Any PW5 gossip?
Michael Vaughn
I haven't heard anything recently about the PW5. Does anyone have
the latest scoop on what is happenning? (ie. availability, price, etc.).
Michael Vaughn
ASW19B "HR"
Tor Olav Steine
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Market Share as >> Tor Olav Steine >>
>> t...@sn.no Tel/Fax: +4767-548456/149290 >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Toby Wright
In article <318992...@sn.no>, Tor Olav Steine <t...@sn.no> writes
>Michael Vaughn wrote:
>>
>> I haven't heard anything recently about the PW5. Does anyone have
>> the latest scoop on what is happenning? (ie. availability, price, etc.).
>>
>> Michael Vaughn
>> ASW19B "HR"Try: http://www.netlink.co.nz/~gliding/pw5/
I heard the company Armitage Shanks, were interested in importing it in
the uk.
just a rumour........<g>
Toby; in the rain :( _______ at work;
at the Soaring Centre, UK | etl.e...@memo.ericsson.se
Mini-Nimbus C 169 / \
---------------------------------(_ _)-----------------------------------
Dave Russell
In article <3188DF...@nortel.ca>, Michael Vaughn <mva...@nortel.ca>
writes:
> I haven't heard anything recently about the PW5. Does anyone have
> the latest scoop on what is happenning? (ie. availability, price, etc.).
I saw one at Van Sant airport in Erwinna, PA, last weekend. I still don't
think it's very beautiful to look at, but it is much nicer than the impression
I got from the pictures in Soaring.
It is a private ship, so a quick personal flight test was not an option. :-(
Dave Russell voice: 908 519-3965
drus...@synapse.bms.com
"There are only two types of aircraft-fighters and targets."
"Wahoo" Nicholson, USMC
David Woodhouse
>In article <3188DF...@nortel.ca>, Michael Vaughn <mva...@nortel.ca>
>writes:
>
>> I haven't heard anything recently about the PW5. Does anyone have
>> the latest scoop on what is happenning? (ie. availability, price, etc.).
>I saw one at Van Sant airport in Erwinna, PA, last weekend. I still don't
>think it's very beautiful to look at, but it is much nicer than the impression
>I got from the pictures in Soaring.
At Hempstead in TX on Saturday, I spoke with two of the folks from
Apeks. They were talking about the triple nightmare of dealing with
regulatory bodies in Poland, China and USA. Having said that, they
both seemed very optimistic about the project. No dates for
production.
I also me a member of the original PW-5 design team. The Polish
production has settled down and they expect to produce about 80 units
per year.
There will be an article about World Class history and future, the
PW-5 and PW-6, production and other bits and peices published in Free
Flight in the next 2 months. This article may also make it into
Soaring.
David
Tor Olav Steine
David Woodhouse wrote:
>
> I also me a member of the original PW-5 design team. The Polish
> production has settled down and they expect to produce about 80 units
> per year.
>
Knowing from a previuos posting in this conference that the entire German
glider production in 1995 was 300 gliders, which single TYPE of glider is
growing fastest in the world?
Remember what they said about the PC's when they arriven in the early
80's?: They are vastly inferior to a VAX, and will probrably go away in a
few years time....
I'd like to say this to critics of the World Class (said by a smart guy):
The only thing most people can learn from history is that people do not
learn from history. ...:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Market Share as >> Tor Olav Steine >>
>> t...@sn.no Tel/Fax: +4767-548456/149290 >>
>>>>>>>>>I fly better than I spell>>>>>>>>>>
Phil Swallow
IMHO they're pleasant and obedient to fly but I still wish it had been a
cheaper LS-4!
Phil Swallow
>ph...@migrant.compulink.co.uk
>ps...@cix.compulink.co.uk
David S Habercom
Tor Olav Steine wrote:
>
> Knowing from a previuos posting in this conference that the entire German
> glider production in 1995 was 300 gliders, which single TYPE of glider is
> growing fastest in the world?
To put Tor's observation in perspective, the 300 gliders produced in
Germany last year average out to 60 per factory. PZL-Swidnik will
manufacture 80 in 1996 and can't get them out the door fast enough.
They apparently are considering going to 120 in 1997.
David Habercom
President
World Class Soaring Association
John Cochrane
>To put Tor's observation in perspective, the 300 gliders produced in
>Germany last year average out to 60 per factory. PZL-Swidnik will
>manufacture 80 in 1996 and can't get them out the door fast enough.
>They apparently are considering going to 120 in 1997.
>
>David Habercom
>President
>World Class Soaring Association
I bet the overall market for gliders hasn't gone up by 80 units with the advent of
the PW-5. Hence, if these estimates are true, the Germans (and Poles and
Lithuanians; the high performance market) will lose -- let's guess -- 60 sales? This
is not good news for those of us who like the other side of 30:1.
Most opinion expressed in this newsgroup seems to favor the "LS4 class" (or
Discus, or choose your favorite glider) concept. If they want to stay in business,
it sounds like the Germans should start the "LS4" class on their own, without
waiting for the FAI!
John Cochrane
Pegasus DK
B Lacovara
IMHO - It seems to be price. I sense a huge pent-up demand in the U.S. for
affordable gliders. The current German glider cost excludes a very large
number of U.S. buyers. Let me quote some stats from my new book "Complete
Listing of Gliders in the U.S.":
"In 1995 a total of 75 *new* gliders entered the U.S. registery. This
includes all European built sailplanes and a handfull of new homebuilts.
However, a total of 479 gliders were sold and registered in during the
same period. The implication is that 404 *used* gliders changed hands in
the U.S. in 1995. About 300-400 gliders have been sold in the U.S. every
year for the last 5 years. Of course most are used ships, just
re-circulating in the market and rising in cost due to the demand."
I believe the U.S. market supports two price ranges for sailplanes. The
entry level buyer (except for 1-26 or spam can fans) can spend between
$15,000 - $20,000. Maybe this involves a partner for the first ship. The
buyer who is established and maybe on a second ship can and will spend
$20,000 - $35,000. Above $35,000 reaches a more elite and increasingly
limited group. Every glider pilot in the U.S. wants a German glider, few
can afford them.
Here's an idea - Why not make a deal with a German manufacturer to buy the
tooling for an out-of-production model (DG-300, LS-4?, Ventus I, etc.) and
produce it elsewhere at a real world cost. 90% of U.S. glider pilots don't
need or want to pay for the latest iteration of a racing machine. The
reason the Poles are selling more gliders is they make a decent product
that more people can afford.
I think the first enterprise to come up with a 40:1, modern looking, good
handling glider for $25,000 - $35,000 new is going to go gang busters.
Just my thoughts...
Bob Lacovara "2BT"
David Woodhouse
John Cochrane <john.c...@gsb.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>I bet the overall market for gliders hasn't gone up by 80 units with the advent of
>the PW-5. Hence, if these estimates are true, the Germans (and Poles and
>Lithuanians; the high performance market) will lose -- let's guess -- 60 sales? This
>is not good news for those of us who like the other side of 30:1.
I am sorry John, but those individuals who want a Discus are going to
buy one whether or not the PW-5 is available! My experience and
investigations indicate that the PW-5's are going into clubs to
replace Ka-6's and similar older craft that have, for years, been the
staple of the "Club Class" glider.
BTW, max L/D of a PW-5 is 32.5 / 1.
David Woodhouse
wo...@carolian.com
Bert Willing
Why then to replace a Ka 6E (L/D 34:1) by that PW-5?!
David H. Noyes
In article <4n8v9u$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> blac...@aol.com (B Lacovara) writes:
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>From: blac...@aol.com (B Lacovara)
>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
>Subject: Re: Any PW5 gossip?
>Date: 13 May 1996 23:39:42 -0400
>Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
>Lines: 33
>Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>Message-ID: <4n8v9u$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>References: <3197C1...@UTK.EDU>
>Reply-To: blac...@aol.com (B Lacovara)
>NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>IMHO - It seems to be price. I sense a huge pent-up demand in the U.S. for
>affordable gliders.
>I think the first enterprise to come up with a 40:1, modern looking, good
>handling glider for $25,000 - $35,000 new is going to go gang busters.
Will the Genesis fill this requirement? Or is it not "modern looking"?
I wonder how much the "non-standard" short fuselage will affect its sales....?
John Cochrane
>I think the first enterprise to come up with a 40:1, modern looking, good
>handling glider for $25,000 - $35,000 new is going to go gang busters.
>Just my thoughts...
>
>Bob Lacovara "2BT"
Aren't the LAK-12 and Std. Jantar just that? Both sell for under $30,000 according
to ads in Soaring. I have seen a few, but they don't seem to be selling as well as
the PW5. Also, the Russia and L33 are equivalent to the PW5 from a flying
perspective, but I presume aren't selling 80 gliders a year (does anyone know?).
My Pegasus was once a cheap glider; quite a few were imported but nothing like
this. The explanation has to be the prospect of a competition class.
It looks like the enterprise (or group) needs just to come up with (or just revive)
a 40:1 good handling $25,000-$35,000 glider AND sponsor a class competition. I'm
curious why they don't. Getting a few contests going seems like a relatively cheap
thing for a manufacturer or group to do. Especially if it means you can double your
sales!
John Cochrane
Pegasus DK
Tor Olav Steine
John Cochrane wrote:
>
> >To put Tor's observation in perspective, the 300 gliders produced in
> >Germany last year average out to 60 per factory. PZL-Swidnik will
> >manufacture 80 in 1996 and can't get them out the door fast enough.
> >They apparently are considering going to 120 in 1997.
> >
> >David Habercom
> >President
> >World Class Soaring Association
>
> the PW-5. Hence, if these estimates are true, the Germans (and Poles and
> Lithuanians; the high performance market) will lose -- let's guess -- 60 sales?
I am not sure of this myself. Reading about rust in older metal tube/wood
constructions like the K-8 should make many clubs reconsider their fleet.
Wee in Oslo have Twin and single Astirs, Discus GFK planes and Blanik and
and K-8 for training. I guess our next single seater trainer will not be
another K-8.
This
> is not good news for those of us who like the other side of 30:1.
> The PW-5 has an L/D in the area of 34:1, slightly less than an Astir, and it
outclimbs many 15m ships. Climb AND L/D combined gives you X/C performance.
Which side of 30 do you mean?
> Most opinion expressed in this newsgroup seems to favor the "LS4 class" (or
> Discus, or choose your favorite glider) concept. If they want to stay in business,
> it sounds like the Germans should start the "LS4" class on their own, without
> waiting for the FAI!
>
This was my first reaction too, two years ago. However, price seems to have
to do with weight. The heavier the plane, the more cost all the way through
production. The contestants for the World Class all were leight weight. A
few fell out because og weight, I have been told. Many US pilots seem to go
for the losers of this contest, rather than the winner. I do not understand
why?
Be honest: What would you think was the outcome if one of the major German
manufacturers decided to go 100% for World Class production? I am pretty
sure they would take a considerable chunk of their home market, and a
sizeable share of other markets. If they do not, - well, in a year or so 5
new manufacturers may be in business with the PW-5. I know what happened in
the computer industry in a fairly equivalent situation: proprietary designs,
however excellent, were the losers.
Why try and create 'alternative' World Classes? PW-5 has been chosen, the
jury is back in. The most media covered event ever in airsports will focus
on the PW-5 alone. How come there only are 3 PW-5's in the US up to now?
Norway alone has 3 also (end of 96), and we are the size of Minnesota..
Again: I have no economical involvement with the World Class, I only try not
to prevent the river from flowing downstream.
Phil Swallow
>Remember what they said about the PC's when they arriven in the early
>80's?: They are vastly inferior to a VAX, and will probrably go away in
a
>few years time....
If it's a PC, then I believe that in its current form it's a 286, not a
Pentium.
Phil Swallow
>ph...@migrant.compulink.co.uk
WILLIAM BERLE
Pardon the commercial information on the bottom of this post. It is not
meant to be of interest here, I just had to put it on my .sig file to
broadcast it to avionics supply houses. Disregard it, and don't bitch.
As far as the cheap glider class discussion goes, I can't help but put
my 2 cents in. The problem is not anything that has been bandied about
already, even the selling of $25,000 new gliders or a racing class for
them. The problem, folks, is that $25,000 is twice or three times what
people are willing to pay to go soaring. The exceptions are those who
can easily afford this type of luxury, and those who compete nationally
and can justify mortgaging their home for a Ventus 2. Technology being
what it is, the final cost of the sailplane has been overlooked by the
manufacturers of high performance ships, and the price goals have not
been met by makers of "everyman's gliders". Technology needs to be
focused on cost reduction for a change, just like with cars. Everyone
knows where to go to buy a Ferrari if they can afford one. We need a
Hyundai in soaring, or at least a Honda Civic. My personal opinion
(thanks for asking)is that a near or full flying wing design should be
adopted. despite the admitted compromises aerodynamically, there are a
couple of major advantages. A NEAR flying wing could be designed to use
just two major molds, a top and bottom wing. This could even include a
semi horizontal tail. The cost of a new glider would have to be a hell
of a lot lower than what it is for most of us to buy it. There are a
lot of folks who can shoot holes in any idea like a flying wing, but
perhaps those folks can suggest a cheaper way to build an airplane...
Bill Berle
In <DrEHz...@midway.uchicago.edu> John Cochrane
--
Bill Berle PP/ASEL/G
as-...@ix.netcom.com
Victor Bravo Enterprises
Victor Bravo Air Racing
Walt Weaver
In article <dnoyes.55...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>,
dno...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu says...
>
>In article <4n8v9u$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> blac...@aol.com (B Lacovara)
writes:
>>Path:
magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.g
nn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not
>
>>IMHO - It seems to be price. I sense a huge pent-up demand in the U.S. for
>>affordable gliders.
>
>>handling glider for $25,000 - $35,000 new is going to go gang busters.
>
>I wonder how much the "non-standard" short fuselage will affect its sales....?
Well, it won't affect me much. I'm pretty excited about what I've read
about the Genesis. I'll be getting my Private Glider license in the
next month or so, and plan on flying the club 1-26 this summer to build
up hours and do short (maybe long?!) x-c's. Hopefully by next spring
I'll have the experience to fly something with an L/D that's better
than my truck's.
Anyway, since I'm an American, I like to buy American. That's why I
own a Toyota truck, and that's why I'll be buying an American sailplane
like the Genesis. I don't care if it's built in Lithuania or not :) :).
For all of you humor-impaired, the above is a joke.
I am the Great White Hunter of a semi-typical American family: two
working parents, one kid going to college, one kid trying to become
a soccer star, and a dad with a flying addiction. The chances of
the soccer star in our family making it big time is about zero, so
I'm going to have to find a way to fund my dream of owning my own
sailplane. It won't be easy, and I'm saving up for the down payment
as we speak.
But it seems to me that there are already sailplanes out there
that fill this bill. The Genesis is one, and the L33 Solo is
another one. Some others have mentioned the PW5 and LAK-12.
This brings me rambling around to the point of my post. Wouldn't
these types of sailplanes make great club ships? Why isn't the
Genesis being hyped as a great club ship, if it's so easy to
fly? To me, one of the great advantages of joining a soaring
club is not just the camaradarie and the advantages of learning
from the old guys, but being able to fly for a relatively small
amount of money. Is there any way clubs could get special deals
on loans to buy these things?
AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport. One
way to do it would be to be able to take a kid out on the flight
line and say, If you join and get your license, you'll be able to
fly a high-performance ship just like the Big Guys. As it sits now,
most young club members are stuck with a 20-year-old 1-26. End of
line. Not too exciting to teenagers.
I know I've departed a bit from the original thread, but I think
the idea of inexpensive performance sailplanes as club ships is
one worth pursuing.
Thanks,
--Walt Weaver
Bert Willing
as-...@ix.netcom.com (WILLIAM BERLE ) wrote:
>
My personal opinion
>(thanks for asking)is that a near or full flying wing design should be
>adopted. despite the admitted compromises aerodynamically, there are a
>couple of major advantages. A NEAR flying wing could be designed to use
>just two major molds, a top and bottom wing. This could even include a
>semi horizontal tail. The cost of a new glider would have to be a hell
>of a lot lower than what it is for most of us to buy it. There are a
>lot of folks who can shoot holes in any idea like a flying wing, but
be) is not at all something cheap to build if you want to get a
reasonable L/D. The last development in this direction is the SB13 of
the Akaflieg Braunschweig with a L/D of something like 41.5:1. It's an
amazing ship but it was NOT cheap and it is nothing to fly with for
everybody.
But I agree that it should be possible to build a ship which is quite
performant for a reasonable price. Actually, there are two things you
can't get around which make the costs: One is the amortissement of
development costs (including moulds) which you can cut down by a high
numbers of ships sold, and the other is the manual work involved in
constructing a glider (even out of negative moulds). Grob showed how to
reduce this: The finish of their glider was relatively poor, but in the
end there was an affordable glider (I remember that my club had bought a
new Club II for DM 20,000).
Bert
Hans Trautenberg t2466
Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
: AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
: teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport. One
: way to do it would be to be able to take a kid out on the flight
: line and say, If you join and get your license, you'll be able to
: fly a high-performance ship just like the Big Guys. As it sits now,
: most young club members are stuck with a 20-year-old 1-26. End of
: line. Not too exciting to teenagers.
In out club the teenagers fly the LS4 and the ASW20, but we still have
a lack of teenagers. At the present we have 5 flight instructors (25,30
,35,50,55 years old) and only on teenager as a student. So it is not
lack of instuction but lack of commitment by the teenagers. There are
so many other things to do, that don't require to spend a lot of time
at just on thing.
--
=============================================================================
Dipl. Phys. Hans L. Trautenberg Universitaet Regensburg
Institut fuer Experimentelle und Angewandte Physik D-93040 Regensburg
phone (49) 941 943 2466 fax (49) 941 943 3196
e-mail hans.tra...@physik.uni-regensburg.de Germany
privat
phone (49) 941 949211 fax (49) 941 930792
10161...@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/HLT
Flurstr. 14 D-92348 Berg Germany
=============================================================================
Ross Sutherland
Bert Willing <Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> wrote:
>Why then to replace a Ka 6E (L/D 34:1) by that PW-5?!
the same reason you replace a 30 year old car that also does
100mph.....
cheers
Ross
Ross Sutherland
Interesting debate here - there seems to be a trend that once people
actually see & fly the PW5 they generally quite quickly see the merits
of the design & initial concerns of a 33:1 glide ratio (which I must
admit I also thought the same when the world class was developed) seem
to be allayed.
As Tor puts it well, Cross Country Performance is a result of climb
performance, LD and may I add Paddock performance. The PW5 puts these
three into a package that leaves alot of the other 15 metre gliders
behind - especially for low hour club pilots.
In our club, the PW5 is an outstanding success, they are always the
1st gliders out of the hanger & last away and very popular.
The interesting thing is that even 2 of our hotshot members, who
represented NZ at the last worlds, are very enthusiast about them,
often commenting that if there is a thermal you can just about
garentee that there is a PW5 at the top and they seem to come across
them at far away places during their Xcounrtry flights that for most
of us are gee whizz affairs.
The reality is that although all of us would love a discus (& would
love our clubs to own a few for our pleasure) the PW5 is an ideal fit
as it can be flown safely by anyone & has the added bonus that with a
low capital cost & gaurenteed high utilisation it wont cost an arm & a
leg to hire...
just my .002c worth
cheers
Ross
Wayne Mapp
In article <DrEHz...@midway.uchicago.edu>, John Cochrane <john.c...@gsb.uchicago.edu> says:
>
>
>>I think the first enterprise to come up with a 40:1, modern looking, good
>>handling glider for $25,000 - $35,000 new is going to go gang busters.
>>
>>Bob Lacovara "2BT"
>
>Aren't the LAK-12 and Std. Jantar just that? Both sell for under $30,000 according
>to ads in Soaring. I have seen a few, but they don't seem to be selling as well as
>the PW5.
There are a couple of LAK-12's in NZ at Hauraki Aeroclub. Both owners rave about
the performance. In NZ they were approx $45,000 (US$ 30,000). However they have
not caught on whereas PW5's have (as club owned machines). I read a particularly good
owners evaluation of the LAK in "Soaring" about a year ago. It certainly seems the
best performance per $ (for a new machine) but people still ask can it compete in the
Open class, even though to compete at the top end is going to cost five times more.
Maybe handicapping solves the problem. Anyway how many people actually compete?
Bruce Hoult
as-...@ix.netcom.com (WILLIAM BERLE ) writes:
> As far as the cheap glider class discussion goes, I can't help but put
> my 2 cents in. The problem is not anything that has been bandied about
> already, even the selling of $25,000 new gliders or a racing class for
> them. The problem, folks, is that $25,000 is twice or three times what
> people are willing to pay to go soaring. The exceptions are those who
> can easily afford this type of luxury, and those who compete nationally
> and can justify mortgaging their home for a Ventus 2. Technology being
> what it is, the final cost of the sailplane has been overlooked by the
> manufacturers of high performance ships, and the price goals have not
> been met by makers of "everyman's gliders". Technology needs to be
> focused on cost reduction for a change, just like with cars. Everyone
> knows where to go to buy a Ferrari if they can afford one. We need a
> (thanks for asking)is that a near or full flying wing design should be
> adopted. despite the admitted compromises aerodynamically, there are a
> couple of major advantages. A NEAR flying wing could be designed to use
> just two major molds, a top and bottom wing. This could even include a
> semi horizontal tail. The cost of a new glider would have to be a hell
> of a lot lower than what it is for most of us to buy it. There are a
> lot of folks who can shoot holes in any idea like a flying wing, but
Seems to me that the next-cheapest design would be a pod & boom fuselage,
like most small helicopters. And the PW-5, by the way.
-- Bruce
Niles Roberts
Agreed. A economical glider needs to be priced like an
economical car. How much of the cost of current ships is due
to materials, and the diffuculty in working them? I.e.
fiberglass and composites. Does anyone remember wood and
fabric? (w&f). These are perfectly adequate construction
materials and don't need capital-intensive manufacturing items
such as molds whose costs need to amortized over large
production runs. The last ships to be built using w&f (and
steel tube) technology had performance comparable to a PW-5.
Being German, they were still expensive. But there's no
reason the effort and ingenuity used to design the PW-5
couldn't also be used to come up with a comparable, economic
ship in w&f. Not only could it be built in Estonia, or
where-ever, with skilled, low-cost labor; kits or even just
plans could be sold to let folks build their own. People
understand wood and wood-working; likewise with fabric. These
materials offer options just not available in fiberglass.
---- Niles
Fortune favors the bold.
WILLIAM BERLE
In <29152...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> Br...@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce
Hoult) writes:
>Seems to me that the next-cheapest design would be a pod & boom
fuselage,
>like most small helicopters. And the PW-5, by the way.
>
>-- Bruce
I truly wish this whould have been true, but if it were, the price of
that ship would be a lot lower. Eliminating the fuselage entirely not
only reduces the materials cost, but more importantly it eliminates
half of the labor cost. It also halves the time and cost of molds,
regardless of what materials are built in them. Until a new super
thermo-plastic is available that can be heated and vacuum formed into
the molds, we're stuck with glass and resin.
My point is that half the number of molds, half the man-hours, and half
the materials is something worth pursuing. I prefer conventional
airplanes too, but somehow nobody can seem to build one cheap. Even if
the PW-5 or Russia were licensed to someone in Mexico or China, I have
doubts as to just how low the final price would be. Like Korean made
cars, the salesmen would glowingly say that the price of the ship is
20% less, but this is still $20,000+. Imagine a Horten or Fauvel style
flying wing built in China, needing only 2 major molds, and half of the
man hours. If we wind up with a little less than the performance of the
wooden Horten wings of the 1940's, from a glass version built in China,
we still have a 30 to 1 or better ship. Certainly there are better
airfoils and aerodynamics that can be applied to the Horten concept,
even taking into accout the Chinese version would not have the airfoil
accuracy of a European ship. I'll bet that the design could be built
with a lot cheaper resin and glass cloth, adding an additional 25
pounds of extra weight because of poorer material strength, and
achieveing a significant cost reduction. None of this low tech approach
sounds attractive compared to a hand crafted Ventus, but there is a
need for it. We need a Volkswagen, because there are too many Ferraris
with no market. There are thousands of buyers for a really inexpensive
glider, but somehow the World Class committee and the manufacturers are
still confused about the definition of "really inexpensive".
David H. Noyes
In article <4nkhet$4...@tiger.utw.com> r...@utw.com writes:
> Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
>an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you except to
>chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
>often. I fly my own Pacific Airwaves 177 Magic IV; it's a
>hang glider, and I live next to the Rockies. r...@utw.com
Every time I see one of these sad stories I want to know WHO did this?!?
Dave, NL
r...@utw.com
> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport. One
> : way to do it would be to be able to take a kid out on the flight
> : line and say, If you join and get your license, you'll be able to
> : fly a high-performance ship just like the Big Guys. As it sits now,
> : most young club members are stuck with a 20-year-old 1-26. End of
> : line. Not too exciting to teenagers.
> In out club the teenagers fly the LS4 and the ASW20, but we still have
> a lack of teenagers. At the present we have 5 flight instructors (25,30
> ,35,50,55 years old) and only on teenager as a student.
Show me a teenager with a few thousand to spend on the aircraft
driver's license, let alone the aircraft, and I'll show you a rare bird. I've always
wanted to fly; now I'm 45 and just starting to see the possibility of getting a
1-26 (which would look great to me).
Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you except to
chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
often. I worked on aircraft in the Air Force (avionics repair) and at BWI
(same). The pay was poor, but dreams die hard. They still chase me away.
Now I'm just telling you how it is. For myself, I have lots of solo
airtime now, fly with oxygen, and I can (and do) soar several hours after work
on any given day. In my twenty years of flying, the airtime adds up. I have no
flying license of any kind, and that's how the FAA and I want things to be.
Someday I might get into a sailplane, or any plane, (I am looking to buy); but
it has not happened yet. I fly my own Pacific Airwaves 177 Magic IV; it's a
WILLIAM BERLE
In <dnoyes.61...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
dno...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (David H. Noyes) writes:
>
>In article <4nkhet$4...@tiger.utw.com> r...@utw.com writes:
>
were
>>an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you
except to
>>chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased
away
this?!?
>
>Dave, NL
Ditto! If it were not for a few friendly people I met right after I was
turned off by a Southern California Club in 1979, I would never have
given soaring a second chance. I was turned around by a couple of nice
pilots, and next thing I knew soaring was attractive to me again. There
are too damn many snobs and uppity elitists in the sport, most of whom
do not deserve the attitude. It is on their conscience that soaring is
dying out, since it is those same holier than thou snobs who have put
soaring in the doldrums it is in now. Don't give up. Hang gliding is
every bit as valid of a sport as soaring in $200K carbon airplanes.
There is no reason that hang gliding enthusiasts and glider enthusiasts
can't get to be friends.
Bill Berle VB
Bert Willing
I don't agree with this wood an d fabric option. Once you have built the
moulds for a glider, man hours are incredibly reduced compared to w/f
ships. And, as you claim, there are at least some hundreds buyers for
a low cost ship, the amortization is quite reasonable. If you want to
produce the same number of sailplanes in w/f, you'll end up with MUCH
higher production costs even if you go to countries with low labour
cost.
Additionally, the maintainance of a w/f ship is much more costly in
terms of labour, and you have a problem of fatigue.
To give you an idea about material costs: If you produce a 15 meter
ship, all glass and no carbon, you have to buy the material for the
structure (i.e. glass fabric, epoxy and gel-coat) for something like
USD 4000. To make the ship without any finish, there are some 200 man
hours. You then have to add quite expensive things like a canopy, steel
constructions etc. And at the end, you have to add the most expensive
thing, that is finish and assembly.
No go and try to buy the high class wood for 4000 bucks, and then try to
solder the steel frame and to glue the wood within 200 hours ... You
will end up with a very expensive piece of art which doesn't like any
drop of rain.
So, there are also some economical reasons why the wood and fabric times
are gone.
Bert
Guenther Seemann
>> In out club the teenagers fly the LS4 and the ASW20, but we still have
>> a lack of teenagers. At the present we have 5 flight instructors (25,30
>> ,35,50,55 years old) and only on teenager as a student.
> Show me a teenager with a few thousand to spend on the aircraft
>driver's license, let alone the aircraft, and I'll show you a rare bird. I've always
In Germany the majority of sailplane students are indeed teenagers. And, as
above mentioned, they self-evident fly LS4 and ASW 20 (In our club it's Discus
and LS7). And the PPL-C in Germany (this is the sailplane license) does not
cost a few thousands.
But I have to admit that in Germany circumstances are a bit different.
> Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
>an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you except to
>chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
>often.
This sounds very strange. I hope that this is not a typical behaviour of
American sailplane pilots.
- Guenther
-------------------------------------------
Guenther Seemann ---+---
|
-----------(.)-----------
LS6-a, D-0616, HG
e-mail: S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE
David S Habercom
Hans Trautenberg wrote:
>
> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport. One
> : way to do it would be to be able to take a kid out on the flight
> : line and say, If you join and get your license, you'll be able to
> : fly a high-performance ship just like the Big Guys. As it sits now,
> : most young club members are stuck with a 20-year-old 1-26. End of
> : line. Not too exciting to teenagers.
>
> a lack of teenagers. At the present we have 5 flight instructors (25,30
> lack of instuction but lack of commitment by the teenagers. There are
> so many other things to do, that don't require to spend a lot of time
> at just on thing.
Hans points to a key element in the formula to grow soaring, whatever that shapes up
to be: the sport need to compete in the "attention marketplace" and to do it in a way
that makes the discipline seem worth the effort to a young observer. Creation of the
World Class in itself satisfies only part of the equation, albeit a mandatory part,
and we need also to focus on questions of marketing and visibility.
That is why the WCSA will shift its mission over the next year from "motivating
manufacturers" to "lighting the fire for silent flight." (I hope to announce a
European planning meeting soon aimed at brainstorming just that mission.) Having
played a useful role in bringing several manufacturers to the threshold of World Class
production, WCSA, while certainly not dropping that ball, needs now to start building
on the WC platform some kind of process which results in worldwide growth of the
sport. We have many options, some quite exciting and promising, and we need to look
far ahead and begin now to establish a strategic plan.
While it seems certain that the formula for marketing will vary from country to
country because of differences in infrastructure, history, and culture, I also
strongly suspect that the overall challenge will yield to a shared strategy.
Developing such a strategy, selling it to the international soaring community, and
helping soaring organizations implement it will, I think, become WCSA's primary
interest in the future.
Stay tuned.
Hans Trautenberg t2466
Guenther Seemann (S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE) wrote:
: > Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
: >chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
: >often.
: This sounds very strange. I hope that this is not a typical behaviour of
: American sailplane pilots.
Are glider pilots in Germany that much different. I know of quite a few
potential glider pilotes that were chased away form clubs.
Hans
Roy Edwards
r...@utw.com wrote:
>> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
>> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
>> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
members. Perhaps; shock, horror, the best source of new members are
over 40 decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
Roy
Bert Willing
Sorry for this fourfold posting - this shitty Mac told me that it hadn't
sent at all ...
Bert
Bert Willing
Because its a pity if you want to restraint this beautiful activity to
elderly people. And as a fact, the younger the people start to fly, the
more they can bring to this sport because if you are really attracted to
something at the age of 16, you will cling to it during a life's span.
And I think it is -by far - not only money what is needed in a club
(although it helps), but also enthusiasm and the will to participate in
group activities.
I've seen a couple of clubs and frankly speeking, I would NEVER enter
one where there are no teenagers. No teenies, no life - neither on the
field, nor for the club.
Cheers Bert
(at the age of 32 ...)
Bert Willing
Bert Willing
Bert Willing
David S Habercom
Roy Edwards wrote:
>
> >> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
> >> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
> >> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
>
> Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
> over 40, decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
> young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
>
> Roy
Good question, especially since it comes from Roy, who is a cold-hearted capitalist
with a penchant for looking at the bottom line.
I suppose I would argue that, to capture them at 40, we need to cultivate them at 15.
Thus, we need to appeal to teenagers.
However, Roy's question does pose the brutal truth that the people who actually can
afford the time and money that soaring demands, even in the World Class, belong in the
group he more-or-less names.
I wonder if we need to shape our marketing effort more precisely and something like
this:
1) we should direct our efforts at achieving *visibility* toward a broad base, making
certain that we get exposure among the young, and
2) we should direct our *recruiting* efforts at a more mature crowd, people who
realistically can consider fulfilling the childhood dream of silent flight -- which,
one hopes, we would have nurtured through #1.
This is an important question to WCSA, and I would appreciate seeing any additional
comments posted here.
SAT AP
My only reply would be if you did not want to do it badly enough that a
few frowns could turn you away you probaly were not serious enough about
it in the first place..
Rich Carr
SAT AP (sa...@aol.com) wrote:
: My only reply would be if you did not want to do it badly enough that a
: few frowns could turn you away you probaly were not serious enough about
: it in the first place..
This puts it too bluntly, but I think some of the bad rap of clubs
comes from folks who wander out onto a ramp where pilots are busy
assembling gliders and preparing for a task, and do not welcome
interruptions.
Most clubs have someone on the field each day whose job is to answer
questions and show visitors around. If a visitor *avoids* this person
out of fear of getting a sales pitch, or simply doesn't connect with
that person, then the visitor is likely to get a cold shoulder from a
bunch of pilots intent on their tasks.
- Rich Carr
Rich Carr
I wrote:
: Most clubs have someone on the field each day whose job is to answer
: questions and show visitors around. If a visitor *avoids* this person
: out of fear of getting a sales pitch, or simply doesn't connect with
: that person, then the visitor is likely to get a cold shoulder from a
: bunch of pilots intent on their tasks.
I should add that the cold shoulder in this situation is
understandable, but not excusable. We all need to figure out how to
safely interrupt our activities to give visitors a warm welcome.
- Rich
WILLIAM BERLE
My personal experience was in 1977 or 1978 at Perris Valley Airport in
California. There was a club, still operating today as I understand,
that I visited for a ride and to begin lessons. The one guy who was
ostensibly running the operation, or chief instructor or whatever he
was, was a very large man with a full Santa Claus beard and moustache.
He made me wait for three hours or more, explaining that club members
had priority and flew first before visitors. Meanwhile I was asked to
push and pull the gliders around, run a wing or two, and generally sit
still and wait for my turn.
None of this was free, mind you, I was to pay a fee to get my ride. I
stood by for the whole day, watching and waiting, hoping to catch a
thermal like I had read about in Soaring. The old weathered Schweizer
2-22 was a thing of beauty to me, and all I wanted to do was to fly it.
Finally I got tired of waiting and started to ask when it would be my
turn. The gruff old guy got rude and said that if I sat there and shut
up, I MIGHT get a pattern ride before the day was out. I asked if that
included climbing in thermals, he said no way. By then, insulted and my
day wasted, I said "Well I thought that's what these airplanes are
designed to do. I can do patterns already in a Cessna 150." The guy got
really rude, and called me a smart ass and I walked away.
To this day, I have no respect for that old fart, and I have always
held it against their club, the Orange County Soaring Association. I
have no idea whteher this attitude is condoned or accepted by the OCSA
as a whole.
Years later, I ran into a few members of that club at another airport.
I took great pride asking if that same old guy was still alive or if he
had died from old age and nastiness. I took great pride in mentioning
that the OCSA could run the wing of my AS-W20, since I had done it for
them years ago, and maybe I would come and give a talk on advanced X-C
soaring at their club meeting if the members were advanced enough to
understand. After I had vented the old anger all out, I told the guys
that their club almost drove away a real soaring enthusiast, record
holder, and strong proponent of the sport. I hope they took notice but
I have no idea.
The point is that there might have been a good reason for the old guy
to be irritated that day. He had probably given a bunch of rides or
instruction, and was tired and crabby. I had lost any patience from
waiting all day, and since I was paying for the ride, I assumed that I
would be made at least some kind of priority. Nevertheless, the
situation might have turned me off to soaring if I hadn't been hooked
already by reading the magazine. I am sure that others might have been
turned off the same way, and the sport now cannot afford to lose any
interested party. Clubs have to find a way to promote the sport and
still tend to the wishes of their members. I believe that there has to
be some way to not turn away people. Perhaps a club information
pamphlet or sheet can be given to visitors. This paperwork can let the
public know what to expect if they show up on any given weekend.
I personally believe there should be an "introduction to soaring" video
made by SSA and given to all clubs at duplication cost. The club could
loan the video out to interested parties or visitors, as a preparation
to joining the club or spending the day as an onlooker. There should be
a similar video for commercial operators as well. I have seen a couple
of videos from better commercial operators, and they are excellent low
cost tools for promoting the sport. I am happy to brainstorm with the
SSA or any clubs and schools on how to best accomplish this if my
opinion is wanted.
Bill Berle VB
--
John Wright
On Tue, 21 May 1996 07:43:50 GMT, Roy Edwards wrote:
>r...@utw.com wrote:
>
>>> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
>>> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
>
>Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
>over 40 decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
>young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
I've always thought that gliding, above all sports, requires a lot of time
and commitment before you get a real return in terms of getting the best
out of it. When the world at large is offering instant gratification, it
becomes very difficult for gliding to stand up in the ever increasing
market place of recreational pursuits. It will always attract those people
who get completely hooked on flying at an early age. That's the way it
caught me!
John S. Wright
--
John Wright
Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so - Ix (Ford Prefect)
I Johnston
WILLIAM BERLE (as-...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: If it were not for a few friendly people I met right after I was
: turned off by a Southern California Club in 1979, I would never have
: given soaring a second chance. I was turned around by a couple of nice
: pilots, and next thing I knew soaring was attractive to me again. There
: are too damn many snobs and uppity elitists in the sport, most of whom
: do not deserve the attitude.
Johnston's Soaring Rule Number 16b: When striking up a conversation on
an airfield, avoid anyone wearing sunglasses.
Works here.
Ian
Shaber CJ
My old club the "Fault Line Flyers" out of Austin (what a GREAT bunch of
guys/gals) would reserve one day a month to give rides to non-members and
these days were advertised in the local paper. During that one day a
month the non-members had priority for rides. This worked out very well
as the members who wanted to recruit and give rides would show up, plus we
also had two single place club gliders and a number of members with their
own planes. If a non-member showed up on a day that was not set aside for
rides we would explain that if he/she came back in a week or two they
would have priority but if they wanted to stay and help with the gliders
today we would do our best to get them up later in the day.
Craig Shaber
ASW-24 "OK"
Niles Roberts
roy...@wave.co.nz (Roy Edwards) wrote:>r...@utw.com wrote:
>
>>> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
>>> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
>
>Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
>members. Perhaps; shock, horror, the best source of new members are
>over 40 decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
>young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
>
>
The seeds of passion for many, perhaps most, people are
planted in youth and childhood. I flew at age 12-16, then had
to quit for economic reasons. At 37, I'm interested again.
If I had not flown then, I would not be interested now. It
seems unlikely to me that people 40+ are going to get bit by
the soaring bug. That's the trouble; interest & passion come
from youth, economic means come with age.
Jeffry Stetson
In article <4nvfu4$s...@news.mr.net>, nrob...@efjohnson.com says...
[snip]
>the soaring bug. That's the trouble; interest & passion come
>from youth, economic means come with age.
>
>-- Niles
> Fortune favors the bold.
Didn't you just say "Fortune favors the OLD"? :-)
Jeff Knell
>>> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
>>> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
>
>Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
>members. Perhaps; shock, horror, the best source of new members are
>over 40 decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
>young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
Bert Willing writes:
Because its a pity if you want to restraint this beautiful activity to
elderly people. And as a fact, the younger the people start to fly, the
more they can bring to this sport because if you are really attracted to
something at the age of 16, you will cling to it during a life's span.
And I think it is -by far - not only money what is needed in a club
(although it helps), but also enthusiasm and the will to participate in
group activities.
I've seen a couple of clubs and frankly speeking, I would NEVER enter
one where there are no teenagers. No teenies, no life - neither on the
field, nor for the club.
========================
Does anyone know of a soaring club that awards "scholarships" to
worthy teenagers? This may have been previously suggested, but
this seems like a great way to attract young talent. It appears
that money is one primary hurdle for young folks that would like
to soar. Awarding "junior" club memberships and training would
give young pilots a running start.
OTOH, that's a bit like being a drug dealer: get 'em hooked, then
make 'em pay ;-).
First one's free, second one's on me, third time you pay.
jeff
David Woodhouse
shab...@aol.com (Shaber CJ) wrote:
>My old club the "Fault Line Flyers" out of Austin (what a GREAT bunch of
>guys/gals)
snip
If a non-member showed up on a day that was not set aside for
>rides we would explain that if he/she came back in a week or two they
>would have priority but if they wanted to stay and help with the gliders
>today we would do our best to get them up later in the day.
I visited the Fault Line Flyers on Saturday, May 18th and I did get to
fly with Gonzo. I had my first taste of west Texas thermals and my
first winch launch. I had a great time there and will go back the
next time I am in the area!
David Woodhouse
e-mail wo...@carolian.com
Jeffrey A. Young
In article <4ntio3$j...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Rich Carr <r...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>: Most clubs have someone on the field each day whose job is to answer
>: questions and show visitors around. If a visitor *avoids* this person
>: out of fear of getting a sales pitch, or simply doesn't connect with
>: that person, then the visitor is likely to get a cold shoulder from a
>: bunch of pilots intent on their tasks.
>
>I should add that the cold shoulder in this situation is
>understandable, but not excusable. We all need to figure out how to
>safely interrupt our activities to give visitors a warm welcome.
The problem seems to be visitors wandering around, possibly around
the flight line, and having little, if *any*, idea what is happening
and where the boundaries are. They don't need a warm welcome so much
as a courteous brief education -- "For your safety, please stand over
there now; the plane is about to take off; thank you." "For my safety,
please do not interrupt me now; I'm in the middle of a checklist;
you may stay and watch if you want; thanks"
I think visitors need to be managed (with courtesy) rather than
coddled. If the courtesy is there, and if it is made clear that
there is truly a safety issue, it will sound a lot less like a
"cold shoulder".
Jeff
Stephen O'Gallagher
someone wrote
>
> > Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
> >an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you except to
> >chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
> >often.
We have very friendly clubs, as long as they realise you really want to fly.
If you cant find a club in the USA to fly with, organise yourself a student exchange program
trip to Tamworth (try ROTARY), in country eastern Australia. If you are willing to go that
far I will organise to pay for all costs up to Bronze Badge (email me for details)
We have a bursary system in a number of clubs that actively supports young club members
in return for some ( not much) labour around the club, you get free flying up to
and some times past solo.
If that too big an ask, talk to the mid west clubs. The clubs around Denver were
very nice to me when I dropped in.
========================================================================
Stephen O'Gallagher ___
ste...@macqbl.com.au |
--------------(#)--------------
VH-GMZ Hornet
========================================================================
Bert Willing
je...@dosxx.genetics.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) wrote:
>
>Does anyone know of a soaring club that awards "scholarships" to
>worthy teenagers? This may have been previously suggested, but
>this seems like a great way to attract young talent. It appears
>that money is one primary hurdle for young folks that would like
>to soar. Awarding "junior" club memberships and training would
>give young pilots a running start.
>
>OTOH, that's a bit like being a drug dealer: get 'em hooked, then
>make 'em pay ;-).
>
> First one's free, second one's on me, third time you pay.
This scolarships do widely exist in France, and they work out very well.
In Germany, youngsters often have special rates in the clubs - I myself
got hooked by this way.
And I don't regret.
Cheers Bert
Donald Golden
Hans Trautenberg t2466 wrote:
>
> Guenther Seemann (S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE) wrote:
> : > Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
> : >an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you except to
> : >chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
> : >often.
>
> : American sailplane pilots.
>
> Are glider pilots in Germany that much different. I know of quite a few
> potential glider pilotes that were chased away form clubs.
Come to the Greater Houston Soaring Association gliderport outside Houston,
Texas. We welcome visitors, offer rides, explain how to become a soaring
pilot and promote soaring in every way. We delight in infecting youngsters
with the soaring bug.
In general we are proud of our airplanes, our facility and our sport and
want to share it with all.
_______________________________________________________________
Don Golden ___________ AspenTech
713 313 5016 | 9896 Bissonnet
<don.g...@aspentech.com> ^ Houston, Texas 77036
PZ ______________________(O)_________________________SZD-48
-
Nick O.
I Johnston (ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
: Johnston's Soaring Rule Number 16b: When striking up a conversation on
: an airfield, avoid anyone wearing sunglasses.
Here in Arizona, *everyone* wears sunglasses at our airfield.
Perhaps if you ever get here, you should change your rule to "avoid
anyone not wearing sunglasses?" :-)
Nick O.
Eagle Data
Thinking back to the challenges incured early in my soaring life. The
clubs I have experience with are not the best places to get instruction.
Several times I went out to the club field after becoming a member and
spent all day helping others on the flight line not to fly myself the
entire day. When I did get a flight in it was not always with an
instructor so progress towards solo was slow. I eventually went to a
commercial operation to get solo and private pilot glider.
In Orange County Soaring Associations defense I had a different first
experience with their club. I had a previous introduction to soaring at a
different club and I dropped in to evaluate OCSA to join. They were very
friendly and got me into a plane fairly quick. George (forgot last name)
was my pilot in a lark. We spun the glider a couple of revolutions, which
may not have been everyones cup of tea, but I loved it. Afterwards they
gave me a certificate for having experienced soaring. I decided to join a
different club only because of the smog that Perris airport sometimes
gets.
John Duprey
WM1 - Std Jantar
Eagle Data
In article <4nrvqs$a...@Axil.wave.co.nz>, roy...@wave.co.nz (Roy Edwards)
writes:
>Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
>members. Perhaps; shock, horror, the best source of new members are
>over 40 decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
>young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
I have to agree. Although I had an interest in flying as soon as I could
pick up a book with airplanes in it, at 16 I was more interested in
chasing girls than chasing clouds. Funny how priorities change. I'm now
36, my wife and I both prefer I chase clouds.
John Duprey
Jeff Knell
David S Habercom writes:
...snip...
I wonder if we need to shape our marketing effort more precisely and something like
this:
1) we should direct our efforts at achieving *visibility* toward a broad base, making
certain that we get exposure among the young, and
2) we should direct our *recruiting* efforts at a more mature crowd, people who
realistically can consider fulfilling the childhood dream of silent flight -- which,
one hopes, we would have nurtured through #1.
============================================
David has a good point about broad base visibility. Last Tuesday I did a
soaring presentation to my nephew's 8th grade class. The kids seemed very
interested and asked lots of good questions. When I was done I asked how
many of them wanted to take a glider ride, and just about everyone raised
their hand.
jeff
E Mooring
>My only reply would be if you did not want to do it badly enough that a
>few frowns could turn you away you probaly were not serious enough >about
>it in the first place..
when that person is greeted by such frowns.
There are very few people in the world that want to
do something as strange as fly in a motorless aircraft,
and if they show enough interest to come to a gliderport,
they deserve to be treated with respect and welcome.
Thank goodness I was, and I love the sport now.
Elmer Mooring (T8)
wol...@compaq.com
WILLIAM BERLE wrote:
[large section deleted]
> Clubs have to find a way to promote the sport and
> still tend to the wishes of their members. I believe that there has to
> be some way to not turn away people.
Bill, I agree with you, there must be a way to welcome people rather than turning your
back on them.
I had always wanted to fly powered planes but never had the money/time. On a business
trip to New Zealand I happened upon a soaring club outside Wellington (actually the
Wellington Soaring Club). It took a bit to find out where everyone was (club house was
empty - everyone was on the field) but once I did I was warmly welcomed. I was politely
asked to stay near the trailer (sorry, caravan :-) that served as their operation
center on the field. I was told it would be a bit before I could go up as they had to
call another pilot to come out. While waiting I had a nice conversation with a older
woman (a student) who was more than happy to tell me about soaring.
Ross Sutherland was the gentleman who agreed to come out and fly this "wanna be" around.
Ross was great. He asked if I could help him pull out another glider; a nice glass one
rather than one of the older aluminum ones (sorry, aluminium ones).
Ross had me fly it nearly the entire time (45 min) except for takeoff and landing.
Looking back on the flight I can't believe how timid I was with the plane; afraid of
breaking the wings off I guess. It could not have been a better day; a beautiful place
to soar, the people were great, and I got to fly it!!! A most memorable day.
After I got home I found the money and made the time to learn to soar. I searched for a
local place to fly and found Soar Hollister (50 minutes south of San Jose, California).
While a commercial operation they have a nice family atmosphere and you feel welcome
there. My son (16) and I are now working toward our practical test and having a great
time doing it. I try to make it a point to welcome new people in return for the
wonderful receiption I received from the folks at Wellington Soaring. I'm never too
busy to be polite and always happy to share the pleasure I receive from flying.
All the best,
wayne
John Wright
For the most part we wear sunglasses in England too, though you might at
first think it unnecessary given the climate :-) Most people these days
live in an urban environment, and getting out on to an airfield exposes
them to *much* higher light levels than they normally expereince. Its often
just a case of comfort...
Brian D. Voce
r...@fc.hp.com (Rich Carr) writes:
>SAT AP (sa...@aol.com) wrote:
>: My only reply would be if you did not want to do it badly enough that a
>: few frowns could turn you away you probaly were not serious enough about
>: it in the first place..
>This puts it too bluntly, but I think some of the bad rap of clubs
>comes from folks who wander out onto a ramp where pilots are busy
>assembling gliders and preparing for a task, and do not welcome
>interruptions.
NO NO NO. Anyone who walks into a gliding club for the first time is out
of their comfort zone. You MUST make them welcome. When a stranger is
seen at a gliding club, the first person who notices them should walk up,
say hi, ask if they are a visitor and then either show them round or
introduce them to someone who can help them.
REMEMBER - FIRST IMPRESSION LAST
One club in WA has managed to change the culture of their existing
members. They make visitors welcome and they now have new members coming
out of their ears. They are even discussing the possibility of closing
the membership.
Baron D Vice
RJKonrath
In article <JEFFK.96M...@dosxx.genetics.utah.edu>,
je...@dosxx.genetics.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:
>Does anyone know of a soaring club that awards "scholarships" to
>worthy teenagers? This may have been previously suggested, but
>this seems like a great way to attract young talent. It appears
>that money is one primary hurdle for young folks that would like
>to soar. Awarding "junior" club memberships and training would
>give young pilots a running start.
The Chicagoland Glider Council is awarding two $500 scholarships per year
for the years 1995 through 1999 (ten in all). While not limited to young
people, though both 1995 awards were to teenagers, anyone in the
Chicagoland area can apply if they are interested in earning a rating they
do not have be it a private, commercial, or instructor ticket.
Application consists of a letter of recommendation from the applicant's
soaring operation and preparing an essay about a soaring flight or a
soaring related activity.
Ray Konrath (LK)
Bill King
David S Habercom wrote:
>
> Roy Edwards wrote:
> >
> > >> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
> > >> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
> > >> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
> >
> > over 40, decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
> > young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
> >
>
> Good question, especially since it comes from Roy, who is a cold-hearted capitalist
> with a penchant for looking at the bottom line.
>
> I suppose I would argue that, to capture them at 40, we need to cultivate them at 15.
> Thus, we need to appeal to teenagers.
>
> However, Roy's question does pose the brutal truth that the people who actually can
> afford the time and money that soaring demands, even in the World Class, belong in the
> group he more-or-less names.
>
> this:
>
> 1) we should direct our efforts at achieving *visibility* toward a broad base, making
> certain that we get exposure among the young, and
>
> 2) we should direct our *recruiting* efforts at a more mature crowd, people who
> realistically can consider fulfilling the childhood dream of silent flight -- which,
> one hopes, we would have nurtured through #1.
>
> comments posted here.
>
> David Habercom
> President
> World Class Soaring Association
So David, Does your comments about Roy mean that the PW-5 and your group
should be renamed to the "Socialist Class" Soaring Association?
Not only do we need an affordable glider but also learning to fly must
be affordable also. Lets face the fact that this is not going to happen
at commercial operations where the cost will be from $1200-$2000 to get
you private ticket. Very few teenagers have this laying around. Clubs
are doing the best they can. Folks just don't have a lot of spare cash
laying around.
Last week while at the Blanik Meet at New Castle we were discussing this
very issue. It is fine to include teenagers in the over all scope of
thing but we do have a bigger problem then just attracting teenagers to
the sport. For every 1 pilot that flys X-C there are another 5-8 that
don't. The number may be even greater than that. What are we doing as
a group to show new pilots that you can do more then just fly around the
airport, beside folks with glass ships landing in the evening talking
about where they have been.
As I said to Penn Smith last weekend, "What are we doing to teach X-C?"
It is not mandatory to have a X-C flight prior to getting your glider
rating like in powered planes. So why bother with the expense. I think
that some of the European countrys require this.
Once we convince folks here in the U.S. that soaring is not just
floating around the airport then we might get some where. A lot of
folks just don't realize that you can fly 300-1000km in a plane without
an engine.
Regards,
Bill King
Member of the
cold hearted capitlist club.
Billevelyn
Let's not forget that soaring isn't for the meek. Nor is it wise to be
thin skinned. Perhaps a little "roll off the shoulder" mentality would
help many who feel slighted when first visiting a glider club.
Let's face it, if you can't take a little cold shoulder now and then, your
probably a little too sensitive.
Bill
Roy
In article <31A230...@UTK.EDU> David S Habercom <D-HAB...@UTK.EDU> writes:
>From: David S Habercom <D-HAB...@UTK.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Any PW5 gossip?
>Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:07:08 -0700
>Good question, especially since it comes from Roy, who is a cold-hearted
>capitalist with a penchant for looking at the bottom line.
>I suppose I would argue that, to capture them at 40, we need to cultivate them
>at 15. Thus, we need to appeal to teenagers.
I am glad to see this topic getting a good airing (pun intended).
Thanks to the many who e-mailed me directly.
The majority of respondents seem to think that the discussion was based on
teenagers OR wrinklies. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
Consider if you will the flow on affect of a SUCCESSFUL World Class Soaring
environment with lots of media exposure. If we need to build the initial
numbers with mature, monied individuals to enable us to expand the base then
so be it.
We will then be in a position to embrace the teenagers with structures that
allow them to participate fully. This participation could be via sponsored
training (see the comments from European clubs). Participation could also be
enhanced by age group, high profile, low cost competitions.
Lets start thinking a little laterally gentleman (said as I have had no
comments from the other half of the population!)
Roy
>Does anyone know of a soaring club that awards "scholarships" to
>worthy teenagers? This may have been previously suggested, but
>this seems like a great way to attract young talent. It appears
>that money is one primary hurdle for young folks that would like
>to soar. Awarding "junior" club memberships and training would
>give young pilots a running start.
The awarding of scholarships in our experience needs to extend to solo if you
do not want the student leaving the movement. Remember, some young people do
actually change their minds about what they want to do with their limited
finances.
Roy
I
>someone wrote
>>
>> > Every time I've been around sailplanes, I've found the people were
>> >an unfriendly bunch. In general, they wouldn't even talk to you except to
>> >chase you away. How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away
>> >often.
First approach to a club generates a different response if the visitor says
something like.
I am new/interested is there anything I can do to help around here?
J. Peter Aarnaes
Like Niles, I took my first ride at an early age (14) at the fantastic operation
then operating at El Mirage, CA... Unfortunately, I did not have the means for
further rides for another 16 years! I never stopped thinking about soaring though
and as a result of that early *hooking* I am now able to seriously pursue this
sport.
I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that we must be open and welcoming to new
members... whatever their age or other characteristics.
J. Peter Aarnaes Std Cirrus AE
A.Murray
Bert Willing <Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> wrote:
>je...@dosxx.genetics.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) wrote:
>>Does anyone know of a soaring club that awards "scholarships" to
>>worthy teenagers? [snip]
>This scolarships do widely exist in France, and they work out very well.
>In Germany, youngsters often have special rates in the clubs [snip]
>Cheers Bert
Our club (Cambridge Gliding Club
see http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/richard_baker_cgc/)
runs a very successful "cadetship" scheme for up to 6 youngsters
who enjoy heavily subsidised membership and flying. In return they
are encouraged to help around the club and expected to assist at our
Regionals. Most are very keen to be involved in the Regionals -
imagine it a whole 10 days of messing around at the airfield with
lots going on! Several of our cadets have continued their interest
and remained in the gliding movement either with us or at their
universities. I hope other clubs may be encouraged to offer such
schemes by our very positive experience.
Alistair
bi...@airmail.net
This is just the sort of warm welcome I look for when I venture into
an unfamiliar place full of strangers.
Wayne Albus
roy...@wave.co.nz (Roy Edwards) wrote:
>r...@utw.com wrote:
>>> Walt Weaver (ww...@netcom.com) wrote:
>>> : AND, on to my next point. We need ways to attract young (like
>>> : teenagers, not people in their 40's) people into this sport.
>Lets start facing reality and define our best marketplace for new
>members. Perhaps; shock, horror, the best source of new members are
>over 40 decent income, less need to devote large amounts of time to a
>young family etc etc Why are we concentrating on teenagers?
>Roy
In my case I think Roy hits it pretty well. Way back when I was in
school I read some books on soaring. I was interested but growing up
a midwest farm boy there was no money to pursue it. After graduation
there were just to many other things to do, and they didn't cost as
much. But the dream didn't die. About 2 years ago I started checking
into it. I'm 40 now, own a home and have 2 kids that will be
graduating in 2 yrs and 5 yrs from now. Right now it's little time &
little money. I figure in about 5 yrs I'll be able to start. But for
now I'm on the side lines, "sigh".
Wayne
r...@utw.com
> SAT AP (sa...@aol.com) wrote:
> : My only reply would be if you did not want to do it badly enough that a
> : few frowns could turn you away you probaly were not serious enough
> : about it in the first place..
Frowns? How about "If you don't own a plane here, you can't be
ON THE AIRPORT" (emphasis mine) which sums up my welcome from glider
pilots in several states. I started this thread, and I'll say a bit more after this
guy.
>> This puts it too bluntly, but I think some of the bad rap of clubs
>> comes from folks who wander out onto a ramp where pilots are busy
>> assembling gliders and preparing for a task, and do not welcome
>> interruptions.
>> then the visitor is likely to get a cold shoulder from a
>> bunch of pilots intent on their tasks. - Rich Carr
Man, now that's arrogance. *I'm* the jerk?! Hey, I repair avionics
for a living. During a small adventure held in Southeast Asia, I was in the
Strategic Air Command. We launched sixty to eighty B-52s or Stratotankers
every day, and I repaired the radar, ILS, transponders, VORs and TACANs on
them. Same for the Nuclear Strike Team B-52s stateside. I worked the same
type of job as a civilian at BWI (that's Baltimore-Washington DC International
Airport), just to be around aircraft. I've flown solo for twenty years, on oxygen
when necessary, and none of my airtime was powered, or in sailplanes.
Nobody asked.
All that to say, I DO know how to be out-of-the-way around aircraft.
I would NEVER interrupt a preflight, and seldom got a chance to, which is
the center theme here. One example of "chased away" follows:
One time I went to xxxxx airport and stopped in the main building,
nowhere near the gliders, to ask about current weather readings. Carl
Malmstem (retired businessman) and Eric Schoen (mountain climber) were
with me. One sailplane pilot there said it loud: "you're hang glider pilots? If I
see you up there, I'm going to RAM you!" Everyone within earshot, including
the behind-the-counter personnel, nodded in agreement, though.
I haven't been near that airport since. Seems this guy was pissed
about getting out-climbed by "some guy in a hang glider" on a beanpole-
thermal day (Uh, guilty! <G> ). But I mean, DEATH threats?! Luckily, I had
been about 500' above him at the time, quite out of his reach, and stayed
above him for an hour or two, until he finally flew away.
Oh yeah, we never got the weather briefing we asked for that day,
either.
I am not surprised there is this "lack of pilots interested in soaring"
perceived in the sailplane community today. I love flying, any way I can. I get
plenty of hours. You're missing a lot of good people (or useful; I do know my
radio repair stuff and I like helping folks). Well, I just thought you should
know why.
SageVarios
Maby we can learn a lesson from history, when hitler wanted to build
intrest in avation he started kids building and flying models. This is the
same way I started into soaring, model gliders at 13, first glider flight
at 14, student licence at 19 now private pilot glider rating. I think you
need to educate people young to start the intrest and it can last a
lifetime why dosent the soaring society support model flying for kids this
would be a great way to introduce future potental members to the concept
of motorless flight. This could be done through donations to model
organitions for kits and supplies these groups would like to have more
exposure also therefore it would be mutualy benifical.
Pete Russell
Sagev...@aol.com
Billevelyn
bick wrote:
>This is just the sort of warm welcome I look for when I venture into
>an unfamiliar place full of strangers.
I aim to please bick.
Bill
Rich Carr
r...@utw.com wrote:
: >> This puts it too bluntly, but I think some of the bad rap of clubs
: >> comes from folks who wander out onto a ramp where pilots are busy
: >> assembling gliders and preparing for a task, and do not welcome
: >> interruptions.
: >> then the visitor is likely to get a cold shoulder from a
: >> bunch of pilots intent on their tasks. - Rich Carr
: Man, now that's arrogance. *I'm* the jerk?!
I'm sorry if you thought I was laying blame on the visitor. I wasn't,
as my follow-up message indicated. I was simply trying to explain how
misunderstandings may occur. On our field, we try to intercept
visitors, give them a full tour of the facilities, fully describe the
pros and cons of soaring in general and our club in particular, give
them material to take home with them, and give them a ride if
the schedule allows it. But there is the occasional visitor who
is attracted to the flight line and never gets to the office.
I can imagine that a distracted 'hello' from a busy pilot may
be misinterpreted as a cold shoulder. I do think pilots can
and should do better than this.
Frankly, I've never seen the outright hostility many folks are describing
here, at my club or any other. The worst I've seen is the sort of
situation I've described above.
: All that to say, I DO know how to be out-of-the-way around aircraft.
: I would NEVER interrupt a preflight, and seldom got a chance to, which is
: the center theme here. One example of "chased away" follows:
I'm sorry you took what I said personally. With your background, I'm
sure you know how to behave. I was referring to folks who don't
know any better, since this is their first trip to a gliderport.
I wasn't laying blame, simply trying to suggest how misunderstandings
occur.
: One time I went to xxxxx airport and stopped in the main building,
: nowhere near the gliders, to ask about current weather readings. Carl
: Malmstem (retired businessman) and Eric Schoen (mountain climber) were
: with me. One sailplane pilot there said it loud: "you're hang glider pilots? If I
: see you up there, I'm going to RAM you!" Everyone within earshot, including
: the behind-the-counter personnel, nodded in agreement, though.
Yep, you're right, these are real jerks. Unless they simply had a
misplaced sense of humor, in which case they are just amateur jerks.
- Rich Carr
Billevelyn
> How does a kid get past that and fly? I got chased away often.
Many places offer free soaring for work. They train you FREE, if you drag
gliders around and do the grunt work. Turf soaring seems to be one of the
clubs and I'll bet all the big commercial places do it.
Bill
Tabean
imho-generally speaking as in any other aspect of life the more arrogant
people are the more insecure they are with there own abilities and
talents.
I Johnston
Nick O. (ni...@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: I Johnston (ia...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
: : Johnston's Soaring Rule Number 16b: When striking up a conversation on
: : an airfield, avoid anyone wearing sunglasses.
: Here in Arizona, *everyone* wears sunglasses at our airfield.
: Perhaps if you ever get here, you should change your rule to "avoid
: anyone not wearing sunglasses?" :-)
OK, let out number one is that if everyone wears sunglasses this rule
fails and we can move onto 16b(i)
"When striking up a conversation on an airfield, avoid anyone wearing
sunglasses which cost more than your shoes"
In this country it's also a good idea to avoid anyone carrying an
umbrella. Practical, of course, but just a bit pessimistic.
Ian
Raphael Warshaw
Good point; I came to it well over 40 - couldn't have afforded it earlier.
Ray Warshaw
Javert
>>this seems like a great way to attract young talent. It appears
>>that money is one primary hurdle for young folks that would like
>>to soar. Awarding "junior" club memberships and training would
>>give young pilots a running start.
There's a huge one out here in Canada...The organization is the Royal
Canadian Air Cadets of Canada, with a couple hundred full glider
scholarships awarded each year.
--
Ivan Yiu / 707 Etobicoke Sqn / W02 / CRGS 94 , POWER 95
"I've chased the shouting "Stars, in your multitudes
wind along and flung my Scarce to be counted,
craft through footless Filling the darkness, with
halls of air..." Order and light..."
P/0 J. Gillespie Magee Jr. Javert, Les Miserables.
"The truth IS out there, but so are lies." Scully, X-files.
Neil McLeod
average age of participants is now over 40 with income in the 50k range.
--
Neil McLeod ES
John Cochrane
Neil McLeod <pbed...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>It is interesting that according to a recent issue of "Hang Gliding" the
>average age of participants is now over 40 with income in the 50k range.
>--
>
>Neil McLeod ES
Think of it. 15,000 pilots who know how to thermal, are hot to fly cross country,
are realizing that a new $5,000 glider every 2-3 years isn't all that cheap after
all, and are getting to the age that flying sitting down for a while might be nice.
And whose spouses are already used to flying addictions. Now there is a market to
expand soaring!
John Cochrane
Pegasus DK
Neil McLeod
come from this background
--
Neil McLeod Ventus ES
Raymond J. Buhr
Absolutely right!
I took my first glider flight at age 12 at SOSA after an outing to the
African Lion Safari next to the gliding club.
Twenty three years later I had the time, money and wheels and have joined
that very same club.
Granted theres a delay but its like a holy grail once your hooked.
--
_______
Raymond Buhr SO|SA
(ac...@freenet.toronto.on.ca) __________________/^\___________________
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada \_/
fiz
Can anyone say "Young eagles"? If you don't know what it is, contact your local EAA
chapter, or the SSA who sponsors it along with the EAA. I've made arrangements to give
kids (aka Young Eagles) a ride in our Grob 103 at our local Young Eagle turnout, June
8. Occasionally some of our members have set up a static display in previous years.
You should hear some of the comments I'm getting from 'non-soaring pilots' about
gliders...
Great, another static display, we can dig up some ropes to put around the glider to
keep people away from it.
You're actually going to *fly* the glider!?!
Do gliders have radios?
Are you going to land in the grass between the runway and taxiway?
Can I have a ride too?
and the list goes on...I think most power pilots get the idea glider pilots like big
shiney glass birds cuz they look good when having their picture taken beside it. After
all, gliders don't really fly, do they? I've gotten a surprising amount of support wrt
giving kids a chance to ride in a glider. A friend recently quoted someone as saying
"The problem with soarings image is that it has no image". My apologies to anyone who
wants to claim this.
ttfn fiz
Walt Weaver
In article <31AB28...@primenet.com>, pbed...@primenet.com says...
>> Think of it. 15,000 pilots who know how to thermal, are hot to fly cross
country,
>> are realizing that a new $5,000 glider every 2-3 years isn't all that cheap
after
>> all, and are getting to the age that flying sitting down for a while might
be nice.
>> And whose spouses are already used to flying addictions. Now there is a
market to
>> expand soaring!
This is a GREAT idea. I kind of started this thread about getting
teenagers into the sport. While it's true about people in their 40's
having the best chance of affording a soaring pasttime (I'm one of'em!)
I think it's still important to get teenagers interested. Give'em an
intro ride! Even if they don't come back, that seed will be sown. It
happened to me. I took my first ride when I was 22 (OKAY, not a teenager,
but same idea), and the thought of flying gliders stayed with me for
20 years.
I know a LOT of hang glider pilots who are looking to move into
sailplanes. We've got a few of'em at our place. Some of them are like
me. My knees are so arthritic I can't absorb the shock of a hang glider
landing. In fact, I can't absorb the shock of wing-walking my 2-33 out
to the end of the runway, but that's another story :). Other hang
glider pilots are looking to fly something with an L/D better than
18/1, and are excited about XC.
The opportunities for finding new "addictees" are endless. It doesn't
take much effort at all to find'em.
--Walt Weaver
ww...@netcom.com
KB0VHB (amateur radio)
Highlands Ranch, Colorado USA
Andrew Kelly
>>Neil McLeod <pbed...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>It is interesting that according to a recent issue of "Hang Gliding" the
>>average age of participants is now over 40 with income in the 50k range.
>>--
>>
>>Neil McLeod ES
>Think of it. 15,000 pilots who know how to thermal, are hot to fly cross >country,
>are realizing that a new $5,000 glider every 2-3 years isn't all that cheap >after
>all, and are getting to the age that flying sitting down for a while might >be nice.
>And whose spouses are already used to flying addictions. Now there is a >market to
>expand soaring!
>John Cochrane
>Pegasus DK
Will the congregation please rise and give our brother an Amen!!
--
--------------------------------------------
--Andrew-- | I'd rather be sail(plane)ing
Berlin Germany
John H Henderson
>This is a GREAT idea. I kind of started this thread about getting
>teenagers into the sport. While it's true about people in their 40's
>having the best chance of affording a soaring pasttime (I'm one of'em!)
>I think it's still important to get teenagers interested.
I am a 29-year-old graduate student who has wanted to fly more than
anything my whole life. The death of my father when I was in high school
left my family in a less-than-ideal financial condition. I did not have
the money to learn to fly, until I found the local club here, Southern
Eagles Soaring. Learning to fly with them was affordable to me because
of one thing: GROUND LAUNCHING. Our club members are kind of evangelistic
about ground launching. Not all locations can do this, but give it a thought
if you haven't tried already. Several of my club members gave talks at
Huntsville, and the tapes are available. Derrek Piggott also recently
released an EXCELLENT book on the topic.
I think that ignoring younger people because they don't have the income to
participate is a BIG mistake. We need to catch them when they're young,
strong, enthusiastic and full of energy. Unfortunately, I have seen
an attitude in the sport that everyone in soaring is made of money. For
example, attitudes like, "Well, if you spend so much money on a plane, and
tows, etc, x-hundred/thousand dollars for such-and-such should be no big
deal." I truly hope that the underlaying attitudes are not that of maintaining
some kind of exclusivity among soaring pilots. We must look for ways to make
the sport more accessible on the lower end.
>I know a LOT of hang glider pilots who are looking to move into
>sailplanes. We've got a few of'em at our place.
I've met some of these, too. This is an excellent "market" to tap into.
I had a hang glider pilot tell me something like, "I was in this thermal
with a sailplane, and I was outclimbing it, but when he left it, he
was GONE, and I never saw him again." He said this with a misty, far-away
look in his eye. This is why he was at the field learning to fly sailplanes.
Along the same lines of excluding people because of cost, I've also heard
the hang glider pilots say that they are often treated as though they
are unwelcome when they drive to a glider port and happen to have their
hang gliders strapped to the roof. If we want soaring to grow, this
attitude needs to be changed, too.
John H. Henderson - Department of Electrical Engineering - Auburn University
----+----
jo...@eng.auburn.edu | http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~johnh
`---=========================(-)============================---'
"That's not flying... " that's falling with style!"
-- Woody in "Toy Story"
Nick Gilbert
>Does anyone know of a soaring club that awards "scholarships" to
>worthy teenagers? This may have been previously suggested, but
>this seems like a great way to attract young talent. It appears
>that money is one primary hurdle for young folks that would like
>to soar. Awarding "junior" club memberships and training would
>give young pilots a running start.
I'm 18 and went solo last summer at Booker Gliding club.
I've probably spent about 300-400 pounds so far and I've had 60 aerotow
launches in that price...
Booker operates a cadet scheme whereby you can work for the club a couple
of days a month and they only charge you £7 for a 2000 foot tow and no
soaring fees. Without this scheme there's no way I would have done any
more than my trial flight and I think the scheme is invaluable to people
like me... I will continue gliding for the forseeable future and I am
looking into taking up micrlighting if I can find a
scholarship/bursary/subsidy etc... IF ONLY!!
If anyone knows of any.... :)
Nick......
Graham Skelly
John Whiting
In article: <4o3u2o$j79$1...@perth.DIALix.oz.au> bv...@perth.DIALix.oz.au
(Brian D. Voce) writes:
>
> NO NO NO. Anyone who walks into a gliding club for the first time is out
> of their comfort zone. You MUST make them welcome. When a stranger is
> seen at a gliding club, the first person who notices them should walk up,
> say hi, ask if they are a visitor and then either show them round or
> introduce them to someone who can help them.
>
> REMEMBER - FIRST IMPRESSION LAST
>
> One club in WA has managed to change the culture of their existing
> members. They make visitors welcome and they now have new members coming
> out of their ears. They are even discussing the possibility of closing
> the membership.
>
True, this is our clubs experience. There are quite a few clubs in the
local area with better kit than we have but as a newish club we are very
friendly. It is paying dividends as this year we have already signed up 21
new members and are also thinking of closing membership until we have the
new winch and single seaters. It also means that our courses are going well
as we get a lot of people comming after word of mouth recommendations. Being
friendly is a culture and definitely pays(and a whole lot more fun.).
--
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| John Whiting EMail jo...@bga3997.demon.co.uk
|
| Shenington Gliding Club. UK
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