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Schleicher K 13 aerobatic approval
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James Rizzo Esq
Dec 20, 2011, 9:33:00 AM12/20/11
to
We are examining the Type Certiifcate for the K13. The original indicates
aerobatics including spins "not approved".
in 1967 Schleicher issued an AD approving semi aerobatics and spins, and
printed a modified page 22 to the flight manual. Does this automatically
modify the type certificate? Is there some authority I am not aware of? We
woud like to instruct spin entries in our machine, but are uncertain of the
legal status.
jim Rizzo
aerobatics including spins "not approved".
in 1967 Schleicher issued an AD approving semi aerobatics and spins, and
printed a modified page 22 to the flight manual. Does this automatically
modify the type certificate? Is there some authority I am not aware of? We
woud like to instruct spin entries in our machine, but are uncertain of the
legal status.
jim Rizzo
Croft Brown
Dec 20, 2011, 11:01:04 AM12/20/11
to
Schliecher issued TN4 in 1969.
http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/index_e.htm. Click TN/AD then scroll
down to K13 and then down to TN4. You can also look at all the other TN's
with the overview link.
The change of page 22 in the FM and the notification of change on page 2 in
the FM allows you to perform semi-aerobatics in the UK.
In the wording of TN4, it ammends the Type Certificate no. ASK 13 L-267.
I can email you the relavant docs if you need them.
BTW, I have been a member of my UK gliding club for 15 yrs. We use 2xK13
for all our training, including spin and other aerobatic manouvers.
Great fun!!
Croft Brown
http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/index_e.htm. Click TN/AD then scroll
down to K13 and then down to TN4. You can also look at all the other TN's
with the overview link.
The change of page 22 in the FM and the notification of change on page 2 in
the FM allows you to perform semi-aerobatics in the UK.
In the wording of TN4, it ammends the Type Certificate no. ASK 13 L-267.
I can email you the relavant docs if you need them.
BTW, I have been a member of my UK gliding club for 15 yrs. We use 2xK13
for all our training, including spin and other aerobatic manouvers.
Great fun!!
Croft Brown
Croft Brown
Dec 20, 2011, 11:22:41 AM12/20/11
to
Schliecher introduced TN4 in 1969. This changed the Type Certificate to
allow the glider to be used for Semi aerobatic flying.
On the Schliecher web site, if you go to TN/AD's then scroll down to K13
and then to TN4 it shows the TN and it is down loadable. There is also an
overview list of all TN's issued.
I started gliding 15 yrs ago and the club had and still has 2x K13's. They
are used for training in all aspects of glider flying, including
semi-aerobatic manouvers.
Great fun.
Croft
If you want the files, I can email them to you.
(If this posts twice, I apologise)
At 14:33 20 December 2011, James Rizzo Esq wrote:
allow the glider to be used for Semi aerobatic flying.
On the Schliecher web site, if you go to TN/AD's then scroll down to K13
and then to TN4 it shows the TN and it is down loadable. There is also an
overview list of all TN's issued.
I started gliding 15 yrs ago and the club had and still has 2x K13's. They
are used for training in all aspects of glider flying, including
semi-aerobatic manouvers.
Great fun.
Croft
If you want the files, I can email them to you.
(If this posts twice, I apologise)
At 14:33 20 December 2011, James Rizzo Esq wrote:
Mike the Strike
Dec 20, 2011, 11:45:28 AM12/20/11
to
received all of my instruction in this model in the 1980's. Standard
instruction in our club at the time required a student to experience
spin entry from several different attitudes as well as recovery from a
fully developed spin after at least two turns! Our club was run by
folks, including ex-pat Germans, who were sticklers in observing
rules, so it is inconceivable that the K-13 was not certified for
these manoevers.
Local certification should permit semi-aerobatics, but you should
check this. As these gliders are now rather old, I would also
suggest checking the aircraft thoroughly for any possible weakness or
corrosion. There have been a few airframe issues over the years that
I am aware of.
Mike
James Rizzo Esq
Dec 20, 2011, 2:43:02 PM12/20/11
to
Thanks for teh replies. Amanufacturer can modify a type certificate? forgot
to mention Im in the US too. have aninquiry into the FAA local office. I
assume they will give me the straight poop.
Jim
"Mike the Strike" <Strin...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1b4dd5cd-0568-4c85...@n39g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
to mention Im in the US too. have aninquiry into the FAA local office. I
assume they will give me the straight poop.
Jim
"Mike the Strike" <Strin...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1b4dd5cd-0568-4c85...@n39g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
BruceGreeff
Dec 21, 2011, 2:55:58 AM12/21/11
to
My 2c worth of logical deduction - tell me if I am wrong.
Worldwide aviation law is all based on the Chicago accord, and
subsequent ICAO standards. There are national differences, but the
principles generally apply the same in every country.
If a type is type accepted - then the manual is part of the acceptance.
The type acceptance is what he national CAA use to determine what is
permissible and what is not.
There are two ways to operate a type accepted aircraft - Type certified
or non-type certified.
In either case the national Civil Aviation Authority generally applies
the Type accepted manual as the reference for what is or is not
permitted operationally.
If there is a substantial change due to a TN, the national CAA may elect
to re-certify the airframe.(different type certificate, not different
type acceptance)
For optional changes, and especially where the type has been
re-certified it is obviously important that your manual refers to the
correct type certificate for it's contents, and the operating limits you
apply.
The approved manual specifies what manoeuvres are permitted.
The manufacturer occasionally issues mandatory modifications to the
operating limits, and procedures.
These are (surprise) mandatory to apply. They change the manual and the
approved operations for the type.
If the manual is changed by the manufacturer then the change applies
everywhere the type is approved, and affects and modifies the type as
certified.
Logically, it follows that - in most of the civilised world - since 1967
it has not only been delightful and instructive to spin, loop and do
gentle chandelles in the K13 - it has also been legal. (assuming that
you are complying with the other rules about height AGL, and speed and
keeping clear of "stuff")
Please do not restrict your activities to teaching incipient spins. The
K13 will spin in more ways than most and recovers easily and honestly.
Ideal to teach and practice safe gyrating.
Bruce
--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771
Worldwide aviation law is all based on the Chicago accord, and
subsequent ICAO standards. There are national differences, but the
principles generally apply the same in every country.
If a type is type accepted - then the manual is part of the acceptance.
The type acceptance is what he national CAA use to determine what is
permissible and what is not.
There are two ways to operate a type accepted aircraft - Type certified
or non-type certified.
In either case the national Civil Aviation Authority generally applies
the Type accepted manual as the reference for what is or is not
permitted operationally.
If there is a substantial change due to a TN, the national CAA may elect
to re-certify the airframe.(different type certificate, not different
type acceptance)
For optional changes, and especially where the type has been
re-certified it is obviously important that your manual refers to the
correct type certificate for it's contents, and the operating limits you
apply.
The approved manual specifies what manoeuvres are permitted.
The manufacturer occasionally issues mandatory modifications to the
operating limits, and procedures.
These are (surprise) mandatory to apply. They change the manual and the
approved operations for the type.
If the manual is changed by the manufacturer then the change applies
everywhere the type is approved, and affects and modifies the type as
certified.
Logically, it follows that - in most of the civilised world - since 1967
it has not only been delightful and instructive to spin, loop and do
gentle chandelles in the K13 - it has also been legal. (assuming that
you are complying with the other rules about height AGL, and speed and
keeping clear of "stuff")
Please do not restrict your activities to teaching incipient spins. The
K13 will spin in more ways than most and recovers easily and honestly.
Ideal to teach and practice safe gyrating.
Bruce
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771
Burt Compton - Marfa
Dec 21, 2011, 10:16:27 AM12/21/11
to
On Dec 20, 1:43 pm, "James Rizzo Esq" <law...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
have an inquiry into the FAA local office. I
lines.
I hope you get the answer you are looking for!
Please let us know.
have an inquiry into the FAA local office. I
> assume they will give me the straight poop.
>
I started to comment, but I won't . . . there are just too many punch
>
lines.
I hope you get the answer you are looking for!
Please let us know.
ray conlon
Dec 21, 2011, 8:21:06 PM12/21/11
to
aircraft certification, but he is right, the possible punch lines to
this are endless.....one could be them searching for their posterior
in a phone booth with a mirror/flashlight/directions and both hands..
James Rizzo Esq
Dec 29, 2011, 11:02:28 AM12/29/11
to
Group members;
I have been directed to "Order 8620.2A" Which provides that a Type
Certiifcate is not law, in paragraph 7. The regs are law, not the TCDS.
They provide that (14CFR 91.19a) " an aircraft shall be flown within the
limits specified in the approved flight manual, markings and placards or as
otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of
registry. Without 91.9 the TCDS requirement to comply with operating
limitations would not be enforceable."
Jim Rizzo
"ray conlon" <rfc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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