Motorglider Help

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I have a very good friend that has asked me to obtain credible performance information on a Mini Lak self launch electric . Now please don't get the wrong idea, Old Bob, The Purist, is certainly not interested in going electric, I am not old enough to have lost some of my skills and therefore will stay the purist that I am.
This friend is serious about a self launch sailplane and for some reason the Mini caught his attention. If any of you motorglider guys or gals could offer advice it would certainly be appreciated and I will pass it on to a very good guy. Old Bob, The Purist

[Dan Daly]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 3:30:09 PM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a very good friend that has asked me to obtain credible performance information on a Mini Lak self launch electric . Now please don't get the wrong idea, Old Bob, The Purist, is certainly not interested in going electric, I am not old enough to have lost some of my skills and therefore will stay the purist that I am.
> This friend is serious about a self launch sailplane and for some reason the Mini caught his attention. If any of you motorglider guys or gals could offer advice it would certainly be appreciated and I will pass it on to a very good guy. Old Bob, The Purist

There was an article on it in Nordic Gliding.
https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/fortsat-fornoejet-med-mini-lak-fes/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US "Still Happy with Mini LAK FES". Google translated, but it's readable. In the Electro section of the website, they cover gliders, and towing them with various electric cars on long trips. A good resource.

[Dan Daly]

While browsing after posting, I notice their test flight series has a flight test including take-off numbers seen.
https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/mini-lak-fes/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US .

[Eric Greenwell]

On 12/2/2021 12:30 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a very good friend that has asked me to obtain credible performance information on a Mini Lak self launch electric . Now please don't get the wrong idea, Old Bob, The Purist, is certainly not interested in going electric, I am not old enough to have lost some of my skills and therefore will stay the purist that I am.
> This friend is serious about a self launch sailplane and for some reason the Mini caught his attention. If any of you motorglider guys or gals could offer advice it would certainly be appreciated and I will pass it on to a very good guy. Old Bob, The Purist
>

Since we don't have a clue about the kind of performance that interests him, I suggest he
contact the owners of the MiniLAK FES N135LK. There are three owners (Phil Rose, Lynn
Wyman, Rita Edris) with a wide variety of experience: Phil uses it mostly at Ely to set
records; the others fly recreationally in Washington state. You can also look up their
flights on the OLC. And it wouldn't hurt to talk to the US dealer ;^)

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Thanks Dan, I will pass this info along to my friend. Old Bob, The Purist

[Lynn Wyman]

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 12:30:09 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a very good friend that has asked me to obtain credible performance information on a Mini Lak self launch electric . Now please don't get the wrong idea, Old Bob, The Purist, is certainly not interested in going electric, I am not old enough to have lost some of my skills and therefore will stay the purist that I am.
> This friend is serious about a self launch sailplane and for some reason the Mini caught his attention. If any of you motorglider guys or gals could offer advice it would certainly be appreciated and I will pass it on to a very good guy. Old Bob, The Purist

Rita Edris, Phil Rose and I own and fly N135LK. Phil flies it out of Ely, NV and has set several world records with it. Rita and I are not interested in record setting so are not trying to get the most out of it. She has her OLC flights listed under "Rita Edriss". What I like the most is being able to self launch just about anywhere. The performance is at least equal to the PIK-20d I owned for many years and possibly just slightly better. I usually power up to 1,000 ft. above takeoff and never use the motor the rest of the flight. I have never had to turn the motor on to reach an airport yet in the 28 flights I have so far.

[Eric Greenwell]

How much battery capacity do you have after the launch, and how far do you think you could
go with it?

[Jeffrey Banks]

Hi all,

The OLC has a new tab called FlightFinder

In the "Airplane" box put the glider you are interested in and review other Glider Specific aircraft igc files.

There are other boxes so you can narrow the dates.

Then plug it into SeeYou desktop and check FES and other motorglider climb rates all over the world.

Jeff Banks N9
Silent2Electro
Russia AC5m
ASH31mi

[2G]

As I have detailed in another thread, Phil DID get stuck about 50 miles NW of Ely and could not motor back because there were mountains between him and Ely. A route following the highway would have been double the distance, thus not practical, either (a pilot flying an ASH26e did do this from the same area successfully). Instead, Phil used his remaining battery power to hunt around for the best landout spot (they are not very many in Eastern NV) and landed out uneventfully. He was retrieved that night and was back at Ely in the wee hours of the morning.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

A pretty small price to pay for all those records!

[2G]

That is totally irrelevant to my comment. A major reason people buy motorgliders is for their self-retrieve capability. Landouts in Eastern NV can kill you.

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Old Kingfish is making lots of friends

[Eric Greenwell]

Phil will not be one of those. He is a careful, experienced pilot, and was well prepared
for a landout in the Ely flying area. And, yes, it was relevant to the OP's question about
performance.

[jfitch]

If you are flying at a location and altitude that has significant risk of a fatal landout, a motorglider is not the best solution. Changing your flying habits and planning is. An auxiliary motor, electric or ICE, is not a life insurance policy.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 12/5/2021 10:21 PM, 2G wrote:

> That is totally irrelevant to my comment. A major reason people buy motorgliders is for their self-retrieve capability. Landouts in Eastern NV can kill you.
>
> Tom

What is the divider (longitude?) that separates Eastern and Western NV?

How many pilots have died in Eastern NV landouts? I don't remember any.

[2G]

I said that landouts in Eastern NV CAN kill you, not that they will kill you. The more prepared you are and the more prudent you fly will considerably reduce, but not eliminate, these odds. Landing at an airport, such as Eureka or Wells, makes injury or death extremely unlikely (but not zero - see the following).

BTW, ANY landout has the potential of killing you, and YES it has happened. I recall a motorglider landout death at Minden some years ago involving a failed restart, so YES there have been death(s) of glider landouts in NV.

You are surprisingly cavalier about these safety issues - is it because you have a GP-15 on order which will have similar self-retrieve limitations? And WHERE is your GP-15, anyway?

Tom

[2G]

Jon,

As I replied to Eric, ANY landout can kill you. If you don't think so you are seriously kidding yourself. This would be an interesting research topic for someone so inclined. Of course, the way to eliminate all risks is to not fly at all.

The reason behind flying a motorglider in Eastern NV is to minimize the possibility of a landout and the consequential retrieve, which will be long and arduous (and have its own risks). The fatal landout at Minden involved landing in a pasture with a barbed wire fence; Eastern NV has far fewer of these dangerous obstacles. The risks are more along the line of not having sufficient water and dying of exposure.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell]

I think the crash you refer to was in a PIK 20E. As I recall the accident, he'd probably
would have avoided the crash if he'd been flying an FES glider that failed to start.

Driving to the airport CAN kill you, but that's not what we tell glider pilots interested
in motorgliders, is it? The OP did not ask about flying in Eastern NV, but only about the
performance of the MiniLAK FES. My posting was to point out it had plenty of performance.

I think it is a mistake to imply the retrieve range of the MiniLAK is a safety hazard, as
it undercuts what most us of try to impress on pilots interested in motorgliders: the
engine is a convenience, not a safety feature, and the pilot should always fly so he is
still safe if the engine fails to start, or fails at anytime.

Fact is, the majority of flights in Eastern NV are in unpowered gliders with ZERO retrieve
range. If you really think a glider with a low retrieve range, like the MiniLAK FES, is
unsafe, you should be informing all those pilots of unpowered gliders about your concerns.
Convincing those "high risk" pilots to convert to motorgliders will more effectively
achieve your Eastern NV retrieve range related death risk reduction goals, even if they
start flying a MiniLAK FES :^)

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

What is so interesting and non revealing about the Kingfish response is that he thinks that most fatalities happen on landing out, that is simply not the case. Convincing a Purist to switch to motorgliders will not in any way contribute to safety. As a purist I will take my chances any day over a motorglider guy that relies on that engine as life support. I have lost several friends in glider accidents, none of which were during the land out stage of flight. Old Bob, The purist

[2G]

Racist Bobby wasn't reading what I was writing, but what else is new.

Tom

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

It was a Pik 30 and the pilot was a very nice guy. I shudder every time I think of this mishap.

[John Sinclair]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the fatal accident in a Mini LAk FES. Nobody knows exactly what happened, but I believe the crash was a mile north of takeoff site after a 2 hour flight. I knew the pilot and in my opinion the accident was caused by a very senior pilot (88) trying to learn a new ship and a new launch system. His first flight was a near disaster involving an over-heat warning at 800 feet, followed by motor shutdown! Then, on final the motor restarted as he was trying to land!
A pilot new to self launching must make decisions that the tow pilot has been making, including which runway to use? Is the pattern clear? Do I have enough power to make this takeoff considering the density altitude?
Just my thoughts on trying to teach an old dog, new tricks,
JJ

[Eric Greenwell]

On 12/9/2021 9:08 AM, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 6:41:36 AM UTC-8, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
>> It was a Pik 30 and the pilot was a very nice guy. I shudder every time I think of this mishap.

>>> Fact is, the majority of flights in Eastern NV are in unpowered gliders with ZERO retrieve
>>> range. If you really think a glider with a low retrieve range, like the MiniLAK FES, is
>>> unsafe, you should be informing all those pilots of unpowered gliders about your concerns.
>>> Convincing those "high risk" pilots to convert to motorgliders will more effectively
>>> achieve your Eastern NV retrieve range related death risk reduction goals, even if they
>>> start flying a MiniLAK FES :^)
>>> --
>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
>
>
> I’m surprised no one has mentioned the fatal accident in a Mini LAk FES. Nobody knows exactly what happened, but I believe the crash was a mile north of takeoff site after a 2 hour flight. I knew the pilot and in my opinion the accident was caused by a very senior pilot (88) trying to learn a new ship and a new launch system. His first flight was a near disaster involving an over-heat warning at 800 feet, followed by motor shutdown! Then, on final the motor restarted as he was trying to land!
> A pilot new to self launching must make decisions that the tow pilot has been making, including which runway to use? Is the pattern clear? Do I have enough power to make this takeoff considering the density altitude?
> Just my thoughts on trying to teach an old dog, new tricks,
> JJ

Your points are good, and I do cover your concerns in my "A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane Operation". I don't know if the pilot had read it, but I'll make sure the OP is
aware of it.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" is available from this site:
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

[Eric Greenwell]

On 12/2/2021 12:30 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

> I have a very good friend that has asked me to obtain credible performance information on a Mini Lak self launch electric . Now please don't get the wrong idea, Old Bob, The Purist, is certainly not interested in going electric, I am not old enough to have lost some of my skills and therefore will stay the purist that I am.
> This friend is serious about a self launch sailplane and for some reason the Mini caught his attention. If any of you motorglider guys or gals could offer advice it would certainly be appreciated and I will pass it on to a very good guy. Old Bob, The Purist

Old Bob, please ensure your friend is aware of my "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation". The link is in my signature below. It doesn't cover electric gliders
specifically, but most of the advice still applies.

[kinsell]

The Nordic Gliding article mentioned a Silent Electro pilot who got a
low-voltage warning and spun it in with serious injuries. I know there
was a fatal accident in August in France with a Mini LAK FES where a
pilot spun it in on a landing attempt. For a ship that ought to be easy
to fly, that's not a good accident rate. Maybe this class of ship is
attracting inexperienced pilots, or they've got unusual spin
characteristics?

At Ely, Phil used the motor to find a halfway suitable landing spot, so
he wasn't using the motor just for convenience. He was taking tows
there to conserve battery power, so he didn't have the convenience of
self-launching at any rate.

-Dave

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Thanks Eric, we had a long discussion with the people at LAK and they were very helpful. The cost of the new ship was explained very thoroughly and you even have added cost for the main wheel. So there you have it, I jus do not think these electrics are perfected enough at this point, maybe in the future, but not now. Old Bob, The Purist

[kinsell]

Plus there was a fatal miniLAK FES crash in Germany 2019, on a failed
winch launch.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/223489

[2G]

Then, do you retract your misrepresentation of what I wrote?

The retrieve distance of the MiniLak is an issue when flying in mountainous (even hilly) areas such as NV (eastern or western). This can put you into an even worse position than just finding a suitable place to landout. Naive owners of FES gliders might actually believe the quoted retrieve distance and put themselves into difficult situations.

Electric gliders have been given an undeserved level of reliability by some here that just doesn't match actual results.

Tom

[Herbert Kilian]

I agree with Ed but would caution that short retrieval distances and problems with mountain crossings are also applicable to jet-sustainer gliders. From the limited experience I have from my Utah and NM trips over 6 years, I have seen a lot of jet malfunction, no start and low performance and range issues. These sustainers, similar to the small reciprocating engines found in many gliders these days, will NOT be of much help in unforgiving environments like the high desert. They may be doing the job OK in the Eastern US. At an SSA convention I asked the owner of a German glider company what the zero lift altitude for his sustainer is. As an upstanding German he answered, somewhat hesitantly but honestly, 6,000 feet.

[metca...@gmail.com]

>... At an SSA convention I asked the owner of a German glider company what the zero lift altitude for his sustainer is. As an upstanding German he answered, somewhat hesitantly but honestly, 6,000 feet.
I find that surprisingly low! In mainland Europe (though not in the UK) altitudes are commonly described in metres, not in feet; could that be what your German contact meant to say?
Although 6,000 metres (c. 20,000 feet) would perhaps be surprisingly high!
J.

[Herbert Kilian]

Of course I meant to say I agree with Tom, not sure who Ed is...

[John Galloway]

I have used turbo in a Discus 2ct to climb to about 7500 feet on a retrieve in the Pyrenees. Right now I am looking at the .igc file of a friend's Ventus2CxT turbo retrieve in summer in South Africa. He covered 62km at 69knots average climbing 2540 feet to exactly 7500 feet msl with an average climb rate of 88fpm - and still climbing. He clearly was balancing time saved with climb rate rather than maximising climb rate but it demonstrates that SH turbos will climb higher than 6000 feet even in hot climates.

As for jets, the JS1 jet climbs can climb higher than 10,000 feet but is the starting is not reliable above 9-10,000ft. My experience with it was that it starts well in colder climates with jet A1 but not with ordinary diesel fuel. In hot high South Africa, however, mine would not start reliably with Jet A1 but would with diesel. It started without fail in both climates using premium diesel such as Shell V Power Nitro which was what JS advised me to use when I eventually asked for advice.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 12/9/2021 12:32 PM, kinsell wrote:
> At Ely, Phil used the motor to find a halfway suitable landing spot, so he wasn't using
> the motor just for convenience.  He was taking tows there to conserve battery power, so he
> didn't have the convenience of self-launching at any rate.
>

I talked to Phil yesterday about his Ely experiences. The following are a paraphrasing of
his remarks:


- "Suitable landing spot" is a place I can land the glider without injury, and the glider
can fly a task the next day. I always had a suitable spot in reach when I started the
motor, and when I chose to land. Never looked for or used a "halfway suitable landing
spot", and I don't know what that is.

- Before I land in a field, I inspect it from about 500' AGL, using the motor to maintain
altitude. At that height, it's easy to see rocks, fences, ruts, etc, and determine wind.
If it seems risky, I'll explore nearby until I find a suitable place. Still using the
motor, I'll position the glider to land in the field. At that point, I'll reduce power to
zero, but leave motor armed and the propeller spinning, so I can use it to abort the
landing if I see any problems. At 100' AGL, I'll stow the propeller and complete the landing.

- I always had the convenience of self-launching available when I was flying at Ely, and
would do so on a record day if the towplane was not available. The miniLAK self-launches
from Ely without problems, leaving enough charge to do a low save, abort a landing, or a
short retrieve.

[jfitch]

The ability to do an observation pass and stow the prop on final is a unique capability of the FES system which I had not considered, not as easily available to a pylon engine. But also not necessary: I could do a low pass to check with my 26Mi followed by a normal pattern, but there would be no reason to do it, simply fly to a proper runway (if the engine starts).

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Herbert, since you and Kingfish are Siamese twins I would expect you to agree with him.

[2G]

Another mindless comment from Racist Bobby...