Best performing Vario?

[Craig R.]

In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.

I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.

Which unit did it for you?

[jsea...@comcast.net]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. Which unit did it for you?

ClearNav CNv hands down. Work in progress but better than the 302 right now. Low on flashy displays big on the useful bits.

John Seaborn A8

[John Cochrane]

I second the opinion. Fast, smooth, accurate. And the 302 I found to
be slightly better than the (very good) SN10. Legacy cambridge (s nav,
m nav, l nav) were nowhere near as good. Those are from the 1980s and
were great in their time, but that was a while ago.

No mechanical vario should be on this list no matter how good. You
need to look out the window not stare at a vario.

John Cochrane

[Tim Taylor]

Of the older varios I loved the Borgelt B50. Borgelt was a great vario for the time. Not sure what happened that they didn't make the transition over the last few years to the modern systems. B50 is still one of the best values for a low cost panel, about $500 to $600 and a PDA/PNA and it will work nearly as we'll as the new systems.

The ClearNav, V7 and Butterfly are all very impressive. The 302 is a good system (vario, altimeter, computer and logger in one) and could be even better with a software update.

[Jim]

My new ClearNav Vario is magic (even in its incomplete version). Still waiting for the software to be completed and integrated with the ClearNav display. ICG approval is also "still coming".

-Jim

[Dave Springford]

ILEC SB9 electric vario, (but they don't make them anymore)

Bohli vario - not sure if they are still made, but the last time I looked they were rather pricey.

LX Nav V5 or V7 vario

[Wayne Paul]

Tim,

I really liked my B-50; however, it didn't go to Logan with the HP-14. All
the HP-14 instruments went to Moses Lake and will be installed in a Jantar.

Wayne



"Tim Taylor" wrote in message
news:38980fbc-f25a-4f87...@googlegroups.com...

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:

> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. Which unit did it for you?

I loved the LNav and think it hard to beat when tuned right.
I have the new ClearNav vario and it is even better.
UH

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

[Steve Koerner]

ClearNav vario works better than 302 and much better than the V7. It's an excellent product -- I hope they are working hard to finish it.

[Walt Connelly]

You mean there is a vario that can get me centered in and on the top of
a thermal? I'll take two and if it can find the thermal for me in the
first place I'll take three.

Walt




--
Walt Connelly

[mattm...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:10:55 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> ClearNav vario works better than 302 and much better than the V7. It's an excellent product -- I hope they are working hard to finish it.

My favorite until recently was the Westerboer VW900. Great for digging out
from low. My new favorite is the CNv. Eagerly awaiting the updates for it.

-- Matt

[John Sullivan]

I love my Zander. How about time constants? The Zander goes
from .5 sec to 5 Seconds, I set mine to 2 seconds. The filter is for
the audio which i set to to 2, in the middle. I wish i could program
the audio to my own sounds though. Don Rickels in sink, Yes, Yes,
Yes in climb...

[John Sullivan]

[waremark]

So many of you say the Clearnav vario is fantastic. What is it about that vario that makes it better than any other? How do you recognise that it is better? Say, what is better about it than a V7? (I have an LX 7000, most high end gliders in the UK use the LX series, they are pretty good, and presumably the V7 will be the best yet). I fly a club glider with an LNav, and I love that too. Varios like the LX give you numerous settings, and I suspect that what makes a vario work well for me is the way it has been setup. Sadly I am not clever enough to know how to set it up for best results! When other people out-climb me (hopefully not too often) my first thought is never that it is the fault of the vario!

I only once took off with a non-functioning vario (the LNav, water in plumbing). I thought it was odd that nothing was working, and was about to land out when I realised that the problem was the vario not the conditions! Happily I then found a good enough thermal to climb without a vario, and was able to fly back to the airfield. I understand some people are clever enough to fly cross country without a vario. Not me.

The Butterfly sounds like genuine new tech - using accelerometers as well as pressure change. I can imagine that this must achieve a better result, but I cannot imagine how I would recognise that better result. How would I decide whether to spec my next glider with an LX 9000 or to save money and use a Butterfly plus Oudie?

[Peter Purdie]

Another vote for the Clearnav vario. In answer to the question below, the
longer you soar, and the more different gliders (and instruments) you fly
with, the easier it is to decide whether the instrument is agreeing with
what you know from feel the glider is doing in the air. When you are
climbing with other people real differences show up. Horizontal gusts can
make a simple TE vario think the rate of climb has increased, when the
glider isn't in fact climbing at that time. The Clearnav is also new tech
withmultiple pressure sensors, 3-axis accelerometers, and good software to
show you what the glider is doing in reality. In my biased opinion, it is
far better than anything else I have flown with.

The user interface is straighforward, and the advanced extra features
(including IGC recorder) are well on the way.

As John Cochran has pointed out, mechanical varios (however good) are
antiques now - good audio for eyes out of cockpit are vital.

>
>So many of you say the Clearnav vario is fantastic. What is it >about that
vario that makes it better than any other? How do
> you recognise that it is better?
>

>

[Craig Funston]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:

In particular, I'd be interested to hear comparisons of the V7 and the ClearNav from those that have flown both.

Craig

[Morgan]

Sage actually has an Audio option now, though I've only flown with the mechanical version which is very fast to respond. I believe you can even upgrade an older model to get audio.

The L-Nav has a pretty significant lag that takes some human compensation to optimize for. Especially in a big glider like a Duo.

I'm curious about the rave reviews of the Clearnav vario that also talk about "when it's finished" or other statements along those lines. Is it that it just lacks a feature set to compete with the V7 or Butterfly varios?

The Rico vario is up there for novelty. As a fisherman, the clicking sounds like a fish taking the bait softly.

Morgan

[Peter Purdie]

See the company website

www.clearnav.net

The Club version is shipping, the competition version with IGC recorder,
GPS & wind out, navigation etc. is well on in development and test, and
units are user upgradable via the USB input.

At 05:50 24 September 2012, Morgan wrote:
>I'm curious about the rave reviews of the Clearnav vario that also talk
>about "when it's finished" or other statements along those lines. Is it
>that it just lacks a feature set to compete with the V7 or Butterfly
>varios?
>

>Morgan
>

[joesimmers]

I have flown with the new clearnav vario all season and am extremely happy with it. I used a 302 for many years.

If your looking for bling bling and fancy neon colors this may not be for you, but I am confident that I am making less stops in weak thermals than before as the vario ceratainly helps judge what is worth stopping for.

[Tim Mara]

Unfortunately, this question will not be fairly answered as to "which vario
is best" in this forum. What you are going to get is a lot of opinions based
only on what variometers the responders have actually used and possibly what
variometer they used that "they" liked better of the few systems they may
have actually had a chance to use. Few is anyone here will have had an
opportunity to realistically flown with or more over tested in any side by
side comparison all of the most common types, also most will have used
variometers in conjunction with other systems connected to or compared with
what was in place at the time they may have flown with that system.
Clearly variometer technology has changed over the years from the first
pellet variometers to modern pressure transducer and GPS coupled systems.
Many manufacturers today can produce good variometers with very common
electronic parts and devices, added features and connectability to extended
devices will normally be the determining factors in what systems the user
chooses along with a proven history of reliability and support.
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


"Craig R." <n5...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5449fdac-e6cf-4cbb...@googlegroups.com...

[scottandre...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:

> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

I recently purchased the LX NAV V7 vario coupled to the Naviter Oudie with See You Mobile.

This setup is like CHEATING it is so easy to center a thermal. The vario is accurate with multiple averagers, and with the Thermal Assist function, it tells you when and where to move your circling to, so you can nail the core of the thermal.

I've used a Cambridge 302, an LNAV, and several others. But this setup is in my opinion in a league of its own.

Here is a picture of the thermal assist:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou/ThermalAssistant.jpg

[jfitch]

I may be wrong, but I think Winpilot had the thermal assistant first (at least, has had it for 10 years or so) and it still works better than the SYM version: clearer presentation, more information, comes and goes when you want it to.

[6PK]

[6PK]

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:55:02 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

> On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:06:41 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote: > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > I recently purchased the LX NAV V7 vario coupled to the Naviter Oudie with See You Mobile. > > > > This setup is like CHEATING it is so easy to center a thermal. The vario is accurate with multiple averagers, and with the Thermal Assist function, it tells you when and where to move your circling to, so you can nail the core of the thermal. > > > > I've used a Cambridge 302, an LNAV, and several others. But this setup is in my opinion in a league of its own. > > > > Here is a picture of the thermal assist: > > http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou/ThermalAssistant.jpg I may be wrong, but I think Winpilot had the thermal assistant first (at least, has had it for 10 years or so) and it still works better than the SYM version: clearer presentation, more information, comes and goes when you want it to.

Unfortunately I have to second this statement above.
Besides WinPilot I have tried SeeYou and now XCSoar, they are good but don't come close.
What realy is most unfurtunate that WinPilot does not support their system any longer.
I fly with a 302 which I use for audio and rely on a Sage for visual that I find extremely reliable and accurate.

[mbor...@internode.on.net]

On Sunday, 23 September 2012 07:01:13 UTC+10, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Not sure what happened that they didn't make the transition over the last few years to the modern systems. B50 is still one of the best values for a low cost panel, about $500 to $600 and a PDA/PNA and it will work nearly as we'll as the new systems.

Nothing "happened" Tim. We replaced the B50 with the B500 in late 2005 and the B40 (over 1000 sold) with the B400. The B500 and now the B600 and B800 even incorporate GPS navigation, wind and a glide computer. Otherwise they perform the same vario functions but with some extras like the little green light and subtle audio change to tell you when the climb is better than the 20 second average.

The B500 has recently been replaced by the B600(linear vario scale) and B800 (log scale expanded in the +/- 2 knot range) but otherwise similar except for some new features like the visual and audio comparison of the running average climb rate to the whole of thermal so far average, to tell you when to think about leaving, a real Performance Index to tell you how each glide from the top of the last thermal to current position compares to the clean glider at the same weight(helps with "bugs" setting) and the B800 and B600 have
bi-directional comms with color moving map glide computers like XCSoar which means you can make changes on the glide program and have them go straight to the vario and also the other way round.
A Vertica V2 (basically like new Oudie with new bright screen but HALF the price)plus a B600 or B800 main unit makes a very low cost complete X country vario and moving map glide computer system when running XCsoar.

If you want just a vario(no speed to fly) as a standby(mechanical replacement) or for the club single or two seater have a look at our B300 Club vario, B400 vario with standby battery pack, the B700(like B400 but with log scale and both 20 sec and whole of climb average and comparator), the ultimate standby vario which you'll leave running all the time and soon the B900(B700 with linear scale). We've also bench tested the B200 audio add on for mechanical varios as I know some of you won't let go of your favorite mechanical vario until it is pried out of your cold, dead hands :-)

We're also working on some advanced concepts which will make all existing varios totally obsolete but they will be able to be added to our B600 and B800.

I had an article on SoaringCafe about the development of the B700 and B800 a few months ago and you can read more about our instruments at www.borgeltinstruments.com or see Tim Mara's website as well.

I just checked on Google and Borgelt Instruments came up at the top of the first page. If you are looking for a new vario system contact Tim Mara or me direct.

[Tim Taylor]

I will third that! SeeYou Mobile has really missed out on making a better climb maximizer. WinPilot has the best by 10x. I fly the same with a 302 and the Sage mechanical. The 302 with WinPilot is one of the best in weak conditions for finding and centering scrappy lift or very weak lift.

I hope that the SYM guys will look seriously at improving the thermal maximizer and the controls of how it starts and allowing toggling in flight easily.

[Eric Greenwell]

I assigned a PDA button to starting it manually for times it my settings
didn't have it start automatically; tapping the screen would dismiss it,
of course.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:11:57 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
> I will third that! SeeYou Mobile has really missed out on making a better climb maximizer. WinPilot has the best by 10x. I fly the same with a 302 and the Sage mechanical. The 302 with WinPilot is one of the best in weak conditions for finding and centering scrappy lift or very weak lift.
>
>
>
> I hope that the SYM guys will look seriously at improving the thermal maximizer and the controls of how it starts and allowing toggling in flight easily.

To elaborate a little: even the SYM developers know it is crap, and suggest not using it. I quote from their manual:

"We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)"

As Eric has said in another thread, on a motor glider the vario TE is messed up by the prop wash. I find this true on my 26E: there is reported a more or less constant 37 knot headwind, the vario oscillates rapidly and unevenly +/- 6 knots, and centering a thermal requires extreme concentration if you can do it at all. But it can be done, and pretty accurately and quickly, using the Winpilot thermal assistant, even with the crap data! Not a chance with SYM....

The data they collect is identical, but the presentation on SYM is lacking, also the algorithm for starting it and stopping it is bad. On Winpilot, it comes on at about 1/4 circle, and is providing valuable information by 1/2 or 3/4 circle. It dismisses itself within a few seconds of leaving the circle. During the circle you have a graph of climb/time and an indication of MC and average for the day. Very easy to see your trends at a glance. The 3D graph of climb rate is again easy to interpret at a glance, and allows you to judge the quality of the data and make adjustments accordingly. All these are absent on SYM....

Too bad Winpilot is no longer supported. I wish he would make it work on Oudie....:)

[jpg...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 26 September 2012 17:00:54 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:


>
> To elaborate a little: even the SYM developers know it is crap, and suggest not using it. I quote from their manual:
>
>
>
> "We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)"

Not sure how you made that conclusion from the quoted statement from the SYM manual. The SeeYou developers are simply saying that the thermal assistant is there to use if you want it and I do sometimes use it and have no problem. I do not have it set to switch on automatically. I press a button to make it appear and I tap the screen to make it go away. Seems pretty easy to me and I am often surprised to find that it improves my centering of an awkward thermal.

John Galloway

[Scott Alexander]

I'm also surprised that your experience with SYM (See You Mobile for
those of you lacking the coded language) you find troubling to exit
the thermal assist function. All you do is tap the screen one time,
that's it!

Last weekend, I found myself at pattern altitude, ready to landout,
and then stumbled into a 0.3 knot thermal which I probably wouldn't
have been able to center if it weren't for having the thermal assist
function in SYM. That saved the day as it brought me up to final
glide, 26 miles from home. I was 10 seconds from dropping the gear
and committing to a land out. One wrong turn out of the thermal and I
was dropping the gear, so this function proved its effectiveness to
me.

[Tony]

I posted about this on the Naviter forums but never got a response from anyone but myself on the subject. For some reason on my Oudie I can not turn on the thermal assistant. I can change the setting from "Never" to any of the other criteria but when I click OK and navigate back to the setup page it is back to "Never". I just took this as a sign that I need to be able to center lift without the oudie's help but it would be nice to give it a try. Any ideas?

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:46:59 PM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
> I'm also surprised that your experience with SYM (See You Mobile for
>
> those of you lacking the coded language) you find troubling to exit
>
> the thermal assist function. All you do is tap the screen one time,
>
> that's it!

All you do to exit (or enter) the thermal assistant function in Winpilot is ...nothing at all. It does it automatically, at the right moment, without user intervention. I submit that this is an improvement (added to the other improvements already mentioned above).

I'm not saying the SYM thermal assistant is useless. Just that there are better implementations. SYM in general is very verbose (and a little disorganized) in its user interface, compared to other available products. You are endlessly tapping the screen for this or other functions. For example to add a turnpoint, it is a minimum of 9 screen taps on SYM vs. about 4 on Winpilot, and just one on iGlide. Every screen tap is another second with my eyes on the panel and not outside. SYM has a great feature set, but it certainly is not a good example of man-machine interface.

[Tim Mara]

some settings may not function unless the unit is restarted after making the
changes to specific settings
make sure after changing any settings that when you shut down you check the
box to "save new profile"

tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Tony" <abco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9c2bb80-18ad-45b9...@googlegroups.com...

[6PK]

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:46:59 PM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:

> I'm also surprised that your experience with SYM (See You Mobile for those of you lacking the coded language) you find troubling to exit the thermal assist function. All you do is tap the screen one time, that's it! Last weekend, I found myself at pattern altitude, ready to landout, and then stumbled into a 0.3 knot thermal which I probably wouldn't have been able to center if it weren't for having the thermal assist function in SYM. That saved the day as it brought me up to final glide, 26 miles from home. I was 10 seconds from dropping the gear and committing to a land out. One wrong turn out of the thermal and I was dropping the gear, so this function proved its effectiveness to me.

Scott. I don't think anyone labels SYM's thermal assist useless it's just WinPilot's is far more advanced. I have used both and now XCSoar and neither is as relyable as WinPilot's climb maximizer.
I
The matter of fact like someone else mentioned earlier SYM seems a bit over cluttered.
So fay I'm most impressed by XCSoar, I wish they just knock off WinPilot's climb maximizer and they will have a tru winner

[Tobias Bieniek]

we are talking about http://www.winpilot.com/images4/PRO_1.gif right?

actually the xcsoar representation is quite similar, only that the climb values are not drawn in a 3D way, but using a polar diagram. The arrow that WinPilot shows is also available in XCSoar, just not as emphasized and it will get larger once the suggestion to recenter gets stronger. could you elaborate on what exactly you think is better in the WinPilot representation?

[6PK]

On Friday, September 28, 2012 2:22:46 AM UTC-7, Tobias Bieniek wrote:
> we are talking about http://www.winpilot.com/images4/PRO_1.gif right? actually the xcsoar representation is quite similar, only that the climb values are not drawn in a 3D way, but using a polar diagram. The arrow that WinPilot shows is also available in XCSoar, just not as emphasized and it will get larger once the suggestion to recenter gets stronger. could you elaborate on what exactly you think is better in the WinPilot representation?

It is the arrow that makes it accurate and easy to use- more visual. It simply gets shorter as one gets closer to the core and when it just becomes a dot you are at the core.
I'm very impressed with XCSoar but I'm not aware of the arrow like WinPilot or even SYM ?? XCSoar's Thermal Assist works good but when I use it one has to look -head down-rather than just to "refer" to the arrow at a glance keeping heads out of the cockpit. My 5 C worth. 6PK

[Tobias Bieniek]

you can see the current implementation of XCSoar at http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2301/552152_459984440688267_251197415_n.jpg

if you look close, you notice a blue line originating from the center of the thermal assistant. the other end of the line marks the point of the proposed thermal core and shows you the direction in which you would need to recenter. from what you've mentioned in the previous posting I understand that this indicator needs to be larger and possibly in an arrow-like form, correct?!

there is also an alternative implementation proposed that looks like this: http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassistant.png
feel free to comment on that one too. we are always open to suggestions and constructive criticism.

[Eric Greenwell]

SeeYou Mobile uses circles of differing size and color around the
thermal circle to show the thermal strength. It also has an arrow
suggesting the direction to move, and an audio alert when you should
level your wings to move the circle. The circles and arrow can be
assessed in a glance, or the audio alone can be used to avoid even the
need for a glance, all of which seem at least as useful as Winpilot's
depiction.

Mobile doesn't have the chart of lift versus time. How is this useful?

[bruno...@gmail.com]

I have used the V7 this season and have really liked it and love the user interface. I am halfway done installing the Butterfly Vario right next to the V7 so we can all see the differences. I plan on doing a video of the two units in action as soon as I can finish the install. Due to limited time to get out and fly this may take another month or two but it will happen this year.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

[Ron Gleason]

Priorities are needed; fishing to feed the family or creating videos to feed the RAS'ers? Come on Bruno

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sep 28, 12:08 pm, Tobias Bieniek <tobias.bien...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> you can see the current implementation of XCSoar athttp://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2301/552152_459984440688...

>
> if you look close, you notice a blue line originating from the center of the thermal assistant. the other end of the line marks the point of the proposed thermal core and shows you the direction in which you would need to recenter. from what you've mentioned in the previous posting I understand that this indicator needs to be larger and possibly in an arrow-like form, correct?!
>

> there is also an alternative implementation proposed that looks like this:http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassi...

> feel free to comment on that one too. we are always open to suggestions and constructive criticism.

I think the current solution is better. Just make the arrow like in
WinPilot and the aircraft somewhat bigger or replace with the triangle
like in the proposed solution. The new solution is not as good as the
current one, gives less granular information.

[Wheaton]

What happened to a good pair of eyes, a sensitive butt and any of the above varios?

[6PK]

On Friday, September 28, 2012 6:25:17 PM UTC-7, Wheaton wrote:
> What happened to a good pair of eyes, a sensitive butt and any of the above varios?

They are still needed. But what is wrong with progress?!

[jfitch]

The circles used by SYM are very coarse and do not convey much information, nor are they as easily interpreted at a glance. The arrow on SYM does not change length in any meaningful way. In contrast, the Winplot arrow will go from a dot (centered) to a huge thing all across the screen (you are WAY off!), conveying much more instantly. The graph of thermal strength is not useful for centering the thermal, but is useful in deciding when to leave.

On XCSoar, I think the current polar chart is much better than the proposed solutions. The polar chart gives about the same info as the Winpilot cylinder graph, though perhaps not quite as intuitive (up should after all be up, not out....). The arrow though is key, the computer is much fairer at integrating the climb around the circle than your butt or your eyes on a needle. Especially true of a whacky thermal or when your TE is messed up from prop wash. Just make sure the arrow changes length very obviously with lift asymmetry.

[Tony]

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:48:33 PM UTC-5, Tim Mara wrote:
> some settings may not function unless the unit is restarted after making the
>
> changes to specific settings
>
> make sure after changing any settings that when you shut down you check the
>
> box to "save new profile"
>
> tim
>

i always have the save profile box selected when i close see you mobile. this change won't "stick" when i leave the thermal assistant setup box.

[Tim Taylor]

Eric,

I have flown with with both SYM and WinPilot. The 3D graphic, auto start and sound are much better in WP than SYM. I wish SYM would offer a near duplicate of WP climb maximizer. Right now SYM takes two turns to start where WP starts after about 90 degrees. WP's graphic is much better in weak conditions. I have tried both of SYM option, both work OK, but why make so so software when there is better examples out there?

The history graph is extremely helpful. It provides a quick glance at the history to tell if the thermal is maintaining strength or slowly getting weaker. In thermals that are hard to really core you get a sinusoidal curve that helps to decide if you can adjust to find the core or leave the thermal. Again, SYM should add this as an option.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 9/28/2012 6:25 PM, Wheaton wrote:
> What happened to a good pair of eyes, a sensitive butt and any of the above varios?

One good reason is fiberglass construction, modern airfoils, and heavy
gliders. Fly slowly at 1-26 or K-6 speeds, and even a pellet vario can
work well. Blast through the thermal at 90-100 knots, full of water ...

[Steve Koerner]

I sure hope that the ClearNav folks are gathering input here about the benefit of a good climb maximizer feature. I am in agreement with the posters here who think that only WinPilot has gotten it right so far. I do wish that the ClearNav software would include an emulation of the WinPilot climb maximizer so that I can finally ditch the damn PDA from my panel. The zoom-in feature that the ClearNav offers now is nowhere nears as good. As Tim has noted, the maximizer should come on automatically and quickly, then quickly go off when you leave the thermal. The WinPilot continuous graph is way more effective than lift dots.

One characteristic that is also important and not yet mentioned here is the matter of time delay. WinPilot has no discernable delay; whereas other systems, including ClearNav, have a time delay in the display that makes it very difficult to interpret what's really going on when trying to reposition in a thermal.

[Evan Ludeman]

On Saturday, September 29, 2012 4:08:26 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> I sure hope that the ClearNav folks are gathering input here about the benefit of a good climb maximizer feature.

Noted.

T8 for ClearNav

[Michael Clarke]

At 16:28 29 September 2012, AGL wrote:
>
>> One good reason is fiberglass construction, modern airfoils, and

heavy=20

>> gliders. Fly slowly at 1-26 or K-6 speeds, and even a pellet vario

can=20

>> work well. Blast through the thermal at 90-100 knots, full of water ...

>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to=20
>>=20
>>
>So, the question becomes, what software is best for what conditions?
This
>=
>post assumes that the varios input to the software shows true lift
without
>=
>gusts etc.
>
>The PC SeeYou stats showed that on 200 km of distance yesterday, with
>overd=
>eveloped cloudbases as low as 2500 ft AGL, average climbs were as low as
1
>=
>knot or zero, getting blown home on wind. Most "circles" showed lift and
>4=
> knot gusts at opposite sides of the circle, and sink everywhere else.
>Mov=
>ing to one direction to the other resulted in the same thing with a
>differe=
>nt set of short term lift bubbles. That's trying both slow 45 degree
>banks=
>, or back and forth sniffing in the bubbly area that had more lift than
>sin=
>k. When you're that low you have to do what you have to do.
>
>Other people's flights on the OLC that day showed pretty mush the same
>cond=
>itions/results, but I didn't see anyone doing the "sniff around" method.
>
>Sometimes you just have to fly around a bubbly area that has more lift
>than=
> sink, and a 1 minute average lift option on a very weak bubble day would
>h=
>elp. That's about the size of a "sniff around" area, which isn't a
>thermal=
> at all even if there is more lift than sink. "Last thermal" stats on
>soft=
>ware I've used/seen so far stops working as soon as you go straight for
>any=
> length of time.
>
>So, what I'm saying is that the software development and discussion seems
>t=
>o be optimized for classic Texas lift silos on nice days, not for
>overdevel=
>oped low weak days when you'r relying on the circulation from latent heat
>o=
>f liquidization just under cloudbase.
>
>The suggested XCSOAR thermal assistant screen
>http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-at=
>tachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassistant.png would work well for
>these=
> conditions if it would show a one mile sniffing area with bubble
>clusters,=
> even if you're flying back and forth rather than circling. The outer
>ring=
> would still work for the classic thermal situation.
>
>So, I would suggest that Tobias' proposal works for more situations than
>An=
>drzej's objection, since not all of us can assume classic thermal silos
of
>=
>lift on non-classic lift days.
>
>
Try an LX8000 with track set to display vario (colour coding). Great for
sniffing around as you describe, and thermals that shift as you climb.

Mike

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:31:15 +0000, Michael Clarke wrote:

> Try an LX8000 with track set to display vario (colour coding). Great for
> sniffing around as you describe, and thermals that shift as you climb.
>

Agreed about the colour coded track. LK8000 uses the same colour coding
scheme for its track display. I find this is more useful for sniffing
round a thermal than the thermal finder, which I've turned off. As my
normal thermalling technique uses the vario audio to re-center every
circle I don't bother looking at LK8000 once I've found the thermal,
though I may occasionally glance at its thermalling history bar.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tobias Bieniek]

not sure what color profile the LX8000 is using, but XCSoar also shows the track color coded to the amount of lift. you can choose between two different color sets (including the Naviter/SeeYou color profile) and a third one that color codes the altitude instead of the lift.

basically that means that there are two types of thermal assistants in XCSoar. the traditional method with the color coded track on the map and the additional thermal assistant gauge that obviously works best for perfect round thermals and a good vario connected to it.

I personally have used the gauge for about two years now with my XCSoar device connected to a Flarm, that only outputs the barometric altitude and no direct vario signal, and I have to say that even with this small setup I am still impressed on how well the assistant already works. I can't even imagine how perfect it would work when connected to the "best performing vario" that this thread was originally about.

[KiloKilo]

I have been flying with the CNv for a season and can say it is the best vario I have ever had in my panel. I installed the unit at the field on the practice day of the 15m nats - and was immediately comfortable and confident with the CNv - I found it to be accurate, smooth and fast - especially on windy/choppy days or when low in rough small thermals. I don't look at my vario much when flying - I usually just take an occasional look at the averager to understand lift quality - and use the vario audio as primary guidance to find/center the best lift. Although the ClearNav team is developing an extended set of features for the CNv, these are much less important to me personally - I really just want a vario to provide excellent air/lift information - especially when low and in a jam. Based on one season of flying, for me, the CNv delivers.

Ken Kochanski - KK
ClearNav Website Support

[Jim]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:39:44 PM UTC-4, mattm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:10:55 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> My favorite until recently was the Westerboer VW900. Great for digging out
> from low. My new favorite is the CNv. Eagerly awaiting the updates for it.
>
> -- Matt

Me too. Did exactly the same thing and think the VW910 was almost as good as my CNv (for vario/netto function). My old stuff is now on sale on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/130775771120

-Jim

[Andrzej Kobus]

Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
software available (assuming no switch installed)?

[mattm...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>
> software available (assuming no switch installed)?

In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.

The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).

This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a circling
detector at some point.

-- Matt

[Evan Ludeman]

On Oct 1, 10:36 am, mattmckr...@gmail.com wrote:

> This does seem to be a work in progress however.  I'm hoping for a circling
> detector at some point.

Yes, and it's coming, respectively. Probably GPS track based (like
302, which works great).

T8 for ClearNav

[John Cochrane]

On Sep 29, 3:08 pm, Steve Koerner <sjkoer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I sure hope that the ClearNav folks are gathering input here about the benefit of a good climb maximizer feature.  I am in agreement with the posters here who think that only WinPilot has gotten it right so far.   I do wish that the ClearNav software would include an emulation of the WinPilot climb maximizer so that I can finally ditch the damn PDA from my panel.  The zoom-in feature that the ClearNav offers now is nowhere nears as good.  As Tim has noted, the maximizer should come on automatically and quickly, then quickly go off when you leave the thermal.  The WinPilot continuous graph is way more effective than lift dots.
>
> One characteristic that is also important and not yet mentioned here is the matter of time delay.  WinPilot has no discernable delay; whereas other systems, including ClearNav, have a time delay in the display that makes it very difficult to interpret what's really going on when trying to reposition in a thermal.

Simple suggestions for CN maximizer improvement:
1) Automatic on as you start thermaling!
2) Drift the dots with the wind.
3) include a N arrow to help deal with screen refresh delay
4) anticipate the screen refresh time -- paint the screen rotated in
the direction of turn so that by the time the screen is refreshed it's
pointing where you want to go.
5) blank dots more than 10 circles old -- or keep them as track only
but not dots (useful to find old thermals, but the dots all merge to a
green mess otherwise)

Even in its current form the CN display is very useful. I was out
thrashing around in broken up blue thermals all weekend; when you try
some big maneuver that doesn't work out it's very easy to lose track
of where that last good gust was. Even in wind, I got back to several
cores that I had lost with CN.
I also find it useful when you find a big tight core and you're full
of water. The big zoomie and turn leaves you several diameters away
from the original core. Keeping track of the effect of speed on
thermaling moves is hard.
But... don't forget to look outside for birds, corn stalks, other
gliders, etc. ... still better than any maximizer!

John Cochane

[Dan Marotta]

Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
LS-6. Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". Easy
and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
mode.


<mattm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a43c3691-0fc6-4fe4...@googlegroups.com...

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Oct 1, 12:02 pm, "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
> LS-6.  Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal".  Easy
> and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
> mode.
>

> <mattmckr...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:a43c3691-0fc6-4fe4...@googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> >> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>
> >> software available (assuming no switch installed)?
>
> > In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in.  A
> > software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
> > switching at 65kts.  Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
> > now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that.  The
> > change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.
>
> > The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
> > it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
> > a thermal.  65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
> > down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).
>
> > This does seem to be a work in progress however.  I'm hoping for a
> > circling
> > detector at some point.
>
> > -- Matt

It is the 21st century why would I need switches? CAI 302 does great
switching by itself and it was not designed yesterday. As a consumer I
would expect ClearNav to be at least as good as CAI 302. I hope it
happens. It would be nice to have a release schedule at least with
things like electronic compensation and climb/run switching. I would
consider these to be basic features of a modern variometer. I hope
this happens soon.

[Martin Gregorie]

I have an SDI C4 which offers the choice of circling detection (off the
GPS) and speed switching. Circling detection isn't tweakable - it
switched after 90 or 270 degrees depending on (amongst other things) how
tight you turn. Speed switching is highly customisable: you have separate
settings for the speed to switch from cruise->climb and climb->cruise,
which is great as I prefer the climb->cruise to be set a bit higher than
the cruise->climb transition. I prefer speed switching to circle
detection because it allows me to stay in climb mode along a weak street.

The SDI C3 also has a three position switch (up=climb, centre=auto,
down=cruise) which overrides automatic mode selection but this was
deleted from the C4 (actually, the C4 offers a choice of manual, circle
or speed switching but these are all mutually exclusive: it has no
equivalent of the C3's manual override). IMO the C3 setup was better, but
with tuning the C4's speed switching is very good: the vario is in the
appropriate mode 95% of the time.

IME a good move would be to consider using the C3 type setup for the CN:
the ability to adjust the two switching speeds to suit the glider type
and your flying style is an essential feature.

The C3/C4 also operates as a standard TE vario in climb mode and as a
super-netto type in cruise. This also works well for me.

> T8 for ClearNav

HTH

[Craig Funston]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s?

Thanks,
Craig

[Jim]

There's wind data? I haven't found it on mine yet. I thought that was one of the as-yet un-implemented features!

Jim

[Craig Funston]

It's a bit hard to tell from the ClearNav website and from Cumulus Soaring. Sounds like it might not have been implemented yet...

Craig

[Craig Funston]

I'd rather see the team work on winds aloft before thermal centering.

Craig

[uncl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:41:18 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:39:01 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote: > On Monday, October 1, 2012 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, Jim wrote: > > > On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote: > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which unit did it for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > There's wind data? I haven't found it on mine yet. I thought that was one of the as-yet un-implemented features! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > It's a bit hard to tell from the ClearNav website and from Cumulus Soaring. Sounds like it might not have been implemented yet... > > > > Craig I'd rather see the team work on winds aloft before thermal centering. Craig

All are depending upon GPS funtionality which is still to come. Look forward to faster progress now that the team has evolved.
UH

[mark...@aol.com]

Hey John:

How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair?

The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling.

I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it.

Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified.

The solution? FLARM, of course!

Addictions come in many flavors.

[6PK]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:43:12 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> Hey John: How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair? The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling. I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it. Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified. The solution? FLARM, of course! Addictions come in many flavors.

Unknowen. You are certainly not wrong here but not correct either.
Looking, glancing and referring to a "climb maximizer" is NO DIFFERENT than looking, glancing and referring to a vario. I read statements previously in this thread that one should only fly by the sound of an audio and the seat of the pants but I would very much doubt if anyone actually consistently does this. After all I can't remember the last time, if ever I seen a sailplane without a visual vario. The matter affect why would anyone spend in some cases thousands of dollars on a vario if not to use it?! I for one would glance at the vario OR climb maximizer once or twice in a turn and I'm sure this takes away very little from my situational awareness.
6PK

[Evan Ludeman]

I am sympathetic to Mark's worry. It gets worse (for me) when I
consider how many of YOU want real time wx in the cockpit, flarm radar
with glide slope to the best gaggle and goodness know what else. I
think many instrument makers are breeding very nearsighted video ga...
er, "pilots".

The WP optimizer is worthy of a comment because it was reasonably well
designed for minimum pilot fuss. It told you when to roll wings level
to center the thermal and as these things go, didn't require much
attention. I did feel like I needed to go shower after using it, but
as I've said elsewhere, my problem was actually a buggy vario.

The XCSoar optimizer I thought was a joke. What XCSoar did that I
thought really handy was calculate the center of lift and display this
on the map, drifted for calculated wind. This saved my ass a couple
of times when trying to dig out at the end of the day. You know the
scenario: planning your landing, oops here's a thermal, three turns
going up, start to relax a little and whoa!, where'd the little
stinker go? If it hadn't dissipated, XCSoar generally knew where the
center was. Obviously, one had to be zoomed in, real close, for this
to be effective.

The track function in CN sort of works for optimizing when zoomed all
the way in, though it becomes much less useful in direct proportion to
wind because it simply reports lift vs your (2d) gps location
history. I hope people are not over using this. To the extent that
we need a thermal centering tool in CN, I hope we can come up with
something better (it's not the top priority). Imo the current
presentation isn't "efficient" enough. The whole strength of CN is
hitting you with all the info you need at any given instant, at a
glance. We want your eyeballs pointed outside the cockpit.

T8

[Steve Koerner]

Mr Unknown and other concerned parties may not be aware that the Winpilot optimizer provides a beep tone when it thinks you should open up your circle to recenter your thermal. It does a pretty good job of helping out if your attention drifts and you are no longer doing your thermalling work just right. In crowded circumstancs the WP optimizer can be used without looking down at all.

This audio tone feature is part of the WP Optimizer functionality that CN should be emulating. I'm happy to hear that the CN code is being actively improved but please don't relegate this to low priority.

[kirk.stant]

With all this discussion of various thermal centering devices, one should also mention Themi. No pretty pictures, just two bright LEDs and some sophisticated software that helps you find and stay in the center of drifting thermals. Takes a bit to get used to it, but I find that I either make a decision to move just before my Themi tells me to, or when I'm clueless in a shifty core, I just follow the bright lights and they lead me back to the lift. The nice part of the Themi system is that it takes almost no heads down time - you catch the LEDs out of the corner of your eye and adjust pretty automatically.

Combined with SYMs lift dots on your trace, makes it pretty easy (most of the time...)

Plus it's an IGC logger and GPS source. A bit awkward to download, but makes for a good backup logger.

Kirk
66

[Sean F (F2)]

I find the LX V7 Vario to be very intuitive and solid. Price to performance is very hard to argue with.

I considered the ClearNav vario at first but it seemed to take a very long time to develop...which made me wonder. After years of waiting, the CN vario was STILL was not ready at the SSA convention (RENO) last winter where I bought a V7 at a nice price. I knew ClearNav changed software developers mid stream which can never be a good sign.

In terms of performance, all the modern variometers use multiple accelerometers and custom algorithms to maximize the accuracy, smoothness etc of the instrument. They all should be a step ahead of the older generation units. So the folks claiming it is smooth, etc vs. their 302's are not really saying much in comparison to all modern vario's currently available. They are all better, smoother, more advanced than the older vario's. The question is who has used them all and made any quantitative analysis of what one performs better. Answer: nobody has. Subjective at best here.

Also, the ClearNav vario is a bit boring and "plain Jane." Basically a 302 look. No color, no modern UI. The V7 shows me 4 key pieces of vario information (electronic needles in addition to a mechanical needle) at once via symbols as well as numeric information. The ClearNav vario is a upgraded 302 with the same single mechanical needle and a couple numeric readouts. Not a ground up new vario in my opinion. No UI advancements.

It is clear to me that the Butterfly vario is the most powerful vario instrument available, and also the latest to be developed although all of the manufactures are constantly refining their firmware (improving or fixing errors). From what I have heard it is really nice. But at $3500 it is very expensive. An entire LX 8000 or 8080 flight computer (including essentially a V7 vario...V5 in this case) is $5000. I was close to buying the Butterfly.

For what it's worth I chose a V7 and for $1500 bucks it has been excellent. I run it with a Colibri II (GPS) and a Dell Streak 5 running XC Soar. This combination is a exceptional set-up in a racing glider. And also VERY affordable.

Sean
F2

[jfitch]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:43:12 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:

This is why presentation is so important. All of these climb maximizers are working with the same data. WP is doing a much better job of presenting it. On SYMs version, you will be studying the screen trying to interpret it - on WP a 1/2 second glance (quite literally) is all that is required.

This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

> This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.

Kirk

[Dan Marotta]

I don't like the switching in my CAI302. It seems I have to turn greater
than 180 degrees before it switches and, if I roll out for a couple of
seconds to shift my thermal, it will switch back to cruise mode, requiring
another 180+ degrees before switching back to circling mode. ... Or maybe
that's my XCSoar program. I'll have to give it a close look today if the
winds aren't howling.


"Andrzej Kobus" <soa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a2d15bf-bf5b-4ba9...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

[Andrzej Kobus]

Dan, CAI 302 switches after 7s from the time it detects change in
direction (if the change continues). Since when you start turning it
takes a couple of sec to get to the 40-45 deg turn so it is more
likely the switch will happen in less than 90 deg but no more than 120
deg and if your turn is shallow than even in fewer degrees. If you run
your vario in relative netto there is nothing you need to wait for
anyway since the needle already shows you the right value provided you
are flying with speed close to what you need to to climb.

My experience with CAI 302 is very good. As others said it is a very
good variometer.

[Eric Greenwell]

On 10/5/2012 5:56 AM, jfitch wrote:
> This is why presentation is so important. All of these climb
> maximizers are working with the same data. WP is doing a much better
> job of presenting it. On SYMs version, you will be studying the
> screen trying to interpret it - on WP a 1/2 second glance (quite
> literally) is all that is required.

When I was using SYM and it's "thermal assistant", a half second was all
it took to interpret the screen: basically, "Where are the big red
bubbles"? I don't recall ever studying the screen; often, the audio
alert to level the wings was enough - no glance needed. In fact, I found
it most useful when I was distracted doing other things and had little
time to pay attention to the screen or even the vario. By "Things", I
mean stopping the propeller and stowing the engine, keeping track of
another glider or two in the thermal, taking pictures, desperately
looking around for lift indications while attempting a low save - stuff
like that.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[jfitch]

I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.

I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 1:23:14 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

> I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.
> I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

Agree that some of the buttons are a bit small - but getting better. Hopefully, competition from XCSoar and LK8000 will bring some changes. But as far as changing tasks inflight - that isn't done in Europe (and really shouldn't be done in the US, IMHO), so wasn't probably a priority. Easy enough to program several tasks and just choose the one you need.

To add to a task: Task - Tools - Map - touch the desired tp - Yes to append point - OK. 6 taps.

To delete from a task: Task - select tp to delete - tools - Delete Point - YES - OK, 6 taps.

Not great (I used to use WP and do remember that it's task selection procedure was better) but OK.

How can iGlide use one tap to add or delete a point?

Kirk
66

[waremark]

I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good.

Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight.

Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK.

One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned.

Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task).

How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?).

[waremark]

PS Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO.

PS again - if you really want to insert an additional waypoint in the Task page, touch Task (on the Navbox to which you have assigned this action)/Tools/Insert/Ok to insert a blank waypoint, touch that waypoint in the task list and then Keyb to change the blank waypoint to one you want.

I really don't find a material change between WP and SYM (I fly with both).

[6PK]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 4:33:37 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
> On Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:09:48 AM UTC+1, waremark wrote: > On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:23:14 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote: > > > On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote: > > > > > > > On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > > > > > > > I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one! > > > > I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good. > > > > Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight. > > > > Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK. > > > > One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned. > > > > Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task). > > > > How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?). PS Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO. PS again - if you really want to insert an additional waypoint in the Task page, touch Task (on the Navbox to which you have assigned this action)/Tools/Insert/Ok to insert a blank waypoint, touch that waypoint in the task list and then Keyb to change the blank waypoint to one you want. I really don't find a material change between WP and SYM (I fly with both).

Waremark wrote above: "Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO. "
WP does the same thing.The ones you can make are highlighted in green, the ones you might make if slowed down highlighted in yellow.It is fast, easy and again takes the least amount of time looking at the thing. I suggeted this idea to the good folks at XCSoar and they (one at least) thought I lost my mine. Human nature I guess- if it was not your idea it can not possibly be any good.(But they are still doing a great job for peanuts- much appriciated). 6PK

[jfitch]

I don't fly contests, but fly each day as a sort of POST task. I add turnpoints as I decide where to go. This is how many recreational pilots I know fly as well.

The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by Menu>Task>Tools>Map>select zoom>(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t>(click and drag turnpoint to new location)>OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.

On iGlide, you simply tap and drag the turnpoint you want to move. To add another, tap and drag the task segment you want to add it to - a new turnpoint is created and rubber bands the task to fit. To delete a turnpoint, tap and drag it onto the next or previous one. In any case, only one tap and drag. I have run iGlide on an iPhone 4S. Even though the screen is smaller, it is more legible than most PDAs, certainly better than SYM or WP on an iPaq. I haven't flown with an Oudie. iGlide is not yet feature complete, but the user interface is decades ahead of anything else.

[J. Murray]

Here's another vote for V7 + Oudie + Nano. It's been working great for me this summer. I like that it's easy to configure, affordable-ish, and mostly foolproof. It's also a super-cool looking display and a compact installation.

Jim

[waremark]

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>
> The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by Menu>Task>Tools>Map>select zoom>(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t>(click and drag turnpoint to new location)>OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.
>

Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.

[jfitch]

I suppose it does depend. I fly over a large area (roughly 50,000 sq miles), current turnpoint database has something like 140 turnpoints. I have no idea what some of them even are, how they were entered, how spelled, etc. - all a prerequisite to typing them in!

[waremark]

I fly in the UK; I have the full British Gliding Association turnpoint list of 1,200 turnpoints loaded. I have them formatted to use the BGA three letter code as the first three characters of the name, and I show those first three characters on the map - and I would input those characters when I want to change/insert/goto a different turnpoint.

[7C]

On Saturday, 22 September 2012 16:58:15 UTC+1, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

I've had a B400 for a couple of years now and it's a wonderful vario - fast and accurate as well as simple to install. It's not got all the fancy guff that everybody seems to like playing around with but it has got me into plenty of thermals and more importantly helped me get the best climb the whole way up. It also tells you all you need to know audibly without you needing to look at the display constantly and provides a battery pack for backup

I haven't tried the posher models with speed to fly as I go with the Spreckley school of speeds which doesn't require a slavish following of a needle but a good view at the lovely scenery :)

Flown with Zander 940, Cambridge, B50s and a few others but the B400 and the 'improving' tones are the best.

[waremark]

Hi 7C. I shall hope to get you to try the LX9000 this year and see what you think. In the very brief experience I have had so far the thermal centering aid seemed particularly good.

I fear it is the quality of the backside which separates better pilots from the mediocre like me, not the quality of the vario.

[Nor...@hotmail.com]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 10:11:29 -0800 (PST), 7C <7cha...@gmail.com>
wrote:

For pneumatic varios the Sage carefully set up with just the right
restrictor can't be beaten.

[son_of_flubber]

Why don't PNA developers emulate the Themi interface? Brighter screens should make that possible nowadays. Being able to get centering help via peripheral vision seems huge... especially if you're not the only one flying in a thermal.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/themi.htm

[s6]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>

> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

Hi
The Butterfly vario look great on paper. Any actual user with an opinion on it's performance
in this group.
S6

[Richard]

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 11:38:48 AM UTC-8, s6 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > Which unit did it for you? Hi The Butterfly vario look great on paper. Any actual user with an opinion on it's performance in this group. S6

I have about 30 hours on the Butterfly Vario. It is as nice as it looks on page.

It is the only instrument I have seen that looks as good in direct sun as my Ultimate Le flight computer.

They have recently added the ability to use SeeYou .cup files for the goto function, it is in the approval process for the ICG approval for the flight recorder and a compensation menu for the SC speed to fly has been added.

See the YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0IVkHUnWU


Richard
http://www.craggyaero.com/butterfly.htm

[s6]

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

Richard
What about the performance of the vario to show lift-sink with the new technology
Does it deliver?
S6

[Richard]

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 3:13:05 PM UTC-8, s6 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > Which unit did it for you? Richard What about the performance of the vario to show lift-sink with the new technology Does it deliver? S6

I don't know. The Butterfly Vario performs as well as a LX1606 or LXNAV V7 with more features.
I have heard that the pressure sensors on the new varios can read 1 cm of altitude a 100 times per second. I guess the question is can inertial sensors add much to this?

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Tobias Bieniek]

they might not add much to the vario functionality, but don't underestimate the advantage of having the wind measured 20 times per second too. the butterfly vario measures all environmental influences on the aircraft like lift/sink and horizontal wind, and in theory should be able to filter horizontal gusts better than a traditional vario.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Feb 7, 7:40 pm, Tobias Bieniek <tobias.bien...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> they might not add much to the vario functionality, but don't underestimate the advantage of having the wind measured 20 times per second too. the butterfly vario measures all environmental influences on the aircraft like lift/sink and horizontal wind, and in theory should be able to filter horizontal gusts better than a traditional vario.

Having hardware the right hardware is just a prerequisite knowing how
to process data from all these sensors to filter out gusts is the real
difficult part. It will probably take years before really good
solutions appear. These algorithms will become closely guarded secrets.