sunlight readable iphone

[raxy...@gmail.com]

Does anyone have any data on whether the iPhone X OLED screen will be more sunlight readable than previous iPhones? The brightness spec looks the same (625cd/m2), but I see no data on the screen reflectance.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 2:26:27 PM UTC-7, raxy...@gmail.com wrote:
> Does anyone have any data on whether the iPhone X OLED screen will be more sunlight readable than previous iPhones? The brightness spec looks the same (625cd/m2), but I see no data on the screen reflectance.

We'll have to wait and see. The Samsung 8 which uses the same display technology and also has about the same specs, was tested by Display Mate to have a peak brightness of 1000 Nits when left on auto brightness. The OLED technology uses more power the brighter you set it, so Samsung (and probably Apple) will not allow you to manually set it that high for battery life reasons, but it may go that high when in viewed in high ambient light.

The biggest problem I have with the iPhone LCD displays isn't reflectance, it is when looking towards the sun. You iris closes down to accommodate, and the display looks dark. Looking away from the sun I find the iPhone 6 Plus to be as readable as an Oudie2 or its clones.

From http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_S8_ShootOut_01.htm#Screen_Brightness

"On the Galaxy S8 the Maximum Screen Brightness can go much higher when Automatic Brightness is turned On, so that users can’t permanently park the Manual Brightness slider to very high values, which would run down the battery quickly. High Screen Brightness is only needed for High Ambient Light, so turning Automatic Brightness On will provide better high ambient light screen visibility and also longer battery running time.

When Automatic Brightness is turned On, the Galaxy S8 produces up to a very impressive 1,020 cd/m2 (nits) in High Ambient Light, where high Brightness is really needed – which is the brightest Smartphone display that we have ever measured"

[Steve Koerner]

I have an S8+ mounted on a stalk on my panel with a charging cable and with auto brightness enabled. I have it there mostly so that I can flip on Avare when needed. It's incrementally better than previous phones but still not bright enough -- nowhere near as readable as ClearNav 2. I'm thinking about making a hood for it to see if that helps.

[Dan Marotta]

On 9/14/2017 10:46 PM, jfitch wrote:

<snip>

When Automatic Brightness is turned On, the Galaxy S8 produces up to a very impressive 1,020 cd/m2 (nits) in High Ambient Light, where high Brightness is really needed – which is the brightest Smartphone display that we have ever measured"

I guess you're talking specifically about smart phones, because my ClearNav II is (subjectively) many times brighter than my Dell Streak 5 which itself is brighter than any smart phone I've seen to date.  Admittedly I have neither seen them all nor tested any objectively.

That said, why worry about battery life when it's so simple to take a USB panel mount cable, cut off the computer end, and make it into a power jack for your phone (red and black wires connected to your DC bus)?  Or simply purchase a portable 5v lithium battery which will fit easily in the side pocket.

--
Dan, 5J

[moshe....@gmail.com]

Talking about portable 5V "power bank" battery packs, an issue I have with them is that they are too "smart". They turn themselves off when they feel not enough of a load (e.g. the smartphone decides it's fully charged at the moment). And then don't turn themselves back on even if a load is there, until you manually press the "on" button. Not good when you're busy flying and don't notice. I've also had some of those packs stop working altogether until I took them apart and unsoldered the battery from the "smarts" board to reset the controller. I've looked long and hard for any with a simple on/off slide switch, they are rare. Did find this one, it doesn't have a huge capacity (probably not even the claimed one) but is useful nonetheless, also doubles as a flashlight:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381654424368

BTW I love my Nook e-reader's reflective e-ink display, nothing is more readable in bright sunlight! (Runs TopHat which is a derivative of XCsoar.)

[jfitch]

I don't worry about battery life as I have the iPhone plugged into the ship's LFP battery. But the manufacturers of these phones do worry about it, that's why the displays aren't as bright as they could be. The dedicated panel displays tend to be brighter as small portable battery power is not a consideration. Phones and PDAs are built for a market which values battery life over sunlight readability. The downside of dedicated panel displays is it locks you into a particular manufacturer's solution which is frozen at that point on the technology curve, at a very high price. They aren't getting rich on them, there is just a cost difference between building 500 over the life of a product vs. 50,000,000 per quarter, as Apple does. They are saying the iPhone X will be in short supply because they can only produce 10,000 a DAY!

What I would like to have (and have been working on in the background) is a panel display that mirrors a smart phone. It could be very bright, and still have the advantages of using a high volume consumer device for all the connectivity/computation/memory etc. You would not be trapped into a single solution.

[Dan Marotta]

Maybe you can find the source of the ClearNav II display.  Or just the display for the Dell Streak 5...

Good luck!

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Daly]

Why not run a yotaphone? E-ink on one side...

[jfitch]

Finding the display isn't the problem, plenty of displays out there. It's getting the mirroring working. Apple's solution for this does not display in full resolution, and does not display in portrait orientation. There is no other solution but hacking the phone OS, possible perhaps but complicated. Not sure what exists in the Android world but iGlide does not run on Android anyway.

[Soartech]

> Why not run a yotaphone? E-ink on one side...

Yes, and LCD on the other. I tried to get my Nook to run TopHat and have had zero luck. It is not possible withouot taking it apart and doing some soldering.Even then you have to have a serial output GPS. Newer USB output GPS will not work. I was lucky enough to test fly a Yodaphone (not sure about the spelling) and it worked well. However last time I searched for them online they were not sold in the USA. Probably because
they are made in Russia... might include spyware at no extra charge :-)

[kinsell]

I have an Anker brand battery that doesn't need to be turned on, just
plug it in. There is a pushbutton that controls the flashlight.

Haven't used it while flying, my Nook charges from ship battery via the
IOIO-OTG adapter.

[moshe....@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 4:13:44 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> ... I tried to get my Nook to run TopHat and have had zero luck. ...

I've used a Nook for several years now. You do need to "root" the Nook (jailbreak the OS). Instructions are on the Tophat website. Once I've created the needed special memory card I've re-used it to root several Nooks easily enough. For me and for other club members. If you want I can do it for you too.

I've used two ways to get around the Nook not having a built-in GPS. One does not need soldering and uses cheap off-the-shelf components: a USB GPS "puck" and an OTG Y-cable (to which external 5V power also connects). It works reasonably well, although sometimes it froze up in mid-flight and I had to restart the Nook, which meant a split flight log. I suggested to the main developer to allow continuing the same log file after a crash and restart, and that is supposedly done now, although I havn't used that feature because I meanwhile switched to a different solution: I did solder a serial GPS to the Nook's motherboard. Not for the faint of heart... But it does work very well once done. A third way is via an "IOIO box" but that seems overkill to me.

A Yotaphone sounds neat, but it's hard to get one. Used Nooks are (still) plentiful and cheap, and I like the bigger screen. For a slightly smaller e-ink screen (good in tight cockpits) some people use a "Kobo Mini" e-reader.
http://tophatsoaring.org/Kobo.html

[Dan Daly]

An available solution is http://goflyinstruments.com/ . I have a V4. 20 hr battery, GPS, pressure sensor all in one package. Not inexpensive, but it works on a Kobo Mini. They're up to V6 now. Well thought out. I started with the Y-cable but found it messy. All in one is nice - when I fly club duals I use it with a kneeboard.

[kinsell]

On 09/15/2017 02:40 PM, moshe....@gmail.com wrote:
> A third way is via an "IOIO box" but that seems overkill to me.

Compared to buying a $1000 phone to try to get enough brightness, seems
like a terribly minimalist solution to me. I'm using IOIO-OTG and have
a secondary input wired to give a big PF display. Worked great for a
while, then TopHat dropped the capability out of current releases for
some reason. Maybe XCSoar still has it, but never liked their UI.

Reliability of the system is marginal, usually takes a couple
unplug/replug cycles of the usb to keep things running on a long flight.

-Dave

[phi...@glideomarama.com]

I've been using an Android based e-reader for a few seasons now. XCSoar runs on it nicely, standard install, nothing fancy. Just upgraded to a faster display that reduces the flashing on refresh.

Using a Boox e-reader from Onyx. 6 inch e-ink display. I got mine from Banggood.com.
Connecting to Flarm using an ioio adapter and the UART interface kit from Soartronics.

Works great and very reliable.

[Karl Kunz]

I've running the Yotaphone 2 lately and it works great. The brighter it is the better it is. The only issue is since there is no color, some of the icons are difficult to decipher. I picked mine up for $110 but they are getting harder to find now. Word is they are coming out with the Yotaphone 3 model this month with a bigger screen but since it is a new phone will go for $600.

[Tom BravoMike]

Any suggestion for a 7-8 inch HDMI display, 1000+ nits, decent resolution?

BTW, for Android devices and HDMI displays you can get an easy perfect HD mirroring through Amazon's Fire TV Stick for $39.99.

[JS]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 11:30:26 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> Any suggestion for a 7-8 inch HDMI display, 1000+ nits, decent resolution?
>

B and H Photo has very nice ones.
Jim

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1320437-REG/smallhd_mon_702_oled_702_7_oled.html

[JS]

Oops, back out from that link to the list. But that is a nice one.
Jim

[6PK]

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 2:26:27 PM UTC-7, raxy...@gmail.com wrote:

> Does anyone have any data on whether the iPhone X OLED screen will be more sunlight readable than previous iPhones? The brightness spec looks the same (625cd/m2), but I see no data on the screen reflectance.

Not to stray off the original question but I use my Android Galaxy S5 phone running Top Hat or XCSoar as a back up incase of a flight computer failure, also for local flights in the two seater club world.
The S5 is a good phone, had it for nearly three years but it is anything but sunlight readable.
I am contemplating updating it, as it is time, to perhaps to an S8 but not convinced it would be much better.
Any other suggestions in the Android world??

[jfitch]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 11:30:26 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:

Does the Fire Stick do portrait? Seems like most of the devices built for TV do not. In other words, if I have my HDMI display in portrait orientation (TV turned sideways), and my app on the phone is in portrait orientation, do I see the correct thing? What many of them do it show a portrait image sized down to fit upright on a landscape (TV) display. For almost all TV use that is what you want, but in a glider it is not.

[Tom BravoMike]

Good point. It looks like the Fire Stick only does landscape. I don't know if there is any app which would enforce a rotation during the mirroring process.

[Tom BravoMike]

So far I have been using XCSoar on Galaxy Note 4 and the sun readability was just good enough even in bright sunshine and with sun glasses on my nose. Now I have the Galaxy S8+ and the brightness is simply impressive (over 1000 nits). If only there was a 7 inch bezel-less tablet with a similar bright screen!

[jfitch]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 8:09:11 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> Good point. It looks like the Fire Stick only does landscape. I don't know if there is any app which would enforce a rotation during the mirroring process.
>
>
> > Does the Fire Stick do portrait? Seems like most of the devices built for TV do not. In other words, if I have my HDMI display in portrait orientation (TV turned sideways), and my app on the phone is in portrait orientation, do I see the correct thing? What many of them do it show a portrait image sized down to fit upright on a landscape (TV) display. For almost all TV use that is what you want, but in a glider it is not.

All it would take is to have the app (XCSoar?) lock in portrait mode and tell the interface it is in landscape. The HDMI interface and further on couldn't care, but it respects what the app says. App says it's portrait, so the interface says I'll squish you onto a landscape screen. You could probably prevail upon the XCSoar developers to do this. I use iGlide and I doubt they will add this.

There is another problem with a Fire Stick type of implementation: the encoding - IP - decoding delay is significant, enough to keep the mirrored display behind a disconcerting amount. For that reason, you really want a fast serial interface dumping the screen contents to the mirrored screen frame buffer, if the device can't have a true HDMI output.

[Ben Coleman]

I like my Note 5 - barely ever had an issue reading it and resolved with a slight move of my head. Running XCSoar.

Cheers Ben

[krasw]

All smartphones with glossy display are just useless mirrors in cockpit, no matter what the nits are. Just look at avionics industry, all displays have non-reflective matte surface, for a reason.

[Tom BravoMike]

Yesterday I experimented with the Galaxy S8Plus-Fire Stick-Samsung TV combination, and the delay was minimal and negligible, I estimate it at 0.1-0.2 seconds.

[jfitch]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 7:14:58 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> Yesterday I experimented with the Galaxy S8Plus-Fire Stick-Samsung TV combination, and the delay was minimal and negligible, I estimate it at 0.1-0.2 seconds.
> >
> > There is another problem with a Fire Stick type of implementation: the encoding - IP - decoding delay is significant, enough to keep the mirrored display behind a disconcerting amount. For that reason, you really want a fast serial interface dumping the screen contents to the mirrored screen frame buffer, if the device can't have a true HDMI output.

That's pretty good. Now you just have to have XCSoar add a little code.

[jfitch]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 5:43:50 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> All smartphones with glossy display are just useless mirrors in cockpit, no matter what the nits are. Just look at avionics industry, all displays have non-reflective matte surface, for a reason.

Re: glossy displays. It isn't that simple. My iPhone 6 plus looks quite glossy when turned off, but has no more reflection problems than the matt faced Oudie. You can add a matt overlay onto the phone, but it makes no difference (makes it worse, actually). These phones have very fancy coatings, the latest ones absorb something like 95% of the incident light. The technology in an iPhone far exceeds anything in the aircraft industry. In fact Apple buys more aluminum than the entire aircraft industry. When ramping up the iPhone 7 they were said to be shipping the equivalent weight of aluminum in a B747 every 23 hours in iPhone housings.

I have flown a number of flights with the Oudie/V2/Avier and the iPhone 6 plus side by side on the panel, both running. Most of the time the iPhone is as good or better. The only time the Oudie clearly wins is when you are pointed into the sun, your iris closes down, you are wearing dark glasses. Then the slightly brighter Oudie wins. An iPhone 6 Plus tests at around 550 nits. The Oudie is claimed to be 1000. At sun angles when reflections are a problem, they are equally a problem on both.

I'm looking forward to buying an iPhone X when they come out.

[Tom BravoMike]

There is sth else very interesting coming up ($850): DJI CrystalSky 7.85" UltraBright monitor (2000 nits) for drone enthusiast. It runs a locked version of Android, limited to the company's firmware, but who knows, some good people may be able to unlock it and install the Google Play Store. However, there seems to be a delivery issue as the model, announced and marketed now for many months, continues to be 'Coming Soon' but does not appear on the shelves.

[moshe....@gmail.com]

Sorry to hear the IOIO does not prevent USB glitches. And I thought it was the OTG Y-cable method that was to blame. But does the IOIO actually need the main device to run in OTG mode (i.e., being the USB host)?

If you like an older version of Tophat better, you can still use it. I keep the old .apk files just in case. Of course you do then give up some improvements done in the more recent versions.


On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 6:41:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:

[Dan Marotta]

I'll stack my ClearNav II display or my Dynon D10a against your iPhone
any day of the week.  Or are we only talking phone displays?

--
Dan, 5J

[kinsell]

On 09/18/2017 02:54 PM, moshe....@gmail.com wrote:
> Sorry to hear the IOIO does not prevent USB glitches. And I thought it was the OTG Y-cable method that was to blame. But does the IOIO actually need the main device to run in OTG mode (i.e., being the USB host)?

I believe the Nook does need to run as Host, but it does receive power
over the bus for charging. So it's a true OTG device.

I set up a Kobo Mini for a friend with a Y cable, AFAIK it's been solid.
I think the flakiness is either in the Nook USB chip or the driver for
it. On rare occasions, the Nook has booted in a bad state such that
nothing short of rebooting was able to clear the problem.

-Dave

[6PK]

Ditto with Nook- did not like it.
Top Hat runs solid with the Kobo Mini and I even like it better on the Kobo Glo

[Eric Greenwell]

jfitch wrote on 9/18/2017 10:17 AM:

> I'm looking forward to buying an iPhone X when they come out.
>

How about the iPhone 8? Is it any brighter than a 6 or 7?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[JS]

Has Samsung, Apple, Dell, Kobo or Vertica ever exhibited at Aero or the SSA convention? It seems a lot of effort goes into avoiding the support of manufacturers of glider instruments.
Jim

[jfitch]

The problem with the Clear Nav and Dynon displays is that they run exclusively ClearNav and Dynon software. If you are happy with that, and continue to be happy where ever they lead you at whatever price, then you a "s*****g in tall cotton" as they say down south. If you want a non-proprietary solution with the ability to pick the software you want to run and upgrade whenever you chose, then consumer electronics based hardware is the way to go. Neither is Right - just Different. The OP started the thread talking about iPhones. The UI on iPhone apps is miles and decades ahead, if you are sensitive to that sort of thing.

[jfitch]

The iPhone 8 has the same LCD display of the 7, so it will be the same brightness. The hope for the iPhone X is that it uses a Samsung OLED display, capable of much higher brightness. It remains to be seen what Apple will do, but it is a competitive market and Samsung phones with the OLED display are brighter in sunlight.

[Eric Greenwell]

JS wrote on 9/18/2017 9:02 PM:
> Has Samsung, Apple, Dell, Kobo or Vertica ever exhibited at Aero or the SSA convention? It seems a lot of effort goes into avoiding the support of manufacturers of glider instruments.

For many years, Cambridge, Winpilot, and others used consumer PDAs to run their
flight software. So, using consumer devices began with soaring instrument
companies. Note that The iPhone is the hardware used by Air Avionics - a major
soaring instrument provider - for their iGlide soaring flight software.

[6PK]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 9:02:58 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> Has Samsung, Apple, Dell, Kobo or Vertica ever exhibited at Aero or the SSA convention? It seems a lot of effort goes into avoiding the support of manufacturers of glider instruments.
> Jim

Good point Jim. Except if you happen not to care for the Oudie, ClearNav, LX or other pay for and in many cases very expensive devices...these are pretty much the other choice (and in some cases the better choice :-).

[Dan Marotta]

I doubt consumer electronics will ever be suitable as a cockpit display under a bubble canopy.  They're designed mainly for teen-aged girls who sit in McDonald's and poke at them with their thumbs all day.  Under those lighting conditions they're perfectly adequate.  And who cares about the UI?  Do you want to poke at the display during your entire flight or simply set it and forget it?

I'm far from expert in display technology, but I have a little bit of experience having tried and replaced many consumer products before settling on what I have now.  I've tried the Mio (total waste outside a darkened room), Samsung Galaxy II (wonderful, vibrant colors, but useless in sunlight), Motorola Moto-X (great phone, but useless outside), Nexus-7 (same, same), Dell Streak 5 (perfectly readable in direct sunlight but occasionally has to be shadowed with the hand).  The Streak 5 uses a TFT display which seems to be exactly what's needed for our use but is prohibitively expensive for the consumer market.  Dell quickly retired the Streak 5, probably for that reason.

If you have the knowledge and skills to roll your own, so to speak, take a look at something like THIS.

--
Dan, 5J

[jfitch]

Well I do care about the UI. Doesn't sound like you have tried any of the more modern phones we are talking about. Most of the software offerings in soaring - no matter what the platform - do about the same things in feature set. It is UI and presentation that differentiates.

[Tom BravoMike]

Same impression on my part. Dan got stuck with the Dell Streak 5 and doesn't want to hear opinions like mine, based on my experience in flight, that beginning with the Galaxy Note 4 every new edition (Note 5, Note 7, now S8, S8+ and Note 8) IS simply sun readable and getting better and better. With the split screen on S8+ I can run XCSoar and iFlyGPS or Google Maps simultaneously. What for? I like to see the geographical names of towns, rivers and lakes I am flying over, and they are not there on the generic aviation/navigation maps unless they are huge.

BTW, I wish Samsung stayed with the idea from Note 7 to have front and back light sensors. In circling, the brightness stayed the same and didn't go up/down/up/down like it does with the front sensor only. Worth keeping in mind if you ever consider importing the refurbished Note 7, supposedly being sold in Asia.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 4:29:57 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 9:19:32 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I doubt consumer electronics will ever be suitable as a cockpit
> > display under a bubble canopy.  They're designed mainly for
> > teen-aged girls who sit in McDonald's and poke at them with their
> > thumbs all day.  Under those lighting conditions they're perfectly
> > adequate.  And who cares about the UI?  Do you want to poke at the
> > display during your entire flight or simply set it and forget it?
> >

(...) Snip

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 00:29:57 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
>
> Well I do care about the UI. Doesn't sound like you have tried any of the more modern phones we are talking about. Most of the software offerings in soaring - no matter what the platform - do about the same things in feature set. It is UI and presentation that differentiates.

Screens are not getting noticeably brighter in latest phones, and reason is pretty simple, current brightness level is adequate and brighter screen requires huge amount of current and not so fashionable LCD screens. Only mass market use of sunlight readable screen might come from drone industry, but we have been waiting for mass market sunlight readable colour touchscreens for, what, 15 years now, so do not hold your breath.

[Dan Marotta]

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, I guess.  I'm so completely sold
on the XCSoar (free) and the Dell Streak 5 ($50-150 AND you can actually
read it in direct sunlight) that I kept them in my Stemme. I'm sure
you're happy with the $800 or so that you spent for iPhone and iGlide
and the $600 or so you'll spend next year when the New, Improved iPhone
X+1 comes out.

Looking back at the subject line, I guess the real question is: "Is
there a sunlight readable *iPhone*?", not "Is there a sunlight readable
*display*?".  I think the current answer to the first is, "No", and the
answer to the second is, "Yes, but not with an iPhone yet."


> <snip>

> Well I do care about the UI. Doesn't sound like you have tried any of the more modern phones we are talking about. Most of the software offerings in soaring - no matter what the platform - do about the same things in feature set. It is UI and presentation that differentiates.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Not stuck, Tom, only speaking from experience.  I will now see if I can
find someone to demonstrate one of the new Galaxies to me since I've not
seen one.  You are the first person to state unambiguously that your
Galaxy is sunlight readable.  The split screen is a wonderful capability
that's not available on the Streak.

--
Dan, 5J

[moshe....@gmail.com]

"Sunlight readable" does not mean the same brightness to different people. Different strokes for different folks indeed. Some are willing to look at a display with lower contrast, others (perhaps correlated with being older) like higher contrast. Some desire color strongly and are willing to squint for it, others give up on color in return for more contrast. I've seen the Dell Streak display that some other members of my club use, and they've seen my Nook, and we're all sticking to our choices. Nothing wrong with that.

Many web pages (and apps, and OSs) are designed these days with very low contrast choices of foreground and background colors for text and icons, I personally hate that, but apparently many, at least those who designed it, think it's cool.

[jfitch]

Phone screens are getting brighter. In the last two generations they have gone from 500 to 1000 nits. The OLED screens are quite capable of 1000 nits, they are just not driven that bright out of concerns about battery life. In yachting navigation displays, very bright, sunlight readable screens have been available for a couple of decades now.

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 6:54:47 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 9:31:43 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> The specs for the iPhone X have been publicly available for a while now. Yes it will have an OLED screen, so it does not "remain to be seen what apple will do", they have already done it and publicly announced it.

>
> > The iPhone 8 has the same LCD display of the 7, so it will be the same brightness. The hope for the iPhone X is that it uses a Samsung OLED display, capable of much higher brightness. It remains to be seen what Apple will do, but it is a competitive market and Samsung phones with the OLED display are brighter in sunlight.

As I explained before, the OLED screens are capable of that brightness, and Samsung drives them to that brightness when left in Auto mode and in bright ambient light. Will Apple do the same? that is what remains to be seen. Neither Samsung or Apple give you much information in the specs as to how they handle this. The best information is on the Display Mate website, as these are actual tests of of the shelf phones.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

I run Top Hat on a Kobo e-reader; i.e., gray scale. Very legible. As good as my old Compaq Aero but a much larger display.

I also have a Dell Streak 5 in the pocket as a backup, which I was forced to go to at Cordele this summer when the Kobo stopped getting GPS data from my PowerFLARM. I much prefer the color (Dell)...but it's not nearly as readable. It's "good enough". So if I could get a more readable color display at comparable or even moderately higher cost, I'd go with that.

I like having a completely independent backup, though (self contained battery, GPS, CPU, display), so I'll probably keep the Dell Streak in the cockpit for a long time.

Chip Bearden

[ma...@theglebehouse.net]

I am something of a collector of these things. I have an LX9000 in the panel, and fly with an Oudie IGC running standalone as an additional display. The PF feeds traffic to the LX and to a Butterfly.

When in another glider I use the Oudie IGC - fully standalone, an IGC logger, what I consider to be a great interface (if you invest the time to know it and to set it up), and with a big internal battery. I think it is the gold standard in standalone devices, and has significant advantages over the expensive dedicated devices such as LX, Zeus, Clearnav and Air Avionics.

I also own an S8 on which I have XC Soar and Skydemon - also Tophat but I prefer XC Soar. I changed from iOs to get Oudie Live and XC Soar. I carry it in the pocket of the glider but have never had to turn it on. When flying power I use Skydemon on the S8.

I also own a Kobo Glo HD with Bluefly vario/GPS bought from http://gethighstayhigh.co.uk/
running XC Soar. I don't use it. IMO the benefits of colour and a phone touchscreen make the S8 a better device for XC Soar than the bigger and superb in sunlight eink device.

All these devices are fine for sunlight readability IMO, unlike earlier generations. Early monochrome iPaqs were good (I used Winpilot) but from the time colour came in until the Oudie 2 sunlight readability was a real issue. On these devices it isn't.

[jfitch]

Just goes to show what different people prefer. I consider the Oudie/SYM UI to be awful. I tried to like it but cannot. In my opinion, XCSoar is slightly better, Winpilot was clearly superior, and iGlide is far superior. iGlide on an iPhone 6 or later (with built in barograph) makes a very good stand alone tactical flight computer. It lacks the IGC legal recorder in the Oudie IGC though.

[6PK]

I would agree with most but how is iGlide far superior? Forgive my ignorance please.....

[JS]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 2:44:06 PM UTC-7, ma...@theglebehouse.net wrote:

Fahr-Kinell, "ma"!
You win tonight's star prize... this fabulous LOUNGE SUITE!
(music, canned applause)
<zoom to attractive girl, waving arm at settee>
Jim

[jfitch]

I did say "in my opinion" and opinions may differ. It will be difficult to explain why, unless you have tried all of these offerings for yourself. I own them all, own the hardware, have the interfaces installed in the glider and on any day could run any of them. Broadly speaking, configuration, task entry, task editing, zooming, and panning are much quicker, and less verbose. I credit part of this to the hundreds of millions of dollars of development that has been sunk into general smartphone UI, with all the hooks necessary to take advantage of it available for free to the developer. Window CE has not had any development done on it for many years now (predating smartphones). XCSoar using Android in theory could take advantage but they are handicapped by needing to make the code and UI work across a very wide variety of OS and hardware, this is always a compromise. I credit the remaining to the developers who looked at the problem with a modern view, rather than one rooted in Windows 3.1/CE UI which dates from the last century. iGlide was designed from the beginning around a modern smartphone interface, while SYM and XCSoar have tried to adapt grudgingly to it. Winpilot made the jump more properly, but the iOS version has never really been finished.

Sadly, Air Avionics have done themselves a huge disservice by not providing a free demo mode app which I believe would result in much wider deployment, given that all their competition does so.

[waremark]

"Broadly speaking, configuration, task entry, task editing, zooming, and panning are much quicker, and less verbose."

I would quote those points as reasons for preferring SYM! The biggest benefit being the total flexibility on the configuration of the map pages. I find it better than XCS in all those ways except panning which is equally easy in all touchscreen software.

When I bought iglide lite I didn't like the interface and the screen wasn't bright enough. I have never tried the full version on a recent iPhone. No-one at my club uses it.

[Ian]

On 21/09/2017 07:11, jfitch wrote:

> Windows 3.1/CE UI which dates from the last century. iGlide was
> designed from the beginning around a modern smartphone interface,
> while SYM and XCSoar have tried to adapt grudgingly to it. Winpilot
> made the jump more properly, but the iOS version has never really
> been finished.

Have you tried TopHat? Basically XCSoar with a rationalised UI. I don't
know if it works on old Windows CE devices but I find it much more
intuitive on my Dell Streak than native XCSoar.

There are also versions patched for use on black and white e-Ink displays.

[6PK]

I appreciate the reply, there was no pun intended, simply was curious as the one system I have not tried is iGlide.
I happen to agree with Ian; I prefer TopHat over XCsoar, I find somewhat more user friendly. Mine runs on a Kobo Glo (grayscale), works very well... it would be revolutional if only a little color:-)

[jfitch]

I do not own a Tophat version, though I have had it demonstrated to me by someone who uses it and likes it. It did seem to improve on the XCSoar base.

Since the Lite version of iGlide does not support routes, it is impossible to compare task creation and editing in it to SYM or XCSoar. What iGlide needs to do is publish a full Pro version, enabled in demo mode only, for free. Then it could be compared to the others by anyone without risk.

Currently (for me) I rank them in usability:

iGlide
XCSoar
SYM
Winpilot iOS (crashes too often to use)

Ranked in value, its hard to overcome the fact that XCSoar is free:

XCSoar
iGlide
SYM

But the software is such a minuscule cost in soaring - compared to the rest of it - that I discount that. I spend more on oxygen each soaring season than iGlide cost.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:02:35 -0600, Dan Marotta
<dcma...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Not stuck, Tom, only speaking from experience.  I will now see if I can
>find someone to demonstrate one of the new Galaxies to me since I've not
>seen one.  You are the first person to state unambiguously that your
>Galaxy is sunlight readable.  The split screen is a wonderful capability
>that's not available on the Streak.

For me, Samsung Galaxy S4 mini, S5 and S7 are perfectly readable in
sunlight even if I'm wearing polarized sunglasses, if they are mounted
vertically (or slightly inclined towards the bottom) in the cockpit so
that they are not pointing directly into the sun.

Much better than Streak 5, Oudie 1 or 2 or dhe old Compaq devices.

[6PK]

Hmmm. I once owned a Del Streak running XCSoar.I read the overwhelming reviews on it but frankly it was a disappointment at least to me,as it was just ok.
I went back to my old Vertica/Aviar running WinPilot after that for a couple of years.
The Vertica "sort of worked"with WinPilot, IMO Jerry was close to having a great system combination but than he shortly abandoned this Windows based program in favor of his IOS. (And yes, so did Vertica2 disappeared, although there is some noise that the Vertica3 is coming)
I agree, WinPilot was a great system, far better than it's sort of poorly executed carbon copy; SYM.
Since than the only sensible system out there is XCSoar/Top Hat.
Yes, it would also be nice to have a simulator of Iglide to compare but there isn't one.
It leaves still a desirable modern platform for any of the above except for the Oudie2 which I own one and it's for sale.
Just my nickels worth.

[jfitch]

If Winpilot (the original on an Avier) was still in the running I would put it second behind iGlide. It quit working with the Butterfly (at a Butterfly firmware update) and Jerry wouldn't fix it, though the fix was trivial. Even though years old now, Winpilot is still way ahead of SYM. Winpilot's thermal assistant is still the best in the industry.

[6PK]

Is Iglide only compatible to the Butterfly vario? ( if yes, it's an unfortunate negative).

[waremark]

For me, as SYM improved over the years it overtook Winpilot even before Jerry stopped developing WP for Windows mobile.

I have always preferred it to XC Soar. XCS is amazing value, but I am mystified that some of you prefer the interface to SYM. Much less flexible display with data only in fixed position navboxes, same navbox structure on all map pages, more keystrokes to enter tasks. What is better?

But all these systems are superb, what matters most is to be very familiar with whichever you use.

PS I admit I don't use the SYM thermal assistant so I cannot compare it to others. I use the LX one, and also have the LX zoomed in showing my trail in vario colours.

[WinPilot]

We are not aware of any crashing bugs for WinPilot for iOS in the past couple of releases.
We started writing support for the LxNav’s S100 flight computer using a wireless Bluetooth connection, and the current WinPilot build on the AppStore already has flight log download and McCready setting transfer built in. It looks like the S100 transmits vario data pretty fast, so we will try to port our Widows CE ClimbMaximizer to the iOS as well.
We aren’t aware of Butterfly vario problem. Users of older flight computers (like CAI 302) can use Butterfly’s WiFi stick to connect to WP.
Winpilot for iOS is free to download and free to test in GPS mode for 30 days, after that the subscription is $4.95/month. For more info visit our Facebook page.
Hopefully this info is helpful to someone,
Jerry / Winpilot.com

[Dan Marotta]

While the locations of the nav boxes are the same between pages, you can
configure the nav boxes to display different data on each page. You can
also configure XCSoar to automatically switch between climb, cruise, and
final glide pages.  Maybe more that I'm unaware of.

--
Dan, 5J

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

>XCS is amazing value, but I am mystified that some of you prefer the interface to SYM. Much less flexible display with data only in fixed position navboxes, same navbox structure on all map pages, more keystrokes to enter tasks. What is better?

I've never used XCS but TopHat allows me to set up different pages with different nav boxes. Don't think I can change the basic number and position for a page but I can display different data. TopHat isn't perfect--I've submitted a list of bug fixes and wish list items--but I've been using it for the season with no backup (I left GNII in the cockpit last year). Some years ago I purchased a used HP handheld and set up SYM to basically emulate GNII plus added data. Granted, I never flew with it. But I was put off by the necessity to "learn" so much before it was usable. TopHat requires some of that, too, but then so does (to an even greater degree) my new ClearNav vario. Nothing is as intuitive as my old Cambridge LNAV and GNII: hop into the cockpit every spring after a 6 month layoff and back in business in a few minutes.

> But all these systems are superb, what matters most is to be very familiar with whichever you use.

Yes, yes, yes! Hopefully that familiarity is easily achieved and persists indefinitely. See my comments above.

Chip Bearden

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 1:06:53 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
[snip]

> Even though years old now, Winpilot is still way ahead of SYM.

Wow you do comedy as well. I'll respond in person when we are both holding beers. :-)

[jfitch]

I'll have to give WinPilot iOS another try. I haven't looked at it this season and most of last so hopefully it is more finished. The problem with the Butterfly was (is) on the old Winpilot Avier port, not on the iOS version. Butterfly changed the format of their LX serial stream slightly, which caused Winpilot to switch to CAI mode, then fail immediately. If you port the WinCE climb maximizer (still the best in the business) to iOS, will it be able to use Butterfly data via the wifi connection?

I'd also like an alternative source of info beyond Facebook. Some of us don't participate there, and without an account you can't see most things.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 2:09:39 PM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> Is Iglide only compatible to the Butterfly vario? ( if yes, it's an unfortunate negative).

iGlide can be connected to anything producing an LX style data stream using their WiFi connection interface.

[jfitch]

There really isn't anything wrong with SYM that a complete and total re-write of the UI wouldn't fix. :-) But if I have to deal with it as it is, you buy the beer.

[krasw]

What is the problem with SYM UI? It is far more easier to use, and configurable, than XCSoar. Not to mention glide computers which have no touchscreens at all. The UI is designed to be used in cockpit enviroment, with gloves on. In that enviroment some fancy Android or IPhone gestures would make me throw it out of the window in 15 seconds. You cannot even grab a modern phone without accidentally starting some app or pressing buttons on the edge :)

[waremark]

"While the locations of the nav boxes are the same between pages, you can
configure the nav boxes to display different data on each page. You can
also configure XCSoar to automatically switch between climb, cruise, and
final glide pages. "

Yes. I prefer to have the same info in the same place on each page. So I want a normal map with less info, and another with additional info. Possible in SYM, not in XCS. I don't want it changing the position of info automatically and have that switched off in XCS. My brain must work differently from the XCS devs. But from teaching other club members how to use these things which I do often I know I am much better at coping with them than most.

[jfitch]

If you liked the Windows 3.1 UI, you'll probably love SYM. UI is in some ways like art, judged by the beholder. But most of the world has moved on from tiny little buttons illogically arranged, very modal behavior, etc., typical of PDA apps from 20 years past. SYM is supplied with a 113 page manual. That pretty much says it all right there. I'm not saying XCSoar is a lot better, it grows from the same roots. The XCSoar manual is 180 pages. But with XCSoar at least I didn't pay for the pain (yearly, for SYM, now). In contrast anyone familiar with modern smartphone apps could pick up iGlide on an iPhone and within 3 or 4 minutes access 90% of its functionality without a manual at all. There are something like a billion smartphones sold each year, Apple alone sold 210 million last year. Most people have learned to operate them.

[WinPilot]

>>> If you port the WinCE climb maximizer (still the best in the business) to iOS, will it be able to use Butterfly data via the wifi connection?

Yes, the WiFi connection between Butterfly and WP iOS should already be working now, and should also be able to power the Climb Maximizer when its done.
Bluetooth is more difficult on the iPhone, but people are starting to figure it out as well, like LxNav in their S100 vario which connects to WP/iOS ok.
We would be happy to work with you on implementing more stuff.
J.

[Darryl Ramm]

Oh pluezze. Yes OK some of the UI digs are deserved but the documentation one is not. Much of this software needs better and more documentation not less.

Your pretty iPhone app intended for complex use, like a flight computer, should come with extensive good documentation. Snd yes while good does not mean long, there is so much to cover in these apps that I don't see any how you don't end up with hundreds of pages of documentation.

Foreflight as an example, runs on iOS, has a pretty UI and has a really well written 300+ pages of documentation.

[jfitch]

"Better documentation not less" is the problem. More is not necessarily better. Most phone apps (even very complex ones) are considered self documenting. SYM and XCSoar are actually not all that complex, but made to be, due to the interface. The iGlide manual is 17 pages including the title page.

[waremark]

Is there anything online which shows the strengths of iGlide? Perhaps YT video showing task entry for different types of tasks with different rules?

[jfitch]

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 4:26:56 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
> Is there anything online which shows the strengths of iGlide? Perhaps YT video showing task entry for different types of tasks with different rules?

Unfortunately no YT videos of much use. I've threatened to make some, perhaps I will this winter. The real solution is for them to publish a free demo version, like everyone else does.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 2:47:23 PM UTC-7, WinPilot wrote:

I downloaded and tried Winpilot iOS (now called Winpilot Live!) for a little while. I could not make it crash immediately, which is a good sign. How do I get the 30 day trial in GPS mode? The only options offered in app start the fee based subscription, and the moment you click on GPS mode you are asked to pay. Also, how do I provide feedback and bug reports? I do not (and will not) have a Facebook account.

[6PK]

"do not (and will not) have a Facebook account. "

I have one, (actually two, and I'm not sure how, probably the result of my wife's inpatient urging), and I'm ready to delete both.
Great mines think alike!

[Dan Marotta]

Good luck deleting a facebook account...

--
Dan, 5J

[WinPilot]

AppStore does ask for payment info, but it doesn’t charge your card until second month of your subscription, so that you have a chance to cancel it within the first month at no charge if you want. If you don’t like this, you can send us an email to winpilot.com with your WP account, and we can enable gps mode remotely. The next drop of WP Live will add support for iPhone X.

[krasw]

On Friday, 22 September 2017 19:03:58 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
> If you liked the Windows 3.1 UI, you'll probably love SYM. UI is in some ways like art, judged by the beholder. But most of the world has moved on from tiny little buttons illogically arranged, very modal behavior, etc., typical of PDA apps from 20 years past. SYM is supplied with a 113 page manual. That pretty much says it all right there. I'm not saying XCSoar is a lot better, it grows from the same roots. The XCSoar manual is 180 pages. But with XCSoar at least I didn't pay for the pain (yearly, for SYM, now). In contrast anyone familiar with modern smartphone apps could pick up iGlide on an iPhone and within 3 or 4 minutes access 90% of its functionality without a manual at all. There are something like a billion smartphones sold each year, Apple alone sold 210 million last year. Most people have learned to operate them.

I do not recognize SYM from this description. Tiny buttons, too long manual, modal wtf, annual license? We are talking about highly complex problems (AAT optimization etc.) that need complex software. You read manual, learn program and that's it, I do not have to read manual before every flight. Talking about iGlide is useless, you cannot buy a device that runs it and is adequately readable in cockpit. There is no iGlide option for glider use.

[JS]

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:07:29 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
Talking about iGlide is useless, you cannot buy a device that runs it and is adequately readable in cockpit. There is no iGlide option for glider use.

Krasw: What about the Air-Avionics Display M and Display L? Their displays are extremely good.
Purpose-built displays beat the improvised hanging-off-the-panel things any day.
Jim

[Richard Pfiffner]

I have the Display M and Display L in stock.

http://www.craggyaero.com/butterfly.htm


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[jfitch]

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:07:29 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

I take it then, that you have flown at least 10 cross country flights using iGlide and found it wanting?

I have flown at least that many with all of the software packages I have described. I find iGlide to be "adequately readable" in the cockpit. It is as readable in most situations as the Oudie 2. I know because I have flown a number of flights with both, mounted side-by-side. Have you?

[krasw]

On Sunday, 24 September 2017 18:04:11 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
> >
> > I do not recognize SYM from this description. Tiny buttons, too long manual, modal wtf, annual license? We are talking about highly complex problems (AAT optimization etc.) that need complex software. You read manual, learn program and that's it, I do not have to read manual before every flight. Talking about iGlide is useless, you cannot buy a device that runs it and is adequately readable in cockpit. There is no iGlide option for glider use.
>
> I take it then, that you have flown at least 10 cross country flights using iGlide and found it wanting?
>
> I have flown at least that many with all of the software packages I have described. I find iGlide to be "adequately readable" in the cockpit. It is as readable in most situations as the Oudie 2. I know because I have flown a number of flights with both, mounted side-by-side. Have you?

I dont do apple even if forced, so no would be the answer. But apple uses same display tech as everyone else, and you only need to take the Oudie2/IGC with any other high-end smartphone and walk out to direct sunlight to make my point. If holding a mirror that has extremely dark screen does not disturb you at all, congrats, you can fly with any device.

I did not know that Air Display M/L runs iGlide, they do not state that anywhere in documentation. Most of the panel mounted computers have decent or even good (matte) screens, but AFAIK Air is the only one with touchscreen. Touchscreen robs some of the screen brightness so it is not used much, too bad. I do not have experience with L/M, and what is the maturity of their software.

[Dan Marotta]

Slightly off topic (what else is new), but ClearNav specifically stated
that they rejected touch screens because of the difficulty of touching a
moving spot in turbulent air.  I've noticed that quite often using my
actually sunlight readable mini tablet running a different program... 
Using a stick mounted or hand held controller makes the problem of
operating the application trivial (after you've learned how to use the
software).

--
Dan, 5J

[jfitch]

Modern touchscreens do not affect screen brightness. Older/cheaper resistive technology used in PDAs such as the Oudie 2 had a separate overlay for the touchscreen with an air gap. All modern smartphones have in-panel capacitive touch sensors, it is built into the display glass as an integral part. I do not know what Air uses on their L display (the M is not touch sensitive). A touch screen does not work as well with an in-panel display in my opinion, because touch accuracy is required at arm's length. If the display is mounted on a stalk or RAM type mount, the display can be grasped by the thumb and 4th & 5th finger, and accurate touches (including multitouches) used even in rough air because your hand is anchored to the display.

[Richard Pfiffner]

The Display L is absolutely excellent in the SUN quite unlike any phones. It is as good a my Ultimate and Ultimate Le that is controlled by a ball track mouse.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Papa3]

I was there at the very beginning when the ClearNav idea began to gel. On a particular flight, one (or both - I can't remember) of us were crossing the Susquehanna river on a ridge mission trying to punch the next turnpoints using our Compaq Aeros running Glide Navigator. Mine suddenly froze up after I incorrectly punched a menu item instead of the waypoint. That same day I believe Kellerman threatened to toss his Compaq out the apple core window for a similar reason.

So yes, usability in rough air, especially mountain/ridge environments led to the strong preference for a remote control rather than touch screen.

[Eric Greenwell]

krasw wrote on 9/25/2017 12:00 AM:
> But apple uses same display tech as everyone else, and you only need to take the Oudie2/IGC with any other high-end smartphone and walk out to direct sunlight to make my point.

Actually, it doesn't make your point. When I take my iPhone 6 running iGlide
outside, it looks good. When I use it in my glider (two seasons now), it looks
good. My other glider has a CN 1, which was originally in the glider where I now
use iGlide/iPhone, and it looks good, too.

Why are you so reluctant to believe people using iPhones can read them
satisfactorily in the cockpit?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[krasw]

Because the displays suck so massively. But let's not waste any more breath, obviously there are pilots who don't like glossy smartphone displays in cockpit, and those who don't mind that at all. Out of my gliding friends 99% falls into first category. Testing your preferences is one of simplest things, just download app and use it in sunlight, there is really little to discuss about this.

[jfitch]

Trying it is a good suggestion - however try it with one of the latest phones, not your old Motorola flip phone. Display brightness has nearly doubled in the latest generation over the previous. The Galaxy Note8 was independently tested at over 1200 nits - that is as bright or brighter than dedicated nav displays. We are waiting to see if Apple will do the same things with the same display technology.

[Soartech]

Just read today that the iPhone 10 will use OLED displays purchased from Samsung. Therefore don't expect miracles. They won't be any better than Samsung.

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
> Just read today that the iPhone 10 will use OLED displays purchased from Samsung. Therefore don't expect miracles. They won't be any better than Samsung.

True - but Samsung OLED phones are capable of 1000 - 1200 nits, nearly double the peak brightness of the LCD based iPhone 6 and 7. Which some of us were able to read without a lot of issues. These displays can be driven quite bright, the OS decides how bright. Samsung made the choice to limit the manually controlled brightness to about 650 nits, to maintain battery life. However if you put the phone in the Auto brightness mode, it will peak the brightness to over 1000 nits in high ambient light (the Apple LCD phones have this behavior too, but are limited by the backlight). Some people may be mistakenly thinking they want the brightness set on manual at maximum - this may not result in the highest brightness, depending on the phone. By not allowing you to park the brightness at the true maximum, the manufacturers can turn it down when you walk into a building, and lower the incidence of battery life complaints.

[jfitch]

The first reviews are starting to be posted about the iPhone X and sunlight readability. The results look quite hopeful. One reviewer says, "view-ability is insane in the sun — much, much better than the iPhone 8 LCD" and the iPhone 8 was already decent. Another measured the brightness compared with a Samsung Note 8 (supposed to be the king of brightness) and concluded the X was 40% brighter than the 8. It is a tricky subject when talking about OLED displays, because unlike an LCD each pixel can be driven to a different level. How you measure it can be deceiving. These same reviewers also found it to be subjectively better: "To get a better read on each phone, I enlisted the help of a few of my colleagues. The first thing they all pointed out was just how bright the iPhone X’s 5.8-inch display gets in comparison to its Android-powered rivals." The rivals being the Note 8 and Pixel2 XL.

Some have claimed that Apple is buying Samsung floor sweeping displays or some such. Now that more information has come out, we know that the X display was specifically designed for Apple to Apple's specs, and is driven by an Apple designed driver. It is not the same as Samsung's current or past phones. In fact someone has plausibly calculated that Samsung will make more - far more - selling OLED displays to Apple than they will make on their entire cell phone business.