Glider Winch Manufacturers or Plans to make???
Ted
plans available?? THANKS!! Ted
Marc Ramsey
> Does anyone out there in this world make glider launch winches or are there
> plans available?? THANKS!! Ted
Yes. There are two Yahoo groups that can provide you with much more
information:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchengineer/
Marc
Tony Clark
>Does anyone out there in this world make glider launch winches . . . .
Well you did say "Does anyone out there in this world make glider launch
winches . . . . " ?
Out of interest try looking at :-
http://www.skylaunchuk.com/index.htm
You sould feel at home, as the one I drive, the Skylanch 8200 is powered
by a Chevy 8.2 litre V8 (Run on LPG)
Ted
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your replies!! You guys are GREAT!!
Cheers, Ted
"Tony Clark" <tony...@vegapilot.com> wrote in message
news:6dtp22F...@mid.individual.net...
Bill Daniels
suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save $50k -
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.
If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these from US
winch buiders:
http://www.romansdesign.com/
and
http://www.hydrowinch.com
Bill Daniels
"Ted" <TBBlakeley@comcastDOTnet> wrote in message
news:qtWdnY13FZFdWOTV...@comcast.com...
Marc Ramsey
My advice is that you study what people have to say on both groups
carefully, take those with an obvious bone to pick with a grain of salt,
assess the finances and available expertise, and make the most
appropriate choice for your club or soaring operation. Also, take a
careful look at retrieve winches, they allow you to start off with a
single or double drum winch, and provide a straightforward upgrade path
to higher launch rates when justified, at only a slight cost in launch
height.
And, I've gone out of my way to spend some time sitting in, poking
around, and getting launched by updated Gehrlein, Tost, Supacat, and
Skylaunch winches. Skylaunch has a proven design, and gives you the
option of buying individual components, kits, or completely built
winches. Yes, the basic configuration of a Skylaunch is similar to a
Gehrlein (though most Gehrleins have one drum). With an
engine/transmission swap, upgraded drum, changes to the cable rollers
and guillotine, and some amount of tinkering, a Gehrlein can be made
quite usable. A Skylaunch simply gets you there quicker and in more
comfort, though of course, at higher cost.
Roman of Roman's Design is a mechanical genius, he has helped upgrade a
number of the old Gehrleins in Southern California, and his new winch is
an automated marvel which has started test launching. It costs a bit
more than a Skylaunch, and may well end up being a viable alternative.
Roman also recognizes that finances are an issue for a lot of clubs, so
he is currently designing a simpler lower cost single drum model which
may be a better fit for many.
As for Hydrowinch, well, I'd like to have an Antares, but I'll likely
never be able to afford to buy or maintain one...
Marc
Ian
> The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
> suffers from the same major shortcomings.
Could you expand on that a bit? I know a few clubs here which use 'em
and think very highly of them.
Ian
Z Goudie
>On 13 Jul, 14:33, "Bill Daniels" wrote:
>> The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches
and
>> suffers from the same major shortcomings.
>Could you expand on that a bit? I know a few clubs here which use 'em
>and think very highly of them.
Now you've done it!
Tony Clark
>The Skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US
> Gerhlein winches and suffers from the same major >shortcomings. If you
still like it, save $50k-$75k by
> spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and
> fix it up. If you'd like a modern, state of the art
> winch, take a look at these from US winch buiders:
>
>http://www.romansdesign.com/ and
>http://www.hydrowinch.com
>
>Bill Daniels
Hi Bill,
I'm not particularly promoting Skylaunch! It's just that Bill asked if
anybody had information on professionally built, and self build winches,
and we as readers and contributors to these forums, are surely doing what
he asks for if we throw him all the information and links etc. we can, so
he can study the situation for himself. I look on comments like yours as a
positive aid to Bill's information gathering, so long as they are unbiased
and accurate!
With this in mind I would be pleased if you could explain in more specific
detail about what you personally found are the "shortcomings" of the
'Skylaunch' winch - rather than just just leave it at a vague reference
to mysterious "shortcomings.
I found this staccato comment perplexing because I have been driving
winches since 1972 and the Skylaunch 8200 since 2001, launched thousands
of gliders with the Skylaunch and trained many new winch drivers. Yet,
after all these launches, I have yet to find these mysterious
"shortcomings" that you speak of!
If you have had a lot experience of driving Skylaunch winches, but have
specific problems with launching or the winch, I for one would take much
interest if you could explain them. There may be a reason for your
problems and something as simple as a different method of operation might
be all that is needed to solve them! Maybe you need a little guidance on
setting-up, driving, or maintenance, etc.
On the other hand, if you are making a statement regarding certain
"shortcomings" (that I have not personally found) without actually
having had experience of these winches, and your opinion is actually only
based on secondhand comments, it is not paticularly fair to the
manufacturer, or to Bill, who is trying to gather what accurate
information there is available.
Tony Clark
jpg...@googlemail.com
I'm getting confused about the Bills and Teds but I am anticipating an
excellent adventure!
Dan G
> The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
> suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save $50k -
> $75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.
>
> If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these from US
> winch buiders:
>
> http://www.romansdesign.com/
> andhttp://www.hydrowinch.com
>
> Bill Daniels
Some serious crack smoking been going on there :-)
Skylaunches are quite superb winches. They're very well made and give
smooth, powerful, and repeatable launches. A pleasure to fly on and
drive.
Dam
Bill Daniels
"Dan G" <dan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c5ccd36-e253-4bab...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Dam
It that's true, then so are all the 50 year old Gerhleins since they're the
same at the core except for the additional drum. You can find Gerhleins
everywhere in the US - usually rusting away in the weeds.
Bill D
Marc Ramsey
And, indeed, if you pull one out of the weeds, disassemble it, sandblast
and repaint the frame (assuming it hasn't rusted out), replace or
rebuild the engine, transmission, differential, drum, cable (synthetic
rope is much safer), seat, enclosure, wheels, tires, rollers, and
guillotine (the existing one will do a better job of cutting off
someones arm than cutting Spectra), then you have something roughly
equivalent to a single drum Skylaunch, but lacking the rather clever
mechanical throttle control system that makes them easier to drive.
Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components. Of course, this is all assuming that what is
important to you is launching gliders to a reasonable height at a
reasonable cost, rather than exploring the limits of technology...
Marc
Bill Daniels
"Marc Ramsey" <ma...@ranlogREMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:Vwwek.17872$N87....@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
That's an exageration. Most of them are in better shape than that. The
engine will probably run with fluid changes and a new battery. Old
transmissions seem to last forever. They've been put back in operation for
a couple of thousand dollars and a few weekends work
That 'clever' Skylaunch spring loaded throttle stop can be made for about
$30 worth of parts from a hardware store.
The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
that didn't work all that well in the first place.
Bill D
Uncle Fuzzy
> "Marc Ramsey" <m...@ranlogREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Vwwek.17872$N87....@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do they NOT launch gliders reasonably well? What's the ballpark cost
of a 'current technology' winch? Will it launch more gliders for less
money over a 5 year period making 75 launches per weekend?
Marc Ramsey
It's not an exaggeration in the case of the two I've pulled out of the
weeds, then decided to return to their resting places. There are a
number of Gerhleins floating around in good shape, but that is because
people have been using them and upgrading parts over time. It's not
that easy to find good ones that aren't being used at this point.
> That 'clever' Skylaunch spring loaded throttle stop can be made for about
> $30 worth of parts from a hardware store.
It's slightly more complicated than a simple spring loaded throttle
stop, as the mechanism also allows for a separate wind input, but I
agree, $30 is about right, though you're on your own when it comes to
calibration. I've yet to see such a mechanism fitted to a Gehrlein,
which is rather unfortunate, as it clearly allows greater consistency in
launches, particularly with inexperienced drivers.
> The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
> that didn't work all that well in the first place.
You know perfectly well why these winches can work better than the state
of the art from 50 years ago. A decently sized engine and functioning
transmission, with an appropriate final drive ratio. Multi-strand cable
or Spectra, so there isn't a cable break every few flights. Gliders
with CG hooks, rather than compromise hooks like most 2-33s. Properly
trained pilots and drivers, etc.
State of the art technology is great, but the cost is even higher than a
Skylaunch, the manufacturers just starting out, the field experience is
limited, and I personally would prefer to leave the beta testing to others.
Marc
Derek Copeland
they both use V8 gasoline engines with an automatic gearbox. The Skylaunch
has benefitted from 40 years of development, is well designed and properly
engineered, and is built to be heavy enough that it cannot be pulled into
the air or toppled over by heavy modern GRP two seater training gliders,
unlike the little Gerhlein.
Bill Daniels' argument is like saying that the latest Ford automobiles
are no better than a 1920's Model T because they share the same basic
components!
In Europe Skylaunch winches are considered to be state of the art, and a
well proven design. They are often bought by clubs in preference to the
stepless diesel-hydraulic and electric winches favoured by Bill. The
latter are in theory better, but are considerably more expensive and
don't work any better in practice. Economics and proven reliability do
come into the argument as to which design to choose!
The current manufacturers of glider winches are Skylaunch (UK), Tost
(Germany), MEL (Holland), Hydrostart (Holland), Herkules (Czech Republic),
Electrowinch (Germany), Egger (Germany), Integrale (Germany), Supacat (UK),
plus the two US designs described below which (as far as I am aware) are
both still under development. A quick 'google' should find you all the
relevant web sites.
Derek Copeland
At 13:33 13 July 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:
Tony Clark
> I'm getting confused about the Bills and Teds, but I am
> anticipating an excellent adventure! (Nice wisecrack jpq!)
Yes jpq! I opologise for getting my 'Teds' and 'Bills' mixed up! Ted
was of course the 'Original Post' and 'Bill' was the contributor that
I was seeking futher explanation from!
I have never met Derek Copland (previous 14th July post) but he is someone
I know of that has vast experience and is a 'legend in his own lunchtime'
in British gliding circles! I would put much faith in his observations,
which also appear to back-up my own!
Regarding the capital cost and running costs of a professionally built
winch :-
a) Skylaunch estimate that running on LPG the cost/launch using the 8.2
litre engine option is £0.10 maximum.
b) During the 6 months summer period my club operates the 'Skylaunch
8200' 7 days/week plus some evenings, and during the winter 3 days/week.
With allowances for weather I would make a rough estimate at up to 5,000
winch launches/year!
If we write off the capital cost over a period of say 10 years this works
worked out to very roughly a cost of £1.10/launch (including LPG fuel!)
and the 'Skylaunch' still has many good years remaining on a "marginal
costing costing basis" of £0.10/launch + some 'Maintenance Costs'!
Hey! I've just realised! Why has the 'Club Treasurer' been charging me
£6.00/launch! I shall ask him!
Raising the 'Capital Cost' apart! (I leave that up to the Treasurer!)
Would I really want the 'aggro' of self-building our own winch at these
cost/launch figures? That is of course a subjective decision that can only
be made by a specific individual or club! However, I know what my decision
would be!
Tony Clark (aka 'pilot extraordinaire')
PS. I still await detailed clarification regarding the Skylaunch
"shortcomings" with much anticipation!
Ian
> Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
> Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
> sourced components.
I thought Skylaunch - being sensible people - would sell neither
winches nor plans in the US. Product liability and all that.
Ian
Ian
> The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
> that didn't work all that well in the first place.
Bill,
I really think you need to explain yourself here. Skylaunch winches
have a very high reputation here, and if you are going to accuse them
of poor design you should be prepared to back up the accusations with
(a) details and (b) evidence.
Ian
jpg...@googlemail.com
The Skylaunch is indeed simple engineering - deliberately so. IMHO
the two clever things that Skylaunch did were:
firstly, to realise that the torque curve and response to load
characteristics of the GM V8 gasoline/lpg engine are more suited to
the throttle-limiter method of setting the power of the winch (for
glider type and wind component) than are the characterisitics of the
typical non-electronically controlled large diesel engine.
secondly, to work out the appropriate throttle stop settings for all
the likely gliders and wind components.
John Galloway
Marc Ramsey
They've been advertising in Soaring magazine for a year now, and in face
to face discussion indicated that they'd be happy to sell us anything
from a single component to a complete winch...
Ian
I am corrected. Thank you.
Ian
Derek Copeland
>
>I still await detailed clarification regarding the Skylaunch
>"shortcomings" with much anticipation!
>
from Bill Daniels about gear changes, torque multiplication, tension logs
and tension spikes, with dark hints that the latter are somehow dangerous,
but without any hard quantitative evidence or clarification as to why!
Derek Copeland
Don Johnstone
Glider winches should be simple, in general they are driven by simple
people. Probably the best winch I have driven or launched on is the
Munster Van Gelder. This winch provided an excellent launch, was very
simple to operate BUT it was heavy (8 tons with cable fitted) and
technically complicated to the extent that a simple failure of a small
cheap part could make it u/s. Far to complex. It could sink into a grass
airfield with ease, getting it out was a different story.
The Roman wich looks like a cut down Van Gelder and the Hydrowinch looks
even more complex.
The beauty of the Skylaunch is it's simplicity, modular easily accesible
main components, engine gearbox and drive gear. Driving a winch should be
viewed as a skilled occupation, far too often it is the lack of training
and unsuitability of winch drivers rather than the equipment itself which
causes problems. Good winch operation comes with experience operators and
no amount of technical wizardry can make up for that. Buy the skylaunch
and then get someone who knows about driving winches to train the drivers,
someone with a proven record, not someone who thinks they know.
Tony Clark
I think you're wrong about the Skylaunch gear changes Derek! Our winch
has a torque converter, but I don't think it changes gear during the
launch! Or perhaps it does, but it's just that I have never been aware of
it!
Tony Clark
Robert Gaines
It's not here. Not close to our gliderport in SE Tennessee, USA.
>
>
Derek Copeland
GM TH400 gearbox. I drive Tost winches which have been retrofitted with
these gearboxes and I agree that the gear changes are not particularly
obvious to the winch driver, or to that matter to the pilot being
launched. With a sensible axle ratio the change from first to second
happens very soon after 'all out' and the change from second to top
during the ground run. If you listen carefully from outside the winch
during a launch you can hear them as a change in the engine note.
A changing gearbox gives a more rapid ground acceleration for heavier
gliders, and allows higher gearing in top for a greater range of cable
speeds without cooking the fluid in the torque converter getting the
glider moving.
Derek Copeland
At 18:56 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:
>
Marc Ramsey
That could be fixed 8^)
Derek Copeland
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3PBcfahq4OU
N.B. The first launch is carried out by a Tost winch with a non-changing
automatic gearbox fixed in top gear. The rest are all with changing
automatic gearboxes.
Derek Copeland
Derek Copeland
reliability and ease of driving. The throttle presets take the guesswork
out of launching a glider at the end of a cable the best part of a mile
away.
I drive Tost winches with purely manual throttles and have to go on what I
can see, hear and feel. I generally open to the throttle over a count of
three to what I think is the about the correct setting for the glider type
and the conditions, and then hold it there for the first two-thirds of the
launch, after which I start to back off as the launch starts to flatten
out near the top as otherwise the glider will overspeed. If the glider
fails to rotate at the expected point, I further increase the throttle
until it does. Problem is that I can be fooled by pilots who don't fly
the expected launch profile, and can only hope to keep the launch
somewhere between a too fast and a too slow signal from the glider. I have
to tend towards the too fast side, as this is safer (less risk of the
glider stalling and spinning) and gives higher launches.
With big V8 gasoline/LPG engines, the constant throttle technique (as per
Skylaunch) does work surprisingly well and the required changes in cable
speed as the launch proceeds happen pretty automatically, as long as the
glider pilot flies the correct launch profile and makes full use of the
power provided.
If everything goes well I can launch a glider just as well and as high as
a Skylaunch or a computer controlled, diesel-hydraulic Hydrostart or
Hydrowinch, but I can't do so with the same consistency. A good launch
can be 200 to 300ft higher than a poor one.
Derek Copeland
Steve Davis
In the interest of keeping a good argument going, here is another yahoo
group with an interesting and far cheaper method of flinging a glider into
the air.
Uncle Fuzzy
wrote:
A very activity group.
LOW
Derek Copeland
site! The problem is that you need a fastish 300hp+ vehicle with an
automatic gearbox to launch heavy modern gliders, and these are getting
harder to find in these fuel frugal days. In my experience (we used to
autotow launch at my club in the past) winches give much higher launches
for a given length of run, and you don't need a hard runway which will
wear the cables out through abrasion very quickly anyway.
Derek Copeland
At 01:14 26 July 2008, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
>On Jul 25, 4:11=A0pm, Steve Davis
>wrote:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pulleylaunch/=A0
>>
>> In the interest of keeping a good argument going, here is another
yahoo
>> group with an interesting and far cheaper method of flinging a glider
>int=