Ventus 2b vs ASW27b ..Which is the better / nicer aircraft?

[Nick Kennedy]

Hypothetical situation:
Same condition
Same trailer
Same instruments and accessories
Which is the better ship for strong western thermal racing conditions?
Why?
Thanks in advance for those in the know!
T

[Steve Koerner]

The 27 has greater wing loading. It's a little faster in strong western conditions. Here's that same topic from 2009: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/ooy3UgY1amI

[mevau...@gmail.com]

I found myself faced with the same question three years ago between the Ventus 2b and the ASW27b. I had several friends with the ASW27, so I was inclined to buy a 27 too. After sitting in both cockpits, I found the Ventus 2b to be much more comfortable for my size - 6' 1" and 185lbs. I had much more leg room in the Ventus 2b and actually had to pull the pedals towards me for a comfortable fit. In the 27, I had to push the pedals out all the way and still couldn't extend my legs completely. So my decision was easy strictly based on comfort for long flights.

Michael 8U

[Nick Kennedy]

These ships are getting along in age.
Which ship has proven to have the more durable factory gelcoat?
AD's?

[Nick Kennedy]

Over a Beer ( surprising huh ) with Mocho he mentioned the 27B water ballast tanks. He said if they get a leak you have to tear into the wing to fix them.
Are they prone to leaking?

[Nick Kennedy]

A question for Hank Nixon and other refinishers.
How much in 2020 to drop one of these planes off at your shop and get it Completely refinished? All the extras- total price ?
Thanks in advance!

[Nick Kennedy]

Opps
I should have said:
How much is a refinish in Poly?

[markm...@gmail.com]

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 8:00:45 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Over a Beer ( surprising huh ) with Mocho he mentioned the 27B water ballast tanks. He said if they get a leak you have to tear into the wing to fix them.
> Are they prone to leaking?

Nick- My memory of that conversation (and those beers) is that I said the Ventus tanks sometimes need that kind of repair. I know of two Ventuses that had to have leaky tanks fixed. Never heard of the problem with the ASW-27.

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

A good bet is to join a couple others and send to M&D or one of the other resources in Europe. I understand cost is about $30,000, plus portion of shipping.
I don't know who in the US is actively seeking refinish work. Maybe Williams in CA, Fidel in NM.
Ball park in the US is about $30K for the whole job if you can find an interested shop.
FWIW
UH

[JS]

Must have been more than a few beers. How unusual!
Had various problems with water ballast tanks and fittings in AS, SH, JS, LS. Tanks are really great - until they suck.
My input on the original question, I won't buy another side-hinge canopy (left over from the 70s). Not as user-friendly while rigging, putting stuff in the glider or getting in and out. Ask your reapair station how many Schempp canopy hinges they've fixed versus others.
Personally not keen on single-pin rigging either.
But if you're really after a Ventus 2, get a 2Cx so you won't later wish you did.
Jim

[JS]

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 8:37:17 AM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> Funny thing about that single pin rigging. When sliding a single-pin in on a SH I wish it had two pins. But when struggling to put two bunt end pins in an AS I sure miss the single pin.

Rolladen-Schneider knew how to make pins!
Using the Steve Bralla rigging aid Mark Mocho now sells, the 27/28/29 is easy.
Jim

[johnsin...@yahoo.com]

Nick,
Condition of the gelcoat is the ‘elephant in the room’ for most all ships offered. Paying 60K for 20 year old finish is questionable. My old LS-7 is up for sale and I have it on good report that it can be had for 35K! Easy flying machine and a good ship for western conditions. I flew my 1000K in her!
JJ

[Nick Kennedy]

JJ
How does that LS7 go against the -27 and V2 at gross wt?
I've got a nice LS3a now with all the bells and whistles.
I want to make a large step up.
Not a step to the side.
Merry Christmas to you and Pat!

[Mike C]

I had my LAK 17a refinished by Fidel last winter. His price is $30K and may vary a bit depending the square footage. Fidel is an artist and the finish is excellent.

Mike

[johnsin...@yahoo.com]

The 7 is standard class, so it’ll give it up to flapped ship above 70 knots. BTW, my old LS-6 will be on the market soon and it’s recently been refinished in AU.........,she’s been busted, but she runs with cherry birds! It was put back together by a Master Mechanic .....😇
JJ

[Papa3]

Recent conversation with a well-known commercial glider repair station owner.

Me: How much (ballpark) would it cost to get a 15M glider refinished in Poly. Assume standard crazing and no repairs required.

Him: Wouldn't touch it for less than $25K.

Me: That's not as bad as I thought.

Him: Yeah, well, as soon as you say that I'd raise the price to $30K. And I'd keep raising it until you give up. :-)

Our club is on our 3rd full refinish in the last 8 years (different ships). Even with a dozen or more skilled/semi-skilled helpers available, I'm getting kinda burned out. Couldn't imagine doing 3 or 4 per year!

P3

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

Flying/handling wise, western USA, 27. Loved it. For me, 6 feet, short legs long back 27 is perfect.

[heinz weissenbuehler]

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 5:49:05 PM UTC-5, Pasi Pulkkinen wrote:
> Flying/handling wise, western USA, 27. Loved it. For me, 6 feet, short legs long back 27 is perfect.

Ok , I never post , but..

Were you flying a DG 300? many many years ago on the Pine Nuts , and met up with a black GLIDER ?? Seem to remember your name :)

HW

[John McCullagh]

Some of the suggested costs from American contributors about refinishing
astonish me. I had the whole of my ASW27 refinished in PU by Aerospool in
Slovakia in 2017. They did a superb job at much much less than the numbers
being mentioned in this forum. Ask them for a quotation, probably for next
winter. They even drilled the 1500 holes to ensure the blown wing works
usual. It is still immaculate. I have no idea about the cost of
transporting a container from the USA with three gliders, but it is worth
looking into. (Transport wasn't that easy for me either: 1000miles each way
from UK twice. 10 days' driving!)

[Gary Wayland]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:33:12 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:

ASW27b is the best. Why? I own one!

I flew Captain McQuiggs 27 in 1999. I ordered one the following week. Nineteen years and one refinish and will never sell until I retire from gliders...

Light wings. Easy to rig on the ground. Plenty of room. A ton of room for all the stuff you don't need at the instrument panel...

We don't need no stinking 18 Meter wing! lol

ASW27b 27-148

"SQ"

[Charlie Quebec]

For the life of me I cannot see how a glider that costs 6 figures can need gelcoat replacement in 10-15 years when my 1980 DG still has perfect original gelcoat.
Frankly, I wouldn’t buy any glider with crap gelcoat that won’t last.

[Tony]

Cost of living difference between most of USA and Eastern europe is stark.

10 days to drive 1000 miles? 1000 miles is a 1-1.5 day effort here...

[Jim White]

At 02:19 24 December 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

>Thank President Eisenhower and his interstate
>
You have to factor in the English Channel, speed restrictions in Germany,
and a change of time zone. I did the journey with my 27 (which I intend to
be buried in!) 1100 miles each way. 2 stops on the way S including
Maastrict and Prague, a night in Previdsa and one stop (Regensburg) on the
way home. Altogether 10 days for two round trips.

Aerospool do a terrific job. Mine cost around 16,000 Euro in 2012 including
the fitting of a Strobl solar panel.

To address the first question: The 27 is better in strong conditions, the
Ventus is better when thermals < 2kts. Other than that it is a matter of
aesthetics.

Jim

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

There is a real opportunity in the US for a couple of motivated people to get into the refinishing business. The market is there.
The work is tedious, sometimes tiring, and messy.
I does not require a lot of capital to get started. It does need an experienced person to guide and advise until experience is gained.
The reward is the pleasure of making rats into beauties.
And it can supply an opportunity for steady work.
With the trend to finishing in AU the character of the work has changed a bit.
The removal part is the same as it was. There are some things that can help to shorten he time, but experience must be gained.
The prep for painting is longer than with polyester because the surface must be better. There isn't much to sand out flaws.
Spraying takes a bit more skill.
Sand out and polish is much quicker and easier.
It isn't hopeless, but it isn't trivial either.
UH

[osob...@gmail.com]

Nick- Give precedence to advice from pilots who have owned/flown both.

My 2 cents: Loved my 27B, never have flown the V2. With the 27B in western conditions, anything over a 3.33 knot day (standard IGC thermal at the time of design) is full ballast. Handling full is remarkably quick and it climbs really well at that high wing loading. It's also very easy to fly in good conditions as a flapped ship- you basically just have thermalling flap and running flap and it settles into correct speeds nicely without re-trimming in both modes. Knowing Gerhard Waibel and having worked with him some through the IGC Sailplane Development Panel, he did it all with lots of margin for error- outstanding engineering. Safe. Able to land really short in a jam and has very effective spoiler/landing flap combo. Good roll control until the end with the AS flap/aileron mixer.

Full of water, 27B performance is arguably still state of the art in 15m. Last year, at the South African Nationals where new JS-3 15m entries were the bulk of the racing class- 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place were all ASW-27's if memory serves right. Mostly strong conditions throughout the contest. I can't seem to find this year's results. I'm not anti-JS, I fly the JS1C-21M now and it is spectacular. But the 27B is an absolute bargain if you find a decent one at market pricing. It would scream over the San Juan's.

Another factor to consider: Differences between the 27 and 27B were small- going to a wet tank and taller winglets. With the V2, how many changes were made over the years to keep up? There are so many combinations of tails, fuselages, winglets, etc. that you can hardly keep track of all the different versions. Gerhard essentially got it right from the start, with the design only seeing minor tweaks over a very long and successful production run. A remarkable design when introduced, and still remarkable.

Gary Osoba

[Bob Youngblood]

I like my 27B, have a few flights in it and was happy with the handling and performance. Wish it was as comfortable as my ole ASW20L, now there was a great flying and riding ship. Wish my 27 had that same flap arrangement as the original 20, if you guys never flew a Jesus flapped ship then you are missing out. My wife also flies the 27 and likes it very much, although she like her ASW24. Bob

[jpg...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 5:46:16 PM UTC, osob...@gmail.com wrote:

> Full of water, 27B performance is arguably still state of the art in 15m. Last year, at the South African Nationals where new JS-3 15m entries were the bulk of the racing class- 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place were all ASW-27's if memory serves right. Mostly strong conditions throughout the contest. I can't seem to find this year's results. I'm not anti-JS, I fly the JS1C-21M now and it is spectacular. But the 27B is an absolute bargain if you find a decent one at market pricing. It would scream over the San Juan's.
>

> Gary Osoba

With respect Gary, I think your memory may have conflated the SA 2018 15m and 18m National results. There were no JS3s in the 15m class.

John Galloway

[Gary Wayland]

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 8:04:24 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> That extra 3 meters of wing in a 29 equals about 50 pounds more wieght per wing as compared to 27.

That will make a difference in putting your ship in the box after a long flight.

I hate to say, but im not in my thirties! Now I think about those things.

If I ever sell and stay in the hobby, I'll look for another Libelle! The homesick angel!

Soaring is more than L/D! The 27 has got to be the most comfortable glider I ever flew. No problem in flying 4 hours plus wearing a National 412 with the GRF under the butt. 6' at 200.

[osob...@gmail.com]

Thank you for correcting me, John. It's clear "my memory doesn't serve..."

-Gary

[Brett]

Minor correction - in the 2019 South African Nationals 15m class the
rest of the field were ASW20's and one LS6




--
Brett

[Glen Kelley]

I was part owner of a V2AX and currently own an ASW-27.

The V2AX was really too small in the cockpit for me, but once airborne the handling was so nice I didn't care. The V2 had the best slow speed handling and thermalling capability of anything I have flown. The flaperons gave excellent roll rate down to stall speed. Against that, landing flap is unimpressive compared to the -27. The 4 inch wheel and tost brake do not provide the ground clearance and stopping ability of the -27.

I can't compare the two with full water, although handling is excellent for both. Dry, on the ridge, the 27 is superior. I have flown one against the other dry.

The -27 provides superior cockpit room and comfort to the 2AX. Some people really prefer the front opening canopy of the 27 to the side opening Ventus. I find it not a deal breaker either way.

I found the conventional flaps on the 27 to be superior for stuffing the glider into short fields and over obstacles. The 5 inch wheel with disc brake provides excellent ground clearance and stopping ability.

The slow speed handling of the 27 is good, but the roll rate and ease of coordination suffer in comparison to the Ventus - not bad, just not as good.

The flap handle on the V2 is by your left thigh, making it difficult to see what position the flaps are in. Against that, once initially trimmed, stick pressure equals wrong flap setting. Very intuitive.

The flap handle on the 27 is easy to see, but provides less pitch feedback than the V2.

Overall, I rate the V2 superior in weak conditions and the 27 better in avg to strong conditions. They are both sweet flying machines!

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:33:12 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Hypothetical situation:
> Same condition
> Same trailer
> Same instruments and accessories
> Which is the better ship for strong western thermal racing conditions?
> Why?
> Thanks in advance for those in the know!
> T

Pick the one you like best.

Long live the 15m class!

T8

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Never flown a 27 or a V2. But Gerhard Waibel's "designed for crashworthiness" cockpit was a factor when I bought my ASW 24 and would be if I were shopping for a glider now.

I think Gerhard's strategy (and OSTIV award) inspired the other factories to pay more attention to this but Schleicher got there first--and continued using the same technology with the 27/29.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 6:33:12 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Hypothetical situation:
> Same condition
> Same trailer
> Same instruments and accessories
> Which is the better ship for strong western thermal racing conditions?
> Why?
> Thanks in advance for those in the know!
> T

Not sure about the v2b, but I flew a ventus c for many years and now own a 27b.

*Ventus has a much faster roll rate than the 27b.
*27b has a much higher, sprung main wheel.
* Ventus has stiffer wings, and therefor a much stiffer ride.
*Ventus requires much more attention to pitch attitude to maintain constant speed.
*I have broken canopy hinges twice on the Ventus due to side hinge.
*I almost melted a Colibri II due to front hinged 27b focusing sunlight on the panel.

Matt

[Bob Youngblood]

Chip, I too, or shall I say my wife has a 24, very nice ship, way underrated and is a joy to fly. I have a 27 B, nice ship also and I really like the Schleicher ships. Bob

[Tango Whisky]

Ventus c and Ventus 2 differ in wingform, airfoil, fuselage and elevator.

[markm...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:27:56 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Ventus c and Ventus 2 differ in wingform, airfoil, fuselage and elevator.

And price.

[Dan Marotta]

But other than that...?

On 12/28/2019 1:27 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Ventus c and Ventus 2 differ in wingform, airfoil, fuselage and elevator.

--
Dan, 5J

[Tim Taylor]

The Ventus 2 has a much softer wing than the Ventus a/b/c and the 27. It is very nice with or without water compared to the earlier Venti.

[lukas.k...@googlemail.com]

Comparison between 27b and V2b:

I flew a Ventus 2B and an ASW 27B.

-The Ventus 2b wings are very hard, for me they are too hard to Fl without water.
-The 27 wings are softer and more flexible.

-Both have integral ballast tanks.
-Both have automatic of rudder connection.

Ventus 2b has a 4" wheel.
27b has a 5" wheel with a disc brake. (better)

The 2b climbs better than the 27b.
The 27b had a little better glide ratio, especially at higher speeds. Higher wingloading with less weight then the 2b.(500kg with 9m² to 525kg with 9,67m².

The V2b has a ballast tank in the tail.
One a very few 27bs have a ballast tank in the tail, but you can install a ballast tank in the fuselage which works a little bit like a ballast tank in the tail fr weight and balance. One of the disadvantages of the 27.

I live in Germany and own a LS6, a model. Last saison I had some nice flights in my LS6a with my friend Michael in his 27b. It was a lot of fun and the high price of the 27 is it not worth in comparison with the LS6.

TOPIC REPAINTING:
Last year we brought our LS4 to Poland for repainting. Because it is a glider of our club, we decided not to take PU. So we choose t35 as paint. Including callsigns and cockpit We paid 7,5k€ without tax.
This year we brought the 27b to Poland, we paid 10k€ without tax. Complete in white, without callsigns.

In Gemany you pay 50% more.

Kind regards,
Lukas

[Tango Whisky]

The Ventus 2 actually has a 5" wheel. My Ventus cm is number 107 out of 110, and it is the first Ventus with a sprung 5" wheel.

[Mike N.]

You guys are making me feel bad about my recent purchase of a Ventus Ct 🤨

Ok maybe not. It was significantly less expensive then a Ventus 2 variant.
Plus my understanding is it's roughly 90% the performance of the V2...?

Anyway I'm happy with it at my skill and experience level.
As I have never been in a contest, I am considering MAYBE entering a regional contest or sports class competition this year.

[lukas.k...@googlemail.com]

Hi Tango Wisky,
the Ventus 2b has, like the Ventus 2a and all the Ventus before a 4" wheel.
Since the Ventus 2c and the Ventus 2bx there is a 5" wheel installed. (The Ventus 2bx has the same fuselage then the Discus 2b and it is newer than the V2b.)

[lukas.k...@googlemail.com]

The ratio of price and performance of the Ventus CT I very good. I think if you don't wanna fly a wgc you have the perfect glider.

[Dave Springford]

Mike N - if you are in the east, go to Cordele for your first contest. They run racing for beginners lessons during the contest and the task area is about as benign as anywhere you could fly with big flat fields. It's a great site for your first contest.

[Mike N.]

Thanks for the comments. Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, I have been reading it with interest.

I am in S.W. Florida, where is Cordell? This may be exactly what I need to do. I'll go over to the SSA website and look it up there as well.

Thanks for the comments!

[Mike N.]

OK I just found this:
https://www.flycordele.com/

I am going to look at the event timing and see if I can make this event, this year. Thanks!

Sorry to tangent the O.P.s original intent of this thread but I do appreciate the information.

Mike

[Tim Taylor]

The Ventus b is about 96% and the Ventus C is about 98% of the Ventus 2. They are very similar in the run, the V2 climbs better. The difference in the Ventus b versus c was mostly in the wing root that allowed the c to have less drag and climb better. The biggest difference from the V1 to V2 was improved handling at low speed and a softer wing that allows a better feel for the air. It is highly recommended that all V1’s have winglets installed if it has not been done yet. I also found winglets on the 16.6 and 17.6 tips improved the handling when flown with the extensions.

[Mike N.]

Thanks Tim, appreciate the feedback. Looking forward to hopefully flying with you this summer in Logan.

I have Masak 15 meter winglets for my Ventus Ct. Would love to get a set of 17.6 meter tips with winglets. I am looking into some options there.

To the O.P. again my apologies for slightly diverting your thread a bit.

Thanks all,
Mike

[Tango Whisky]

As I said, the Ventus cm SN 107 to 110 have 5" wheels. All V2b I saw the same.

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

Oh yes,

was working for HCS for few years.

Pasi

Ok , I never post , but..

Were you flying a DG 300? many many years ago on the Pine Nuts , and met up with a black GLIDER ?? Seem to remember your name :)

HW

[sgs...@gmail.com]

I know two guys bought Ventii and couldn't get rid of them fast enough. Having gone through both types on inspection I would definitely go Schleicher.

[arche...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:18:47 PM UTC-8, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> I know two guys bought Ventii and couldn't get rid of them fast enough. Having gone through both types on inspection I would definitely go Schleicher.

Interesting. Why did those two get rid of them specifically and were they V1 or V2? And what do you mean by "having gone through them on inspection I would definitely go Schleicher"? That the SH build quality is less? I'm sure I'm biased as a V1 owner but surely there are trade offs with each and one could go either way depending on one's preferences and flying style and location.

[andy....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 2 January 2020 21:18:47 UTC, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> I know two guys bought Ventii and couldn't get rid of them fast enough. Having gone through both types on inspection I would definitely go Schleicher.

Well, if we're collecting old anecdotes, I've been at an international contest where 3 of the 4 ASW27's were for sale at the end, with two of those decisions made while there.

Hard to believe that now, but it took a while for the 27 to become popular.

I'm another who doesn't understand your inspection comment.

[Mike N.]

Wow, pretty generic statement. With no indications of why the Ventus were sold, what version, what issues if any were encountered or any other facts. Same for the inspection statement.

Are you generalizing, basically saying your a Chevy guy and "Fords suck"?

[Tom BravoMike]

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:18:47 PM UTC-8, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I know two guys bought Ventii and couldn't get rid of them fast enough. Having gone through both types on inspection I would definitely go Schleicher.
>

> I have owned both AS and SH. Both manufacturers have been producing commercially viable gliders since the dawn of commercial glider design and serial manufacturing. The companies have different design approaches. I respectfully submit that "two guys that bought Ventii" is not a statistically valid sample for much but further inquiry. Your statement conveyed no information other than research might not be your strong suit.
>
> Having owned and flown both Ventus 2C and ASG-29 both are well worth considering.
>
> Best regards,
> Jon

Not that it matters for the subject of the discussion, but before it petrifies in our usage:

Ventus - plural: Venti (and not Ventii):
http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/noun:ventus

[Dan Marotta]

I wonder if the gents who didn't win and then offered their gliders for
sale after the contest really believed that with Brand Y they would have
won.

--
Dan, 5J

[arche...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 9:47:48 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I wonder if the gents who didn't win and then offered their gliders for
> sale after the contest really believed that with Brand Y they would have
> won.
>

> On 1/2/2020 9:39 PM, wrote:
> > On Thursday, 2 January 2020 21:18:47 UTC, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I know two guys bought Ventii and couldn't get rid of them fast enough. Having gone through both types on inspection I would definitely go Schleicher.
> > Well, if we're collecting old anecdotes, I've been at an international contest where 3 of the 4 ASW27's were for sale at the end, with two of those decisions made while there.
> >
> > Hard to believe that now, but it took a while for the 27 to become popular.
> >
> > I'm another who doesn't understand your inspection comment.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I'm guessing more of a Ford vs. Chevy comment. The V1 is definitely built a bit more utilitarian than the 20, but this thread is about second gen gliders so I don't really get it. And I can't imagine anyone quickly selling their V2's, must have been V1's. Or perhaps the contest had very strong conditions every day.

[fink...@gmail.com]

Hypotheticals aside, because you'll never find one of each that is in the same condition with the same instruments and the same trailer.

Therefore, the nicer one is the one with less wear and tear on the interior and exterior. Total Time doesn't matter. It's how it's been taking care of.

The better one is the one with newer instruments and the nicer trailer.

And the best one is the one that comes up for sale that you can afford.

2 real cents from looking at a lot of gliders until finally buying one.

[sgs...@gmail.com]

They were 16.6m as I recall, and not 2's, perhaps not a fair comment on my part. Many years ago. I just didn't feel they were especially well-designed or put together, nothing to do with performance but with fit-and-finish...