AMS-Flight - Unethical and Unprofessional Business Practices
VH_VH
through what I have been going through and to ensure that it gets the
coverage it deserves amongst the gliding community. It revolves around
a business transaction between myself and Ales Cebavs, the managing
director of AMS-Flight in Slovenia.
It began at the start of January 2010 when I made a Euro 3165.27
(about $5100 Australian dollars at the time) bank transfer to AMS-
Flight on behalf of my local sailplane repair company, for a
horizontal stabilizer for my LS3. This was after receiving a proforma
invoice which confirmed that AMS-Flight agreed to the supply of this
part. The terms and conditions required payment up front which I did
in good faith.
In mid-March, it was discovered that the wrong horizontal stabilizer
had been manufactured. Fortunately this was discovered before AMS-
Flight shipped the product although I have no proof that the wrong
part was actually manufactured. I was then advised by Ales that he
would need to try and find the correct mould needed for the
manufacture.
On 21 June 2010, I was advised by Ales that it would not be possible
to provide the horizontal stabilizer and that my money would be
refunded. I immediately provided Ales with my account details so that
the refund could be processed. After that, all went quiet. He refused
to respond to any of my e-mails requesting the status of my refund.
After two frustrating months of trying to recover my money, on 18
August I made a posting here (http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/
soaring/12723/AMS-Flight-Out-of-business). It had the desired effect
as suddenly Ales was communicating again and he was not happy,
insisting that I remove that posting before he would consider
returning "part" of my money. On 8 October I issued him with a
deadline of 15 October to return my money in full which he chose to
ignore. He seems to have lost sight of the fact that he, and AMS-
Flight, have engaged in a contract with me to provide a part. Any
legitimate and self-respecting company would refund the price in full
if it was unable to meet that contract. Ales seems to think that he
and AMS-Flight are above that and have no responsibility to do the
right and legal thing. He is in direct breach of several articles in
the Slovenian Consumer Protection Act and the Slovenian Trade Act and
I have recently reported this to the Slovenian authorities.
What really amazes me is that here is a supposedly legitimate
manufacturing company, whose relatively small customer base is
primarily made up of the gliding community, that shows no respect for
that customer base and is quite willing to keep any money paid to it
regardless of the outcome. No business can survive these days with
that kind of attitude. Maybe one day Ales might be kind enough to
offer an explanation for his irrational behaviour.
I must point out that these comments are in no way intended to reflect
badly on those companies listed as distributors on the AMS-Flight
website. They are independent of AMS-Flight and I am certain they have
their own issues with Ales.
It would be very interesting to hear from others who have had a run-in
with Ales and AMS-Flight. If there are enough of us then maybe we can
bring some collective pressure to bear, whether that be in the form of
a class action lawsuit or simply reporting these illegal and criminal
activities to the Slovenian authorities. In any case, I will continue
to fight to have Ales return my money. As an individual I certainly
cannot afford to ignore someone who is effectively attempting to steal
over AUD$5000 from me.
Bob
Dave Springford
On the 1st of March 2009 we sent a wire transfer to AMS for the
purchase of canopy gas struts for a modification to our DG-505 and for
a tail skid for the club's LS4.
After waiting for over a year and receiving no response from Ales at
AMS, I involved the Canadian representative for AMS, who communicated
with Ales, he agreed to refund the money for the tail skid, (as after
a year of waiting we sourced another) and send the gas struts for the
505.
It is now Oct 2010 - 18 months later, and we still do not have the
parts or the money refunded.
As of about April or May, even his Canadian distributor was not
getting answers to any email inquiries.
The moral here - If you need parts from AMS - don't send them money
until you get your parts.
I would be happy to provide details in support of some sort of action
against AMS.
PK
The moral of the story.....Pay with a credit card and you may have
some recourse. PeterK
VH_VH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for your input and hindsight is always 20/20. However there is
more here than the issue of the method of payment and I was certainly
unaware of any credit card option with AMS. Looking at the bigger
picture, we as the gliding community see many manufacturers struggling
and coming up with new and creative ways to generate revenue or at
least cover their costs. The last thing we need is a corrupt operator
thrown into the mix and, as a matter of principle, we need to stick
together and make it known in no uncertain terms that this behaviour
is unacceptable, will not be tolerated, and that any money owed must
be returned to the rightful owner and without delay.
Terry Hatton
>
> - Show quoted text -
In December 2009, I took my ASW20BL to slovenia from the UK for a
complete refinish. It was the first refinish AMS-Flight did for a UK
glider (im told). It was there for about 12 weeks. Communicatrion
was a little tricky but I later realised that there are not alot of
staff and Ales seems to do alot of the work himself and is not really
office bound. When we went to collect the glider, it wasnt quite
ready so wwe had to wait for about 12 hours while they finished it.
Ales and his staff worked really hard that day until very late at
night to get it finished. Overall, I am really pleased with the
refinish however, the wings have discoloured slightly and we are
currently waiting for a response from AMS Flight as to what they are
going to do about it under their 2 year warranty.
We are also still waiting for the new instrument panel to be returned
to us. Ales said he was going to try and modify it when it originally
didnt fit the glider.
I do not wish to influence people but all I would say about AMS Flight
is, they seem to do a good job, we paid all the money up front for the
regel due to VAT issues in the UK (to save money), and the job was
done when they said it would be. I cannot explain the communication
issue but Ales does speak good english so I would suggest telephoning
him rather than email!
Good luck
Regards
Terry Hatton
VH_VH
>
> - Show quoted text -
I much appreciate your feedback in this thread. It adds some necessary
balance to the issue. I am certainly not questioning the quality of
the work that AMS-Flight does. The club I belong to owns a DG-505
manufactured by AMS-Flight and I must say that she is a very fine
machine.
From what you described, you had the good fortune to be present, in
person, whilst the glider was finished. The tyranny of distance did
not give me that luxury. And the tyranny of distance has made it
difficult to get my money back. I have made numerous phone calls, sent
even more e-mails, and have only been able to speak with Ales on a few
occasions, the outcome of which had been less than satisfactory. I
have to give credit to Marinka though. She seemed like such a lovely
lady who got stuck with the hard questions and handled it like a
champion. Sadly there has only been an answering machine lately. I
think the bottom line here is that Ales needs to come to the
realisation that he is running a business and a business cannot
continue with a growing queue of dissatisfied customers. Taking from
one of your points, he is probably far too much ‘hands-on’.
I wish you luck with your warranty and instrument panel. I sincerely
hope that you do not end up in the same situation.
Juan
problems, locate an attorney in Slovenia and arrange for legal
pressure to be put on the company. If Slovenia is part of the EU there
are other routes that can be explored.
VH_VH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Juan. That is actually in the plan however it is a last resort.
I am trying to give Ales and AMS-Flight every opportunity to resolve
this but if necessary, I will take court action. I personally hope it
does not come to that. It is a sad statement about a company when that
company shows such disregard for its customers that the customer has
no other option but to go down that path.
Regent
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
Hi,
I am also a victim of Ales Cebavs from AMS-Flight: 4.300 euros.
The technique is always the same: send the money, you will receive
your parts in 4 weeks, AND YOU NEVER RECEIVE YOUR ORDER ! You send e-
mails and telephone calls that he never returns. This has to come to
an end, and we have to stop Cebavs from continuing to defraud the
international gliding community. I already consulted a law firm from
the city where AMS is located, and I intend to stop this crook :
everybody interested to join the civil lawsuit, and also have Cebavs
arrested for international fraud, please contact me at my personnal e-
mail: rlab...@alumico.com
I am travelling regularly to Europe, and will make as many trips
as needed to Slovenia to see him convicted, and make sure that all his
victims are reimbursed.
Some owners of CARAT motorgliders are devastated to hear about
Cebavs criminal conduct ( go to CARAT MOTORGLIDER yahoo group), and
Cebavs silence speaks for itself.
He had the balls to write to me today that my order was ready,
but that he won't send it because of what I wrote on CARAT yahoogroup:
despicable !
Regent Labrosse
>On 2 nov, 05:21, VH_VH wrote:
>> On Oct 28, 3:10=A0am, Juan wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > You could always band together with other people who have had
similar
>> > problems, locate an attorney in Slovenia and arrange for legal
>> > pressure to be put on the company. If Slovenia is part of the EU
there
>> > are other routes that can be explored.
>>
>>
>> > > I am making this posting in the hope of saving someone from going
>> > > through what I have been going through and to ensure that it gets
>the
>> > > coverage it deserves amongst the gliding community. It revolves
>t
>> > > badly on those companies listed as distributors on the AMS-Flight
>> > > website. They are independent of AMS-Flight and I am certain they
>e
>> > > their own issues with Ales.
>>
>> > > It would be very interesting to hear from others who have had a
>n
>> > > with Ales and AMS-Flight. If there are enough of us then maybe we
>can
>> > > bring some collective pressure to bear, whether that be in the
form
>f
>> > > a class action lawsuit or simply reporting these illegal and
>criminal
>> > > activities to the Slovenian authorities. In any case, I will
>continue
>> > > to fight to have Ales return my money. As an individual I
certainly
>> > > cannot afford to ignore someone who is effectively attempting to
>l
>> > > over AUD$5000 from me.
>>
>> > > Bob- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Thanks Juan. That is actually in the plan however it is a last resort.
>> I am trying to give Ales and AMS-Flight every opportunity to resolve
>> this but if necessary, I will take court action. I personally hope it
>> does not come to that. It is a sad statement about a company when that
>> company shows such disregard for its customers that the customer has
>> no other option but to go down that path.- Masquer le texte des
messages
>pr=E9c=E9dents -
>>
>> - Afficher le texte des messages pr=E9c=E9dents -
>
>Hi,
> I am also a victim of Ales Cebavs from AMS-Flight: 4.300 euros.
>The technique is always the same: send the money, you will receive
>your parts in 4 weeks, AND YOU NEVER RECEIVE YOUR ORDER ! You send e-
>mails and telephone calls that he never returns. This has to come to
>an end, and we have to stop Cebavs from continuing to defraud the
>international gliding community. I already consulted a law firm from
>the city where AMS is located, and I intend to stop this crook :
>everybody interested to join the civil lawsuit, and also have Cebavs
>arrested for international fraud, please contact me at my personnal e-
>mail: rlab...@alumico.com
> I am travelling regularly to Europe, and will make as many trips
>as needed to Slovenia to see him convicted, and make sure that all his
>victims are reimbursed.
> Some owners of CARAT motorgliders are devastated to hear about
>Cebavs criminal conduct ( go to CARAT MOTORGLIDER yahoo group), and
>Cebavs silence speaks for itself.
> He had the balls to write to me today that my order was ready,
>but that he won't send it because of what I wrote on CARAT yahoogroup:
>despicable !
>
It is now clear that chances to get our parts or our money back are
near zero, since AMS-FLIGHT is not in business anymore: the plant has been
closed, all employees have been laid- off, and Ales Cebavs is now living
from small repairs that he is doing by himself. We are in contact with
slovenian authorities, and intend to continue our action to press
criminal charges against Cebavs.
VH_VH
moved out of the Elan factory. The recent announcement by Ales that he
is moving into a new 2600 square metre factory has only served to
increase my cynical viewpoint of this unscrupulous person.
Given the fact that AMS-Flight is in a less than ideal financial
situation, the question begs asking how Ales has managed to secure a
2600 square metre factory. He gives his new address as Airfield Lesce-
Bled, Begunjska c. 12, SI-4248 Lesce (geographic location is
E14.17212, N46.36163). A check of the address indicates the occupant
to be a company named Abadon K&L d.o.o., a financial services firm. I
contacted Abadon K&L d.o.o. and oddly enough they are still at the
same address. When I asked if they knew Ales they indicated that they
did not. Ales must be keeping a very low profile in such a small
building (only about 15 metres by 15 metres).
I am probably not alone in thinking this, but I do find it very
curious that after 10 days since posting his new address in the Yahoo
Carat motorglider forum, Ales has still not provided phone and fax
details and has not updated his website. For such a significant move
there has been precious little information. One would think that any
normal company would take care of these very important details long
before the actual move.
There is no question at all that the factory would not and could not
be located at the Lesce-Bled airfield. Maybe Ales would like to
provide his customers with more information on the location of his new
factory. I am certain that they would all be very interested to know
seeing as their aircraft orders and parts will supposedly be built
there. At the same time he might want to explain why he has not yet
returned my prepayment as he agreed to back in June.
VH_VH
at the absurdity of this situation. Today I received a registered
letter from Ales. The content was an invoice for a quantity of 1 as
follows, and I quote “causing the business damage, knowing this while
AMS Flight d.o.o. informed you about so baned, but continued whatever
warning noctice received, operated to prejudice of a claim, internet –
discussion groups AMS Flight not allowed actions, public driven out,
partial charge”.
I certainly do not recall placing an order for that. What I did order
back in January 2010 was an horizontal stabiliser for an LS3. Ales
agreed to refund my money in June, and in August after getting no
further response, I made a posting in a forum as a last resort.
Continued refusal resulted in a more pointed posting in mid-October
which is seeing others come forward with similar stories about Ales,
AMS Flight, and how they are having their money taken and nothing
delivered.
Now interesting enough, the invoice is for the exact amount of my
prepayment, €3.165,27. So I would like to thank Ales for this official
document as it is proof that he acknowledges the amount that he owes
me. What he is doing is trying to wipe that debt from his books. What
he should have done is invoiced me for the AMS Flight office moving
expenses. That would probably have been closer to the truth. Ales, you
continue to over-estimate your own intelligence. I can guarantee that
you will see this document again and not in the scenario that you
would be hoping for. The facts speak for themselves. Once and for all,
would you just do the right thing and return my money.
Regent Labrosse
will receive the same kind of invoice in the next days. But it won't be
enough to avoid the investigation of the Slovenian authorities .
As a member of the European Union, I am convinced that Slovenia will not
tolerate these fraudulent actions committed on an international level by
one of their citizens.
There are many barriers, distance, language, and it will take time, but
justice will be done.
At 05:24 27 November 2010, VH_VH wrote:
>Here is a story that will both amuse you and make you shake your head
>at the absurdity of this situation. Today I received a registered
>letter from Ales. The content was an invoice for a quantity of 1 as
>follows, and I quote =93causing the business damage, knowing this while
>AMS Flight d.o.o. informed you about so baned, but continued whatever
>warning noctice received, operated to prejudice of a claim, internet =96
>discussion groups AMS Flight not allowed actions, public driven out,
>partial charge=94.
>
>I certainly do not recall placing an order for that. What I did order
>back in January 2010 was an horizontal stabiliser for an LS3. Ales
>agreed to refund my money in June, and in August after getting no
>further response, I made a posting in a forum as a last resort.
>Continued refusal resulted in a more pointed posting in mid-October
>which is seeing others come forward with similar stories about Ales,
>AMS Flight, and how they are having their money taken and nothing
>delivered.
>
>Now interesting enough, the invoice is for the exact amount of my
>prepayment, =803.165,27. So I would like to thank Ales for this official
VH_VH
weeks since his magnificent announcement of the new 2600sqm factory
and Ales has still not come forward with any responses, neither to my
recent e-mails nor to the postings of others. Quite a great indication
of how much he values his customers and how much bulls__t he is
prepared to dish out to them. As I mentioned to Ales in a recent e-
mail, silence is considered acceptance of the statements and facts.
Even the AMS-Flight website has still not been updated with the new
address and contact details and it would not surprise me in the least
if it goes down sometime very soon.
So Ales, what is going on? I believe that there are many people that
are asking themselves the same question and wanting an answer. Your
only option is to settle the accounts with the people you owe because
we will not go away. Instead of taunting your customers with
photographs of parts and offering to let them see and touch them,
maybe you should consider actually delivering them, especially since
delivery was part of the payment and the original terms of contract.
The Ostrich is not native to Slovenia so get your head out of the sand
and start communicating!
VH_VH
Case 1:
February 2009 – Ordered and paid for a canopy gas strut modification for a DG-505 and a tail skid for an LS4 (€639).
November 19, 2010 – Ales sends e-mail to customer stating “Can you inform the gliding club that we will finally send them ordered parts. Inside the coming December.”
February 2011 – Still no delivery after 24 months!!!!
Case 2:
May 2010 – Left and right ailerons and aluminium pushrod ordered and paid for LS4-B (€4785). Delivery terms 4-5 weeks.
May to October 2010 – Many e-mails requesting update and status.
February 2011 – Still no delivery after 9 months, numerous e-mails, and childish taunts from Ales (November 2010) that they are built but he will not deliver due to going public.
My Case:
January 2010 – Horizontal stabiliser for LS3 ordered and paid for (€3165). Delivery terms 3-4 weeks.
March 2010 – Ales supposedly builds an horizontal stabiliser for an LS4.
June 2010 – Final agreement by Ales to refund my money.
June to August 2010 – Numerous unanswered e-mails requesting return of my money
August 2010 – first forum posting made in the hope of getting Ales’ attention. A small success!
October 2010 – initiated forum thread with full details and found other people who had been ripped-off (see two of these cases above).
December 2010 – Ales advises that court proceedings will be required to recover my money and that no further correspondence will be accepted.
February 2011 – Still no refund
So here you have three examples of how AMS-Flight and Ales Cebavs in particular treats his customers with complete contempt and disregard. There are more. His last excuse for the delays was the effort in moving his factory and office and yet again, he has not followed through on his commitments to deliver old orders. What is his excuse now?
I have current information that Ales is a ‘one man band’ with no employees. This has been the situation since his office move. How he expects to run his business, build his Carat orders, support his Carat customer base, manufacture LS parts, or supply anything else is a mystery. DG Flugzeugbau no longer does business with AMS-Flight so I would say that the LS side of his business has dried up. In spite of this, I would bet that he continues to take orders and money from people.
I would strongly suggest that you do not do business directly with AMS-Flight and Ales Cebavs in particular. Go through a dealer if you must and do not provide any funds up front that are accessible to either AMS-Flight or Ales. There are options when doing bank transfers where the bank will not release the funds to the target account until given the approval. If Ales does not accept these terms then take your business elsewhere.
This story is not over yet…
Regent Labrosse
Cebavs criminal conduct, and his web site must continue to bring him other
victims every week.
At 11:07 08 February 2011, VH_VH wrote:
>Time for an update but first a summary:
>
>Case 1:
>February 2009 =96 Ordered and paid for a canopy gas strut modification
for
>=
>a DG-505 and a tail skid for an LS4 (=80639).
>November 19, 2010 =96 Ales sends e-mail to customer stating =93Can you
>info=
>rm the gliding club that we will finally send them ordered parts. Inside
>th=
>e coming December.=94
>February 2011 =96 Still no delivery after 24 months!!!!
>
>Case 2:
>May 2010 =96 Left and right ailerons and aluminium pushrod ordered and
>paid=
> for LS4-B (=804785). Delivery terms 4-5 weeks.
>May to October 2010 =96 Many e-mails requesting update and status.
>February 2011 =96 Still no delivery after 9 months, numerous e-mails,
and
>c=
>hildish taunts from Ales (November 2010) that they are built but he will
>no=
>t deliver due to going public.
>
>My Case:
>January 2010 =96 Horizontal stabiliser for LS3 ordered and paid for
>(=80316=
>5). Delivery terms 3-4 weeks.
>March 2010 =96 Ales supposedly builds an horizontal stabiliser for an
LS4.
>June 2010 =96 Final agreement by Ales to refund my money.
>June to August 2010 =96 Numerous unanswered e-mails requesting return of
>my=
> money
>August 2010 =96 first forum posting made in the hope of getting Ales=92
>att=
>ention. A small success!
>October 2010 =96 initiated forum thread with full details and found
other
>p=
>eople who had been ripped-off (see two of these cases above).
>December 2010 =96 Ales advises that court proceedings will be required
to
>r=
>ecover my money and that no further correspondence will be accepted.
>February 2011 =96 Still no refund
>
>
>So here you have three examples of how AMS-Flight and Ales Cebavs in
>partic=
>ular treats his customers with complete contempt and disregard. There
are
>m=
>ore. His last excuse for the delays was the effort in moving his factory
>an=
>d office and yet again, he has not followed through on his commitments
to
>d=
>eliver old orders. What is his excuse now?
>
>I have current information that Ales is a =91one man band=92 with no
>employ=
>ees. This has been the situation since his office move. How he expects
to
>r=
>un his business, build his Carat orders, support his Carat customer
base,
>m=
>anufacture LS parts, or supply anything else is a mystery. DG
Flugzeugbau
>n=
>o longer does business with AMS-Flight so I would say that the LS side
of
>h=
>is business has dried up. In spite of this, I would bet that he
continues
>t=
>o take orders and money from people.
>
>I would strongly suggest that you do not do business directly with
>AMS-Flig=
>ht and Ales Cebavs in particular. Go through a dealer if you must and do
>no=
>t provide any funds up front that are accessible to either AMS-Flight or
>Al=
>es. There are options when doing bank transfers where the bank will not
>rel=
>ease the funds to the target account until given the approval. If Ales
>does=
> not accept these terms then take your business elsewhere.
>
>This story is not over yet=85
>
Westbender
Boy, you must be pretty low on the ladder if even Weber is too
legitimate to do business with you...(rimshot)
VH_VH
I am firmly of the belief that Ales has well and truly lost the plot.
The thread regarding the LS4 asset sell-off can be found here:
Title: AMS selling LS4 package
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/6IBsMVmJriw
VH_VH
jsbrake
flagged for abuse? Obviously, there must be some mechanisim... what
is it?
VH_VH
Peter Scholz
> You will see it when you come to this topic without signing in. At the top, the entire topic has been flagged for abuse and my individual messages have also been flagged. I managed to unflag the other messages but could not change my own.
This seems to be a unique feature of googlegroups. Go and get yourself a
proper newsreader and you'll never be bothered again with flags someone
else is setting on behalf of big brother...
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE