Electric tug for a glider?

[John Good]

Posted for a friend:

Has anyone had success moving the main wheel of a glider using a tug like the AC Air Tech with a "lazy susan"?
https://acairtechnology.com/products/ac-tracktech-t1x3-compact-tug-with-lazy-susan

We want to control the main wheel, not the tailwheel, so that one person can move the glider into and out of a hangar (including a slight slope), and rotate the glider about 45 degrees from straight in.

We tried the Best Tugs R8 tug, but are unable to get it under the main wheel of an Arcus, due largely to the weight of the glider. Also there are clearance issues with the gear doors.

Thanks in advance for any experiences you can share.

[Mark Mocho]

I've been looking at AC Air Tech products for some time now, and I think they are awesome! Several of our airshow friends use them to move everything from T-6 Texans and other tailwheel warbirds to Citation jets and other relatively heavy twin engine aircraft. Recently a friend stopped at Moriarty between airshows with the one and only "Yak 110." (https://yak110.com/) He had a pneumatic leak that made it impossible to start the right engine, so he unpacked and assembled his AC Air Tech tug (It breaks down into four components with no tools and reassembles in seconds) and used it to move the Yak 110 several hundred yards from the fuel ramp into our hangar for an overnight stay. The tug, even with only a partial charge, hauled the heavy aircraft easily and only needed a little help to get it over the lip of the door tracks and raised concrete entrance to the hangar. Very impressive, and I see no reason that even the smallest model with a turntable would handle the Arcus easily. They are pricey, but the materials and machining are most impressive. Hope this helps.

[Mark Mocho]

"I see no reason that even the smallest model with a turntable would handle the Arcus easily. "

Re reading this sentence shows that a beer or two can affect simple English. It was meant to say that the tug would handle the Arcus easily, but impaired writing skills imply the opposite. Sorry about that. More beer should fix the problem.

[jfitch]

I made one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IA11z47D8

That is the very first test (on John's borrowed glider :-)). I've since refined it a bit, adding a wireless throttle so I can steer from either the tail or the wingtip, regenerative braking so you don't loose it going downhill, and some steering stops. What you really want is a motor permanently mounted inside the main gear hub, but there isn't very much room there and no doubt federal entanglements. This one just replaces the caster on the tail dolly, and it is completely self contained in the caster.

[Mark Mocho]

Gotta admit, that is VERY COOL! I would love to do some R&D (Ripoff and Duplicate) and put it into production if you are willing to share the design for royalties.

[Bruce]

I want one!!

[GliderCZ]

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 6:39:27 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:
> Gotta admit, that is VERY COOL! I would love to do some R&D (Ripoff and Duplicate) and put it into production if you are willing to share the design for royalties.

Mark, have you ever considered replacing one of the wheels on your MM tow bar with an electric one? Battery and controller could be mounted on the handle, and the bar could still be used in the conventional manner. As an added advantage, it could be used on any glider with a suitable tail dolly. I've looked at MM tow bar (which I really appreciate) for a couple of seasons, wondering if it could be done. Alas, I don't have the skills to make the conversion, but fabricating one outright would seem to be an elegant solution to moving a glider, especially over unpaved surfaces. My old back and tired bones would certainly appreciate some electromechanical assistance, especially on hot SoCal days.

[bumper]

This is not electric or a self contained tug, however it does allow a glider to be conveniently picked up, pivoted, pushed or pulled using manual or vehicle power. Made from a hydraulic ATV lift converted into a "forklift" to pick up a glider main wheel from the side. I used the rig to transport my glider half a mile from hangar to staging area. Also pushed the glider sideways through town, with trailer in tow, for a couple of parades! The wheel casters can be locked for pushing and pulling, or unlocked to move or rotate the glider in any direction. Only suitable for use on paved surfaces. Rig disassembles to fit in a Cobra trailer with glider. No longer have glider so this rig is available for pick up at Minden, NV. $750/offer. (Does not include tail dolly or wing wheel shown. Golf cart no longer available.)
https://imgur.com/rpgWscv

[jfitch]

I'm not very interested in producing it myself, I have thought about the problem a great deal. I'll send you an email to start a discussion.

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 6:39:27 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:

[Mark Mocho]

There is another tracked tug that is designed for moving travel trailers that is cheaper than the AC Air Technology unit, but it has some differences that might make it unsuitable for use with moving a glider by the main wheel. Specifically, it is taller, with the tracks rather close together. If a turntable was mounted on top to allow full sideways motion, the main wheel would probably be six inches off the floor. Loading the glider would be harder than just running the low-slung AC Air tug under the main wheel into the turntable. Plus, a turntable would have to be built and installed.

https://trailervalet.com/shop/trailer-valet-rvr/

This model can handle a 9,000 lb. trailer, but the limiting factor is that it is designed to only support 900 lbs. (Normal tongue weight on a 9,000 lb. trailer.) They make smaller models, but once again, the ability to support the glider weight may make the smaller ones unsuitable.

[2G]

Here is a very cost effective (i.e. cheap) motorized trailer mover that looks like it can be adapted to gliders:
https://www.vevor.com/trailer-dolly-c_11310/motorized-trailer-jack-12v-rv-mover-dolly-electric-easy-trailer-moving-to-hitch-p_010614875313?gclid=Cj0KCQjwz7uRBhDRARIsAFqjull-0GkEM3M-_YWSPO3oHGw2LsF9vSGzkvUQgF4OhLQm5dgKovh0voAaAmyLEALw_wcB

Tom

[2G]

I just noticed that it is out of stock on that website; here is one where it is in stock:
https://www.amazon.com/Biltek-Trailer-Electric-Vehicle-Maneuver/dp/B01M1O94Y6/ref=asc_df_B01M1O94Y6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385267800891&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11169654677414674579&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9029947&hvtargid=pla-378511148862&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=84216869728&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385267800891&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11169654677414674579&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9029947&hvtargid=pla-378511148862

Note that you will need to provide a battery. Ideally, I envision an adapter that would allow me to use the existing tow bar socket on my tail dolly as a way to attach it.

Tom

[GliderCZ]

> > > This model can handle a 9,000 lb. trailer, but the limiting factor is that it is designed to only support 900 lbs. (Normal tongue weight on a 9,000 lb. trailer.) They make smaller models, but once again, the ability to support the glider weight may make the smaller ones unsuitable.
>

> > Tom
Another limiting factor may be its speed. Linked website says "move your trailer at .25 miles per hour." Not exactly suitable for a race to the launch line.

[Mark Mocho]

> Another limiting factor may be its speed. Linked website says "move your trailer at .25 miles per hour." Not exactly suitable for a race to the launch line.

I suggested it primarily as a possible hangar positioning dolly, not cross-country distance records :-)

[GliderCZ]

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 4:15:47 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:
> > Another limiting factor may be its speed. Linked website says "move your trailer at .25 miles per hour." Not exactly suitable for a race to the launch line.
> I suggested it primarily as a possible hangar positioning dolly, not cross-country distance records :-)

Understood, Mark!
Nonetheless, I'd still like to find something that helps me move my glider across a few hundred feet of unimproved ground, perhaps at walking speed. As mentioned earlier, I've looked at the two-wheeled towbar that I got from you several years ago and wondered if there was a way to replace one of the wheels with the same size hub-motor electric wheel. Even if it augmented muscle power, rather than replace it, it would be provide welcome assistance on those 90+ degree days. Many of the hub motors I've looked at can be speed controlled, some reversible. Of course, it would have to capable of free-wheeling so the towbar could be used conventionally. A good use for those few-year-old 12v glider batteries, also...

Disclaimer for those ready to shoot holes in my amateurish conjuring. My engineering skills don't far exceed those required of Ikea furniture assembly.

[5Z]

Many years ago I modified an electric wheelbarrow to move my ASH-26E half way across the airport at Kelly Airpark, CO.

I think that this: https://www.amazon.com/SuperHandy-Utility-Electric-1000LBS-Hauling/dp/B08TLMDQ4C/ref=sr_1_4_sspa?keywords=electric+wheelbarrow&qid=1655512888&sr=8-4-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMU0yWk41TElYM0syJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDExODQ5MzlaNVhaVEE1QUVUMCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTE1ODUxMU85WkJGTkJXTkI5VyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

...could be easily modified as I did. Remove the basket and install a trailer ball over the main axle. Then use the type of tow bar that lifts the tail (to add weight to the wheels) to move the glider. I would push the glider nose first and it worked very well.

My mod involved welding.

5Z

[2G]

That is 22 ft/min. It's meant to move a 5,000 lb trailer. A "race" to the launch line is better done with a vehicle. This is more suited to moving a glider out of a tie-down or hanger. I have to put the tail dolly on my ASH31, which requires the use of the tow bar to lift the tail (it is 144 lb!). Generally, we are not that interested in speed, but in not throwing our back out.

[2G]

Here is a motorized wheel that may replace the wheel in a tail dolly:
https://www.amazon.com/Kee-nso-Electric-Bicycles-Scooter/dp/B083M49KRB/ref=asc_df_B083M49KRB/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=432983002691&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13988277496205098986&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9029947&hvtargid=pla-897007533306&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=97915691462&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=432983002691&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13988277496205098986&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9029947&hvtargid=pla-897007533306


Tom

[2G]

Here is another idea: take an electric scooter and hack it. It already has a motor-driven drive wheel, speed controller and batteries. Here is one to start with:
https://www.amazon.com/Razor-E100-Glow-Electric-Scooter/dp/B00KCK55IU/ref=asc_df_B00KCK55IU/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312154671095&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15428445332800045185&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9029947&hvtargid=pla-434551940764&th=1
You will probably need to buy a 2nd tail dolly just to be safe (you don't want to end up with an unusable dolly).

Tom

[Bruce]

If someone with the skills could come up with jfitch's powered wheel, and the Easy lift that apparently Cobra had at one time. I've not seen one but found this on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXuZX6VjpQQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IA11z47D8

The combination would eliminate the requirement for a separate lifter for heavier tails and would be a really good solution for my needs.

Has anyone ever used the Cobra Easy lift tail dolly and how well did it do?

Bruce

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 6:22:17 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

[2G]

The "EZ Lift" tail dolly is a modified version of the standard Cobra tail dolly using a modified gate hinge (notice that it has a 45 degree bend to it, plus other modifications). Cobra does not sell this.

Tom

[jfitch]

My motorized tail dolly does have the EZ lift option, not Cobra's (which is a little agricultural) but my own execution. This works well with or without the motor. For anyone trying this, I've been up at Truckee flying in the regional. The Truckee glider ramp has notoriously loose gravel, a normal tail dolly wheel can sink in and plow a 3" furrow. My motorized wheel has great difficulty in moving the glider in this soft stuff. Harder gravel or dirt it works better, pavement even better. Keep in mind that this is on an ASH26Mi, observed weight on the tailwheel is 140 lbs. When it hits a "gravel trap" it spins and digs a hole, works only with some manual push assistance.

Most bicycle and scooter drives are intended for much faster operation than you need/want (and much less torque than you need), so gearing has to be designed into the adaptation.

[2G]

Here is an electric mono scooter that may be hackable:
https://www.amazon.com/Kahuna-Creations-One-Wheel-Electric-Scooter/dp/B08LMGLQK9/ref=sr_1_21?keywords=electric+wheel&qid=1656112359&sr=8-21

Tom

[Mark Mocho]

I've been following this thread with the idea that it might be a marketable item, but I'm not sure that there is a demand that will support the cost of development and fabrication at a price that will support the effort and yet be affordable. How many glider pilots would be willing to purchase a powered tail dolly at possibly a $1000 or higher cost? My best guess is- not many. Most of the suggested powered hub motor wheels are designed for scooters or transportation devices, with the speed capability much higher than walking speed. And that is why they are marketed as such. I don't think these propulsion units are suitable for a glider moving application, as they are, by definition, much faster than the walking pace I consider safe for glider mobility.

So, for now at least, this idea has been demoted to the back burner.

[Danny Brotto]

I began working on a ground movement tug for the glider a few years ago. I've gone through a few iterations; the below link shows the latest. The motor is from a mobility scooter with a full differential incorporated (e-bay for ~$100). The electricals are hacked from a Dewalt brushed drill motor. The battery is a Dewalt 18V Lithium 8 amp hour battery. The battery is removeable from the cart and is charged on a Dewalt charger. The speed control is the trigger switch from the drill. The trigger switch incorporates a switch allowing forward and reverse. While the motor is normally run from 24V lead acid batteries but in my "cart" the voltage is 18V which, when full on, allows for a walking pace.

I like the idea of the hub motor incorporated in the tail dolly. Might have to add that to my "winter project" list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRZWYgigKbI

Danny Brotto
LS-8/18 "P6"

[jfitch]

One problem with commercial viability is there is a wide variety of need, one implementation does not fit all. Movement in and out of a hanger on tarmac could be done with a large and non-portable machine. In my particular case, I wanted to be able to easily lift it and store it in the trailer for transport like the rest of the ground handling equipment, and move it easily by hand from launch to recovery area. My version can be easily lifted and carried with one hand, is lighter than several of the other pieces of GH equipment, and nearly as compact as the original tail dolly. None of that is necessary for a hanger tug.

[Dan Marotta]

Wow! That's pretty neat. But a comment...

I used to fly an LS-6 and I know how flimsy the canopy mechanism is when
open. Though I did not see the trees dancing, I'd never move an LS
glider with the canopy open. Just sayin'...

Dan
5J

[Danny Brotto]

Yah, point taken. I was pretty sure that the open canopy would get a mention and almost didn't post due to that concern... but really didn't want to have to rig today and retake the video with a closed canopy. That being said there was no wind and movement was on smooth surface and video taken just for this post and as you can see, no canopy "jiggle" during movement.

I designed the cart so that I could pull the glider up the about 1,000 ft of taxiway (M-ASA W73) from the ramp to the flight line without having to hook up the truck. I can do about 3 trips up and back (6,000 ft total) on one battery charge. Moving up the taxiway for the 1,000 ft, the canopy would not only be closed but also locked.

Danny Brotto
LS-8/18 "P6"

[Bud Shaw]

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-5, John Good wrote:
> Posted for a friend:
>
> Has anyone had success moving the main wheel of a glider using a tug like the AC Air Tech with a "lazy susan"?
> https://acairtechnology.com/products/ac-tracktech-t1x3-compact-tug-with-lazy-susan
>
> We want to control the main wheel, not the tailwheel, so that one person can move the glider into and out of a hangar (including a slight slope), and rotate the glider about 45 degrees from straight in.
>
> We tried the Best Tugs R8 tug, but are unable to get it under the main wheel of an Arcus, due largely to the weight of the glider. Also there are clearance issues with the gear doors.
>
> Thanks in advance for any experiences you can share.

I am also looking for a dolly that will allow me to roll the glider sideways partially into the hangar, and then rotate it 30-45 degrees, and slide it sideways again. Based on having good luck using inexpensive wheel dollies on the four wheels of cars, I bought one advertised as suitable for gliders. Unfortunately, the castering wheels are too small to allow the glider to roll over some of the larger defects in the hangar floor or over the door threshold without causing the dolly to stop rotating with the glider. The dolly we use for our L23 has proven adequate, however, by inserting a short piece of 2x4 along side the main wheel to keep it from rotating in the “trough” and inserting a short piece of 2x6 into the trough forward of the main wheel to keep the glider from rolling too far forward and damaging the main gear door.

[Dan Marotta]

A friend used to have a round steel plate with heavy-duty casters.
IIRC, he had a ramp to roll his DG-500m-22 on to the dolly. He cut a
section out of his hangar door track and installed blind nuts into the
concrete floor to replace the track after the glider was inside. Worked
pretty well.

Have you seen those mini-tank treaded devices? Something like this:

https://homedepot.com/p/Trailer-Valet-3500-lbs-Remote-Control-Mover-TVRVR3/305093551

Dan
5J

[AS]

On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 10:24:49 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> A friend used to have a round steel plate with heavy-duty casters.
> IIRC, he had a ramp to roll his DG-500m-22 on to the dolly. He cut a
> section out of his hangar door track and installed blind nuts into the
> concrete floor to replace the track after the glider was inside. Worked
> pretty well.
>
> Have you seen those mini-tank treaded devices? Something like this:
>
> https://homedepot.com/p/Trailer-Valet-3500-lbs-Remote-Control-Mover-TVRVR3/305093551
>
> Dan
> 5J

Dan - I am using exactly that device to maneuver my trailer in and out of the hangar here in SC. To turn this tracked device into a glider dolly would take some engineering but I think it is possible.
Bud - feel free to contact me at moc.oohay ta nnamuenilu

Uli
'AS'