Glider operations at controlled airports
Dody
airport in Soaring magazine about five (ten?) years ago. Does anyone know
which issue? Thanks.
Jack Wyman
Tom Seim
out of Hailey, ID, for about 15 years. Hailey had a control tower for
the last five, or so, years. Hailey serves Sun Valley, which probably
has the world's largest concentration of private jets. We towed off of
(and usually landed on) the parallel taxiway. The control tower
actually simplified operations. I remember one time, before the tower,
landing behind a Cessna that was on base. With the runway disappearing
behind me I finally had to tell the Cessna that I needed to land ahead
of him. No problem, he said; he will orbit while I landed. After I was
clear of the runway a Citation came in behind me; his base leg was the
next valley about 20 miles out!
Tom Seim
Richland, WA
Shirley
>I remember one time, before the tower,
>landing behind a Cessna that was on base.
>With the runway disappearing behind me I
>finally had to tell the Cessna that I needed
>to land ahead of him. No problem, he said; he
>will orbit while I landed. After I was clear
>of the runway a Citation came in behind me;
>his base leg was the next valley about 20
>miles out!
... and I thought being in the pattern with other gliders was unnerving!
BTIZ
repairs etc. The first reassembly, W&B and test flying was at Fox Field in
Lancaster CA. With a telephone to the tower prior to pulling out of the
hanger we coordinated our operations.
Push out onto the runway and go, radio calls handled by the tow plane, wait
for cleared to takeoff call. It was a very windy day, all pattern tows. Stay
on Tow until tower cleared to land clearance is received. Tow and Glider now
make their own radio calls.
WFJ field had new "high speed" exits off the main runway, glider planned his
landing to land and roll into a high speed exit to clear, worked out great,
the exit was into the wind. WJF operations can be viewed at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~vjkiesow/RollOut.htm
We also run operations at our own field with a temp tower on Air show days,
the temp tower is on the "glider side" buy the club house, two runways are
in use. And it is briefed to the tower operators, "When a glider calls on
down wind, he owns the runway." The first year tower tried to sequence me #2
behind traffic I could not see, I was on base leg at the time. A Simple
"UNABLE" call cleared things up, and apologies from the tower chief.
"Dody" <do...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b5kurb$inb$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Mark Grubb
several decades and I flew for the operation for 5 summers. Aspen is
a very busy controlled airports in a relatively constricted mountain
valley at high density altitude. While the weahter and terrain made
it a bit sporty at times, I never perceived the tower as a negative
issue. Like others have stated, the tower generally made life much
easier for all concerned. Unlike other locations, gliders were
contractually obligated to sequence in with the other traffic (Lears,
G-IV's, Convairs, etc). It worked really well especially if the
gliderpilots were being professional, thinking WAY ahead, and could
make repeated precise spotlandings/rollouts.
If everyone (Glider pilots, tug pilots, controllers, and airport
management) behaves like professionals and want this to work, it is a
nonissue. Add a single bad attitude, inexact pilotage, or poor radio
systems and the whole thing becomes very, very difficult. Right
Dieter? :)
soarski
Riiiight!
Now semi retired, Had to go to selflaunchers and taxi almost a mile to
the take off position. When I still had the Grob Twin III SL, I would
taxi fast enough so I had aileron control for wings level high speed
taxi! One day I had a Citation ahead of me on the taxiway and the
Lady in the tower saw, that I had to slow down with my wing dropping,
she says: Citation so and so could you please speed up your taxi,
aircraft behind you needs higher speed!
Towers naturally monitor us and often admire us for our skills!
Dieter
Stewart Kissel
with very similar conditions-Telluride is just down
the street and has a towplane being used on occasion.
Lots of bizjets, commuter flights, density altitude,
*interesting* approaches and departures and no decent
rope break alternatives. And that 150' dip in the
middle of the runway. On a hot day behind the C150
it is possible to depart from the airport below field
elevation down in the canyon grinding around looking
for thermals.
At 21:00 26 March 2003, Soarski wrote:
>mark...@aol.com (Mark Grubb) wrote in message news:...
Martin Hellman
controlled airports. Motor gliders and self launchers, of course, can
operate with much less difficulty, but there is an issue there on
which I'd appreciate any input that people have: prohibitions against
glider landings. I operate a Stemme out of Hayward, CA, and before
that had a Super Dimona (now Katana Xtreme) out of Palo Alto, CA. Both
towers were very helpful and, when conditions allowed (which is almost
always at Hayward, luckily!), have no problem with glider landings. I
have a friend with a Stemme who operates out of a class C airport and,
after they offered him a glider landing on a quiet day and saw how
easily it could be handled, have allowed it even when they are busier.
But Livermore, just to the east and San Carlos, across the Bay,
prohibit glider landings. At San Carlos, it's the airport manager who
objects, while at Livermore, it was the tower manager (at least that
was the situation as of five or so years ago, the last time I dealt
with Livermore - could be different now).
Unfortuantely I have to bring my plane to San Carlos 2-3 times a year
for service, and glider landings are actually safer in my ship
(there's little prop clearance and a number of props have been dinged
on landing; also I land as a glider 99% of the time, so an engine on
landing is "different" and adds aspects - sounds, thrust, etc. - that
I'm not used to, making much of my experience useless). So I've talked
to the airport manager at San Carlos several times, but always get a
"No, that would add too much danger." type response. One time, when
the cross winds were forecast to be moderately strong, making a wheel
landing much safer than a three point, I talked to him ahead of time
and suggested I keep the engine on until on short final - when it
seemed like his concerns should be gone - but, again, he said no which
flabbergasted me. A pretty clear case of prejudice with no real basis.
I wrote to the SSA and AOPA, hoping for some support, but that was
shortly before 9/11, so it's not surprising that I've heard nothing.
They've been busy with bigger fish to fry.
I'd be interested in hearing other people's experiences and also if
anyone can point to someplace in the FARs that back up my suspicion
that these prohibitions are illegal, not to mention unsafe.
Thanks.
Martin
soarski
Hi Martin!
I understand your predicament. I rather land my Stemme in Wheel
Landing configuration. I do, off and on, practice three points, to be
able to land at very short fields etc. With decent 3 point landings,
there should not be a problem with the prop. I do also practice, to
always roll of the runway power off. Then I do turn on the engine for
a long taxi. We have many controllers, I think some of them do not
even know I land power off.
Legally we are GLIDERS and we probably have the right of way, engine
on or off?
Listening to the tower I always try to position myself in the traffic
so it does not matter. I wonder what this airport would or could do,
if you land power off? .... and keep doing it? I have no problem on
my busy airport!
Dieter
Tom Serkowski
Fly in, identify yourself as 'Stemme XXXX' and don't mention that the
engine's not running. Unless you get vectored all over the place or
asked to fly downwind some horrendous distance, things should go just
fine. After touchdown, start the engine and taxi in. If the tower's
not watching closely, they may not even notice the engine wasn't
running in the pattern.
In a pure sailplane, I'd possibly do the same thing except set myself
up to use a high speed turnoff as my landing area, then coast to the
edge of a taxiway in order to stay clear of any traffic.
This boils down to the issue of asking an ignorant authority for
permission to do something it's not familiar with. The easy answer is
no. If you know you're in the right and are capable of making the
operation safely and legally, then just do it. Once you've
demonstrated it's safe, etc, you may get the permission needed for
later operations.
-Tom
hel...@stanford.edu (Martin Hellman) wrote in message news:<45cf32b4.03032...@posting.google.com>...
> Everything so far on this thread has been about tow operations at
> controlled airports. Motor gliders and self launchers, of course, can
> operate with much less difficulty, but there is an issue there on
> which I'd appreciate any input that people have: prohibitions against
> glider landings. I operate a Stemme out of Hayward, CA, and before
...snip...
Bill Daniels
"Tom Serkowski" <goog...@serkowski.com> wrote in message
news:2c5506af.03032...@posting.google.com...
> Why do you need to muddy the issue by asking?
>
> Fly in, identify yourself as 'Stemme XXXX' and don't mention that the
> engine's not running. Unless you get vectored all over the place or
> asked to fly downwind some horrendous distance, things should go just
> fine. After touchdown, start the engine and taxi in. If the tower's
> not watching closely, they may not even notice the engine wasn't
> running in the pattern.
>
> In a pure sailplane, I'd possibly do the same thing except set myself
> up to use a high speed turnoff as my landing area, then coast to the
> edge of a taxiway in order to stay clear of any traffic.
>
> This boils down to the issue of asking an ignorant authority for
> permission to do something it's not familiar with. The easy answer is
> no. If you know you're in the right and are capable of making the
> operation safely and legally, then just do it. Once you've
> demonstrated it's safe, etc, you may get the permission needed for
> later operations.
>
> -Tom
>
A funny and true exchange with Colorado Springs Approach:
COS Approach: "Piper 38 Juliet, we show you 300 feet above your assigned
altitude."
38J: "That's funny, Springs Approach, I show you 300 feet below your
assigned elevation".
COS Approach: "Uh..stand by 38J..."
COS Approach: "Sorry,38J, we just reset the altimeter data on our radar -
you're fine.
Background: Approach radar reads the Mode C transponder altitude data which
is referenced to the 29.92" datum. This data must then be corrected with
the current station altimeter setting to get the true altitude of a Mode C
equipped aircraft. Usually, this is automatic, but COS is a combined
military/civilian field with ATC handled by the USAF. Their equipment at
the time of this incident required manual setting of the radar with the
local altimeter by USAF ATC personnel. They sometimes forget or mess up
the setting - it pays to be alert.
I had just flown through Pueblo, CO airspace 30 NM from COS and knew I had a
current altimeter setting and was exactly on my assigned altitude.
Bill Daniels
Brent Sullivan "SAM"
being inconspicuous, but...
"Martin Hellman" <hel...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:45cf32b4.03032...@posting.google.com...