Pegases LS4a or ???
Culverflyer
put.Some say flaps some no flaps for the first sailplane.
Thank in advance.
tango4
ASW 20 an oldie but another excellent choice.
You will fly the LS4 well from day 1, the 20 will take about a season before
you begin to get it 'in the groove'
LS4 over the Pegase. ( by a factor of 2:1! )
Ian
Ex LS1, LS4, ASW20, Libelle and now Ventus B ( Not a beginners ship at
all! )
"Culverflyer" <mha...@west.net> wrote in message
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BTIZ
but... if you've never flown a glider with flaps, spoilers and gear.. it may
be wiser to move up in stages..
that first time you get rushed in the landing pattern and pull the flaps
thinking you've got the spoilers.. and go through the departure end fence
landing long..
or retract the flaps thinking your retracting spoilers.. creating one great
sink rate..
or forget the gear...
having flown glass ships with negative capable flaps.. your constantly
resetting the flap position as you slow for thermal climbs then racing to
the next thermal..
I've flown DG200s and Grob104s with flaps.. the 104 was easier..
The LS-4 is a great first glass ship.. we have one in the club for glass
transition... and the way the gear handle rests in front of the spoiler
handle when the gear is in the UP position is a great reminder.. although
you can reach around the gear and pull spoilers to get down from on high.
Just remember to put the gear down.
just my humble 2cents
TZ
"Culverflyer" <mha...@west.net> wrote in message
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Nick Gilbert
If you can afford an LS-4, then buy one.
'nuff sed.
Nick.
"Culverflyer" <mha...@west.net> wrote in message
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Andre Somers
You may also considder a DG300....
André
Tim
thus:
So a slight twist on the question ... any suggestions as to how to
afford an LS-4 or equiv with having a large syndicate to fight over it
with or need to visit the bank with a Holland & Holland in the crook
of your arm?
--
Tim - dump the spam to reply
Olivier Dancer
both ships, and although I find the LS4 a bit more comfortable, there is no
performance difference. The Pegase climbs very well!
Actually, I prefer the Pegase 90 with automatic hookup of controls.
"tango4" <ian@t a n g o 4.demon.co.uk> a écrit dans le message news:
1014701859.7075.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
ventus2ctSP...@quicknet.nl
wrote:
>actually the preference is yours...
>
>but... if you've never flown a glider with flaps, spoilers and gear.. it may
>be wiser to move up in stages..
>
As I recall, a famous glider pilot once said:
"If glider pilots were destined to fly ships without flaps, they would
have been born with one hand only". ;-))
Jean Richard
>
> "LS4 over the Pegase. ( by a factor of 2:1! )" I beg to differ. I've owned
> both ships, and although I find the LS4 a bit more comfortable, there is no
> performance difference. The Pegase climbs very well!
> Actually, I prefer the Pegase 90 with automatic hookup of controls.
I almost agree.
Pégase and LS4 have identical performances and both are easy to fly and
are suitable for low time pilots.
LS4 handling is better - I should say more lively.
Finally, I find the Pégase more confortable (it probably depends how tall
you are).
Jean Richard
>
> actually the preference is yours...
>
> but... if you've never flown a glider with flaps, spoilers and gear.. it may
> be wiser to move up in stages..
>
> that first time you get rushed in the landing pattern and pull the flaps
> thinking you've got the spoilers.. and go through the departure end fence
> landing long..
You will then know that you are color blind ;-)))
> The LS-4 is a great first glass ship.. we have one in the club for glass
> transition... and the way the gear handle rests in front of the spoiler
> handle when the gear is in the UP position is a great reminder..
One of the best system I've ever seen... Easy to handle too.
Jon Meyer
wrote:>As I recall, a famous glider pilot once said:>'If glider pilots were destined to fly ships without
>flaps, they would>have been born with one hand only'. ;-))>Damn right!!Get performance for your money. Get an ASW20. It's
dead easy to fly, the landing flap settings are awesome,
making it unlikely that you'll hit the far hedge while
trying to land in a small field, and the performance
for your money is unbeatable. Only problem is gel coat - get one thats been recently
re-gelled. It still won't cost as much as an LS4.J.
John Cochrane
Why not a brand new ASW28, Discus 2, LS8, a new Discus CS, ls4b or 305, or slightly used Discus CS (mine, for instance)? The new gliders are easier to fly, have better crashworthiness and other safety features (automatic controls) and typically require much less maintenance. (They happen to have slightly better performance too, but that's a minor issue) There is no aviation reason that it's right for a new pilot to be involved with nursing along an antique, and worrying about rust, gel coat cracks, ADs, fading instruments, l'hotellier fittings, and so on.
It tends to go that way because newer pilots haven't yet come up with all the rationalizations the rest of us have found to explain to our wives why we need to spend $70k instead of $20k on our hobby. But if you've got the money, there is no reason at all to limit yourself to old gliders.
That said, I've owned 2 pegasus and flown an LS4 a bit. Both are lovely gliders, with a slight edge to the LS4; pick based on gel coat and price.
John Cochrane
John Cochrane
Why not a brand new ASW28, Discus 2, LS8, a new Discus CS, ls4b or 305, or slightly used Discus CS (mine, for instance)? The new gliders are easier to fly, have better crashworthiness and other safety features (automatic controls) and typically require much less maintenance. (They happen to have slightly better performance too, but that's a minor issue) There is no aviation reason that it's right for a new pilot to be involved with nursing along an antique, and worrying about rust, gel coat cracks, ADs, fading instruments, l'hotellier fittings, and so on.
It tends to go that way because newer pilots haven't yet come up with all the rationalizations the rest of us have found to explain to our wives why we need to spend $70k instead of $20k on our hobby. But if you've got the money, there is no reason at all to limit yourself to old gliders.
That said, I've owned 2 pegasus and flown an LS4 a bit. Both are lovely gliders, with a slight edge to the LS4; pick based on gel coat and price.
John Cochrane
Owen Davies
drive a Cadet when not engineless? Nice plane,
if so. I'd love to hear more, perhaps off the
newsgroup.
Owen Davies
Gary Kemp
> LS4 - any variant - superb ship thats why they still make them.
>
> ASW 20 an oldie but another excellent choice.
>
> You will fly the LS4 well from day 1, the 20 will take about a season before
> you begin to get it 'in the groove'
>
> LS4 over the Pegase. ( by a factor of 2:1! )
I realize there are greater differences between sailplanes of the same
type than between sailplanes of a different type, but 2:1???? does
that mean that a Pegase has performance equal to a 2-22??? I owned a
Pegase for 17 years and flew an LS-4, to be truthful (I know I might
be thought of as prejudiced) but I didn't see much difference, hard to
get 1000K in a ship that is 1/2 as good as an LS-4, maybe I am just a
fantastic pilot.
mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr
> LS4 - any variant - superb ship thats why they still make them.
> ASW 20 an oldie but another excellent choice.
> You will fly the LS4 well from day 1, the 20 will take about a season before
> you begin to get it 'in the groove'
> LS4 over the Pegase. ( by a factor of 2:1! )
This is the famous English hate Frenchs attitude! I have done many hours in
both LS4 and Pegase, and cannot say that one is better than the other. The
LS4 is slightly easier to pilot, the Pegase has better acceleration and
perhaps slightly better perfs, the LS4 is slightly better built, and
is more comfortable for fat persons. In any case a factor of 2:1 is
completely ridiculous, except perhaps if you look at the price :)
--
Michel Talon
Dan Dunkel
over either of these two. You can see my opinion on this subject at
http://home.earthlink.net/~ddunkel1/LS317.htm.
-Dan
"Culverflyer" <mha...@west.net> wrote in message
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Owain Walters
Hi,
For what its worth, I would go for a LS-4. The cockpit is one of the most comfortable gliders I have flown. Its not all the time you can fly a glider for over 8 hours, and still say that!
The handling is second to none. I would even argue that the handling is better than the LS-8.
The performance is more than sufficient for general flying. It is also acceptable for most competitions, as long as you do not want to fly the Standard Class or the 15m,or the Open class nationals for that matter. Although in Europe the are allowed to fly in the Club Class, and obviously the Handicapped regionals (not sure what the rules are in the States). Any competition I have flown in a LS-4, my lack of performance was nothing to do with the glider!!
The canopy system at a glance looks flimsy, but once you are used to it, it is actually a very good system.
As for a comparison with a Pegase, I will be honest. I have only flown a Pegase once, and again it is a nice glider. Although the performance figures on paper are roughly similar, I get the impression that the LS-4 runs away from a Pegase over a long flight. This is my opinion, and is not intended to start a fight!!
To sum up: both are nice gliders. If it were me, I would definitely go for a LS-4.
Having said all that, if you are thinking about getting a flapped glider and are worried about coping with the extra lever, have a chat with a local instructor, or your Chief Flying Instructor. I am sure they will be happy to discuss which would be a suitable glider for your current experience and skill levels. However, for the amount of money you are implying you want to spend, a ASW-20 (as my learned friend John said) is a pretty viceless glider.
The whole "flaps thing" is something that you probably shouldn't get too stressed over. If you see a flapped glider that you really want, its probably worth getting. Again, speak to your local instructors, they will be far better at giving advice about this kind of matter than a load of bored people at work with nothing better to do!!!
Whatever you decide, hope you enjoy it!
Owain
tango4
Not at all.
If you can't tell the difference between a Pegase and an LS4 then you must
be a real ham fisted pilot.
:-)
Ian
<mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote in message
news:a5fno6$7ag$3...@rose.lpthe.jussieu.fr...
> tango4 <ian@t a n g o 4.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > LS4 - any variant - superb ship thats why they still make them.
>
> > ASW 20 an oldie but another excellent choice.
>
> > You will fly the LS4 well from day 1, the 20 will take about a season
before
> > you begin to get it 'in the groove'
>
> > LS4 over the Pegase. ( by a factor of 2:1! )
>
tango4
verge of taking out a contract on me.
As with HiFis, Video, Cars and dare I say it Women and a whole bunch of
other things all of this is subjective folks!
When I said 2:1 for the LS4 over the Pegase I didn't mention performance at
all, I wasn't even thinking performance. Comfort and perfect control harmony
were more what I was thinking about. The placement of the undercarriage
lever on the LS4 was a brilliant idea. The seat back with the big headrest
is superbly comfortable. Little things like adjustable root spigots to take
out any slack in the wing mounts which meant the ship was always 'tight'.
Someone asked for an opinion, I gave mine. Its worth about what he paid for
it.
Ian
"Owain Walters" <REMOVE_TO_R...@servitehouses.org.uk> wrote in
message news:a5gk6i$751ue$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr
> So a slight twist on the question ... any suggestions as to how to
> afford an LS-4 or equiv with having a large syndicate to fight over it
> with or need to visit the bank with a Holland & Holland in the crook
> of your arm?
This is the whole point, a Pegase only for you will be 2:1 to a LS4
that you share with another guy. And this is true 2:1 not fantasy.
As for the handling, yes, the LS4 is smarter to beginners. But once
you have flewn a couple of hours a Pegase you will not see any
difference (or you will find the LS4 dull, this was my case).
--
Michel Talon
mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr
> Get performance for your money. Get an ASW20. It's
> dead easy to fly,
Certainly not dead easy. At least the same problems as the Pegase (accelerates
quickly and so on) plus having to handle the flaps.
> the landing flap settings are awesome,
> making it unlikely that you'll hit the far hedge while
> trying to land in a small field,
Yes
> and the performance
> for your money is unbeatable. Only problem is gel coat - get one thats been recently
> re-gelled. It still won't cost as much as an LS4.J.
Yes, a magnificent plane, much cheaper now than a LS4, much better performing,
but less forgiving to beginners. For a club or a syndicate the LS4 is probably
a better buy.
--
Michel Talon
Todd Smith
Owain Walters <REMOVE_TO_R...@servitehouses.org.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> The whole "flaps thing" is something that you probably shouldn't get too
> stressed over.
<snip>
I agree, power students learn to deal with flaps from flight 1,
they don't have any trouble.
Todd Smith
John Galloway
your second hand glider market and get the best example
you can afford of the most popular and resaleable glider
that is also suitable for your needs and abilities.
This for 2 reasons; firstly the glider market is small
and well informed and the really popular gliders are
good gliders; secondly you will want to sell it easily
and with a little profit or at least not much loss.
This might mean that you choose one type over another
that is also a good glider.
For example, in the UK, of the gliders you mention,
I think that my money would be safest in an LS4.
John
Tony Verhulst
>
> At 05:12 26 February 2002, Culverflyer wrote:
> >I am a low time soaring Pilot I want to have my own
> >ship.
I owned a share in a Pegasus 101A for about 2 years. It's a very nice
ship. It was almost the first glass glider that I'd flown and the
transition was a no brainer. Its only weakness, IMHO, is that it can be
a hand full on a crosswind take off. Even the manual recommends no more
than an 8 knot xwind component on take off.
Tony
George Marinos
For what its worth my Pegases beat over half the
field in the 1999 Standard Class National at Minden.
Not bad for a then 15 year old glider.
Its the man not the crate. To quote a phrase.
By the way I wasn't flying it in the Nationals.
You can get the Pegases for less that the only advantage I see.
Thanks
George Marinos
GM
"Culverflyer" <mha...@west.net> wrote in message
news:qJEe8.16$GV....@newsfeed.avtel.net...
John Wright
LS a fair bit too) and as Owain says it is very easy to get used to and
handles nicely. But to be honest, I don't think the price difference
matches the performance difference and wouldn't sell my Pegase to move up to
an LS4 - it just would not be worth it, I'd want a bigger jump inperformance
if I was about to spend more (no comments Owain!). Buying first time is a
different matter, as you have one choice to make - can I afford the slightly
better one? Certainly in any cross country between the two gliders, pilot
performance would totally outweigh any differences in the two gliders'
performance. And you can get the Pegase down in a very short space if you
ever need to use full airbrake - I can't remember the last time I ever
needed full brake in mine, they are so good.
A friend's wife, with a Bronze C and little experience (~40 hours I think)
bought into an ASW20BL and had no trouble after a few flights in a Janus
with an instructor. Although underconfident she admitted the glider didn't
hold her back, only her own worries. I did a flap conversion set of flights
for another Bronze C pilot who was buying into an ASW 20 BL (the same one!)
and he too had few problems with the Janus, and then the ASW. The ASW20's
short field landing ability is legendary and I can testify to that one! As
someone else said, power pilots start in flaps and have no problems.
Of these gliders, and the DG300 and Discus also mentioned as being very
easy to fly, buy which ever one you can afford.
"Owain Walters" <REMOVE_TO_R...@servitehouses.org.uk> wrote in
message news:a5gk6i$751ue$1...@ID-49798.news.dfncis.de...
>
John Wright
"Tony Verhulst" <verh...@zk3.dec.com> wrote in message
news:3C7D1EA3...@zk3.dec.com...
> I owned a share in a Pegasus 101A for about 2 years. It's a very nice
> ship. It was almost the first glass glider that I'd flown and the
> transition was a no brainer. Its only weakness, IMHO, is that it can be
> a hand full on a crosswind take off. Even the manual recommends no more
> than an 8 knot xwind component on take off.
>
> Tony
Are you sure it says that? I've had no problems in stronger cross winds
winds than that, even on aerotow from a hard runway, but of course I did
drift over a lot after take-off.
Chris Davison
I am reliably(?) informed they walk all over LS4's.......
Chris
At 21:36 27 February 2002, George Marinos wrote:
>Hi
>
>For what its worth my Pegases beat over half the
>
>field in the 1999 Standard Class National at Minden.
>
>Not bad for a then 15 year old glider.
>
>Its the man not the crate. To quote a phrase.
>
>By the way I wasn't flying it in the Nationals.
>
>You can get the Pegases for less that the only advantage
>I see.
>
>Thanks
>
>George Marinos
>
>GM
>
>'Culverflyer' wrote in message
Olly Ward
Chris Davison
but as they have the same h/c as an LS4 guess I am
talking rubbish?Confused.At 18:30 28 February 2002, Olly Ward wrote:>Handicapped or non-handicapped that's the issue!!>>>>
mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr
> verge of taking out a contract on me.
> As with HiFis, Video, Cars and dare I say it Women and a whole bunch of
> other things all of this is subjective folks!
> When I said 2:1 for the LS4 over the Pegase I didn't mention performance at
> all, I wasn't even thinking performance. Comfort and perfect control harmony
> were more what I was thinking about. The placement of the undercarriage
> lever on the LS4 was a brilliant idea. The seat back with the big headrest
> is superbly comfortable. Little things like adjustable root spigots to take
> out any slack in the wing mounts which meant the ship was always 'tight'.
Now that you have retracted to comfort and handling questions, we can agree.
No doubt the handling of the LS4 is easier, the undercarriage lever is
extremely nice, while that of the Pegase is quite dull.
I also said that the LS4 is better built, which does not mean that the
Pegase is badly built. Let us talk comfort:
i mentioned that fat people may be much better in the LS4. For my average
size and weight, i have always been extremely comfortable in the Pegase.
The whole question is to know if those differences are worth the money,
or if the money is better spent on a ASW20 for example. Because for rich
people there is no problem finding gliders better than all those
previously mentioned. You are all lamenting on the decline of gliding
all other the world. I happen to think that the main cause is that gliding
is ways too expensive, and the cause of that is people accept to pay
ridiculous prices to glider factories to have the newest, the brightest,
the cutest instead of contenting with the cheapest doing the job.
--
Michel Talon
Jon Meyer
were once the expensive, high performance hot ships.
If people hadn't been willing to pay for the in the
late 1970's then we wouldn't be able to buy them now.
Thank god for the people who spend their hard earned
cash on brand new gliders so that we can buy them cheap
when they get a bit old!J.
mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr
Yes, you are right. But in the case of the LS4 and the Pegase they were
both available new at the same time, and the Pegase was cheaper than the LS4.
I don't remember precisely the exact difference but it was substantial.
Of course in the used market, the difference will be greater because the
LS4 enjoys very good reputation and will be priced higher. What i had in mind
is that, in the few occasions that historically appeared were it was possible
to buy cheaper gliders with basically the same perfs, a combination of
snobism and conservatism ensured that almost everybody continued to buy
Schleicher, Rolladen and Schemp-Hirth so that competition disappeared.
Of course this band of 3 augmented their prices to stratospheric levels,
and still you need to wait for years before getting your machine. There is no
other example of similar absurd situation in the car or boat industry.
Well if Porsche had no Japanese competitors it could try to sell its cars
at twice their current price. Now you are paying typically the same price to
get a glider.
--
Michel Talon
Martin Gregorie
wrote:
>The LS-4 is a great first glass ship.. we have one in the club for glass
>transition... and the way the gear handle rests in front of the spoiler
>handle when the gear is in the UP position is a great reminder.. although
>you can reach around the gear and pull spoilers to get down from on high.
>Just remember to put the gear down.
>
That's one of the things I like about the Pegase. At first I thought
that the gear handle in the 'up' position was just bad ergonomics for
the way its slightly in the way as you reach fro the trimmer. On my
second flight I decided that was good because, with it there, it
would be difficult to retrim on the downwind landing leg and NOT
realize the gear was still up.
I've only 5 flights on a Pegase (currently converting from Junior) but
I think its a very pleasant plane to fly indeed. I hope to be flying
our club's Pegase 90 a lot this season.
>just my humble 2cents
>
>TZ
>
>"Culverflyer" <mha...@west.net> wrote in message
Eduard Gorina
I have been flying a Pegase for years over the plain and within the
mountains
and found it a great plane. I had a lot of fun, as well as great flights.
A plane with noble behaviour and good performance. And most probably
and LS4 would have given to me similar results. And this is my point:
The pilot over the plane. This makes the difference in this case.
Eduard
<mic...@lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote in message
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