Mini-Nimbus experience
rches...@scescape.net
time glider pilot (60 hrs).
Rich
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W7ADK
>time glider pilot (60 hrs).
>
>
What gliders have you flown?
Wayne
DSI
Safety:
- auto connecting controls: quick and safe
- flaps with landing position (+10 deg); stall speed <60 km/h;
- very efficient airbrakes combined with the flaps; very safe landings, even
in short fields (outlanding)
Performance
- low speed: correct climb
- high speed: above 180 km/h, better than a Discus; but you will have to
learn to use the flaps efficiently
Comfort:
- very large cockpit space: comfortable and a lot of room for accessories
- trim control moves with flaps control; set it only once at the beginning
of the flight
- too light control efforts: can be tiring on bumpy days; you will find it
more comfortable with at least 40 kg of water ballast
Just my 2 cents.
Pierre
rches...@scescape.net a écrit dans le message
<6qsqdv$aq5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Any experience and thoughts on the Mini-nimbus reference suitability for
low
>time glider pilot (60 hrs).
>
Mark Langenfeld
: >Any experience and thoughts on the Mini-nimbus reference suitability for low
: >time glider pilot (60 hrs).
: >
: What gliders have you flown?
: Wayne
Wayne raises the most important point. The Mini is not an inherently
difficult glider to fly ... just different. The optimal transition ship
is the one that introduces the fewest differences (aside from
performance) from what you are used to. If you haven't flown a flapped
ship or one with a one-piece (all-moving) horizontal tail (only the C
model has a fixed horizontal stab and elevators), you would be taking a
pretty big step.
Again, the Mini can be a very nice glider. For most low-time pilots,
though, there are better "first glass" candidates.
Good luck!
Mark -- "B9"
James Dezelle
>
> Again, the Mini can be a very nice glider. For most low-time pilots,
> though, there are better "first glass" candidates.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Mark -- "B9"
access to 1-26s and 1-36s?
Thanks,
Jim
Armand A. Medeiros
>
> Any experience and thoughts on the Mini-nimbus reference suitability for low
> time glider pilot (60 hrs).
>
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Just had this same conversation with an experienced FAA
Examiner/CFIG/gazillion hour dude. Actually looked at a mini-nimbus up
close and compared to the new 304CZ that is out (same configuration).
The main complaint seems to be the FLAP-COUPLED spoilers. The argument
is "when you retract flaps at landing speeds, the lift decreases". This
could (will) cause a drop in altitude that may not be appreciated at low
AG-Levels. Because of this, spoiler coupled flaps are more complicated
to use and have some drawbacks and are therefore not recommended for
beginners.
However, it is conceded, that with proper awareness and training, it is
one of the most effective systems available so long as proper pattern
planning around the flap-spoiler retraction limitations are implemented.
2cts
AAM
Sage Variometers
Just a comment on the flap/spoiler landing the only point I would not
decrease the ammount of flap/spoiler I have out is actualy during the
flair. On a standard landing I actualy increase the ammount of
flap/spoiler during the flair, try that with a standard spoiler and you
will probbaly have a broken landing gear! during most training we are all
tought to set the spoilers and leave them there anyway.
Pete Russell
Glasflugel 304
Armand A. Medeiros
>
> Armand A. Medeiros wrote:
>
> Just a comment on the flap/spoiler landing the only point I would not
> decrease the ammount of flap/spoiler I have out is actualy during the
> flair. On a standard landing I actualy increase the ammount of
> flap/spoiler during the flair, try that with a standard spoiler and you
> will probbaly have a broken landing gear! during most training we are all
> tought to set the spoilers and leave them there anyway.
>
> Pete Russell
> Glasflugel 304
This is how I was taught. However, flying in the S. California area,
there are many occasions where modulating the spoilers SLIGHTLY is
necessary to avoid BANGING the glider. Wind shear, gusts, dust devils,
etc all play a part. In my Peg, I am sometimes not fast enough to close
or open the spoilers as required for the situation...usually results in
a bounce. On those high wind days, approach speed can be in the 70 knot
or above range and opening the spoilers fully at about 1 foot AGL is no
problem at all.
I am curious as to the use on your 304. Can you go from full spoiler to
nill spoiler at 10 feet AGL (wind shear adjustment) and not drop like a
rock? Isn't that why all later generation ships went to SH type spoilers
and standard flaps? Are not SH type spoilers easier and more precise to
control without the lose-of-lift-impact problem associated with coupled
flap/trailing edge spoilers?
AAM
Bert Willing
Armand A. Medeiros wrote:
> I am curious as to the use on your 304. Can you go from full spoiler to
> nill spoiler at 10 feet AGL (wind shear adjustment) and not drop like a
> rock? Isn't that why all later generation ships went to SH type spoilers
> and standard flaps? Are not SH type spoilers easier and more precise to
> control without the lose-of-lift-impact problem associated with coupled
> flap/trailing edge spoilers?
>
> AAM
You can put those spoilers away in any situation. Actually, if you put them
away during flare and while still being 5-10 km/h above stall speed, you'll
start a climb. The flaps increase the angle of attack, and the spoilers
decrease the lift coefficient of the wing and and enhance the drag
coefficient.
Maybe you should try it before making comments?
Ciao
--
Bert Willing
Caproni Calif D-6600
Visit the airfield of La Motte du Caire in the French Alps:
http://www.decollage.org/la_motte/
Mark Stevens
to pull full flap/brake on approach simply to minimise the float which can
be very pronounced otherwise.. Yes you can put the brakes away, but
gently - there is a contra effect between flap going away and brake going
away of which the flap effect appears more significant.. You need to watch
your speed and maintain it all the way down.. If your airspeed is bleeding
(you really need to push to maintain it) all bets are off..
In terms of suitability for an early hours pilot I would not suggest it
simply because it is different, not difficult.. If the early hours pilot
has reasonable flap experience that would mitigate my view..
Bert Willing
Mark Stevens wrote:
> As a Mosquito B owner (same wing as the mini-nimbus AFAIK) I tend always
> to pull full flap/brake on approach simply to minimise the float which can
> be very pronounced otherwise.. Yes you can put the brakes away, but
> gently - there is a contra effect between flap going away and brake going
> away of which the flap effect appears more significant.. You need to watch
> your speed and maintain it all the way down.. If your airspeed is bleeding
> (you really need to push to maintain it) all bets are off..
>
> In terms of suitability for an early hours pilot I would not suggest it
> simply because it is different, not difficult.. If the early hours pilot
> has reasonable flap experience that would mitigate my view..
Yep - I think that speed control during final is the critical point on this
system. I've quite some time on a modified Hornet (called SB 12) with
numerous outlandings (well, I was a low time pilot then ...) and it
definitely needs some training.
But given the fact that a low time pilot may train on a 3000 ft runway during
his initial flights, there's no problem with this type of ships - he'd never
learn it without doing anyway, and all risk he takes is to make looong
landings, but not to crash.
Sage Variometers
>
> Sage Variometers wrote:
> >
> > Armand A. Medeiros wrote:
> >
> > Just a comment on the flap/spoiler landing the only point I would not
> > decrease the ammount of flap/spoiler I have out is actualy during the
> > flair. On a standard landing I actualy increase the ammount of
> > flap/spoiler during the flair, try that with a standard spoiler and you
> > will probbaly have a broken landing gear! during most training we are all
> > tought to set the spoilers and leave them there anyway.
> >
> > Pete Russell
> > Glasflugel 304
>
> This is how I was taught. However, flying in the S. California area,
> there are many occasions where modulating the spoilers SLIGHTLY is
> necessary to avoid BANGING the glider. Wind shear, gusts, dust devils,
> etc all play a part. In my Peg, I am sometimes not fast enough to close
> or open the spoilers as required for the situation...usually results in
> a bounce. On those high wind days, approach speed can be in the 70 knot
> or above range and opening the spoilers fully at about 1 foot AGL is no
> problem at all.
>
> nill spoiler at 10 feet AGL (wind shear adjustment) and not drop like a
> rock? Isn't that why all later generation ships went to SH type spoilers
> and standard flaps? Are not SH type spoilers easier and more precise to
> control without the lose-of-lift-impact problem associated with coupled
> flap/trailing edge spoilers?
>
> AAM
I would say yes you could close them but do it slowly and not at stall speed as I said the only time I would not close them is actualy during
the flair when speed is bleeding off and you are approaching stall speed at this point you want to get on the ground and slowed down as quick
as possible so you open them more. There are some gliders that I can think of that if you have the spoilers open fully on landing the sink rate
is so high you will BANG the glider. SH type spoilers seem to add mostly sink rate with a little bit of drag while spoiler/flaps add mostly
drag.
Pete
Armand A. Medeiros
>
> Ciao
Ciao, it was clear in my post that this was a dicussion with another
knowledgeable CFIG. I have flown ships with flaps (152 & PIK-20D) and am
aware of the problem of putting them away down low. I was only passing
on what I learned from the Mosquito driver and the CFIG.
AAM
Jonathan Gogan
When pilots are ready to move upto/into a
flapped ship,
what sort of trainer would you recommend.
JiN
Stefan Schumacher
Jonathan Gogan schrieb:
When a pilot is "ready" to move into a flapped ship, I would put him
into the Mini Nimbus and tell him: If You are high enough try out what
You can do with Your flaps, with all the slowly flying, You hopefully
did in Your flight training. I don愒 think, it愀 necessary to have a
trainer to do that. It愀 different, but not as much as You may believe.
Stefan
Mark Langenfeld
: When pilots are ready to move upto/into a
: flapped ship,
: what sort of trainer would you recommend.
There are three major things that can cause unfamiliarity problems when
transitioning to a flapped ship:
(1) The risk of "dumping" (or over-modulating) flaps on final;
(2) The much steeper approach than unflapped ships, and the related
requirement for a positive and moderately aggressive round-out
(whereupon the glider quickly loses energy and lands); and
(3) Because of factors (1) and (2), the inexperienced pilot has a
slightly greater risk of landing short once committed to full-flaps.
An hour or two with a CFI/CFIG in a Cessna 150 (preferably with manual
flaps) would be time well spent. Some full-flap power-off approaches and a
few flap "dumping" exercises at a safe altitude would be very instructive.
Follow that up with thorough cockpit familiarization drills in the
flapped sailplane and a couple of high tows with simulated approaches at
altitude, and you should be in good shape. Most importantly, work closely
with a CFIG experinced in coaching these types of transitions.
Bill Berle
> When a pilot is "ready" to move into a flapped ship, I would put him
> into the Mini Nimbus and tell him: If You are high enough try out what
> You can do with Your flaps, with all the slowly flying, You hopefully
> trainer to do that. It´s different, but not as much as You may believe.
I think this is the correct response, but with one addiiton. I believe
some versions of the Janus two seater had the same dive brake/flaps.
Several landings in this aircraft with an experienced pilot would make
the transition into the Mini very easy. Secondly, it would be imperative
on the Mini-Nimbus to climb or two high enough on the first flight to
fully explore the dive brakes. The airplane flies just like any other hi
performance sailplane, but the dive brakes are truly spectacular in
their operation, and do require a different approach/landing. I once
made a vertical dive from a 1500 foot base leg onto final approach, the
brakes kept the speed far below redline and I landed within the first
1000 feet of runway. Only aircraft with those brakes (Mini-Nimbus,
Ventus, 304, Mosquito, etc) can do that safely. After the first lessons
in the use of those brakes, these aircraft will allow a beginner to make
more mistakes and recover frome them than other aircraft. These dive
brakes will let you descend blind through cloud without fear of
overspeed, they will land a Mini-Nimbus within 400 feet of powerlines or
trees on the near end of a short field, etc.
Bill Berle
former owner Mini-Nimbus, Ventus
Uwe Hagenauer
>
> As a Mosquito B owner (same wing as the mini-nimbus AFAIK) I tend always
> to pull full flap/brake on approach simply to minimise the float which can
> be very pronounced otherwise.. Yes you can put the brakes away, but
> gently - there is a contra effect between flap going away and brake going
> away of which the flap effect appears more significant.. You need to watch
> your speed and maintain it all the way down.. If your airspeed is bleeding
> (you really need to push to maintain it) all bets are off..
Hi,
as a Mini-Nimbus owner I would discourage from putting flaps/spoilers away
slowly. I you do this, you will first loose the additional lift the flaps give
you, while you still have the additional drag of the spoilers. If you have
spoilers/flaps full out just put them in very quickly. Best thing to do: Try
it in high altitude!
Regards,
Uwe
Mini-Nimbus D-3168
Albin O. Schreiter
It's safer to retract flaps/airbrakes fast and completely, and then
start over again. That way you won't inadvertantly stall. Also,
practice at altitude what happens when you extend flaps/airbrakes
completely, to get used to the nose-down attitude, and the rapid
deceleration. Once you have become comfortable with this you can
practice, and achieve, very short landings.
Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying
Mark Stevens
does also assume you have enough energy to cope with the loss of
lift..
In article <35DA82A6...@uni-konstanz.de>,
uwe.ha...@uni-konstanz.de (Uwe Hagenauer) wrote:
> Article: 39374 of rec.aviation.soaring
> Message-ID: <35DA82A6...@uni-konstanz.de>
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:45:44 +0200
> From: Uwe Hagenauer <uwe.ha...@uni-konstanz.de>
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> Subject: Re: Mini-Nimbus experience
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Miriano Ravazzolo
>
>
> Armand A. Medeiros wrote:
>
> > I am curious as to the use on your 304. Can you go from full spoiler to
> > nill spoiler at 10 feet AGL (wind shear adjustment) and not drop like a
> > rock? Isn't that why all later generation ships went to SH type spoilers
> > and standard flaps? Are not SH type spoilers easier and more precise to
> > control without the lose-of-lift-impact problem associated with coupled
> > flap/trailing edge spoilers?
> >
> > AAM
>
> away during flare and while still being 5-10 km/h above stall speed, you'll
> start a climb. The flaps increase the angle of attack, and the spoilers
> decrease the lift coefficient of the wing and and enhance the drag
> coefficient.
>
> Ciao
> Bert Willing
My experience on those spoilers are only on the Libelle. Maybe what can
be said is that this kind of things have to be used a little bit more
"slowly" than a SH air-brake. You can actually close them everytime, even
during flare, if you consider them as a kind of "active elements" which
modify not only your drag but also your asset. If you close them
abbruptly, before starting the new (flatter) angle the nose will drop a
little to let you gain a bit of more speed, and this is not advisable too
close to the ground.
Miriano Ravazzolo
Albin O. Schreiter
Ravazzolo) wrote:
>My experience on those spoilers are only on the Libelle. Maybe what can
>be said is that this kind of things have to be used a little bit more
>"slowly" than a SH air-brake. You can actually close them everytime, even
>during flare, if you consider them as a kind of "active elements" which
>modify not only your drag but also your asset. If you close them
>abbruptly, before starting the new (flatter) angle the nose will drop a
>little to let you gain a bit of more speed, and this is not advisable too
>close to the ground.
>
>Miriano Ravazzolo
Your experience on a Libelle does not help much with the Mini-Nimbus
flap/trailing edge dive brakes. On the Mini it is just about essential
NOT to close the system slowly. The correct way is to close
flap/divebrake fast and completely, and to then start over again to
whatever setting is appropriate. This avoids the danger of stalling
inadvertently.
puma...@gmail.com
> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:31:07 +0200, (Miriano
Peter Purdie
to fit an anti-balance tab to increase elevator forces. (Mandatory for a
UK CofA).This makes it less pitch sensitive than a Standard Cirrus, and
lots of low hours pilots have flown those. I wouldn't recommend a low
hours pilot to try a VNE low pass in either (or anything else for that
matter).
For reference, I have owned 2 Minis, one bought factory new in 1977, and
the other 25 years old bought in 2002. Delightful toy, big cockpit, easy
to fly.
At 11:48 05 August 2014, puma...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:00:00 AM UTC, Albin O. Schreiter wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:31:07 +0200, (Miriano
>> Ravazzolo) wrote:
>>=20
>=20
>n=20
>=20
>> >modify not only your drag but also your asset. If you close them=20
>=20
>o=20
>> >
>> >Miriano Ravazzolo
>> flap/trailing edge dive brakes. On the Mini it is just about essential
>> NOT to close the system slowly. The correct way is to close
>> flap/divebrake fast and completely, and to then start over again to
>> whatever setting is appropriate. This avoids the danger of stalling
>> inadvertently.
>> Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying
>
>this is a fascinating discussion about the flap/spoiler combination but I
discussions
>d with" once understood?
>
Bruce Hoult
Re Libelle: the Club Libelle does in fact have similar airbrake/flap
though t's not usable as flaps without airbrakes. Opening the airbrakes
*lowered* the stall speed by 5 knots or so. Some say you can't close
them near the ground but that's of course rubbish as long as you're
safely above the clean stall speed. The thing slows down so fast in
level flight with full brakes that there's no reason *not* to carry
decent speed until the flare.
The brakes are effective enough that 120 kg me could do a near as
dammit vertical descent at 85 knots.
I did about 60 hours in that Club Libelle before my club sold her when
it got two PW5s (let's not talk about that...), but here are some
recent pics of her at her current home near Whangarei:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4014/4378553306_55d9d14139_b.jpg
https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/1010223_797680173591917_533059112_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s526x395/1503900_793022900724311_1983618323_n.jpg?oh=5aedecc689b9675b9114e4e9e7fdcc13&oe=5450B668&__gda__=1414676821_62278f17648e204ded5d92aaae6fa4ff
The first shows open brakes from above. In the second the "flap" part
of the brakes is visible below the wing.
murp...@gmail.com
There are no dates on most of these, or if there are, they're hard to find.
One of my biggest internet pet peeves is this one.
EVERY posting should have a date, INCLUDING THE YEAR so we don't look like idiots posting to messages left during the ice age.
Martin Gregorie
> I'll tell you where these 16 year old posts come from:
>
about hard to find dates.
They certainly didn't come from an NNTP server, which seldom keep
anything for more than a year or so. Most news readers also expire old
articles. I use Pan, which has a server-dependent expiry period which
defaults to three months. The news reading experience is better if you
use a news reader: they are generally faster, have a better user
interface and, last but not least, usually have a decent kill-file
capability.
The usual suspect for old junk is some web-based news archiver like
Google Groups, formerly known as Deja Vu before Google bought and
disimproved it.
> There are no dates on most of these, or if there are, they're hard to
> find.
>
really is your responsibility to check the date before posting.
> One of my biggest internet pet peeves is this one.
> EVERY posting should have a date, INCLUDING THE YEAR so we don't look
> like idiots posting to messages left during the ice age.
>
expire old articles. Without dates you can't do this and an article
without a date will, hopefully, be treated as very old and expired
immediately.
Poorly designed and written news archivers and web apps, which operate
outside the limits of the NNTP protocol may or may not insist on dated
articles and can and will do what they please with dates. Let the user
beware.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
hdman...@gmail.com
Thanks
Hans
Bob Kuykendall
Later in this thread is a rather more technical discussion about UseNet posts and dates.
Thanks, Bob K.
Han Vos
Han Vos
Michael Bamberg
Mike