Bank angle in pattern 30 or 45
Anthony
bank angle is in turning to base and final. Several say that you
should not bank more than 30 degrees. The other group says 45 degrees
is the safest because you can not stall with a bank of 45 degrees.
Does anyone know of recommended standards for safety in the pattern
Thanks,
Anthony.
John Giddy
I have recently done a test in our Hornet, in which I set up
a steady turn at 60 deg bank angle (+2g), and then brought
the nose slowly higher so the speed dropped off. It stalled
in a rather ungainly way at about 60 kt. My partner in this
aircraft also did the test and got a lower speed, since he
is rather lighter than me.
In both cases, the stall speed was almost exactly 1.414
times the straight ahead slow stall speed, as the theory
would predict.
We did this test prior to fitting turbulator tapes. The
same test after fitting the tapes gave the same stall speed,
but a much more definite drop of the inside wing, as would
be expected for a "classic" stall in a turn. In other words,
the tapes appeared to "clean up" the performance of the
wing. (This Hornet has winglets fitted. These tests might
not give the same results on one with unmodifed wings)
I think the positive bank angle on base to final is more to
be sure you haven't let the speed drop too much, and are
trying to "rudder the plane around" in a very flat, slow
turn, which is perfect for initiating a spin.
Cheers, John G.
Anthony <jones...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e781bd13.01101...@posting.google.com...
Fred Blair
decent. Go back to your basic Soaring Flight Manual by SSA and look at that
diagram. Also as stated below, the 45 deg gets you around the turn and you
have less of a reason to try and rudder it around in the turn. The slow
"Flat" turn leads to more ruddering and the stall/spin.
Fred
"John Giddy" <jgi...@melbpc.org.au> wrote in message
news:9q35qb$dn1$1...@possum.melbpc.org.au...
Burt Compton
Your instructors are teaching by rote. Not ideal. Consider asking your CFIG to
explain the "why". If he/she cannot clearly explain "why", refer to Tom
Knauff's book "Glider Basics" or Derek Piggott's book "Beginning Gliding" - see
the chapters on Landing/Circuit Planning. While you're at it - read all the
chapters - these authors/teachers know how to explain flying gliders, and they
are much more eloquent and accurate than any advice you will find on this
newsgroup.
That said, here's my two cents: Either bank angle will work - use what you
need to make it to the landing zone. Here is my point: understand that
skidding turns can lead to spins and slipping turns create more drag than you
may need.
Note that I did not simply say: "keep the yaw string straight". That
statement is a quick and easy answer, but does not tell you "why". Remember
the yaw string won't work in rain, or if caught in the canopy gap, or has
simply detached during flight.
Ask your CFIG hard questions. It is your money and your life and your right to
know "why". You are the one spending the time and money to learn the
challenging and rewarding skills required to fly. You should demand quality
instruction and please don't be in a hurry to solo or add that glider rating.
Develop the depth of knowledge needed to become competent and safe. If he/she
cannot explain the "why", read the books I suggested. Read "Stick & Rudder" by
Langewiesche as well. You must know the "why" behind the rules and "standard
procedures".
Please take this advice kindly as many CFI's and students try to be on a fast
track to solo or a rating, and shortcuts and old adages seem to speed the rote
learning, but not the understanding. Acquiring knowledge of "why", along with
flying skills and judgment takes time, usually more time than the minimum
requirements stated in the FAR's. Learning is a never-ending process - I bet I
learn something from the other responses to your inquiry to this newsgroup.
Know that before I responded to your very valid question, I picked up the
books I mentioned and re-read the chapters before offering this advice . . .
the answers are there - go get 'em!
LEARN, then fly safe and have fun.
Burt Compton
Miami Gliders
www.flygliders.com
Johan van Dijk
words (English is not my natural language).
I don't like instructors who don't explain why. In a turn with 30
degrees the speed of the inner and outer wing shall differ more, than in
a 45 degrees turn. An 45 degrees turn forces you to use more aileron.
Often, when pilot's are very low (or in stress by .....), they have a
fear for steeper turns (more than 20 to 30 degrees). At that moment they
make their turn with a great deal of rudder and almost no aileron. Then
the inner wing stalls and the outer wing is still generating lift, the
glider flips over to an inverted position and shall continue with
somekind of a spin. The pilot doesn't realize (because his speed was
above stalling speed) he is stalling and tries to pull up his nose but
continues with a spin. This very scary, because on the pattern there in
no space (400 to 500ft) for such manoeuvre and this (most likely) ends
up in a fatal accident.
Since I started gliding (may 1975, instructor since 1990) these kinds of
accidents have happened many times and most pilots (2/3 of them) are not
with us anymore. In the Netherlands (Holland), exercising this
manoeuvre (asymmetrical stalling at altitude) is an obligation for the
gilder pilots lincense. Since this is the usual practice these accidents
became a rarity.
Johan
airgonzo
Brent Sullivan "PQ"
altitude, setting up close to or far from the filed, etc., in order to put
the ship down onthe spot you decide to put it on.
As to bank angle, it should be coordinated w/rudder. There's no answer to
"how much bank" w/out knowing how much rudder you're using.
Sorry, no simple answers. Fly often. Read. Listen to everyone's opinions
and ask questions to understand why their opinions differ--just as you're
doing here.
Welcome to the sport!
Brent
"Anthony" <jones...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e781bd13.01101...@posting.google.com...
Jim Husain
1) 45 degree turn loses the least amount of altitude in a turn, i.e. most
efficient turn.
2) In a high bank, it takes almost full back stick to induce a stall. Given
that, it is very difficult to get into a stall/spin scenario unless you really
really really screw up. If thats the case, play golf or go bowling.
Jim
N483SZ
gapagod...@aol.com
Duane Eisenbeiss
Many pilots agree that the steeper 45 deg bank turn is safer in the pattern.
No one has discussed what may be the primary reasons for the steeper bank
angle.
First, in a steeper turn it is much harder to stall the sailplane. (Lots of
back pressure required.)
Second, if the sailplane is stalled in a shallow bank with excessive bottom
rudder or top aileron, the sailplane will spin rather easily. If the
sailplane is stalled in a steep bank, the sailplane will probably just go
into a spiral dive. This is very easy to recover from. And even it the
pilot lands off the airport, at least it is not straight down, nose first.
Many power pilots are trained to use no more that 30 deg bank. Most (all?)
airlines use a 30 deg bank limit. But then, these aircraft have an engine
for rapid stall recovery. The sailplane pilot can use only altitude for
stall recovery, and may not have enough.
Duane
EColeson
jones...@hotmail.com (Anthony) writes:
>I have had several instructors with different opnions on what a safe
>bank angle is in turning to base and final. Several say that you
>should not bank more than 30 degrees. The other group says 45 degrees
>is the safest because you can not stall with a bank of 45 degrees.
The premise is two-fold: Firstly, that under-banked turns tend to fall short
on rate to complete the turn in line with the runway, and that the natural
tendency of pilots inclined to under-bank turns is to improve rate to whatever
degree may be necessary by adding rudder. Skid, stall, spin. Secondly, that
the common error in more steeply banked turns is to let the nose get low (thus
increasing speed); that elevator authority required to induce a stall angle of
attack is more limited and requires greater stick displacement and force; that
the greater rate of turn eliminates the need to add rudder to complete the turn
in line with the runway; and that the combination of control abuses requred to
skid, stall, and spin is therefore far less likely. This is all theoretically
elegant, but still so much bullshit.
Firstly, the entire argument is predicated on pilot error and I believe it more
productive to teach control and judgement than to take the position that all of
my students will die from stall-spin accidents in the pattern if they turn at
less than 45 degrees of bank, because they can't actually be taught to fly.
Secondly, the presumption that the aircraft "won't stall" or even that it's
less likely to is nothing short of dangerous. Thirdly, wind and traffic
conditions may preclude constant-rate turns at ANY angle of bank from being
appropriate.
I want my students turning at thirty degrees or more unless there's overriding
reason not to for four very simple reasons: (1) The balance in the "energy
bank" is much easier to see when flying straight than when turning, and I want
them to assess that balance on the base leg. (2) They'll consume less time and
airspace during the turn, and that simplifies both external vigilance for
traffic and the problem of situational awareness. (3) The pattern can become
excessively LARGE when the turns are made at shallower angles. (4) I don't
ever want them to think that the pattern is "fixed in cement" and not subject
to whatever modification may be required to arrive safely on the ground.
Anybody have a problem with that?
Cheers,
Eric
Eric Greenwell
says...
> Why can't you stall at 45 degrees ?
> I have recently done a test in our Hornet, in which I set up
> a steady turn at 60 deg bank angle (+2g), and then brought
> the nose slowly higher so the speed dropped off. It stalled
> in a rather ungainly way at about 60 kt. My partner in this
> aircraft also did the test and got a lower speed, since he
> is rather lighter than me.
> In both cases, the stall speed was almost exactly 1.414
> times the straight ahead slow stall speed, as the theory
> would predict.
Where is your CG? I've never been able to stall any of my gliders at
45+ degrees, but they've generally been at about 70% of the allowable
CG range.
Have you verified proper elevator deflection for your Hornet?
--
Remove REMOVE from my e-mail address to reply
Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)
Eric Greenwell
fbco...@aol.com says...
> Note that I did not simply say: "keep the yaw string straight". That
> statement is a quick and easy answer, but does not tell you "why". Remember
> the yaw string won't work in rain, or if caught in the canopy gap, or has
> simply detached during flight.
And, of course, you can stall and spin in a turn, while diligently
keeping the yaw string straight. Just keep pulling back on the stick.
This is most easily done in a shallower bank, like 20 degrees or less.
Whack-A-Loon, Ink.
Eric Greenwell <REMOVEeg...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:Ltqx7.976$Uc2.16...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <20011011082304...@mb-fw.aol.com>,
> fbco...@aol.com says...
>
> > Note that I did not simply say: "keep the yaw string straight". That
> > statement is a quick and easy answer, but does not tell you "why".
Remember
> > the yaw string won't work in rain, or if caught in the canopy gap, or
has
> > simply detached during flight.
>
> And, of course, you can stall and spin in a turn, while diligently
> keeping the yaw string straight. Just keep pulling back on the stick.
> This is most easily done in a shallower bank, like 20 degrees or less.
> --
Richard
John Morgan
"Duane Eisenbeiss" <eisen...@home.com> wrote in message news:Jepx7.54917
>
> Many power pilots are trained to use no more that 30 deg bank. Most
(all?)
> airlines use a 30 deg bank limit. But then, these aircraft have an engine
> for rapid stall recovery. The sailplane pilot can use only altitude for
> stall recovery, and may not have enough.
>
> Duane
>
When I got my power rating, the instructor wanted 30 degree banks in the
pattern. The reason given made sense . . . better visibility and thus
safety. In high wing aircraft, like Cessna's, the steeper the bank, the more
the inside wing blocks the view of where you are going. Not so much of a
problem in low wing aircraft or gliders with the cockpit in ahead of the
wing.
bumper
Eric Greenwell
\"" <brent_s...@REMOVETOREPLYbmc.com> says...
> Forget about a "pattern". Think about what it will take in terms of speed,
> altitude, setting up close to or far from the filed, etc., in order to put
> the ship down onthe spot you decide to put it on.
I suggest you don't forget about the pattern, especially if you are
landing at an airport I might be using. It has at least these
purposes:
1) to assist you obtaining the speed, altitude, and distance from the
landing area, etc., in order to put the ship down on the spot you
decide to put it on.
2) to aid your observation of the landing zone
3) to merge in a predictable way with the other aircraft using the
airport
The pattern is not a goal, but a tool to used in your quest for safe
flying.
Robert Ehrlich
>
> In article <e781bd13.01101...@posting.google.com>,
> jones...@hotmail.com (Anthony) writes:
>
> >I have had several instructors with different opnions on what a safe
> >bank angle is in turning to base and final. Several say that you
> >is the safest because you can not stall with a bank of 45 degrees.
>
I was taught to use ~ 30 degrees bank angle in this case and I think this
is the way everybody is taught in France. No reason for this was given, but
I can find some reasons by myself: speed control is easier at low bank angles,
and at high bank angle stall speed is increased (~ +20% at 45 degrees), so the
standard margin of 30% above stall speed is decreased. Of course instructors
insisted on keeping proper speed and symetry: "First look around for traffic
and at 90 degrees in the direction of your future course, then back to your
nose that you have to keep at the right distance under the horizon, and to the
yaw string, that you have to keep centered".
Vaughn Simon
there is no instrument in the average glider to measure bank angle, and the
average student (and perhaps others) cannot produce an accurate bank angle.
In my experience, they tend to over-estimate their bank angle. Also, no one
has yet pointed out that we should not allow students to crowd the runway on
downwind so they will be less likely to attempt to rudder the glider around
to line up with the runway after overshooting the turn.
Vaughn
"Anthony" <jones...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e781bd13.01101...@posting.google.com...
Anthony
Eric,
I can understand everything but "energy bank" would you elaborate.
>(1) The balance in the "energy bank" is much easier to see when flying
>straight than when turning, and I want them to assess that balance on the base
>leg.
Thanks,
Anthony.
EColeson
>I can understand everything but "energy bank" would you elaborate.
>
>>(1) The balance in the "energy bank" is much easier to see when flying
>>straight than when turning, and I want them to assess that balance on the
>base
>>leg.
Anthony,
It's just an analogy I sometimes use with students to convey the concepts of
potential engergy (the combination of speed and altitude that determines the
range of real estate on which it's possible to come to a stop) and kinetic
engery (the combination of mass and velocity that determines the impression we
make on any real estate or obstacles in our path). Every landing is an
exercise in energy management, but I've had a lot of students who found money
management less intimidating than physics (go figure!).
The trick in either case, of course, is to dissipate the "balance" to zero in
controlled expenditures that bring us to a complete stop in the exact manner
and location of our choosing. As you can imagine, I usually have to spoon feed
them some physics before we get into the concept of overshoots. It's hard even
for me to imagine having more money than I can possibly spend.
Cheers,
Eric
Doug Easton
instruments are mounted with 4 screws. Just put the line between the top
left (or right) and bottom right (or left) screw parallel with the horizon
and you have 45deg turn.
Doug
"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimo...@att.net> wrote in message
news:%%Mx7.45452$WW.28...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jasper Grannetia
which you fly it, but perhaps more so by the speed at which you fly it
combined with factors like the bank angle.
Easy turns at speeds sufficiently higher than stall speeds are what you want
to fly in the pattern, I suppose.
CU
Jasper,
"Anthony" <jones...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e781bd13.01101...@posting.google.com...
Armand A. Medeiros
If you maintain speed, it doesn't matter what reasonable bank angle you use.
I kinda fly what is necessary...big pattern, gentle 30 degree turns...close
in, 35 to 45 degree bank turns. It's the old TLAR thing again... And why
hasn't anyone mentioned the rate? You can roll to 45 degrees in 1 second or
take all day. I tend to turn in a brisk fashion...not full control throws,
but not to leisurely either...maybe 1/2 to 2/3rds max rate...depends...
Armand
"Jasper Grannetia" <remove_no_...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:9q97rc$23p$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...
Eric Greenwell
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, flybu...@worldnet.att.net says...
> When I got my power rating, the instructor wanted 30 degree banks in the
> pattern. The reason given made sense . . . better visibility and thus
> safety. In high wing aircraft, like Cessna's, the steeper the bank, the more
> the inside wing blocks the view of where you are going. Not so much of a
> problem in low wing aircraft or gliders with the cockpit in ahead of the
> wing.
John, my e-mail to you bounces back. Is there a problem with
flybu...@worldnet.att.net?
John Giddy
limit (weight limit 104 kg).
However, my partner in this glider is considerably lighter
(77 kg compared with 96kg)
and he also had no trouble in reducing the speed in a 60 deg
bank to the stall point.
He has had much more experience in flying than I have, as he
started in the early 1960s, whereas I started in 1994.
He is also a trained aeronautical engineer.
The elevator deflection is within manufacturer's limits.
Cheers, John G.
Eric Greenwell <REMOVEeg...@prodigy.net> wrote in
message
news:ztqx7.975$vf2.16...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Anthony
> What ever happened to the old 1.5 x stall + 1/2 wind thing?
> If you maintain speed, it doesn't matter what reasonable bank angle you use.
> I kinda fly what is necessary...big pattern, gentle 30 degree turns...close
> in, 35 to 45 degree bank turns. It's the old TLAR thing again... And why
> hasn't anyone mentioned the rate? You can roll to 45 degrees in 1 second or
> take all day. I tend to turn in a brisk fashion...not full control throws,
> but not to leisurely either...maybe 1/2 to 2/3rds max rate...depends...
>
> Armand
>
>
What is TLAR and does the roll rate just affect the shape of the turn.
In general is a brisk roll rate recommended in the pattern?
Anthony.
Whack-A-Loon, Ink.
>
> What is TLAR and does the roll rate just affect the shape of the turn.
> In general is a brisk roll rate recommended in the pattern?
>
Using a fairly brisk rate of turn means you can start the turn a little bit
later than if you ease into it. In contrast to Armand, I ease into about a
30 - 35 degree bank, and then adjust the angle if needed. ("IF". HA!!!)
Usually steepening it up.
Richard
Armand A. Medeiros
However, I find that I like to "square" the pattern in not to leisurely a
way, especially in crosswind or high wind situations. In fact, I think it is
"my" interpretation of brisk...maybe to someone else, it would be
gentle...not sure. In any case, I like to get the outboard wing back down
ASAP to observe any traffic I may have missed previously.
The sooner in, the sooner out and the sooner you get feedback.
Armand
"Whack-A-Loon, Ink." <nowhere@noplace> wrote in message
news:tssadqj...@corp.supernews.com...
Whack-A-Loon, Ink.
> I am not sure where or when (or if!) my flying style matured...
>
> However, I find that I like to "square" the pattern in not to leisurely a
> way, especially in crosswind or high wind situations. In fact, I think it
is
> "my" interpretation of brisk...maybe to someone else, it would be
> gentle...not sure.
Thinking about this, it strikes me that maybe entering the turn briskly
might be somewhat better, there are times that my base leg is almost
nonexistant. Adding in that for the first 45 degrees of turn, it's a turn
of variable radius.
In any case, I like to get the outboard wing back down
> ASAP to observe any traffic I may have missed previously.
<Evil grin> Not a problem in the 2-33. I do tend to start the turn to base
too early in the 1-26, but think that might be due to the fact that if I
look back at the strip, all I see is the right wing. Once it's banked, I
can see the strip again, but it usually becomes an "oh, sh*t" moment.
>
> The sooner in, the sooner out and the sooner you get feedback.
>
Oddly enough, I have better luck judging the path when in a turn, but it
wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of thinking on the curve.
But, as I nearly had hammered home a couple of flights ago, the angle of
bank means nothing if you haven't got the airspeed to support it.
Growing older means giving some things up as just "fond menories" I'm now
at the point that I think I used to have "fond memories"
Richard
AKA
Lennie the Lurker
President and Public Relations Officer
Whack-A-Loon, Ink.
Makers and Purveyors of Fine Loon Mallets
>