Car/Truck to pull glider trailer

[towpi...@gmail.com]

Hi All,

I am new to this group and last fall added a glider rating to my ASEL certificate.

I am planning to replace my car this summer and in anticipation of purchasing a glider someday, I would like to purchase a vehicle that would do a good job towing a glider. I also want it to get the best gas mileage that it can while still being a good tow vehicle. I don't want something that is marginal and will make long distance towing a stressful affair, but also don't want a vehicle that is overkill.

What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus trailer?

Recommendations on a good tow vehicles?

Thanks for your help

Bill

[Mike the Strike]

It might be helpful if you told us what part of the world you are in, how far you are likely to be towing and some idea of your budget.

Here in the USA, gasoline is currently around $2 a gallon (about 50 c a liter) and mileage is not as big a concern as in Europe. My Lexus SUV tow vehicle weighs two tons, has a 5-liter engine, gets 15 mpg (US) and will cruise all day at 80 mph with a glider trailer. I tow thousands of miles a year between states. I wouldn't dream of having such a vehicle in Europe with their narrow roads, high fuel costs and shorter distances.

Mike

[Bob Whelan]

Hello Bill,

Good to read you're sufficiently into "the soaring thing" to be considering a
glider-encumbered future! :-) Everything about soaring is a blast,
*especially* the cross-country bits (both flying *and* driving). Have glider
will travel...

As for tow vehicles - working from The Most General toward the More Specific -
be aware there's two fundamental schools of thought in the U.S.: a) bigger is
better; and b) not necessarily...

A search of Google's RAS archives will reveal multiple/recent threads
discussing the topic. Having towed (mostly - not entirely - 15-meter glider
trailers; mostly brake-free) throughout the intermountain west for over 35
years with a (the same, superbly reliable) 2600lb vehicle with drum brakes all
around, that got over 20mpg pulling the trailer - no accidents, no incidents,
and only two (briefly) alarm-worthy "developing situations" - I fall into
school "b)". Not that I ever did it, but the V8-powered vehicle would've
easily smoked the tires had I done even a mild "clutch-drop" so it wasn't
underpowered, either.

I'm sure others will chime in with more specific current vehicles you might
consider.

Have fun!

Bob W.

[Dan Daly]

I have a clamshell trailer (Avionic) for a 15 meter standard class glider; it has hydraulic wheel brakes. All told, with tow-out gear (dolly, towbar, wing wheel, and a wing stand for rigging) it weighs a pound or two under 2,000 lbs. Tongue weight is about 150 lbs. I invested in a good European tow hitch - a Bosal - and am very happy with it.

I tow with a 2006 Jetta TDI Sedan, 1.9 l engine, 5 speed manual. 100 hp/177 ft-lbs torque. I get 43 usmpg normally, and 32 when towing at Eastern US interstate speeds (55-65 mph). Newer Jettas have more power but are more complex.

The trailer with all those incandescent lights drew more power than the Jetta electrical systems liked, but a powered adapter (drawn from the trunk 12v electrical outlet) fixed that - readily available. I specified non-LED lights since the bulb minder on the Jetta has a reputation on alerting on LEDs as blown bulbs.

Thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/a3D1QE2qe8A

[Dan Marotta]

I estimate my glider and trailer at about 1,800 lbs and tow it with my wife's Subaru Outback with 3.6 liter flat 6 engine.  It easily tows over the mountain passes in New Mexico and Colorado, gets mileage in the 30s without the trailer and mid 20s with the trailer.  And, while I'm flying, my wife has an AWD car to use for finding hiking trails in the mountains.

On 3/24/2015 10:03 AM, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:

--
Dan Marotta

[towpi...@gmail.com]

Hi Mike,

I live in Rhode Island and fly out of Danielson CT with the Connecticut Soaring Association, a small but fast growing club. I started Aero towing for them 3 years ago and last fall got my glider add on.

I would be towing my glider primarily to destinations in NH, VT, NY, NJ and PA. With perhaps an occasional trip down the East Coast of the US. So by East Coast standards their would be some trips into the mountains. By Western Standards those would just be foot hills.

Thanks for any advice

Bill

[Tony]

I've been very happy with my 2014 3.6L Subaru Outback in the last year and a half. Pulled empty cobras up to a Grob Twin Astir. Probably about 20 mpg average with a trailer and 26 without. 65000 miles and a couple coast to coast trips. Its been fun!

[David Cole - Oregon]

Bill, I have towed a variety of club gliders with my Chrysler mini-van it tows well gets 20+ MPG towing over the mountains is comfortable and with the back seats removed provides ample space both for gear and sleeping. you might want to consider where you will be going and where you will stay when you get there.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Ahhhhhh...... sorta local to me.

My most recent tow vehicle is a 1998 Subaru Legacy GT wagon with a 2.5L NA engine & 5MT. It does well, has gone from north NJ to NewCastle, VA, Dansville, NY, State college, PA, etc.
Newer cars will get better mileage than mine (I'm low 20'sMPG empty, high teens/20MPG with a trailer).
Usually either an enclosed std/15M trailer, I also pulled a ASK-21 (enclosed trailer) from Elmira, NY to NJ.

The wagon weighs a little more and is a little longer (both help with any trailer towing).

[Roy Clark, "B6"]

List of my tow vehicles for DG-300 in fiberglass top Komet.
Towed to Washington State from Tennessee behind 1987 Volvo 240 wagon.
Other tow vehicles used:
1998 Subaru Outback Wagon
1993 Mitsubishi Montero
2008 Toyota Highlander
To/back from:Nevada (Air Sailing)
California (Montague)
Canada (Invermere)
Utah (Nephi)
Wenatchee (Pangborn) or Ephrata to Arlington for annuals many times
(over Stevens Pass: 4018ft/1225m or
Snoqualmie: 3022ft/921m and Blewett: 4100ft/1250m Passes)
All worked OK, across mountain passes, usually at 60-67 mph, except ALWAYS 57 mph on speedometer in California, etc., with acceptable gas mileage.
BTW, over 1000 mile RT, difference between 25 mph and 30 mph
is less than 7 gallons of petrol.
Better visibility and PIC feeling for me was in Montero or Highlander; but each of the above was fun and felt safe, and your feelings may vary.

[Bruce Hoult]

I've towed gliders up to DG1000 and Grob twins with a '95 Legacy Wagon and my current '97 Outback wagon. Both with 2.5l non-turbo. The Legacy was automatic, the Outback is a manual. The manual is better.

I've towed the Grob from Auckland to Wellington, and the DG multiple times between Wellington and Taihape and Wellington and Masterton/Greytown, both of which involve some decent hills.

Glider towing is more about stability than about power. Even if you have to go slowly up one or two hills it probably only costs you a couple of minutes on the complete journey time. However with the 2.5l Subarus I've never had a problem keeping up with the speed limit or the traffic, whichever is slower. Less power would be fine as long as you don't get into cooling problems.

Stability mostly seems to mean the tow ball being as close as possible to the rear axle, and having decently solid rear suspension.

The new(ish) Subaru XV might well make an even better tow vehicle than the Outback, as it has a very short rear overhang even though it has less power. The CVT would be interesting.

With a 100 km/h (65 mph) speed limit I use about 8 l/100 km empty, and 11 l/100km towing the DG1000. Google tells me that's 29.4 mpg and 21.4 mpg in USA units.

[George Haeh]

Subaru Forester fine for single seaters.
But I wrote off my 2004 with a trailer
jackknife pulling a Puch.

Hadn't yet read "If the combination starts
to sway, hold the wheel straight and
brake..."

I've seen a DG-1000 giving a pickup a
hard time. Traffic was scared to pass it
as the trailer was weaving.

My 2008 gets better mileage pulling a
fibreglass top trailer than an metal top.

If you go for a car instead of a truck,
consider a manual.

A CVT might be an expensive experiment.

North American tow ratings can be much
more restrictive for the same vehicle
compared to Australia or Europe where I
wouldn't be surprised to see a Smart Car
pulling a glider.

[Pierre Vav]

I use a 90 Cherokee for that job:
not too big, enough power, inexpensive to maintain, inexpensive to buy.

And the ugly old Cherokee is dedicated to gliding: all my stuff remains in the car, and I'm not afraid when time comes to pick up the glider in the middle of crops.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 7:00:06 PM UTC+13, George Haeh wrote:
> Subaru Forester fine for single seaters.
> But I wrote off my 2004 with a trailer
> jackknife pulling a Puch.
>
> Hadn't yet read "If the combination starts
> to sway, hold the wheel straight and
> brake..."
>
> I've seen a DG-1000 giving a pickup a
> hard time. Traffic was scared to pass it
> as the trailer was weaving.

With a relatively light tow vehicle you do have to do things right. Maximum permitted pressures all round in car and trailer tyres. Make sure the trailer weight balance is good.

The only combination that has given the Subaru any trouble at all was a Grob twin in a massively heavy and un-aerodynamic rectangular steel and corrugated iron trailer. It was too unstable to tow at more than 85 - 90 km/h, and I got pretty good at stopping the weaving -- watch the mirror and when you see the trailer go right (for example) give a little quick jerk of the steering wheel to the left and then straight again, to get the car lined up straight with the trailer. Then *gently* turn back the other way before you go out of your lane. Extremely effective once you practice a bit.

I towed that Grob to another club for them to borrow/evaluate for a couple of weeks. One of their members towed it back with a large SUV (Bighorn?) and complained that it was diabolical.

[Nigel Pocock]

Towing glider trailers can be readily split into two areas. retrieves where
you might have to drive down farm tracks and accross fields and road
towing.
For retrieves nothing beats a 4x4 with plenty of ground clearance. The
limiting factor is usually the trailer.
For road towing a car is usually better as they are much more economical to
run.
Size and weight are important but not at the expense of decent suspension.
For example I had a very interesting 30 seconds with a Nissan Navara towing
a K21 in a cobra tailer. The same trailer behind my VW Passatt was much
more stable. I put this down to the Navara having leaf springs on the rear
with poor lateral location of the axel. The Passatt with modern suspension
was much more precise.
So far this year I have driven 3500 miles across europe towing a variety of
trailers in the passat averaging 43mpg (36 us mpg) The navara was in the
mid 20s.

[Sarah]

Timely thread, gearing up for northern hemisphere spring.

I've towed with a Honda Accord ( V6 manual ). It's relatively heavy at 3400 lb, plenty of power and tows my old Komet ( around 2000 lb ) stably up to 70 mph. I've only been nervous once - coming down I70 into Denver with a steep downgrade. Slowed way down and it was OK.

The trailer surge brake has been inop for years -Any one have suggestions on where I could take it for overhaul or replacement with electric brakes? Local garage? Or, is even necessary? I really should check for trailer tongue corrosion and double check the hitch mount points.



On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 11:04:01 AM UTC-5, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
..

[Dan Marotta]

Since you mentioned Denver, a quick google search for "trailer repair denver" yielded several prospects.  Give them a call and ask them about surge brakes.  Good luck!

--
Dan Marotta

[Mark Schneider]

Hi Bill,

Once you have narrowed down your search, look at the towing capacities of the vehicles. Some will even say (ie. Honda Civic), "not recommended for towing". I am on the bubble with mine in respect to towing (2.5l Outback) but with the bigger engine, I could tow more (bigger brakes?) and with trailer brakes, I could tow more. Anything can tow going down the highway at 60-70 mph but not anything can stop/slow down in time.

mas

[Dan Daly]

Google "Adjusting the wheel brakes of your Cobra trailer" and you get a pdf with lots of pictures on adjustment of the alko running gear:
http://www.cobratrailer.com/Bremseinstellung_mit_Bildern_englisch_1.pdf

Dan

[SoaringXCellence]

Link is inop (404 not found)

[mattm...@gmail.com]

I found it pretty easily from the website. Look under the "Manuals" tab.

[Mike I Green]

I used a 32.5 foot long Motor Home. AS I grew older, ease and comfort
became more important to me. The driving didn't bother me.

MG

--
Mike I Green

[Peter von Tresckow]

YES you want working surge brakes. I have a good working setup on my tube
trailer for my Libelle. I tow with a Mazda protege5 wagon (4 cylinder
manual), and having the surge brakes makes a real difference. Stability is
good. Had it up to 80 once while not paying attention.

You can tow with a small car just have a good trailer with brakes. The
German tow ratings usually are cut in half for trailers without brakes.

Peter

[Dave Springford]

The CVT is an awesome transmission for towing. My Nissan Murano has a CVT, great stability and very short rear axle to hitch distance. The CVT smooths out the power delivery to the wheels. There is no jerking going up hills like when the automatic transmissions downshift. Just a slow and steady increase in RPM. A great towing vehicle.

Unfortunately, for the new 2015 model, Nissan has reduced the rated towing capacity to 1500 lb. I guess I won't be buying another one.

Anyone at Nissan listening? I won't be buying another one unless you fix that!

My wife has a Subaru XV and it is rated for 1500 lb and we found that an ASW-27 in a Cobra trailer was getting to the limit for the XV. Probably fine for short retrieves on back roads at 40-50 mph, but not out on the highway at 60-70.

[airr...@gmail.com]

My '04 Chevy Blazer tows my Cobra trailer just fine. I have to remind myself that the trailer is back there.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 12:33:12 PM UTC+13, Dave Springford wrote:
> My wife has a Subaru XV and it is rated for 1500 lb and we found that an ASW-27 in a Cobra trailer was getting to the limit for the XV. Probably fine for short retrieves on back roads at 40-50 mph, but not out on the highway at 60-70.

According to Subaru Australia, the XV is tow rated for 1400 kg, not lb.

http://www.subaru.com.au/car-advice/knowing-your-towing-capacity

[Dave Springford]

From Canadian Subaru Website:
http://www.subaru.ca/WebPage.aspx?WebSiteID=282&WebPageID=19601&Range=XV%20Crosstrek&ModelYear=2015

Measurements: Towing Capacity
Maximum weight (kg) with trailer brakes (Review Owner's Manual for details)680


Very strange how the same car has different ratings on different continents.

[7C]

I think you'll find the different in ratings is a function of different test requirements in each country. My understanding is that in some countries (can't remember which) it is simply how heavy a trailer you can pull from a stationary start on a specific gradient.

As such it really doesn't tell you much at all about how it tows. Best place for information on this stuff is the caravan sites. It's not like most glider trailers are very heavy.

[k...@cni.net]

Favorite tow car: Saab 900T

Current tow car: Hyundai Tucson - 2010, front wheel drive, 6 speed manual, 1000 lb tow capacity with out trailer brakes, 2000 lb tow capacity with trailer brakes

Great around town car. Would be excellent, if not for rearward visibility issues. 26-27 mpg freeway at normal speeds (around 75 mph). 22-23 mpg towing the trailer.

Adequate tow car. Normally tow Avionic/SZD 55-1 combo with an all up weight of 1700 lbs. (Yes, I did weigh it.) Have also towed Jantar Junior/Gehrline, 2-33/open trailer, 1-26/open trailer and single seat Grob/tube type trailer. Have towed to Montague, Ephrata, AirSailing, Logan, and Nephi. Have towed logging roads and freeway up to (shhhh! don't tell anyone) 90 mph. Front wheel slippage can be a problem towing up steep dirt roads in the rain. Recommend all wheel drive if you land off field a lot.

P9

[Dennis]

35 years of towing with a variety of vehicles , now a Nissan 4x4 frontier, best ever all round vehicle

[dhaluza]

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 12:04:01 PM UTC-4, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am new to this group and last fall added a glider rating to my ASEL certificate.
>
> I am planning to replace my car this summer and in anticipation of purchasing a glider someday, I would like to purchase a vehicle that would do a good job towing a glider. I also want it to get the best gas mileage that it can while still being a good tow vehicle. I don't want something that is marginal and will make long distance towing a stressful affair, but also don't want a vehicle that is overkill.
>
> What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus trailer?
>
> Recommendations on a good tow vehicles?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Bill

You don't say where you are, but I can only comment on US anyway. I have a Janus C two-seater in a 3300lb, 35' tube trailer. Towed it with a few different vehicles, and can say that the best was a Jaguar X-type sedan and the worst was an SUV. The big trailer is prone to Von Kármán vortex shedding (look it up) and it just plays wag the dog with an SUV, making for a white knuckle ride.

In the U.S. all the car mfg. dropped their car tow ratings to push you into their more profitable light truck and SUV lines. This is really apparent when you look at European cars that have much higher tow ratings at home vs. the same car in the U.S. The exceptions a while back were Saab, Volvo and Jaguar which didn't have SUVs in their lines. The only option now is Volvo, and I would recommend you look at the S60 if that fits your needs.

The key to towing a long trailer is not the weight of the tow vehicle--it's the distance from the hitch to the rear axle and a low C.G. Also having low profile passenger car as opposed to high profile light truck tires helps control sway.

But as mentioned earlier in this thread, this can make it more difficult to get into a farm field. Personally, I would forego that, and pay the farmer to tow the glider out to the road/driveway with the tractor, and get a vehicle optimized for the road.

[dhaluza]

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 12:04:01 PM UTC-4, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am new to this group and last fall added a glider rating to my ASEL certificate.
>
> I am planning to replace my car this summer and in anticipation of purchasing a glider someday, I would like to purchase a vehicle that would do a good job towing a glider. I also want it to get the best gas mileage that it can while still being a good tow vehicle. I don't want something that is marginal and will make long distance towing a stressful affair, but also don't want a vehicle that is overkill.
>
> What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus trailer?
>
> Recommendations on a good tow vehicles?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Bill

The other thing mentioned was braking, and obviously more is better. You definitely want working surge brakes or better yet electric brakes on your trailer. Naturally trailer brakes will reduce your stopping distance, and that's a good thing. But it will also help keep things straight by applying brakes in the back, which will help keep the trailer from trying to pass the tow car in a panic stop.

As far as the tow car, bigger brakes are better. Many American light trucks and SUVs have relatively small brakes compared to European sedans. As mentioned earlier in this thread, you don't necessarily need a big engine to tow a glider trailer--if you need to slow down on the climbs it won't make a big difference in your travel time (especially if it saves you a refueling stop). But you may need to get the bigger engine to get the bigger brakes. So pay attention to that when picking your vehicle. It's not on the spec sheets, so you need to look at the different models, and if you see bigger front rotors, or rear discs vs. drums, I would take the more expensive model for towing.

[Dave Springford]

A good article about the Euro/ N. American ratings differences here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/it-isnt-just-trucks-and-suvs-that-have-to-be-used-for-towing/article23686902/

[ND]

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 1:42:40 PM UTC-4, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 12:24:01 PM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:

> > On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 9:04:01 AM UTC-7, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I am new to this group and last fall added a glider rating to my ASEL certificate.
> > >
> > > I am planning to replace my car this summer and in anticipation of purchasing a glider someday, I would like to purchase a vehicle that would do a good job towing a glider. I also want it to get the best gas mileage that it can while still being a good tow vehicle. I don't want something that is marginal and will make long distance towing a stressful affair, but also don't want a vehicle that is overkill.
> > >
> > > What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus trailer?
> > >
> > > Recommendations on a good tow vehicles?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help
> > >
> > > Bill
> >

> > It might be helpful if you told us what part of the world you are in, how far you are likely to be towing and some idea of your budget.
> >
> > Here in the USA, gasoline is currently around $2 a gallon (about 50 c a liter) and mileage is not as big a concern as in Europe. My Lexus SUV tow vehicle weighs two tons, has a 5-liter engine, gets 15 mpg (US) and will cruise all day at 80 mph with a glider trailer. I tow thousands of miles a year between states. I wouldn't dream of having such a vehicle in Europe with their narrow roads, high fuel costs and shorter distances.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I live in Rhode Island and fly out of Danielson CT with the Connecticut Soaring Association, a small but fast growing club. I started Aero towing for them 3 years ago and last fall got my glider add on.
>
> I would be towing my glider primarily to destinations in NH, VT, NY, NJ and PA. With perhaps an occasional trip down the East Coast of the US. So by East Coast standards their would be some trips into the mountains. By Western Standards those would just be foot hills.
>
> Thanks for any advice
>
> Bill

Hey bill,

Welcome to soaring dude! I am not sure what kind of price range you're looking in, but like dan morotta said, a subaru seems like a good compromise of alot of factors. I used to have one, and it was great in the snow for northeastern winters. the AWD also helped get in and out of fields. the gas milage was pretty good all things equal, and it did a good job of towing. (I took our club's discus cs to 2 or 3 contests with it every year for about four years).

-Andy

[Greg Delp]

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 12:04:01 PM UTC-4, towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am new to this group and last fall added a glider rating to my ASEL certificate.
>
> I am planning to replace my car this summer and in anticipation of purchasing a glider someday, I would like to purchase a vehicle that would do a good job towing a glider. I also want it to get the best gas mileage that it can while still being a good tow vehicle. I don't want something that is marginal and will make long distance towing a stressful affair, but also don't want a vehicle that is overkill.
>
> What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus trailer?
>
> Recommendations on a good tow vehicles?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Bill

Bill,
Just stick with your blue Subaru. It will look great pulling a glider trailer and you can put the money towards the glider. Or if you have to get a new car almost all Subaru's newer body styles have grown larger over the last redesigns. I think most any of them would be just fine pulling a single seat glider. So what kind of glider are you getting??? Hurry up I want to fly cross country together. Have you found a replacement tow pilot to fill your empty seat in the Pawnee?

[JS]

Some information from a post several years ago....
I towed a fairly heavy trailer - Nimbus 3 in a Pfeiffer - with three different cars. Two in southwestern USA, one in Australia.
2000 Subaru Outback 2.5l AWD 5-speed.
1997 Chevy Tahoe 5.7l 4WD automatic.
1996 Holden Commodore 3.0l RWD automatic. Vauxhall design similar to Chevy Malibu.
The Tahoe was great at starts and stops. Bought it before putting brakes on the trailer, previously too much for the Subaru. The Tahoe did not fare well in a crosswind. Needs the horsepower to drag it's own weight around.
The Holden was great on flat roads, but marginal up hills. Too much weight for the power. Overheated when towing a Duo.
The Subaru was great at everything except uphill starts. The most fun to drive without a trailer. Also best build quality. Initially concerned about the passive rear wheel steering, but not a problem at all.
HOWEVER...
Subarus are famous for head gasket problems. Mine blew gaskets twice. First time replaced heads, second the engine. At over 100,000 miles should have scrapped it, but liked the car too much. The car was worth about what the rebuilt engine cost.
Towing a heavy trailer up and down hills (5 to 8000' passes) in the summer will also damage the viscous coupler in the AWD. Found this out with an ASH26E, which otherwise towed perfectly at undisclosed "highway speeds".
Last I spoke with mechanics at Subaru, the manufacturer had not done anything significant to the head gasket design, and the AWD is the same even for the 6-cylinder models. That may have changed in the last few years.
In my opinion an AWD wagon is great for towing gliders. My current search centers around the (unavailable in USA) Audi Allroad 2.0l TDI or Q5 Quattro TDI, (currently unavailable in USA) VW Golf AWD TDI, or more likely MB GLK250 Bluetec AWD. Not cheap, neither was what it'll tow. Need to look at the Mazda CX5 AWD.
Jim
Currently towing with 2008 Toyota RAV4 3.5l FWD. Tows well, personally prefer AWD.

[marc....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 6:24:01 AM UTC-7, Greg Delp wrote:
> Or if you have to get a new car almost all Subaru's newer body styles have grown larger over the last redesigns.

I'm looking for the same type of tow vehicle. The Subaru Impreza, CrossTrek, and Forester all use the same platform, with 1500 lb towing capacity stated in the manuals. Might be good enough for older standard class gliders and trailers, but modern non-SL single seaters in Cobras are (at least in my experience) 1700 to 1900 lb. Outback with the 2.5 engine has stated 2700 lb capacity, 3.6 engine 3000 lb.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, April 3, 2015 at 5:26:26 AM UTC+13, JS wrote:
> The Subaru was great at everything except uphill starts.

I've never had a problem, but then my 2.5l 1997 Grandwagon (Outback) has a ten speed box. (the normal 5 speeds are in as near as dammit to 1 : 1.414 : 2 : 2.828 : 4 ratios, and the 2nd lever splits the gap by dropping the ratio by about 20%.

> The most fun to drive without a trailer. Also best build quality. Initially concerned about the passive rear wheel steering, but not a problem at all.
> HOWEVER...
> Subarus are famous for head gasket problems. Mine blew gaskets twice. First time replaced heads, second the engine.

The 90's ones definitely had weak head gaskets from the factory. They *all* blow eventually. It's not all that expensive to change them (~$1k) if you do it before you damage something else. When buying used, just factor that into the price. It's the *only* real weakness in the car.

In my experience, once they're fixed (they use WRX gaskets here) they stay fixed.

[Andrzej Kobus]

All Forrester's and Outbacks up to model year 2010 have gasket problem except turbo models and 3.6L engines. I agree that it is the only weakness of Subaru but the cost to fix at reputable shop will run you more like $2k provided no additional damage. The newest models seem to have this problem fixed as the block was redesigned.

[Dave Walsh]

I think you will find that the head gasket problem only
relates to the flat-4 boxer engine. Get the 3 litre flat-6
engine in the Legacy/Outback; a further advantage to this
engine is that it has proper chain driven camshafts not the
mickey mouse rubber bands used in the flat-4 (and by many
other so called "premium" makes).
The 3 litre H6 engine only has one drawback, it's thirst. Over
76K miles, including quite a lot of towing, i've averaged 23.5
mpg (UK gallons). UK owners also get stung by the road tax;
luckily no road tax here in socialist France!

At 23:37 02 April 2015, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 7:11:04 PM UTC-4, Bruce
Hoult wrote:
>> On Friday, April 3, 2015 at 5:26:26 AM UTC+13, JS
wrote:
>> > The Subaru was great at everything except uphill
starts.

>>=20

>> I've never had a problem, but then my 2.5l 1997
Grandwagon (Outback) has

>=

>a ten speed box. (the normal 5 speeds are in as near as
dammit to 1 :

>1.414=

> : 2 : 2.828 : 4 ratios, and the 2nd lever splits the gap by
dropping the

>r=
>atio by about 20%.
>>=20

>> > The most fun to drive without a trailer. Also best build
quality.

>Initi=

>ally concerned about the passive rear wheel steering, but
not a problem at

>=

>all.
>> > HOWEVER...
>> > Subarus are famous for head gasket problems. Mine
blew gaskets twice.

>F=

>irst time replaced heads, second the engine.

>>=20

>> The 90's ones definitely had weak head gaskets from the
factory. They

>*al=

>l* blow eventually. It's not all that expensive to change
them (~$1k) if

>yo=

>u do it before you damage something else. When buying
used, just factor

>tha=

>t into the price. It's the *only* real weakness in the car.

>>=20

>> In my experience, once they're fixed (they use WRX
gaskets here) they

>sta=

>y fixed.
>
>All Forrester's and Outbacks up to model year 2010 have
gasket problem

>exce=

>pt turbo models and 3.6L engines. I agree that it is the
only weakness of

>S=

>ubaru but the cost to fix at reputable shop will run you
more like $2k

>prov=

>ided no additional damage. The newest models seem to
have this problem

>fixe=

[Andrzej Kobus]

Only 4 cylinder non turbo, turbo is fine.

[chandrik...@gmail.com]

Hwyrv is the best place for New & used RVs sales and service. We are the one stop solution for all your RV needs includes sales, service, parts and dealerships for more details check here http://www.hwyrv.com/

[Bob Kuykendall]

> What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus
> trailer?

A few data points (all empty weights):

Minden Fab, Schreder, and similar aluminum semi-monocoque cigar-tube trailers generally run 600-750 lbs. Schreder with aluminum floors are the lightest of these, but also the most tender since Dick put the hoops 4' OC to save parts.

Cobra, Komet, and similar clamshells generally run around 900 lbs. Later ones seem heavier than earlier ones. Aluminum tops are the lightest.

Homebuilt trailers run the gamut. Made with 1/4" plywood and framed with 2x4 and 2x2 lumber, probably around 1200 lbs. Offhand I don't know how many kg that is, but I can say from experience it's a decent amount of BTUs. My Steve Smith fiberglass-skinned steel tube truss with molded fiberglass top clocked in at 375 lbs. A customer's homemade clamshell is about 1400 lbs.

My tow rig of choice these days is a 1999 Lexus RX300. I got it for the cost of a Subaru head gasket job, it has the bulletproof 1MZ-FE V6, and it has the AWD we need in a snow car. Given a choice, I'd have gotten an AWD Sienna (same running gear with a minivan body), but those are priced about 2.5x the first-gen RXs.

--Bob K.

[mikesta...@gmail.com]

My Mazda CX5 twin turbo diesel is an excellent tow car, and very economical. Stability is great, towing up to 160km/h steady as a rock.
I get 30 mpg or better (10L/100km for those of you in civilised countries).

[Martin Gregorie]

Is that US mpg or Imperial mpg?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[kinsell]

On 05/24/2018 05:32 PM, mikesta...@gmail.com wrote:
> My Mazda CX5 twin turbo diesel is an excellent tow car, and very economical. Stability is great, towing up to 160km/h steady as a rock.
> I get 30 mpg or better (10L/100km for those of you in civilised countries).
>

Is that pulling a 107.14 stone trailer over an 11,000 foot pass with a
6% grade?

[mikesta...@gmail.com]

Imperial, average over 2500km long trip

[mikesta...@gmail.com]

Its an average over 2,500km of all different terrains, including steep hills, towing a 750kg tralier.
420nm of torque gets you a long way (310 ft lb).

[Steve Leonard]

On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 4:55:50 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

> My Steve Smith fiberglass-skinned steel tube truss with molded fiberglass
> top clocked in at 375 lbs.

> --Bob K.

375 lbs, Bob? Seems way too low. An Eberle I have for a 301 Libelle came in at about 660. Axle, wheels and tires can push upwards of 175.

Just asking...

Steve Leonard

[George Haeh]

My 2006 Subaru Forester manual gets 9.6 km/l towing compared to about 11.5 km/l in the summer.

The 2008 SF automatic ate more gas with all the downshifts pulling a trailer.

[Scott Manley]

The 2017 Tesla Model X I am leasing is a amazing tow vehicle. Other than the range reduction (about 200 mile max between charges) that is more obvious when driving a vehicle that makes you aware of your energy consumption, its 5500 lb weight, low center of gravity, 550 bhp, all-wheel drive, and 500 ftlb of torque instantly available at all speeds (starting at zero) make it a great tow vehicle for my Cobra 30 ft all-aluminum 15m trailer. If I don't look back, I don't even know its back there.

The 200 hundred mile max between charges is conservative, ensuring 20% of battery capacity on arrival. With Tesla's nation-wide network of fast chargers located 50-150 miles apart along all the interstate highways, long distance travel is not problem, and I can usually be recharged in 30 minutes, about the same amount of time it takes be to rest, stretch, and pee.

[Scott Manley]

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 8:47:37 AM UTC-4, Scott Manley wrote:
> The 2017 Tesla Model X I am leasing is a amazing tow vehicle. Other than the range reduction (about 200 mile max between charges) that is more obvious when driving a vehicle that makes you aware of your energy consumption, its 5500 lb weight, low center of gravity, 550 bhp, all-wheel drive, and 500 ftlb of torque instantly available at all speeds (starting at zero) make it a great tow vehicle for my Cobra 30 ft all-aluminum 15m trailer. If I don't look back, I don't even know its back there.
>

> The 200 hundred mile max between charges is conservative, ensuring 20% of battery capacity on arrival. With Tesla's nation-wide network of fast chargers located 50-150 miles apart along all the interstate highways, long distance travel is not problem, and I can usually be recharged in 30 minutes, about the same amount of time it takes me to rest, stretch, and pee.

'Sorry if this repeats; I was trying to fix a typo.

[Richard Pfiffner]

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 7:39:44 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Whoa, it takes you 30 minutes for a pit stop, you might as well be towing a tassel of small children :)

What about Reno to Ely to Nephi on the loneliest highway in the US?

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 8:47:37 AM UTC-4, Scott Manley wrote:

> The 2017 Tesla Model X I am leasing is a amazing tow vehicle.

I think what I like best about my tow vehicle is that it isn't amazing at all. It turns 87 octane into forward motion with tolerable economy and rarely gives trouble.

T8

[Ron Gleason]

Tesla charging stations in Nephi next to the JC Mikelson's restaurant on south end of town. So progressive!

[JS]

Nice, Ron!
Hadn't previously thought of JC Mikelson's as progressive.

The latest vehicle for me works very well, even towing the Duo in the mountains.
32 (US)MPG / 7.35l per 100km average since purchased. But at $30k the GLK250 is my most expensive car.
Jim

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 8:47:37 AM UTC-4, Scott Manley wrote:

> The 2017 Tesla Model X I am leasing is a amazing tow vehicle.

I've heard that the electric motors of some hybrids can overheat when towing up a long grade. This might explain why the hybrid and non-hybrid version of the same model have different tow ratings.

Not an issue if you live in a flat place.

[Ron Gleason]

lets see give a few parking spots for monthly rent and maybe sell some more burgers? makes sense to me even though I am not a Tesla fan 8-)

[Scott Manley]

> What about Reno to Ely to Nephi on the loneliest highway in the US?

Nope! Not a single Tesla supercharger site along the loneliest highway in the U.S. between Reno and Nephi.

However, in addition to the superchargers in Reno and Nephi, there are no fewer than 6 Tesla charging sites along Interstate 80 between Reno and Nephi. While the I-80 route is 77 miles longer, Google Maps estimates the travel time from Reno to Nephi via U.S. 50 (a.k.a., the loneliest highway) to be 8 hr 19 minutes, a whole two minutes less than RNO to U14 via I-80.

[Richard Pfiffner]

But it is Nephi's worst. They advertise the largest burger it town.

[Bruce Hoult]

I'm actually surprised there isn't a charger at Ely!

Tonopah to Nephi is 370 miles. Sadly, that's too much even for the Model S 100D, not even towing. At least officially -- one owner managed to get one 670 miles by driving slowly. Really slowly. Like 30 mph.

[2G]

You are very likely to become road kill if you drive 30 mph on Nevada highways.

Tom

[drguya...@gmail.com]

Towing across the barren western states in an all electric car.
Some people just like a complicated life.

[jim.zo...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 1:40:38 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I estimate my glider and trailer at about 1,800 lbs and tow it with
> my wife's Subaru Outback with 3.6 liter flat 6 engine.  It easily
> tows over the mountain passes in New Mexico and Colorado, gets
> mileage in the 30s without the trailer and mid 20s with the
> trailer.  And, while I'm flying, my wife has an AWD car to use for
> finding hiking trails in the mountains.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/24/2015 10:03 AM,
> towpi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am new to this group and last fall added a glider rating to my ASEL certificate.
>
> I am planning to replace my car this summer and in anticipation of purchasing a glider someday, I would like to purchase a vehicle that would do a good job towing a glider. I also want it to get the best gas mileage that it can while still being a good tow vehicle. I don't want something that is marginal and will make long distance towing a stressful affair, but also don't want a vehicle that is overkill.

>
> What is the typical range o gross weights of a single seat glider plus trailer?
>

> Recommendations on a good tow vehicles?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

Sorry for jumping in late to this thread ... is a class II hitch sufficient (assuming glider/trailer less than 2,000 lbs? Appreciate any advice. Jim

[Dan Daly]

> Sorry for jumping in late to this thread ... is a class II hitch sufficient (assuming glider/trailer less than 2,000 lbs? Appreciate any advice. Jim

https://www.autoanything.com/towing/how-to-select-the-right-hitch-class.aspx

Many of our club members use Class I.

[2G]

According to this, a Class II is comfortably ok:

https://www.drawtite-hitches.com/learning_center/general-towing-classes

I would not recommend a Class I, even if it technically met the specs (less than 2000 lb and less than 200 lb tongue weight). The reason is the length of the trailer - winds can increase the load seen by the hitch quite substantially.

Tom