volunteer, glideport.aero , to view satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) traces for registered gliders, real-time, with the capability to view/compare/overlay multiple traces from numerous gliders flying in a certain area. Unfortunately this service is no longer operating, and apparently there are no plans for further support of it. The original developer has stepped down, and no individual/team/organization has stepped up to take it over, as far as I am aware.
First question, does anyone know differently about possible resurrection or future support of glideport.aero?
I want the developer and anyone who has ever worked on glideport.aero to know that many people are very appreciative of what you did, it has been very useful! Thank you!
So, what can we use instead? The ability to view tracks real time on a computer or smart phone is fun, but also SAFETY critical for many soaring operations, especially those done by small groups in remote areas. The obvious (and it appears to me, the only) option is the Open Glider Network, OGN, and its associated viewers.
Second question: Is anyone aware of any other options?
We don't have a lot of coverage here in the USA of OGN ground stations (FLARM signal receivers), but it will improve as more ground stations are brought online. But there are many places where we fly here in the USA where there will likely NEVER be decent OGN ground station coverage, too remote, mountainous, or sparsely populated. But, since OGN is open to custom inputs, at least one way to feed real-time satellite tracks into the OGN datastream has been developed, see this rec.aviation.soaring thread:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/1zYbIJe7AkY/m/b9V3v4MFAQAJ
Great work, Davis, thanks!
Third, not a question, but a request:
I would encourage everyone flying a sailplane in the USA (and elsewhere, actually) and using a satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) to register on the databases that feed this system. Soaring Society of America members, your current device may already be registered, because Davis used the SSA's Sailplane Locator Database ( https://members.ssa.org/MyHome.asp?mbr=6867486834 , you will need to log in with your SSA number) as the starting point for his databases. BUT Davis has told me he does not plan to periodically check that SSA database for new registrations, so you must directly register new or updated devices into his databases, see the thread above for how to do that. I think it also makes sense (and might be required) to register with OGN, see http://ddb.glidernet.org/
Fourth and final, another request:
I would encourage SSA members to register new satellite locator devices and/or keep their registration/locator information current and correct in the SSA Sailplane Locator Database also. This database is a great place to find the link to the actual map or "share page" of your locator device. The locator service's actual map page would probably be preferred by search and rescue personnel over an OGN viewer, if you go missing and we are trying to find you. The search and rescue people will likely be much more familiar with the satellite tracking service pages and maps.
Anyway, sorry this post is so lengthy, thanks for taking a look at this and thinking about and commenting on this important subject. The soaring season in the USA is ramping up, and we all want to be able to find each other, especially in an emergency!
Cheers,
Jim J6
PS: I will start a separate thread on OGN viewers, there are several options and the pros and cons should be explored using the collective intelligence of this newsgroup. J6
Many of us in the USA have for years been using a service set up by a volunteer, glideport.aero , to view satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) traces for registered gliders, real-time, with the capability to view/compare/overlay multiple traces from numerous gliders flying in a certain area. Unfortunately this service is no longer operating, and apparently there are no plans for further support of it. The original developer has stepped down, and no individual/team/organization has stepped up to take it over, as far as I am aware.
First question, does anyone know differently about possible resurrection or future support of glideport.aero?
I want the developer and anyone who has ever worked on glideport.aero to know that many people are very appreciative of what you did, it has been very useful! Thank you!
So, what can we use instead? The ability to view tracks real time on a computer or smart phone is fun, but also SAFETY critical for many soaring operations, especially those done by small groups in remote areas. The obvious (and it appears to me, the only) option is the Open Glider Network, OGN, and its associated viewers.
Second question: Is anyone aware of any other options?
We don't have a lot of coverage here in the USA of OGN ground stations (FLARM signal receivers), but it will improve as more ground stations are brought online. But there are many places where we fly here in the USA where there will likely NEVER be decent OGN ground station coverage, too remote, mountainous, or sparsely populated. But, since OGN is open to custom inputs, at least one way to feed real-time satellite tracks into the OGN datastream has been developed, see this rec.aviation.soaring thread:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/1zYbIJe7AkY/m/b9V3v4MFAQAJ
Great work, Davis, thanks!
Third, not a question, but a request:
I would encourage everyone flying a sailplane in the USA (and elsewhere, actually) and using a satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) to register on the databases that feed this system. Soaring Society of America members, your current device may already be registered, because Davis used the SSA's Sailplane Locator Database ( https://members.ssa.org/MyHome.asp?mbr=6867486834 , you will need to log in with your SSA number) as the starting point for his databases. BUT Davis has told me he does not plan to periodically check that SSA database for new registrations, so you must directly register new or updated devices into his databases, see the thread above for how to do that. I think it also makes sense (and might be required) to register with OGN, see http://ddb.glidernet.org/
Fourth and final, another request:
I would encourage SSA members to register new satellite locator devices and/or keep their registration/locator information current and correct in the SSA Sailplane Locator Database also. This database is a great place to find the link to the actual map or "share page" of your locator device. The locator service's actual map page would probably be preferred by search and rescue personnel over an OGN viewer, if you go missing and we are trying to find you. The search and rescue people will likely be much more familiar with the satellite tracking service pages and maps.
Anyway, sorry this post is so lengthy, thanks for taking a look at this and thinking about and commenting on this important subject. The soaring season in the USA is ramping up, and we all want to be able to find each other, especially in an emergency!
Cheers,
Jim J6
PS: I will start a separate thread on OGN viewers, there are several options and the pros and cons should be explored using the collective intelligence of this newsgroup. J6
Moshe Braner
Feb 7, 2022, 6:10:03 PM2/7/22
to
Should also mention that, for those of us without a SPOT or Inreach, the
current version of IGCdroid allows feeding real-time data into OGN via
cellphone data service, where available. Around here, cell-data
coverage is spotty. When IGCdroid fed the data to Glideport, when cell
data connection was re-established, it would fill in the data since the
last time it had such connection. That is NOT the case for the OGN data
feed, which is done via "blind" sending of UDP packets. So only parts
of the track will appear. Still better than nothing.
current version of IGCdroid allows feeding real-time data into OGN via
cellphone data service, where available. Around here, cell-data
coverage is spotty. When IGCdroid fed the data to Glideport, when cell
data connection was re-established, it would fill in the data since the
last time it had such connection. That is NOT the case for the OGN data
feed, which is done via "blind" sending of UDP packets. So only parts
of the track will appear. Still better than nothing.
jfitch
Feb 7, 2022, 7:10:24 PM2/7/22
to
I'm having a hard time, a VERY hard time, understanding why the SSA isn't stepping up and taking on the existing glideport.aero facility. What do we need to do to make this happen? A letter writing campaign? Presumably 99% of the work has been done, it worked well, did what people wanted, was pretty reliable. It needs an additional 1% to make it work again, and maybe 1% a year to maintain it. Is there some reason to want to reinvent the wheel? Who do I call or write letters to? Does the owner of gliderport.aero not want to give it to the SSA?
Nicholas Kennedy
Feb 7, 2022, 8:31:56 PM2/7/22
to
On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 5:10:24 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> I'm having a hard time, a VERY hard time, understanding why the SSA isn't stepping up and taking on the existing glideport.aero facility. What do we need to do to make this happen? A letter writing campaign? Presumably 99% of the work has been done, it worked well, did what people wanted, was pretty reliable. It needs an additional 1% to make it work again, and maybe 1% a year to maintain it. Is there some reason to want to reinvent the wheel? Who do I call or write letters to? Does the owner of gliderport.aero not want to give it to the SSA?
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 1:11:13 PM UTC-8, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > Soaring Friends,
> >
> > Many of us in the USA have for years been using a service set up by a volunteer, glideport.aero , to view satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) traces for registered gliders, real-time, with the capability to view/compare/overlay multiple traces from numerous gliders flying in a certain area. Unfortunately this service is no longer operating, and apparently there are no plans for further support of it. The original developer has stepped down, and no individual/team/organization has stepped up to take it over, as far as I am aware.
> >
> > First question, does anyone know differently about possible resurrection or future support of glideport.aero?
> >
> > I want the developer and anyone who has ever worked on glideport.aero to know that many people are very appreciative of what you did, it has been very useful! Thank you!
> >
> > So, what can we use instead? The ability to view tracks real time on a computer or smart phone is fun, but also SAFETY critical for many soaring operations, especially those done by small groups in remote areas. The obvious (and it appears to me, the only) option is the Open Glider Network, OGN, and its associated viewers.
> >
> > Second question: Is anyone aware of any other options?
> >
> > We don't have a lot of coverage here in the USA of OGN ground stations (FLARM signal receivers), but it will improve as more ground stations are brought online. But there are many places where we fly here in the USA where there will likely NEVER be decent OGN ground station coverage, too remote, mountainous, or sparsely populated. But, since OGN is open to custom inputs, at least one way to feed real-time satellite tracks into the OGN datastream has been developed, see this rec.aviation.soaring thread:
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/1zYbIJe7AkY/m/b9V3v4MFAQAJ
> >
> > Great work, Davis, thanks!
> >
> > Third, not a question, but a request:
> >
> > I would encourage everyone flying a sailplane in the USA (and elsewhere, actually) and using a satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) to register on the databases that feed this system. Soaring Society of America members, your current device may already be registered, because Davis used the SSA's Sailplane Locator Database ( https://members.ssa.org/MyHome.asp?mbr=6867486834 , you will need to log in with your SSA number) as the starting point for his databases. BUT Davis has told me he does not plan to periodically check that SSA database for new registrations, so you must directly register new or updated devices into his databases, see the thread above for how to
I'm with JFitch on the need to pressure the SSA regional directors to band together and use SSA funds to upgrade and keep GLIDEPORT functional.
> I'm having a hard time, a VERY hard time, understanding why the SSA isn't stepping up and taking on the existing glideport.aero facility. What do we need to do to make this happen? A letter writing campaign? Presumably 99% of the work has been done, it worked well, did what people wanted, was pretty reliable. It needs an additional 1% to make it work again, and maybe 1% a year to maintain it. Is there some reason to want to reinvent the wheel? Who do I call or write letters to? Does the owner of gliderport.aero not want to give it to the SSA?
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 1:11:13 PM UTC-8, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > Soaring Friends,
> >
> > Many of us in the USA have for years been using a service set up by a volunteer, glideport.aero , to view satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) traces for registered gliders, real-time, with the capability to view/compare/overlay multiple traces from numerous gliders flying in a certain area. Unfortunately this service is no longer operating, and apparently there are no plans for further support of it. The original developer has stepped down, and no individual/team/organization has stepped up to take it over, as far as I am aware.
> >
> > First question, does anyone know differently about possible resurrection or future support of glideport.aero?
> >
> > I want the developer and anyone who has ever worked on glideport.aero to know that many people are very appreciative of what you did, it has been very useful! Thank you!
> >
> > So, what can we use instead? The ability to view tracks real time on a computer or smart phone is fun, but also SAFETY critical for many soaring operations, especially those done by small groups in remote areas. The obvious (and it appears to me, the only) option is the Open Glider Network, OGN, and its associated viewers.
> >
> > Second question: Is anyone aware of any other options?
> >
> > We don't have a lot of coverage here in the USA of OGN ground stations (FLARM signal receivers), but it will improve as more ground stations are brought online. But there are many places where we fly here in the USA where there will likely NEVER be decent OGN ground station coverage, too remote, mountainous, or sparsely populated. But, since OGN is open to custom inputs, at least one way to feed real-time satellite tracks into the OGN datastream has been developed, see this rec.aviation.soaring thread:
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/1zYbIJe7AkY/m/b9V3v4MFAQAJ
> >
> > Great work, Davis, thanks!
> >
> > Third, not a question, but a request:
> >
> > I would encourage everyone flying a sailplane in the USA (and elsewhere, actually) and using a satellite locator device (Spot, InReach) to register on the databases that feed this system. Soaring Society of America members, your current device may already be registered, because Davis used the SSA's Sailplane Locator Database ( https://members.ssa.org/MyHome.asp?mbr=6867486834 , you will need to log in with your SSA number) as the starting point for his databases. BUT Davis has told me he does not plan to periodically check that SSA database for new registrations, so you must directly register new or updated devices into his databases, see the thread above for how to
This is a important benefit to SSA members, and I think we have several tech savvy individuals who should be paid to get this up and running and maintained. It worked great in the past and is important to alot of XC pilot, and even local pilots, its one of the few benefits I feel I get for my SSA dues.
At the end of the day when pilots come up missing it changes a wild goose chase into something concrete , lets get this service back in action, please.
Nick
T
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 7, 2022, 9:13:09 PM2/7/22
to
I am with you, Jon and Nick. Everyone interested in this capability should be in contact with their Director to promote SSA support, very good suggestion. I and others from my Region have been involved in an online discussion recently with our Director, and one other Director I am aware of has been involved in other discussions, on the need for a robust tracking service. Those two Directors have stated their intention to have real time tracking service support from the SSA discussed at the next Board meeting.
But I am not waiting, I am getting my tracking method figured out and checked out for this coming season. So, at a minimum, OGN can be a backstop in case there are delays in (or failure to) restoring and continuing glideport.aero.
Overall, I would say OGN is too good of an idea not to grow in the USA and elsewhere, so I think it can and will be a redundant tracking method at least, never know when one system might go down..... OGN could be particularly useful, I think, on a more local sense at many glider sites where FLARM might be more common than satellite locators. At a flatland glider site, for example, a club could put up one or just a few OGN stations (for about the cost of one satellite locator each station) and have a great tool for tracking their (FLARM-equipped....) local glider fleet. I flew a week or so at Moriarty a few years ago, they had OGN receivers (multi-unit grid, I think) set up and a large-screen display in the airport building there, and it was a good situational awareness tool that essentially ran full time autonomously. Fun for the crews/spouses/etc. to watch (and comment on, haha) also.
Great input and ideas, this is what this newsgroup does best.
Cheers,
Jim J6
But I am not waiting, I am getting my tracking method figured out and checked out for this coming season. So, at a minimum, OGN can be a backstop in case there are delays in (or failure to) restoring and continuing glideport.aero.
Overall, I would say OGN is too good of an idea not to grow in the USA and elsewhere, so I think it can and will be a redundant tracking method at least, never know when one system might go down..... OGN could be particularly useful, I think, on a more local sense at many glider sites where FLARM might be more common than satellite locators. At a flatland glider site, for example, a club could put up one or just a few OGN stations (for about the cost of one satellite locator each station) and have a great tool for tracking their (FLARM-equipped....) local glider fleet. I flew a week or so at Moriarty a few years ago, they had OGN receivers (multi-unit grid, I think) set up and a large-screen display in the airport building there, and it was a good situational awareness tool that essentially ran full time autonomously. Fun for the crews/spouses/etc. to watch (and comment on, haha) also.
Great input and ideas, this is what this newsgroup does best.
Cheers,
Jim J6
Roger Thiemann
Feb 7, 2022, 9:15:44 PM2/7/22
to
In 2016 Glideport.aero was announced by Pedja Bogdanovich & Lane Bush at the SSA convention in Greenville, SC. I believe Lane is out of south Georgia, USA but not sure where Pedja is located. Anyone know these developers or could contact them about helping out with restoring the service?
Ramy
Feb 7, 2022, 9:47:30 PM2/7/22
to
As far as I know, Frank Whitely is the SSA contact in charge. I pinged him couple of weeks ago and he was looking into it. Will ping him again.
Ramy
Ramy
Richard Livingston
Feb 8, 2022, 11:54:50 AM2/8/22
to
For what its worth, we have ADSB-out on our glider and can track our glider in the midwest on flightaware.com real time. Not sure what ADSB coverage is like in the west, and the battery drain might be an issue for longer glider flights.
Rich L.
Rich L.
Tony
Feb 8, 2022, 1:10:07 PM2/8/22
to
On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 8:15:44 PM UTC-6, Roger Thiemann wrote:
> In 2016 Glideport.aero was announced by Pedja Bogdanovich & Lane Bush at the SSA convention in Greenville, SC. I believe Lane is out of south Georgia, USA but not sure where Pedja is located. Anyone know these developers or could contact them about helping out with restoring the service?
Might be a good use for the many recent large financial gifts the SSA has received, per this months Soaring magazine.
> In 2016 Glideport.aero was announced by Pedja Bogdanovich & Lane Bush at the SSA convention in Greenville, SC. I believe Lane is out of south Georgia, USA but not sure where Pedja is located. Anyone know these developers or could contact them about helping out with restoring the service?
jfitch
Feb 8, 2022, 1:33:05 PM2/8/22
to
I received a reply from Frank, it sounds like the SSA are willing and able to take it on but need some help from the original owners to get access. Those owners are preoccupied with other matters and so far have not responded. I hope they can be encouraged to transfer this facility soon.
Frank Whiteley
Feb 8, 2022, 4:07:31 PM2/8/22
to
More to follow as it develops.
Frank Whiteley
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 8, 2022, 4:48:12 PM2/8/22
to
This is all great news! Thank you Frank for the update.
However, the soaring season will be going strong soon, and it seems likely that we will need an alternative until glideport.aero is resurrected. So, my personal plan is to fully register with Davis' database, ensure I am still registered in the SSA Sailplane Locator database correctly, and find an OGN viewer to use as at least a temporary substitute for glideport.aero.
I would encourage others to do the same. And, I plan to keep OGN tracking active and in my "toolkit" even after glideport.aero comes back to life, I kinda like having redundancy in tracking my flying buddies.
So, points 3 and 4 in my original post still stand. Please consider getting registered up for OGN tracking also.
Cheers,
Jim J6
However, the soaring season will be going strong soon, and it seems likely that we will need an alternative until glideport.aero is resurrected. So, my personal plan is to fully register with Davis' database, ensure I am still registered in the SSA Sailplane Locator database correctly, and find an OGN viewer to use as at least a temporary substitute for glideport.aero.
I would encourage others to do the same. And, I plan to keep OGN tracking active and in my "toolkit" even after glideport.aero comes back to life, I kinda like having redundancy in tracking my flying buddies.
So, points 3 and 4 in my original post still stand. Please consider getting registered up for OGN tracking also.
Cheers,
Jim J6
Dan Marotta
Feb 8, 2022, 6:59:05 PM2/8/22
to
ADS-B coverage in New Mexico is good and my glider has two batteries and
solar cells.
Dan
5J
solar cells.
Dan
5J
John Godfrey
Feb 9, 2022, 8:15:04 AM2/9/22
to
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 9, 2022, 9:44:38 AM2/9/22
to
Fair comment, John.
However, so far IN MY INITIAL ASSESSMENTS I am a bit disappointed in how the OGN viewers work and what they can show (but I acknowledge that I haven't thoroughly investigated all the capabilities yet). At a minimum they seem clunky and incomplete for what I want to do. Which is to:
1. Rapidly and easily home in on who is currently soaring in a particular area, both real-time and at ANY time during the current soaring day. Past soaring day's tracks is a nice-to-have, but is not critical (we can look at OLC for that).
2. See clearly who it is (by name and contest letter, NOT ICAO number, registration number, or other gibberish requiring a decoder ring).
3. Compare two/three/any number of tracks via overlay.
4. See in a very readable format the altitude profile, Imperial as well as Metric units
5. Do all this on my smart phone.
6. And probably a few other functions which I can't remember at this particular moment.
So far I am not finding all of this in any one OGN viewer (but as I said I haven't dug into all the features of each one yet.... And I haven't fired them up yet on my smart phone yet either.).
Hence my other thread on OGN Viewers: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/_5YCcTDS4yc
So far that OGN Viewers thread is not getting much action. Over the next few weeks I will be methodically assessing the OGN viewers and I will post my findings, but in the meantime it would be nice to hear from other more-knowledgable/smarter-than-me people about their pro/con assessments of the various OGN viewers. Please weigh in on the OGN Viewers thread if you have some experience with them.
One more comment here: The "gold standard" for real-time tracking for emergency purposes is the root tracking map or "share page" for the particular satellite location service that the pilot-in-question is using. Once I am personally past the "fun" tracking stage and thinking that it might be a real emergency, I will switch to the "share page". More reliable than any OGN viewer or glideport.aero. And also directly shows messages coming in from the tracking device. I am pretty sure that this is what the professional search and rescue folk would want to use, also. Hence it is important I feel for folk to make sure their "share page" is findable. The SSA Sailplane Locator database serves this function well here in the USA, as long as people register. Another idea is to set up your own "tracking page" website, with an easy to remember address, and hand it out freely to your flying buddies (here is mine, first draft version http://trackjim.com ).
Finally, some folk have had problems finding or registering for the SSA Sailplane Locator database. It is there and operating. I will start a new thread on this subject.
Cheers,
Jim J6
However, so far IN MY INITIAL ASSESSMENTS I am a bit disappointed in how the OGN viewers work and what they can show (but I acknowledge that I haven't thoroughly investigated all the capabilities yet). At a minimum they seem clunky and incomplete for what I want to do. Which is to:
1. Rapidly and easily home in on who is currently soaring in a particular area, both real-time and at ANY time during the current soaring day. Past soaring day's tracks is a nice-to-have, but is not critical (we can look at OLC for that).
2. See clearly who it is (by name and contest letter, NOT ICAO number, registration number, or other gibberish requiring a decoder ring).
3. Compare two/three/any number of tracks via overlay.
4. See in a very readable format the altitude profile, Imperial as well as Metric units
5. Do all this on my smart phone.
6. And probably a few other functions which I can't remember at this particular moment.
So far I am not finding all of this in any one OGN viewer (but as I said I haven't dug into all the features of each one yet.... And I haven't fired them up yet on my smart phone yet either.).
Hence my other thread on OGN Viewers: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/_5YCcTDS4yc
So far that OGN Viewers thread is not getting much action. Over the next few weeks I will be methodically assessing the OGN viewers and I will post my findings, but in the meantime it would be nice to hear from other more-knowledgable/smarter-than-me people about their pro/con assessments of the various OGN viewers. Please weigh in on the OGN Viewers thread if you have some experience with them.
One more comment here: The "gold standard" for real-time tracking for emergency purposes is the root tracking map or "share page" for the particular satellite location service that the pilot-in-question is using. Once I am personally past the "fun" tracking stage and thinking that it might be a real emergency, I will switch to the "share page". More reliable than any OGN viewer or glideport.aero. And also directly shows messages coming in from the tracking device. I am pretty sure that this is what the professional search and rescue folk would want to use, also. Hence it is important I feel for folk to make sure their "share page" is findable. The SSA Sailplane Locator database serves this function well here in the USA, as long as people register. Another idea is to set up your own "tracking page" website, with an easy to remember address, and hand it out freely to your flying buddies (here is mine, first draft version http://trackjim.com ).
Finally, some folk have had problems finding or registering for the SSA Sailplane Locator database. It is there and operating. I will start a new thread on this subject.
Cheers,
Jim J6
John Godfrey
Feb 9, 2022, 6:10:12 PM2/9/22
to
David Leonard
Feb 9, 2022, 9:41:53 PM2/9/22
to
Its backend was apparently pulling in data for a good portion of its
down time.
Ramy
Feb 9, 2022, 10:00:56 PM2/9/22
to
OGN is great, and what Davis did is fantastic. However none of the OGN UI I tried come close in functionality and usability to glideport. The shortcoming already mentioned in this thread. In fact giving how popular OGN is, it is mind boggling why no one has created a more usable UI, like glideport. Personally I would love to see a glideport like UI implemented for OGN combining and merging all sources. This will be the winner.
Glideport is back online, but you need to access it directly on glideport.aero
Ramy
Glideport is back online, but you need to access it directly on glideport.aero
Ramy
Moshe Braner
Feb 9, 2022, 10:35:59 PM2/9/22
to
Glideport offered many features that are not found in any OGN viewers
that I am aware of, at least not in combination:
* visible track
* barogram
* view flights from before today
* view today's flights in a specific contest
* view the task assigned today in a specific contest
The last 2 points in that list require some sort of back-channel
communications between the view-generating system and the contest data
system, since there is nothing in the FLARM/Inreach/IGCdroid
transmissions that carries that sort of information. Any task
declaration within the flight log is only available later when that file
is uploaded somewhere.
Thus I think the universal data exchange protocols of OGN are good to
build on, and so are some of the viewing features in Glideport. The two
aspects, think of them as back-end and front-end, are separable.
Except for the issue with OGN not allowing use of their data beyond 24
hours. This limitation should be negotiated away with OGN for use in
the USA, on some sort of individual opt-in basis.
Davis Chappins
Feb 10, 2022, 2:57:25 PM2/10/22
to
It appears there is lots of confusion on what the OGN actually is. Here is what it is and how it works.
Your FLARM equipped glider sends out multiple transmissions a second
An OGN receiver (raspberry pi based, just like ADSB receivers) receives the transmission and uploads it to the OGN servers
The OGN servers collect data from the 1500 OGN receivers around the world
The OGN servers send out position data to any device that requests it
A transmission looks like this ICA7C6B41>APRS,qAS,E68:/023622h3040.01N/15149.97W'194/445/A=034000 !W00! id057C6B41 -256fpm +0.0rot 12.3dB 0e +0.0kHz gps2x3
What does this mean? Websites like glideport.aero that are showing FLARM position data are receiving OGN data from the OGN servers. There is no difference between glideport and an OGN website like glidertracker.org or glideandseek.com when it comes to FLARM aircraft.
What is different (and bad) about glideport.aero is that it requires a whitelist (a signup/registration) to display your glider. That means if someone doesn't make an account and register their ICAO data ("7C6B41" in the example above) then they WILL NOT APPEAR on glideport at all. Is this a good design? no. If you look at glideport and other OGN websites at the same time you'll see much less aircraft on glideport. Check Florida right now and over the weekend.
Glideport also forces you to choose a region first to view an aircraft and you can only view one region at a time. Who would force UI design like that? Make it a map with airplanes like https://globe.adsbexchange.com/ or glidertracker.org or glideandseek.com
What glideport does do well is it pings SPOT and Inreach positions and publishes it (on its website only, it does not send to the OGN). Since signups for glideport are broken I replicated that function except I am actually sending the position transmission to the OGN so that any site can see it. But it requires a signup - see https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/1zYbIJe7AkY/m/b9V3v4MFAQAJ
What about other OGN viewers?
glidertracker.org and glideandseek.com are the best (functionality, display, info, etc)
They display tracks of gliders (multiple, and track length is selectable)
They display a barogram for the selected glider
See this link for a picture https://i.imgur.com/hfbML3I.jpg
They don't show flights from previous days (use OLC or Weglide)
They can show task or contest overlays glidertracker.org needs some URL manipulation to point to the tsk file https://glidertracker.org/#tsk=https://pastebin.com/raw/fWs9Kgrz&lat=-30.048&lon=150.463&z=8&id= but glideandseek.com can pull from soaringspot https://glideandseek.com/?taskOneUrl=http://www.soaringspot.com/en/2022-dual-seat-nationals-lake-keepit-2022/tasks/double-seater/task-2-on-2022-01-31&viewport=-30.21433,150.32403,9
glidertracker.org shows flights after the aircraft has landed (choose 24h for track to show those aircraft then click on it)
OGN transmissions are identified by the ICAO code only ("7C6B41" in the example above) and websites use ddb.glidernet.org as a lookup table for N number, registration, aircraft type, etc. There are 23,000 entries go register your aircraft if you show up as the ICAO code only.
They both work on my iphone just fine. You can "add to homescreen" to make a shortcut to those sites directly.
The only downside to the whole system is the low number of OGN receivers in the USA. See https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dSaOqBtaSNxZhmTQWSyi6TUXkgCTwSp7?usp=sharing I've tried to make it as easy as possible.
I hope that answered all of the questions.
Your FLARM equipped glider sends out multiple transmissions a second
An OGN receiver (raspberry pi based, just like ADSB receivers) receives the transmission and uploads it to the OGN servers
The OGN servers collect data from the 1500 OGN receivers around the world
The OGN servers send out position data to any device that requests it
A transmission looks like this ICA7C6B41>APRS,qAS,E68:/023622h3040.01N/15149.97W'194/445/A=034000 !W00! id057C6B41 -256fpm +0.0rot 12.3dB 0e +0.0kHz gps2x3
What does this mean? Websites like glideport.aero that are showing FLARM position data are receiving OGN data from the OGN servers. There is no difference between glideport and an OGN website like glidertracker.org or glideandseek.com when it comes to FLARM aircraft.
What is different (and bad) about glideport.aero is that it requires a whitelist (a signup/registration) to display your glider. That means if someone doesn't make an account and register their ICAO data ("7C6B41" in the example above) then they WILL NOT APPEAR on glideport at all. Is this a good design? no. If you look at glideport and other OGN websites at the same time you'll see much less aircraft on glideport. Check Florida right now and over the weekend.
Glideport also forces you to choose a region first to view an aircraft and you can only view one region at a time. Who would force UI design like that? Make it a map with airplanes like https://globe.adsbexchange.com/ or glidertracker.org or glideandseek.com
What glideport does do well is it pings SPOT and Inreach positions and publishes it (on its website only, it does not send to the OGN). Since signups for glideport are broken I replicated that function except I am actually sending the position transmission to the OGN so that any site can see it. But it requires a signup - see https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/1zYbIJe7AkY/m/b9V3v4MFAQAJ
What about other OGN viewers?
glidertracker.org and glideandseek.com are the best (functionality, display, info, etc)
They display tracks of gliders (multiple, and track length is selectable)
They display a barogram for the selected glider
See this link for a picture https://i.imgur.com/hfbML3I.jpg
They don't show flights from previous days (use OLC or Weglide)
They can show task or contest overlays glidertracker.org needs some URL manipulation to point to the tsk file https://glidertracker.org/#tsk=https://pastebin.com/raw/fWs9Kgrz&lat=-30.048&lon=150.463&z=8&id= but glideandseek.com can pull from soaringspot https://glideandseek.com/?taskOneUrl=http://www.soaringspot.com/en/2022-dual-seat-nationals-lake-keepit-2022/tasks/double-seater/task-2-on-2022-01-31&viewport=-30.21433,150.32403,9
glidertracker.org shows flights after the aircraft has landed (choose 24h for track to show those aircraft then click on it)
OGN transmissions are identified by the ICAO code only ("7C6B41" in the example above) and websites use ddb.glidernet.org as a lookup table for N number, registration, aircraft type, etc. There are 23,000 entries go register your aircraft if you show up as the ICAO code only.
They both work on my iphone just fine. You can "add to homescreen" to make a shortcut to those sites directly.
The only downside to the whole system is the low number of OGN receivers in the USA. See https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dSaOqBtaSNxZhmTQWSyi6TUXkgCTwSp7?usp=sharing I've tried to make it as easy as possible.
I hope that answered all of the questions.
Moshe Braner
Feb 10, 2022, 5:13:58 PM2/10/22
to
that Glideport pulls data from OGN. I thought that that is something
that is theoretically possible, and desirable, but Glideport is not
doing as yet? Or am I mistaken on that?
In the past there was virtually no US glider traffic data flowing into
OGN (for lack of ground stations listening to FLARMs, and before you set
up a way to send SPOT & Inreach data to OGN). Maybe that's why I didn't
see anything on Glideport other than SPOT and Inreach data (what was
directly accessed, without involving OGN) and IGCdroid data (also a
direct feed, from that smartphone app into Glideport). (IGCdroid now
offers a feed into OGN too. And Skylines.)
Davis Chappins
Feb 10, 2022, 5:26:16 PM2/10/22
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Moshe you are correct, looking more at glideport it seems it just pulls SPOT and Inreach data and puts it on a map. I just assumed it displayed real time FLARM aircraft positions....
Here is glideport and glidertracker side by side. Glidertracker (and any other OGN website) is showing more aircraft and at 1s position intervals. https://i.imgur.com/bOxcuDo.png It seems crazy to me to choose glideport over other sites.
With all of the data flowing into the OGN now I don't know why anyone would purposely choose a separate system.
Here is glideport and glidertracker side by side. Glidertracker (and any other OGN website) is showing more aircraft and at 1s position intervals. https://i.imgur.com/bOxcuDo.png It seems crazy to me to choose glideport over other sites.
With all of the data flowing into the OGN now I don't know why anyone would purposely choose a separate system.
Ramy
Feb 10, 2022, 6:18:52 PM2/10/22
to
Glideport will display your flarm if you register on a third party service that Niv created.
See instructions at https://www.pacificsoaring.org/articles/2020/using-ogn/using-ogn.html
Agree it would be much better if it was able to pull from OGN instead.
Regarding the UI:
For most of us I don’t think the glideport regions is a limitation. It was never an issue for me. But I agree a normal map would be better. That said, glideport has many important UI features that all other OGN viewers lack:
1- list of all aircrafts currently flying or flown today, sorted by distance etc, contest ID etc.
2- full track of the whole flight. You can view one or more tracks.
3- barogram of each selected flight.
4- stats like distance, speed etc.
5- configurable and persistent so you don’t have to keep changing the settings every time you login.
6- history.
None of the OGN viewers that I tried can do any of that. They just show current position of aircrafts with current data (and only showing correct contest ID if the pilot registered). You have to go each time and change setting to see some length of trace. At the end of the day you not going to see much, certainly not the next day. OLC or Weglide is not the solution for history. Those are separate unrelated services which are only showing submitted flights. Not the same thing.
Also some viewers like the popular glidertracker do not work reliably on all devices.
Ramy
See instructions at https://www.pacificsoaring.org/articles/2020/using-ogn/using-ogn.html
Agree it would be much better if it was able to pull from OGN instead.
Regarding the UI:
For most of us I don’t think the glideport regions is a limitation. It was never an issue for me. But I agree a normal map would be better. That said, glideport has many important UI features that all other OGN viewers lack:
1- list of all aircrafts currently flying or flown today, sorted by distance etc, contest ID etc.
2- full track of the whole flight. You can view one or more tracks.
3- barogram of each selected flight.
4- stats like distance, speed etc.
5- configurable and persistent so you don’t have to keep changing the settings every time you login.
6- history.
None of the OGN viewers that I tried can do any of that. They just show current position of aircrafts with current data (and only showing correct contest ID if the pilot registered). You have to go each time and change setting to see some length of trace. At the end of the day you not going to see much, certainly not the next day. OLC or Weglide is not the solution for history. Those are separate unrelated services which are only showing submitted flights. Not the same thing.
Also some viewers like the popular glidertracker do not work reliably on all devices.
Ramy
Moshe Braner
Feb 10, 2022, 7:22:04 PM2/10/22
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with US contests in mind, and it worked OK for that while it was maintained.
And, its viewing capabilities were OK too. Of course some of the newer
systems are slicker. But it worked.
Again, the front end and back end are separate. Glideport *could* be
jiggered to get data from OGN too. Whether that is a better approach
than piggy-backing on the existing OGN viewers, well that depends on
what it's like under the hood, which I can't see. And what features you
want to have in viewing. And the politics of getting some foreign
viewer site to agree to the whims of US glider pilots' preferences.
jfitch
Feb 10, 2022, 9:13:00 PM2/10/22
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I just looked at glideandseek and a couple of others. Ramy is right, these do not supply anything like what we are used to with glideport. I am speaking for the US West, out here there are very few OGN receivers and there *never will be*. The terrain is for the most part uninhabited and uninhabitable, no power available, no cell service, no one is going to install and maintain OGN receivers. If someone crashes or lands out it may be weeks or months before they are found. Our FBO uses glideport to determine if everyone has made it home, and if not where they might have ended up.
Certainly a web resource could be developed to incorporate both Flarm tracking (useful for populated areas) and satellite trackers (the ONLY thing that works in unpopulated areas), but this facility does not seem to currently exist. OLC is in no way a substitute for glideport, there may be 40 gliders flying out of Minden and Truckee showing on glideport and only 10 flights will be posted on OLC, some days later. A useful service must at a minimum have tracks and altitudes, the ability to display many or all gliders in an area, updated in more or less real time, and history of a week or preferably more. Glideport, when it is running, does these things, and well.
There was a comment that the gold standard is the root tracking page from Garmin or Spot. This is pretty much what is harvested and displayed by glideport, filtered for glider operations, and collected in one place, easily accessible on a PC or phone.
Certainly a web resource could be developed to incorporate both Flarm tracking (useful for populated areas) and satellite trackers (the ONLY thing that works in unpopulated areas), but this facility does not seem to currently exist. OLC is in no way a substitute for glideport, there may be 40 gliders flying out of Minden and Truckee showing on glideport and only 10 flights will be posted on OLC, some days later. A useful service must at a minimum have tracks and altitudes, the ability to display many or all gliders in an area, updated in more or less real time, and history of a week or preferably more. Glideport, when it is running, does these things, and well.
There was a comment that the gold standard is the root tracking page from Garmin or Spot. This is pretty much what is harvested and displayed by glideport, filtered for glider operations, and collected in one place, easily accessible on a PC or phone.
John Godfrey
Feb 11, 2022, 8:04:50 AM2/11/22
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John Godfrey
Feb 11, 2022, 8:07:23 AM2/11/22
to
jfitch
Feb 11, 2022, 11:24:29 AM2/11/22
to
Can you point me to an OGN viewer that displays this, along with multiple tracks and history? The inclusion of data, without the ability to usefully view it isn't by itself helpful.
Andy Blackburn
Feb 11, 2022, 1:49:33 PM2/11/22
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Seems like there are two issues that are interrelated but distinct.
A) Glider position sources:
1) Flarm (via OGN receivers) - available by default, limited deployment in US but growing, high resolution, good in populated areas or proximate to glider operations
2) ADS-B (via ADS-B ground stations) - available by default, limited but growing deployment in gliders, high resolution, broad geographic coverage - except when low in some mountainous areas
3) Satellite trackers - opt-in/registration, broadly deployed in gliders in the US, medium to low resolution (may not have altitude, infrequent position updates, drops), very broad geographic coverage
4) Cellular trackers - opt-in/registration, limited deployment in gliders, limited coverage, high resolution (depending on buffering, etc)
B) Tracking viewers, both the traffic sources they display and the level of functionality they offer in terms of tracks, history, persistence, search for pilots, etc. Also functionality like contest task overlays or even near real-time leaderboards.
It seems to me like there are two potential pathways and perhaps both should be pursued.
1) Reach out to the various OGN viewer developers to see which ones have interest/ability in adding valuable functionality that is currently lacking. This could include adding traffic types - though Davis was able to add satellite tracking almost entirely on his own, so maybe some of that part can be an independent effort.
2) Resurrect the SSA tracker effort and add the missing traffic types so it is more full-functioned in terms of traffic types. I do worry that without a team of highly motivated developers to really take it forward it will ultimately fall further and further behind and the OGN viewers do have interesting capabilities currently and in the works that don't exist on glidepwort.aero.
Andy Blackburn
9B
A) Glider position sources:
1) Flarm (via OGN receivers) - available by default, limited deployment in US but growing, high resolution, good in populated areas or proximate to glider operations
2) ADS-B (via ADS-B ground stations) - available by default, limited but growing deployment in gliders, high resolution, broad geographic coverage - except when low in some mountainous areas
3) Satellite trackers - opt-in/registration, broadly deployed in gliders in the US, medium to low resolution (may not have altitude, infrequent position updates, drops), very broad geographic coverage
4) Cellular trackers - opt-in/registration, limited deployment in gliders, limited coverage, high resolution (depending on buffering, etc)
B) Tracking viewers, both the traffic sources they display and the level of functionality they offer in terms of tracks, history, persistence, search for pilots, etc. Also functionality like contest task overlays or even near real-time leaderboards.
It seems to me like there are two potential pathways and perhaps both should be pursued.
1) Reach out to the various OGN viewer developers to see which ones have interest/ability in adding valuable functionality that is currently lacking. This could include adding traffic types - though Davis was able to add satellite tracking almost entirely on his own, so maybe some of that part can be an independent effort.
2) Resurrect the SSA tracker effort and add the missing traffic types so it is more full-functioned in terms of traffic types. I do worry that without a team of highly motivated developers to really take it forward it will ultimately fall further and further behind and the OGN viewers do have interesting capabilities currently and in the works that don't exist on glidepwort.aero.
Andy Blackburn
9B
Davis Chappins
Feb 11, 2022, 2:04:27 PM2/11/22
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Andy, regarding B1 I've also added ADSB tracking. I'm pulling from 1202 transponder aircraft in the USA and publishing to the OGN. Care is taken not to overwrite a target that is being tracked by FLARM until the last FLARM position is older than 2 minutes. So if a glider is equipped with both FLARM and ADSB out, there will be a seamless transition.
If you look at Florida right now there are a few ADSB gliders flying. The receiver is listed as "ASDBExch".
This along with the SPOT/Inreach stuff is running on my (now incredibly valuable) raspberry pi at home.
They won't show up on glideport because that site whitelists targets ie you have to sign up or else you're ignored (which is bad design). I've tried to contact the dev but you need to login first and the login/signup system is broken.
If you look at Florida right now there are a few ADSB gliders flying. The receiver is listed as "ASDBExch".
This along with the SPOT/Inreach stuff is running on my (now incredibly valuable) raspberry pi at home.
They won't show up on glideport because that site whitelists targets ie you have to sign up or else you're ignored (which is bad design). I've tried to contact the dev but you need to login first and the login/signup system is broken.
Moshe Braner
Feb 11, 2022, 2:14:48 PM2/11/22
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On 2/11/2022 1:49 PM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> Seems like there are two issues that are interrelated but distinct.
>
> A) Glider position sources:
> 1) Flarm (via OGN receivers) - available by default, limited deployment in US but growing, high resolution, good in populated areas or proximate to glider operations
>
> 2) ADS-B (via ADS-B ground stations) - available by default, limited but growing deployment in gliders, high resolution, broad geographic coverage - except when low in some mountainous areas
>
> 3) Satellite trackers - opt-in/registration, broadly deployed in gliders in the US, medium to low resolution (may not have altitude, infrequent position updates, drops), very broad geographic coverage
>
> 4) Cellular trackers - opt-in/registration, limited deployment in gliders, limited coverage, high resolution (depending on buffering, etc)
>
> B) Tracking viewers, both the traffic sources they display and the level of functionality they offer in terms of tracks, history, persistence, search for pilots, etc. Also functionality like contest task overlays or even near real-time leaderboards.
>
> It seems to me like there are two potential pathways and perhaps both should be pursued.
>
> 1) Reach out to the various OGN viewer developers to see which ones have interest/ability in adding valuable functionality that is currently lacking. This could include adding traffic types - though Davis was able to add satellite tracking almost entirely on his own, so maybe some of that part can be an independent effort.
>
> 2) Resurrect the SSA tracker effort and add the missing traffic types so it is more full-functioned in terms of traffic types. I do worry that without a team of highly motivated developers to really take it forward it will ultimately fall further and further behind and the OGN viewers do have interesting capabilities currently and in the works that don't exist on glidepwort.aero.
>
> Andy Blackburn
> 9B
Good summary. One quibble:
> Seems like there are two issues that are interrelated but distinct.
>
> A) Glider position sources:
> 1) Flarm (via OGN receivers) - available by default, limited deployment in US but growing, high resolution, good in populated areas or proximate to glider operations
>
> 2) ADS-B (via ADS-B ground stations) - available by default, limited but growing deployment in gliders, high resolution, broad geographic coverage - except when low in some mountainous areas
>
> 3) Satellite trackers - opt-in/registration, broadly deployed in gliders in the US, medium to low resolution (may not have altitude, infrequent position updates, drops), very broad geographic coverage
>
> 4) Cellular trackers - opt-in/registration, limited deployment in gliders, limited coverage, high resolution (depending on buffering, etc)
>
> B) Tracking viewers, both the traffic sources they display and the level of functionality they offer in terms of tracks, history, persistence, search for pilots, etc. Also functionality like contest task overlays or even near real-time leaderboards.
>
> It seems to me like there are two potential pathways and perhaps both should be pursued.
>
> 1) Reach out to the various OGN viewer developers to see which ones have interest/ability in adding valuable functionality that is currently lacking. This could include adding traffic types - though Davis was able to add satellite tracking almost entirely on his own, so maybe some of that part can be an independent effort.
>
> 2) Resurrect the SSA tracker effort and add the missing traffic types so it is more full-functioned in terms of traffic types. I do worry that without a team of highly motivated developers to really take it forward it will ultimately fall further and further behind and the OGN viewers do have interesting capabilities currently and in the works that don't exist on glidepwort.aero.
>
> Andy Blackburn
> 9B
"Reach out to the various OGN viewer developers ... though Davis was
able to add satellite tracking almost entirely on his own..."
- that is not an "OGN Viewer" issue. Davis created a way to feed
satellite trackers' data to OGN, so it is now included in that data SOURCE.
Some of the existing viewers have non-obvious (undocumented?) additional
functionality. For example, see Davis' posting for examples of
overlaying the task on top of the map showing the gliders' positions, in
two different viewers. That involved putting the task definition, in a
format that each viewer can understand, on some web server, and then
embedding the URL for that task info as a parameter added-on to the
viewer URL. For example:
https://glideandseek.com/?taskOneUrl=http://www.soaringspot.com/en/2022-dual-seat-nationals-lake-keepit-2022/tasks/double-seater/task-2-on-2022-01-31&viewport=-30.21433,150.32403,9
Note that that viewer URL also includes a parameter to define the
location and zoom level desired in the map.
I don't know how the SSA wormhole into Glideport added on contest info,
but it may have been a similar mechanism. Whatever you want added
through such a method, the viewer's developers need to first include
that capability within the viewing server. Besides the task info it
could include contest ID and location or participants.
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 11, 2022, 3:29:56 PM2/11/22
to
Jon,
I assume you are talking about satellite locator tracks showing up on OGN, right?
I have registered my satellite locator (InReach Mini) for OGN through Davis' system, therefore I should be being fed into the OGN data feed.
As a test of this, I fired up my InReach Mini yesterday and had it on for a little backroads adventure driving trip in the Talladega National Forest. My track DID show up real-time in the one OGN viewer for iPhone, "Aufwind Glider Tracker". I only took occasional looks at it, and I was outside cell tower range for much of our trip, plus I was very busy watching the trails for rocks, ruts, mud etc to pay real close attention to it. But I did see my track, despite of course NO OGN ground station coverage.
It works! Thank you, Davis, this is very good, another way to track! I love it!
I don't believe there is anything obvious that shows if an OGN track is from an FLARM/OGN ground station hit or a satellite locator position inserted into the OGN data feed. But the iPhone OGN viewer doesn't give many option, perhaps the web browser OGN viewers might allow drilling down into the details of a particular track, to tell you the source.... I'm not smart enough on them yet.
This thread is shaping up into a very very interesting discussion. Thanks to everyone for contributing to this valuable discussion.
Cheers,
Jim J6
I assume you are talking about satellite locator tracks showing up on OGN, right?
I have registered my satellite locator (InReach Mini) for OGN through Davis' system, therefore I should be being fed into the OGN data feed.
As a test of this, I fired up my InReach Mini yesterday and had it on for a little backroads adventure driving trip in the Talladega National Forest. My track DID show up real-time in the one OGN viewer for iPhone, "Aufwind Glider Tracker". I only took occasional looks at it, and I was outside cell tower range for much of our trip, plus I was very busy watching the trails for rocks, ruts, mud etc to pay real close attention to it. But I did see my track, despite of course NO OGN ground station coverage.
It works! Thank you, Davis, this is very good, another way to track! I love it!
I don't believe there is anything obvious that shows if an OGN track is from an FLARM/OGN ground station hit or a satellite locator position inserted into the OGN data feed. But the iPhone OGN viewer doesn't give many option, perhaps the web browser OGN viewers might allow drilling down into the details of a particular track, to tell you the source.... I'm not smart enough on them yet.
This thread is shaping up into a very very interesting discussion. Thanks to everyone for contributing to this valuable discussion.
Cheers,
Jim J6
Davis Chappins
Feb 11, 2022, 3:55:57 PM2/11/22
to
On ios, safari, go to glidertracker.org then click the share icon, scroll down then tap add to home screen and glidertracker.org is now an icon on your home screen (just like an app). This works for glideandseek.com too. https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/add-a-web-link-to-home-screen-iphone-ipad/
You can do the same on android https://browserhow.com/how-to-add-to-home-screen-shortcut-links-with-chrome-android/
Then ditch the aufwind app.
Glidertracker and glideandseek shows data source when you tap (or click) on an icon. Infobox on the top right.
You can do the same on android https://browserhow.com/how-to-add-to-home-screen-shortcut-links-with-chrome-android/
Then ditch the aufwind app.
Glidertracker and glideandseek shows data source when you tap (or click) on an icon. Infobox on the top right.
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 11, 2022, 4:06:50 PM2/11/22
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Ramy,
Very interesting.... A few questions: by registering with Niv's service, do my FLARM hits from the California network of receivers shown go DIRECTLY into glideport.aero, like the sat locator data does? Does this registration with Niv's service send FLARM hits from other OGN receivers outside California to glideport.aero? Could the full OGN data stream be fed into glideport.aero similarly (but without the need to register with Niv's service?
Just rambling thoughts about getting the maximum amount of tracking coverage and redundancy.
Cheers,
Jim J6
Very interesting.... A few questions: by registering with Niv's service, do my FLARM hits from the California network of receivers shown go DIRECTLY into glideport.aero, like the sat locator data does? Does this registration with Niv's service send FLARM hits from other OGN receivers outside California to glideport.aero? Could the full OGN data stream be fed into glideport.aero similarly (but without the need to register with Niv's service?
Just rambling thoughts about getting the maximum amount of tracking coverage and redundancy.
Cheers,
Jim J6
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 11, 2022, 4:08:41 PM2/11/22
to
Great input, I will do this. Thanks, Davis, you have advanced the state of glider tracking art significantly. Kudos.
Cheers,
Jim J6
Cheers,
Jim J6
Ron Gleason
Feb 11, 2022, 4:22:33 PM2/11/22
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Ramy
Feb 11, 2022, 4:48:51 PM2/11/22
to
Jim, I don’t think it is limited by geography. Unless there is time zone conversion involved which I seem to recall. As far as I know it is pushing packets directly to glideport. You need to be able to access your glideport profile to add it. So you need to both register with his service (which is not automatic I believe he manually processes it) and also add it to your glideport profile as described.
Ramy
Ramy
jfitch
Feb 11, 2022, 9:02:04 PM2/11/22
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I will try that. But just now I brought up glideport, glidetracker, and glideandseek in three different windows. Glidetracker shows absolutely nothing, and the track menu only allows 24 hours. Glideandseek showed two glider (for example) flying in the Maricopa area, I could see their tracks but not much else and shortly thereafter they disappeared and have not reappeared. Did they age out? No way to know. The track length settings are only "short" and "long" but I assume long is <=24 hours. Glideport shows a glider out of El Tiro (H8), I can see his track, his altitude, his speed and altitude on each flight segment, and I can scroll back and see that he also flew last Saturday (including all of that information), I can scroll further back and see that he had a nice flight on July 17 of 2021. I can see all of the turnpoints used in that region. All with a friendlier UI than glidetracker or glideandseek. I can go back to last year's, or the year before or many years before contest in any region and review all flights and tasks with a few clicks.
As mentioned above, there are two very distinct issues: collecting data from data sources, and the display of that data - these are mostly independent problems. I'm by no means married to glideport, but my limited trolling on OGN displays has left me with the impression that they have a *very* long way to go to duplicate what glideport does today. Again this facility may exist on OGN but so far no one has pointed me to it. Perhaps I am the only one that considers this functionality valuable, to the extent that it is, one must ask if it is more work to duplicate it in an OGN viewer, or add OGN data to it.
As mentioned above, there are two very distinct issues: collecting data from data sources, and the display of that data - these are mostly independent problems. I'm by no means married to glideport, but my limited trolling on OGN displays has left me with the impression that they have a *very* long way to go to duplicate what glideport does today. Again this facility may exist on OGN but so far no one has pointed me to it. Perhaps I am the only one that considers this functionality valuable, to the extent that it is, one must ask if it is more work to duplicate it in an OGN viewer, or add OGN data to it.
Davis Chappins
Feb 11, 2022, 9:58:06 PM2/11/22
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No idea what you are doing incorrectly but glidertracker shows dozens of aircraft that are greyed out (no active signal). If you click on one of these then it shows the track. See my settings on the left side. Glidertracker shows FLARM and Inreach on the same display at the same time (red vs blue).
The last transmission from H8 is over 3hrs ago.
If you set both settings to 24h you can see there were 5 gliders out of ElTiro, another 5 at E68, 5 or 6 in CA, about 10 in TX, another 8 in FL and the east coast. Click on their greyed out aircraft icon to see the track.
https://i.imgur.com/uCnnqoX.png
There is also a help in the menu that tells you what does what.
The stupid thing about glideport is that it whitelists FLARM aircraft so you have to sign up to be visible, even though the OGN servers are blasting out locations. Why can't it show all gliders flying around? Isn't that the point? But you can't sign up if you wanted to because the login/signup system is and has been broken. All glideport has to do is display all FLARM aircraft in the USA and use ddb.glidernet.org as a lookup table for information (reg, CN, type, etc).
The last transmission from H8 is over 3hrs ago.
If you set both settings to 24h you can see there were 5 gliders out of ElTiro, another 5 at E68, 5 or 6 in CA, about 10 in TX, another 8 in FL and the east coast. Click on their greyed out aircraft icon to see the track.
https://i.imgur.com/uCnnqoX.png
There is also a help in the menu that tells you what does what.
The stupid thing about glideport is that it whitelists FLARM aircraft so you have to sign up to be visible, even though the OGN servers are blasting out locations. Why can't it show all gliders flying around? Isn't that the point? But you can't sign up if you wanted to because the login/signup system is and has been broken. All glideport has to do is display all FLARM aircraft in the USA and use ddb.glidernet.org as a lookup table for information (reg, CN, type, etc).
jfitch
Feb 12, 2022, 11:27:30 AM2/12/22
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The behavior of glidetracker seems to depend on the browser you use. Does not work at all on Safari, works to some extent on Firefox. This morning I can see a glider flying at El Tiro (only on Firefox) but even when set to 24 hours no gliders flying yesterday (and yet there were). I can see the same thing on iOS, only today nothing from yesterday. On the other hand the Locate Me function does not work on Firefox, any refresh takes you back to Germany.
I won't defend glideports use of data or whitelisting policy. Since it only displays satellite, you would of course have to sign up, since each track comes from a different and unique source. The fact that the sign up mechanism is temporarily broken is a detail of maintenance, which we all agree could be improved. Nevertheless, for tracks that it displays, it has much higher functionality than glidetracker.
I won't defend glideports use of data or whitelisting policy. Since it only displays satellite, you would of course have to sign up, since each track comes from a different and unique source. The fact that the sign up mechanism is temporarily broken is a detail of maintenance, which we all agree could be improved. Nevertheless, for tracks that it displays, it has much higher functionality than glidetracker.
Dan Marotta
Feb 12, 2022, 11:56:08 AM2/12/22
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Now that's pretty spiffy! I can see a glider on tow at Tucson using
glidertracker.org... There are a couple in South America and several in
Europe, as well.
Dan
5J
glidertracker.org... There are a couple in South America and several in
Europe, as well.
Dan
5J
Dan Marotta
Feb 12, 2022, 12:00:11 PM2/12/22
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Not Tucson but I was looking at Williams Gliderport (CN12) in
California. And I'm using the Brave browser.
Dan
5J
California. And I'm using the Brave browser.
Dan
5J
Ramy
Feb 13, 2022, 12:16:43 AM2/13/22
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Davis the reason why glideport does not support OGN is simply since when glideport was created nearly 10 years ago there was no OGN and no ADSB, just spots and Inreach. So it wasn’t designed for anything else really. But later Pedja started looking into ADS-B integration before life got in the way. I am sure it can be enhanced. I am sure he will be happy to hand it over to someone else but so far the few that came forward bailed.
Ramy
Ramy
John Godfrey
Feb 13, 2022, 7:41:08 AM2/13/22
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jfitch
Feb 13, 2022, 11:40:32 AM2/13/22
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There are three orthogonal issues: Data acquisition, data retention, and display (including UI). Currently it appears that the OGN web display facilities acquire OGN automatically, satellite by opt in, do not retain the data even as long as 24 hours, and the display is rudimentary. Glideport acquires satellite by opt in, no OGN, retains the data indefinitely, and the display is rich. Either could be fixed. In my opinion the SSA should step in and fix one of them. My educated guess is that it will be easier to fix glideport, but only if the authors cooperate.
Frank Whiteley
Feb 13, 2022, 2:01:14 PM2/13/22
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Frank Whiteley
Bob Hills
Feb 13, 2022, 6:38:00 PM2/13/22
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FWIW, I flew yesterday with my trusty and reliable IGCDroid (thanks Alan) switched on just to record my time. A habit I have got in to.
Today, to my surprise, someone said that they had seen me on Flightradar24 and I should go back and look at the flight on their website. Sure enough there was my flight that I could replay. I had forgotten that last year I have had signed up to OGN which is where their data comes from.
Flightradar24 use OGN whereas Flightaware does not as I didn't see it there.
A question that arose from this is whether ATC can see that trace in realtime or is it just Flightradar24 because they use OGN data?
It sure would be a real saftey benefit if some of the SSA Eagle Fund drive could be used to develop Glideport.aero.
Bob 7U
Today, to my surprise, someone said that they had seen me on Flightradar24 and I should go back and look at the flight on their website. Sure enough there was my flight that I could replay. I had forgotten that last year I have had signed up to OGN which is where their data comes from.
Flightradar24 use OGN whereas Flightaware does not as I didn't see it there.
A question that arose from this is whether ATC can see that trace in realtime or is it just Flightradar24 because they use OGN data?
It sure would be a real saftey benefit if some of the SSA Eagle Fund drive could be used to develop Glideport.aero.
Bob 7U
Moshe Braner
Feb 13, 2022, 10:11:23 PM2/13/22
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On 2/13/2022 2:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>>> If you really like glideport, I would suggest the best technical approach is to replace it's data acquisition mechanism with a connection to OGN. Since OGN now aggregates not just FLARM but also ADS-B, cell, SPOT, and Garmin, that would seem to be a longer term, sustainable approach. IMO OGN receivers will increase a lot in the USA, but not to anywhere near the coverage achieved in Europe.
> It's not clear that if glideport could use OGN tracking, if the data could be retained. As I understand it, part of the OGN system is that although the data is retained, it is not publicly viewable after 24 hours. I haven't checked to see if that's the case on the various viewers.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
My suggestion (for Glideport) is to:
>>> If you really like glideport, I would suggest the best technical approach is to replace it's data acquisition mechanism with a connection to OGN. Since OGN now aggregates not just FLARM but also ADS-B, cell, SPOT, and Garmin, that would seem to be a longer term, sustainable approach. IMO OGN receivers will increase a lot in the USA, but not to anywhere near the coverage achieved in Europe.
> It's not clear that if glideport could use OGN tracking, if the data could be retained. As I understand it, part of the OGN system is that although the data is retained, it is not publicly viewable after 24 hours. I haven't checked to see if that's the case on the various viewers.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
* get the data via OGN
* this includes all FLARM (and perhaps ADS-B) data
- if and where there are ground stations to feed that data to OGN
- no opt-in required
* display all FLARM (and perhaps ADS-B) data, like they do in Europe:
- but not identified unless registered with OGN
- only viewable up to 24 hours
* the same FLARM data will also be viewable via the other viewers
- but only up to 24 hours
* offer an opt-in mechanism for retaining and displaying FLARM data for
more than 24 hours
* negotiate with OGN to allow such use of the data in the USA
- European privacy laws do not apply
* any other data sources fed to OGN by opt-in will also become visible
- SPOT, Inreach (via the bridge Davis set up)
- cellphone apps
But note that at this point there are very few OGN ground stations in
the USA, and only a minority of gliders (at least in my area) have FLARM
installed. That may change in the future. And the combination of all
the different ways data reaches OGN will result in significant coverage.
Frank Whiteley
Feb 14, 2022, 1:19:33 AM2/14/22
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Although European privacy laws may not apply from a US perspective, they may apply from their perspective, so it could require some mitigation.
Frank Whiteley
John Foster
Feb 14, 2022, 12:03:27 PM2/14/22
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Davis Chappins
Feb 14, 2022, 2:39:22 PM2/14/22
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OGN stations cover a radius of 40-75 miles depending on line of sight and glider type (carbon, etc) or glider antenna mounting position.
They only cost about $300 per install and will run forever. See https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dSaOqBtaSNxZhmTQWSyi6TUXkgCTwSp7?usp=sharing for a build guide / hardware list.
Local organizations could and should be funding a receiver at each glider field for safety, awareness, automatic flight logging, etc. The SSA could and should spend $15k and outfit 50 airfields with receivers.
There are 7 receivers in the US going online in the next 30 days.
If any soaring club or airfield needs help I can advise, or build/ship to you.
They only cost about $300 per install and will run forever. See https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dSaOqBtaSNxZhmTQWSyi6TUXkgCTwSp7?usp=sharing for a build guide / hardware list.
Local organizations could and should be funding a receiver at each glider field for safety, awareness, automatic flight logging, etc. The SSA could and should spend $15k and outfit 50 airfields with receivers.
There are 7 receivers in the US going online in the next 30 days.
If any soaring club or airfield needs help I can advise, or build/ship to you.
J6 aka Airport Bum
Feb 14, 2022, 3:52:36 PM2/14/22
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I recently stumbled across this into video showing some basic capabilities of glideport.aero. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhmxg1TyxSc&feature=youtu.be Although I had been using glideport.aero for years now, I learned a few things from this video.
Also, here is a longer demo of glideport.aero, this is on my To-Watch list now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1gxOEgj4Y
I thought some of you would enjoy.... Quite a capable viewer! It does pretty much everything I need it to do.
I would love to get the maximum number of data sources feeding it. Compliments of Ramy and Niv, here is a way to get your FLARM/OGN track into glideport.aero - I think. (this was previously posted by Ramy in this thread, so just a reminder). https://www.pacificsoaring.org/articles/2020/using-ogn/using-ogn.html Supposedly not limited to SoCal, but I'll be confirming this when I fly near a Florida OGN ground station in a few weeks, at Seminole Lakes Gliderport/the Seniors.
Also, I have been able to log into my long-ago-set-up glideport.aero account, but maybe a new account cannot be set up at this time. Once logged in, I looked at my "Tracking" (under the "Settings" pulldown upper right) and I saw my InReach, my newly-set-up FLARM/OGN (per above instructions from Ramy/Niv), and then noticed that an ADS-B Out tracker can be activated, supposedly! Instructions: "For ADS-B devices, the URL is adsb:ICAO where ICAO is the device ICAO code." SOMEBODY with ADS-B Out please try this, and let us know how it works!
Might all this data make the display too crowded? Might be nice to build in a way to filter out unwanted tracks, as a future enhancement. But that is getting too far ahead, let's first figure out a way to resurrect glideport.aero......
And thanks Frank for keeping us informed about status of this capable software.
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> Since my first reply to jfitch I found a reply from the developer. Please don't speculate on the longish period of lack of support, but I wouldn't wish the personal challenges faced by the developer on any of you. We may have a path forward, but give it a bit more time to sort out how this will occur. Yes, the SSA would like to sustain and continue development of Glideport or whatever it might evolve into. There are a list of items to be addressed both by the developer (or his surrogate) and also by the SSA server side managers/developers.
>
> More to follow as it develops.
>
> Frank Whiteley
Also, here is a longer demo of glideport.aero, this is on my To-Watch list now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1gxOEgj4Y
I thought some of you would enjoy.... Quite a capable viewer! It does pretty much everything I need it to do.
I would love to get the maximum number of data sources feeding it. Compliments of Ramy and Niv, here is a way to get your FLARM/OGN track into glideport.aero - I think. (this was previously posted by Ramy in this thread, so just a reminder). https://www.pacificsoaring.org/articles/2020/using-ogn/using-ogn.html Supposedly not limited to SoCal, but I'll be confirming this when I fly near a Florida OGN ground station in a few weeks, at Seminole Lakes Gliderport/the Seniors.
Also, I have been able to log into my long-ago-set-up glideport.aero account, but maybe a new account cannot be set up at this time. Once logged in, I looked at my "Tracking" (under the "Settings" pulldown upper right) and I saw my InReach, my newly-set-up FLARM/OGN (per above instructions from Ramy/Niv), and then noticed that an ADS-B Out tracker can be activated, supposedly! Instructions: "For ADS-B devices, the URL is adsb:ICAO where ICAO is the device ICAO code." SOMEBODY with ADS-B Out please try this, and let us know how it works!
Might all this data make the display too crowded? Might be nice to build in a way to filter out unwanted tracks, as a future enhancement. But that is getting too far ahead, let's first figure out a way to resurrect glideport.aero......
And thanks Frank for keeping us informed about status of this capable software.
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> Since my first reply to jfitch I found a reply from the developer. Please don't speculate on the longish period of lack of support, but I wouldn't wish the personal challenges faced by the developer on any of you. We may have a path forward, but give it a bit more time to sort out how this will occur. Yes, the SSA would like to sustain and continue development of Glideport or whatever it might evolve into. There are a list of items to be addressed both by the developer (or his surrogate) and also by the SSA server side managers/developers.
>
> More to follow as it develops.
>
> Frank Whiteley
Ramy
Feb 15, 2022, 2:28:15 PM2/15/22
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Jim,
The current glideport ADS-B option is not working. I tried it. I don’t think Pedja completed this feature.
That said, I discussed with Niv and Davis and we are looking into extending the current OGN integration with glideport to include ADS-B. Stay tuned.
Ramy
The current glideport ADS-B option is not working. I tried it. I don’t think Pedja completed this feature.
That said, I discussed with Niv and Davis and we are looking into extending the current OGN integration with glideport to include ADS-B. Stay tuned.
Ramy
Ramy
Feb 19, 2022, 1:15:28 PM2/19/22
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The good news is that thanks to Davis and Niv efforts, glideport will now show a combined trace of flarm and ADS-B for those who have both and registered with the service following the instructions at https://www.pacificsoaring.org/articles/2020/using-ogn/using-ogn.html
It requires that you still have access to your glideport profile. Otherwise if you forgot your password or don’t have an account I understand the sign up process is still not working.
Ramy
It requires that you still have access to your glideport profile. Otherwise if you forgot your password or don’t have an account I understand the sign up process is still not working.
Ramy
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