Sailplane opinion
Ramy Yanetz
in the upper 30's to the lower 40's leads the following results:
ASW15, ASW19, LS4 (maybe under 30K), SZD-48, SZD-55, Mosquito, DG-100,
Mini Nimbus, Pegasus, Libelle.
I would like to hear opinions what will be the best choice based on the
following criteria (ordered by importance):
1 - Easy and safe to fly (no unusual behavior)
2 - Performance
3 - Easy to rig (automatic hookups preferred)
4 - Easy to take off and land (off fields as well)
Thanks,
Ramy Yanetz
VW
do is find one under $30 000! Seriously, I think it'll set you back more
than that, but I'd let any competent pilot with over 100 hours fly mine...
and yet it performs pretty well with the 24 and D1. A great machine, and
definitely easier to fly (and better performance) than most of what you
listed.
Beware older machines. The 15 and Mini Nimbus can both be challenging on
take-off. And most of what you've listed (other than the 55) soesn't have
automatic hookups. A BIG negative!
Try to fly as many of them as you can.
And if you enjoy competitions, it DEFINITELY pays to spend the extra on
something competitive. That immediately restricts you to the 55 only in your
list.
Regards,
Andrew
Ramy Yanetz wrote in message <37CC8933...@aol.com>...
Ernst W. Schneider
don't restrict your choice to gliders with automatic hookup, I agree that it
is nice to have but definitely it should just be only one of the deciding
factors. From the gliders I have flown in your list(ASW19, LS4, MOSQUITO,
LIBELLE,DG100) I can recommend the following (remember this is just MY order
of preference):
LS4 - an absolute delight to fly and still excellent performance and
suitable for a low time pilot
ASW19 - nice and easy as well - not performing with the LS4
DG100 - nice
LIBELLE - nice and easy - very light in pitch control, not suitable if you
are quite big, different modells on market
MOSQUITO - good performer light handling , flaps - more demanding than the
ships above - not a starter
havent flown an ASW15 and dont know any who does
havent flown an SZD55, heared lots of good things about handling and
performance
Ernie (LS6) - ewsflys...@hotmail.com
VW <aain...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dV0z3.419$X5.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
Thiemo Gorath
> 1 - Easy and safe to fly (no unusual behavior)
> 2 - Performance
> 3 - Easy to rig (automatic hookups preferred)
> 4 - Easy to take off and land (off fields as well)
I don't know of prices for used AC in the USA, but a 55 won't be sold for
$30k. (Same goes for a good LS-4).
All old planes and the SZD55 have one problem. They are commonly not as
easy to handle as an LS-4. They like to spin after stalls. The Performance
ist okay - I fly a Std. Cirrus and I'm quite happy - it's got a 1:39 ratio
with 16m wingtips and a 1:36 w/o. That's okay for me.
Automatic hookups will not be found on old planes except some Glasfluegel
type planes (G 304,..). All others have manual hookups. But they are more
or less all easy to land in my oppinion.
My suggestion: Try to find the types and fly a couple hours on the
respective AC.
regards,
Thiemo
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thiemo Gorath private: tgo...@cal.ping.de
http://www.ping.de/~tgorath office: tgo...@pcz.uni-dortmund.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Janusz Kesik
It's quite interesting question, I think that there will be as many opinions
as people that will give answer to You.
You have'n t included in Your list of gliders, one which is I think my
favourite. Maybe You haven't heard about SZD 51-1 JUNIOR, maybe You think
that is too simple glider for You... But even if I have over 350 hours in
gliders and I can fly much more advanced machines I still will take only
Junior on all my xcountry I've done this season and the next i think too.
Why?
1) It has excellent thermalling performances. Many times I've succesfullly
competed with Jantar Std, Cobra (i've heard that Cobra is slightly better
than Libelle Std. and ASW-15) or many other sailplanes. They were faster
between thermals, but I took it back immediately in next thermal. I was able
to fly in the thermal at speeds about 60-70 km/h so I could get into
thermal's core, with much faster climb. When Jantar was circling faster, and
Junior slower - Junior has climb about 3-4 m/s, and Jantar have to be happy
if he had 2 m/s.
2) It is really unable to stall it. As I remember, with heavy pilot it won't
stall at all - You may fly with stick completly laid onto Your belly and it
will fly straight at about 60 km/h. If You want to get ot into a spin You
have to help him with rudder and ailerons, and it's unable to make more than
4 spins when pilot is heavy - the glider will go out of spin even if You
have still pulling the stick and pushing Your foot to continue spinning.
3) Features included in point 2 will give a lot of additional safety when
You will try to not outland, by trying to use weak, narrow, and irregular
warmed air bubbles at low altitudes. If it won't be succesful - it has an
big fixed wheel. It's diameter is... 30 cm so You can land on very rough
terrain without any damage for glider. This year I've landed on a field with
quite good "camouflaged" drainage ditch. There was a big noise, and I've
been seriously frightened about glider. I've jumped out of a cockpit, and
started to inspect my machine. Nothing... There was nothing except that the
lower part of tail was very dirty with mud. More detailed inspection after
retrieving glider to out club didn't give more causes for being afraid about
glider's condition. So it's very strong ship for outlanding. It's also
important, that You can approach for outlanding with lower speeds which in
connection with mainwheel disc brake allow You to land onto an "postage
stamp" as we'll say in Poland.
4) Really great airbrakes. Junior has only upper surface airbrakes, and
they' re very powerful. When they will fully go up they provide about 7-8
m/s of descending. It's also important thet they won't allow to cross Vne
which is positioned as I remember at 220 km/h.
5) Huge cockpit with very good planned instrument panel. I've go photo of
simplest version of it. If You want to see it send me an e-mail.
6) Two tow rope hooks: front - for aerotow, and second placed just before
mainwheel - for winch launching.
7) The most simple glider to rig I saw in my pilot's career. All You need to
rig it is (in order):
- insert the pin which is connecting wings (airbrakes and ailerons are
connecting automatically)
- insert the pin which is connecting fuselage and horizontal stabiliser
- connect the elevator
now Junior is ready to fly.
8) The most simple glider to fly. I've been flying Bocian, Puchacz, Pirat,
and Cobra 15, and none of them is more simple to fly. I can say that Junior
is going right by Your hand as an good dog ;-) You may concentrate at
seeking for thermals and looking around which is one of most important
abilities in air.
9) Really great visiblity - You may feel that You sitting on a glider ;-) ,
not sitting inside. It's joke, but it's true - canopy is as huge as cockpit.
In Poland we're joking that Junior will be great to fly without wear and
take some brown onto skin ;-))
10) Quite good L/D = 35/1. It is almost comparable with Jantar Std. and
surely complete demands of one who want to have ship with advantages witten
before.
If You want info from other sources You may see:
Alex's Sailplane Directory at
www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/1850/index1.html
or www.miskin.demon.co.uk/gliding/junior.htm (one of clubs in Great
Britain)
Now it's the end. Choose the glider and enjoy sailing in the air.
P.S. I've done 300 km triangle in Junior four times this year. One of my
friends did 500, in Junior too. Only in this year.
Keep flying!
Janusz Kesik
Poland
lan...@polbox.com
Ramy Yanetz napisał(a) w wiadomości: <37CC8933...@aol.com>...
>My search for a standard glass ship under $30,000 with glide performance
>in the upper 30's to the lower 40's leads the following results:
>ASW15, ASW19, LS4 (maybe under 30K), SZD-48, SZD-55, Mosquito, DG-100,
>Mini Nimbus, Pegasus, Libelle.
>
>I would like to hear opinions what will be the best choice based on the
>following criteria (ordered by importance):
>1 - Easy and safe to fly (no unusual behavior)
>2 - Performance
>3 - Easy to rig (automatic hookups preferred)
>4 - Easy to take off and land (off fields as well)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ramy Yanetz
Mark Hawkins
There is another thread of discussion going on right now about the AC-4
Russia. I am in a similar situation as you and have been seriously
considering it. It is only 12.5 meters but the retract version (c
model) has 35:1 It reportedly has wonderful handling characteristics
and will land on a dime. You should be able to pick of one fairly
loaded and with trailer for 30K. May be worth a look at least. Later!
-Mark
In article <37CC8933...@aol.com>,
Ramy Yanetz <ramyy...@aol.com> wrote:
> My search for a standard glass ship under $30,000 with glide
performance
> in the upper 30's to the lower 40's leads the following results:
> ASW15, ASW19, LS4 (maybe under 30K), SZD-48, SZD-55, Mosquito, DG-100,
> Mini Nimbus, Pegasus, Libelle.
>
> I would like to hear opinions what will be the best choice based on
the
> following criteria (ordered by importance):
> 1 - Easy and safe to fly (no unusual behavior)
> 2 - Performance
> 3 - Easy to rig (automatic hookups preferred)
> 4 - Easy to take off and land (off fields as well)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramy Yanetz
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ramy Yanetz
>
> I own a 55. it excels at all of the criteria you list. Now all you need to
> do is find one under $30 000! Seriously, I think it'll set you back more
> than that, but I'd let any competent pilot with over 100 hours fly mine...
The SZD-55 is indeed over $30,000. I actually meant SZD-59.
Since a good LS-4 is also over $30,000, the next best performer in my
list to my knowledge is the Pegasus. So I'm rephrasing my question to
Pegasus versus other lower cost standard ships (ASW15, ASW19, SZD-48,
SZD-59, Mosquito, DG-100, Mini-Nimbus, etc)
-Ramy Yanetz
Paul Gunn
I have an ASW15 and am very happy with it.
(1) The ship has no negative flight characteristics. I believe there
was an AD rectifying stiff ailerons. Ours was taken care of before we
bought it and I've always found the ship to be very responsive.
(2) The performance is 38:1 and very similar to a std cirrus. The LS4
has better performance and a flatter polar, but a much higher price -
I would say it is worth it however.
(3) The ship does not have automatic hookups. Rigging ease depends
mainly on the trailer - carefully examine the trailer of the ship you
end up buying. Many std cirruses I've assembled will require a third
person to keep the first wing from being pushed out when the other is
inserted. I've never had that problem with the ASW15.
(4) Takeoff can be interesting when you are launching with the
offcenter CG (I think some models have a nosehook). The ship should
not be launched with a tailwind. The main sympton is a tendancy to
roll to the right before control authority is reached - once you have
controls, it's easy to get back behind the towplane. You can also
precorrect by angling the ship a little bit left prior to takeoff. The
ship winches extremely well. The divebrakes on the ASW15 are excellent
and the ship is very easy to land. I haven't yet had the opportunity
to outland - except for other airports - but have simulated landings
over a 50' obstacle in under 500'. The divebrakes fully deployed allow
a very steep descent, which is very useful in outlandings.
Hope this helps.
Paul Gunn
André Somers
Janusz Kesik <lan...@polbox.com> wrote in message
news:WA8z3.14594$Qh1.2...@news.tpnet.pl...
> Hi!
<cut>
>
> 7) The most simple glider to rig I saw in my pilot's career. All You need
to
> rig it is (in order):
>
> - insert the pin which is connecting wings (airbrakes and ailerons are
> connecting automatically)
> - insert the pin which is connecting fuselage and horizontal stabiliser
> - connect the elevator
>
> now Junior is ready to fly.
>
<cut>
Might I add that the glider is very easy to rig it or take it apart with
only two (!) people...
André
Ian Johnston
very very steep when you try to go fast. At thermalling speeds it's much
like a Ka8, but lets you fly between thermals at 60kt. Push it up to 70kt,
though, and you're back with Ka8 performance again. In fact, in many ways it's
a glass fibre Ka8 - and that is praise, not criticism!
I prefer my Pirat myself, but that's mainly because the Pirat has such a huge
cockpit, and I am 6'5".
Ian
Keith Hay
Note that the Mini-Nimbus is a 15 meter ship rather than standard class.
Having flown an HS-7 for 4 years now after coming from an ASW-20, I have the
following comments.
The Mini is a nice ship to fly however it has the workload associated
with flaps, particularly on the takeoff roll. The all-flying tail on the
earlier models takes a bit of getting used to. The C and I think B models
have a conventional stabilizer/elevator.
--
Keith Hay
Cirrus Technology Inc.
Ramy Yanetz <ramyy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:37CC8933...@aol.com...
John H. Campbell
Janusz Kesik wrote in message ...
>You have'n t included in Your list of gliders, one which is I think my
Ditto. Wonderful "first" glider, not a passe competition ship at all but
one DESIGNED for sturdiness, ease of handling, practicality, slow flying and
landing, big airbrakes. Every club should have a couple or similar machines
like L-33 etc. See Piggott's thoughts in "Sailplane Safety" ("Which
Glider?" chapters). --JHC
VW
mine now, and I've spun it twice. Both times it took a serious haul back on
the stick and a kick to the rudder after which it spun in a controlled
fashion. Stick forward, opposite rudder - instant stop.
Ease of handling? My god! it can't get easier. It out-thermals anything in
its class - because of the great handling and light wing-loading. Believe
me, it ain't because of my flying skills!
What sort of abusive treatment do people engage in to produce these spins?
I've never had a problem, at any speed in any conditions. Not even an
incipient.
My suggestion is that the people who make these claims spend a bit of time
with either a psychiatrist or an instructor - or perhaps both.
Interestingly enough, this theory appears more prevalent in Europe than in
the US. I won't hypothesise about why.
<AA>
Thiemo Gorath wrote in message <7O1Vx...@cal.ping.de>...
>Hi,
>
>> 1 - Easy and safe to fly (no unusual behavior)
>> 2 - Performance
>> 3 - Easy to rig (automatic hookups preferred)
>> 4 - Easy to take off and land (off fields as well)
>
Jeff Morgan
<e...@compuma.com> wrote:
> LIBELLE - nice and easy - very light in pitch control, not suitable if you
> are quite big, different modells on market
How big is "quite big"? Would a 5'-11" 190 lb pilot be comfortable in a Libelle?
--
Jeff Morgan
email: substitute mindspring for nospam
Jeff Morgan
pg...@spam.me.no.more.mail.cbf.com (Paul Gunn) wrote:
Paul,
I understand the ASW15 has balsa core wings. What are the maintenance
issues associated with that? How do they hold up over the years?
Richard Larsen
> My search for a standard glass ship under $30,000 with glide performance
> in the upper 30's to the lower 40's leads the following results:
> ASW15, ASW19, LS4 (maybe under 30K), SZD-48, SZD-55, Mosquito, DG-100,
> Mini Nimbus, Pegasus, Libelle.
>
> I would like to hear opinions what will be the best choice based on the
> following criteria (ordered by importance):
> 1 - Easy and safe to fly (no unusual behavior)
> 2 - Performance
> 3 - Easy to rig (automatic hookups preferred)
> 4 - Easy to take off and land (off fields as well)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramy Yanetz
I replaced my L-33 with an SZD-48. It handels well and the performance is
much better than the L-33. It doesn't have automatic hookups. The wings are
a bit heavy and somewhat awkward to rig. It helps if you have long arms to
reach all the controls and instruments. The SZD-48 will easily be under
$30,000 unless you buy a factory rebuilt one like I did. It was right at
$30,000 with a new trailer, new radio, new variometer, fresh paint, new
wheels, new tires, new canopy and new cables.
Dick
N511SZ
1M
I fly mine regularly and I'm 5'11 and over 200 lbs
it's quite comfortable
tim
--
Visit our web site at : http://www.wingsandwheels.com
Jeff Morgan <jeffm...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jeffmorgan-01...@user-33qt8o9.dialup.mindspring.com...
> In article <rspg6b...@corp.supernews.com>, "Ernst W. Schneider"
> <e...@compuma.com> wrote:
>
> > LIBELLE - nice and easy - very light in pitch control, not suitable if
you
> > are quite big, different modells on market
>
> How big is "quite big"? Would a 5'-11" 190 lb pilot be comfortable in a
Libelle?
>
njmike
I also own an ASW-15 and am very happy with it. There is an AD which
requires the spars to be checked for fungus once per year. It's not a
big deal and, to my knowledge, few problems have ever been found. The AD
was issued as a result of a spar failure many years ago on a 15 that
supposedly had been abused in some way (water landing, left out in the
weather for extended periods or something). Be aware that the canopy is
not hinged - the whole thing comes off. It's a bit of a hassle but no
big deal. Price was the prime factor for me when I bought and nothing
was close it it's price range. I wouldn't expect 38:1 however, on a 25
year old ship. My crude measurements show about 34:1.
--
Mike Fadden
ASW15
Janusz Kesik
standard class glider in our clubs in Poland, and have very good opinion. In
our club we have two SZD-41A (one of them is an prototype built in '77)
which is earliest version of Jantar Standard and we had some very good tasks
in this year. I think it will be enough, when I mention 2 or 3 750 km tasks
and a lot of 500's. "SZD-48" is a lot more modern than our "41A", and will
be very good choice if You looking for "value for money". But I suggest to
choose versions "Jantar Standard 3", or maybe "Jantar Standard 2". "3" has
bigger water ballast , and higher positioned wings. Pilots say that it is
much better than "2". Succesor of "48" was mentioned earlier on forum
"SZD-55" which is truly worth it's price.
You may see "SZD-48" Jantar Std. 3 polar at
www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/3717
In case if I have to choose between new "59" and second hand "48" (Jantar
Std. 3)in good condition I probably choose that second, because I think that
"59" is only strengthened "48" with allowance for more aerobatic figures.
That choice is going from thinking that used "48" in good condition,
equipment, and trailer will cost less, than "pure 59", and I'll get almost
identical glider.
Keep flying!
Janusz Kesik
Poland
lan...@polbox.com
>I replaced my L-33 with an SZD-48. It handels well and the performance is
Ragpilot
opinions re: these ships. D. Johnson's Flight Reviews looked favorable also.
And the price range is in the region you were looking for.
G. Graham
Janusz Kesik
have enough deep pocket. Maybe "SZD-55" or SZD's "Jantar Std." if i'll want
to fly really fast.
Now I after my four 300's in Junior this year I'm sure that I'll complete my
500 km task in it.
If I add that a week ago I've gained in "Cu cong." 3000m for gold...in
Junior of course, and that in Poland we usually flying the wave for 5000m in
Junior...
So...
It's gold with three diamonds now...
But 1000 km can't be done in this. Then maybe SZD-55?
Keep flying!
Janusz Kesik
Poland
lan...@polbox.com
John H. Campbell napisał(a) w wiadomości: ...
>
>Janusz Kesik wrote in message ...
>>You have'n t included in Your list of gliders, one which is I think my
Ernst W. Schneider
allow you to fly comfortably on your own....
Ernie
Inoj
>offcenter CG (I think some models have a nosehook
As a previous owner of an ASW15, I must agree with the "tricky" take-off
procedures with the off-set CG hook....after one sad mishap with a tree...we
did install a nosehook...best thing we could have done. Otherwise...it's a
great flying ship.. Joni
Thomas Knauff
Ramy Yanetz wrote:
My search for a standard glass ship under $30,000 with glide performance
in the upper 30's to the lower 40's leads the following results:
ASW15, ASW19, LS4 (maybe under 30K), SZD-48, SZD-55, Mosquito, DG-100,
Mini Nimbus, Pegasus, Libelle.
The initial price is only part of the consideration. You should also consider resale value and ease of selling on the used market.
Bottom line: Buy a name brand.
Another point to consider is the improvements in performance and safety with each new generation. Buy the latest model you can afford.
Also, consider a partnership. If you have $30,000, a partner makes
the latest technology possible. (A new Discus is about $40,000 plus trailer,
instruments and shipping depending on the current exchange rate.)
--
Thomas Knauff
Schempp-Hirth Sailplanes
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
3523 South Eagle Valley Road
Julian, Pa 16844
Phone (814) 355 2483
Fax (814 355 2633
Email: tkn...@earthlink.net
http://www.glider.com/knauff/
david pilati
question.
The old Libelle's are problematic for bigger folks and in my experience
it's not a
weight or height issue but a shoulder width one. I wanted to fly one
years ago at
Estrella and the instructor looked at me (5'10" and 190) and said I'd
never make
it. I went into the hangar and tried to sit in one and found that the
fuselage came
into my shoulders in a very uncomfortable way. Perhaps one can really
hunker down
and get their shoulders low enough so this doesn't happen but then
you've lost a
lot of visibility not to mention the uncomfortableness of the hunkering.
David Pilati
1-35
1M
Libelle is no worse than many sailplanes in shoulder room but to fit you
must slide down in (more reclined)....but it's comfortable
david pilati <dapi...@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:7qrige$k...@newsops.execpc.com...
Bruce Hoult
<dapi...@execpc.com> wrote:
> I have a different experience than a couple of responses to the Libelle
> question.
> The old Libelle's are problematic for bigger folks and in my experience
> it's not a
> weight or height issue but a shoulder width one. I wanted to fly one
> years ago at
> Estrella and the instructor looked at me (5'10" and 190) and said I'd
> never make
> it. I went into the hangar and tried to sit in one and found that the
> fuselage came
> into my shoulders in a very uncomfortable way.
Yes, that's the problem exactly. I was probably about 220 lbs (and 5'11")
last time I flew a Standard Libelle. It performed great but I had to
really hunch down into the seat and flex my shoulders forward to fit and
was pretty uncomfortable after an hour or so. Even if I lost a heap of
weight it would probably make absolutely no difference to the fit.
The Club Libelle, OTOH, has plenty of room.
-- Bruce
chris_...@my-deja.com
Great in summer (tee shirts weather), a snug fit in winter with warmer
clothing on...but try it (wear a jumper). it is only a snug fit at
upper arm height, the rest of the cockpit is fine....and the Libelle is
a really nice glider to fly, with suprisingly good airbrakes.
Chris
In article <brucehoult-05...@bruce.bgh>,
O'Neal
you have a suit size greater than a 42R. (sorry about the reference to a
suit).
Bob.
1M wrote:
>
> I too have rather broad shoulders and weigh 205+/- and am 5'11"...the
> Libelle is no worse than many sailplanes in shoulder room but to fit you
> must slide down in (more reclined)....but it's comfortable
> tim
> --
> Visit our web site at : http://www.wingsandwheels.com
>
> david pilati <dapi...@execpc.com> wrote in message
> news:7qrige$k...@newsops.execpc.com...
> > I have a different experience than a couple of responses to the Libelle
> > question.
> > The old Libelle's are problematic for bigger folks and in my experience
> > it's not a
> > weight or height issue but a shoulder width one. I wanted to fly one
> > years ago at
> > Estrella and the instructor looked at me (5'10" and 190) and said I'd
> > never make
> > it. I went into the hangar and tried to sit in one and found that the
> > fuselage came