Good first sailplane?
Dan
flights, and I feel I'm nearing a private license. I fly at a club
which has a number of single seat gliders for rent (Ka-8, 1-36, 1-26, and
a Pilatus B-4). While, the planes are cheap ($2.50/15 minutes), you are
time limited, and there is plenty of competition for the aircraft. So I
have decided, I should get a plane once I get a license.
I am thinking that I want a medium to high performance all-metal ship,
which is easy to handle on the ground and in the air. My first thought was
of course the SGS 1-35, followed by the Schreder HP-18. The instructors
said to stay away from all the Schreder aircraft. My primary instructor
told me I should get a Russia AC-4 or 1-26 (he loves both of these planes),
and not get the 1-35. He felt that if I got the 1-35, I'd be tempted to
fly cross country, and hence land-out. He thought that the 1-35's 90 degree
flaps, were too hard to use for someone with my experience, and that in a
land-out situation, I wouldn't be able to land in a short space well. He
did feel the 1-34 was a reasonable plane. I'm not particularly interested
in either the 1-26 (too low performance), or the Russia (too expensive for
the performance).
I talked to some other instructors at the field. They said the 1-34 is a
reasonable plane, but that the 1-35 was more plane for the money and they
didn't feel it was unreasonable for a first plane. Someone also suggested
a PIK-20. The PIK-20 is higher performance than the 1-35, but its got the
same flap issue, and its glass (hence harder to manage on the ground - can't
be tied out). I've also been thinking the Pilatus B-4 would be a nice plane.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be a good plane for me?
dan
sba...@my-deja.com
Dan:
I was in the same situation you are now in about 6 months ago. I
wouldn't be too quick to rule out the Sch 1-26. In it's favor are good
handling qualities, excellent climbing ability, and airframe strength.
If you aren't going cross country, the 1-26 is the plane to have as it
climbs with all but the longest span fiberglass ships in light
conditions and it can turn tighter than just about anything. Once
you've learned what you need to know to go cross country, you will also
have been exposed to enough sailplanes to know which one you want and
the only limit will be how much you have to spend. Good Luck.
Scott Baber
In article <7isr0p$8a$1...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Da2071lV
I'm in virtually your exact same position. I've talked to a number of different
people as well. As for the flapped ships, they're probably a wee bit too
advanced for you at this stage of the game, but I don't know. I would ask your
instructor what they think as they know your personal flying habits, since all
pilots have different experience and skill levels. My instructor really liked
the 1-35, but said that because it is a full flapped ship, it's a rather tricky
transition. The same for the PIK-20; you'll definitely want a lot of hours
before you move on to that one. The 1-34 is a really great first ship: strong,
fairly good performance, and a great price. As for the Pilatus, i've never
flown one, but that sounds even better than the 1-34, as it's approved for
acro, giving you something more to do if you tire of thermalling for the day.
Also, if you want to leave your ship tied out, which it sounds like you do,
metal is obviously the best way to go. If you have the time and crew and don't
mind putting together the ship every time you fly it, there are some great
glass ships out there for the first time owner. In particular, a Grob Astir CS
or comparable model makes a wonderful sailplane; easy to fly, great
performance, and always in demand on the used market. Also, consider perhaps an
ASW-15 or 19, which share many of the Astir CS's good characteristics. Of
course, cost is always a major issue, and for the best value, you'll still want
to go with old metal. These are just a few suggestions, however; there's tons
of ships out there, and it will take quite a while before you, your instructor,
and others can decide which is the perfect sailplane for you. Well, that's my 2
cents.
Steve
Sean
I don't know what your budget is or if you've considered finding a couple
more people to join a syndicate and share the cost of buying a ship but you
might want to test fly an L-33 solo if it is in your price range.
All metal, no flaps, good performance though it won't compete against new
glass ships, a pleasure to fly, outstanding visibility, pretty and oversize
airbrakes for outstanding glidepath control.
http://www.nwinternet.com/~blanikam/ba/prod02.htm
There was an article published on the web some time ago by someone in your
position who compared a number of entry-level gliders.
http://www.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/compare.htm
It would appear you have a lot of choices in front of you.
Good luck.
se...@direct.ca
Mackfly
>> which is easy to handle on the ground and in the air.
Dan if you can find one---SGS 1-23H15--all metal 31 to 1---We gave $8,500
for ours---would not let it go for less than $11,000 now. We have added some
inst. and that seems near the going price for one. Mack (VP Omaha Soaring
Club Inc.)
Christopher Neuhaus
if you're looking for a medium to high performance glider, and don't want to
buy something like a Grob Astir CS or Club IIIb, i suggest you to consider
LS gliders. The LS-4 for example is a really great sailplane, not too hard
to fly, but still used in a lot of competitions. And used they aren't too
expensive, but you still get good value for your money!
blue skies
Ch.Neuhaus
--
Christopher Neuhaus
chne...@hotmail.com
(please verify before mailing, I can only use the Hotmail account!)
Gregory H. Aicklen
>
> I'm a student pilot (soloed 5 months ago). I have about 35 hours and 75
> flights, and I feel I'm nearing a private license. I fly at a club
> which has a number of single seat gliders for rent (Ka-8, 1-36, 1-26, and
> a Pilatus B-4). While, the planes are cheap ($2.50/15 minutes), you are
> time limited, and there is plenty of competition for the aircraft. So I
> have decided, I should get a plane once I get a license.
>
> of course the SGS 1-35, followed by the Schreder HP-18.
... deletions ...
Dan,
I bought my 1-35C just after getting my license last year, though I had
more
than double your hours. The 1-35 is a great aircraft, easy to fly (but
a
little higher workload when transitioning from cruise to climb and
back.) It's
easy to maintain, can land in a ridiculously short field (with full
flaps,
once you flare you are going to stop *right now*), and withstands bumps
and
potholes on landing that would seriously mess up many of the glass
ships.
I find my 1-35C to be extremely comfortable for hours on end (though a
bit
noisy), and not having to compete with everyone else for the club's
gliders
(I fly at Texas Soaring Association) is a big plus.
That said, let me caution you that you will have to get used to the
flaps.
The pitch change required to maintain airspeed as you deploy landing
flaps
is extreme (but look on the bright side ... you get a great view of the
landing area), and you need to be *very* smooth when you flare to avoid
ballooning. And if you do balloon, absolutely do not dump the flaps ...
you
will fall like a rock (this is theoretical knowledge only ... I believe
in
the science of aerodynamics and in learning from *other peoples*
mistakes).
My approach is to make *every* approach as though I was landing off
field
in a tiny little space; the flaps give you a great deal of control and
are
not hard to get used to, but you have got to be very confident of your
ability before lighting out cross-country.
The 1-35 is a great aircraft, but you should consult with your
instructors
before you invest in one (or any ship that is significantly different
from
those you already fly). And before you fly a ship using flaps for glide
path control, get a very good briefing from someone who has flown the
ship
before.
Good luck,
Greg
--
Gregory H. Aicklen SGS 1-35C - "PM"
------------------------------------------------------------
Corporate Research Center Alcatel USA
1201 E. Campbell Rd.
greg.a...@SPAMAWAYaud.alcatel.com Richardson, TX 75081
USA
Sula
>fly cross country, and hence land-out.
Temptation to fly cross-country should not be resisted, since it's about the
only rational reason to stay with this sport.
>He thought that the 1-35's 90 degree
>flaps, were too hard to use for someone with my experience, and that in a
>land-out situation, I wouldn't be able to land in a short space well.
You could learn to use flaps in perhaps a dozen flights (it's not difficult,
just different). Having done this, you could land safely in a very small
field.
>glass ... can't be tied out
The ability to tie out your glider may not be the advantage it seems.
Regardless of its composition, a glider stored in a decent trailer will
require less maintenance than one that is outside. Parking a trailer is
usually less costly. Gliders (generally composite) that are well designed
can be assembled quickly and are often ready for flight just about as fast
as the one that has been tied out and which must be cleaned. An
easy-assembling glider is usually much handier when landed off-field, thus
avoiding a psychological barrier to cross-country flying.
Many beginners latch on to the "keep it assembled and tied out" idea. But
speak to experienced pilots, especially those that do the kind of flying you
aspire to.
Roger Fowler
good trailer. But a poorly thought out trailer will be an
obstacle to flying. If you get one in a trailer do not under
estimate the importance of a good trailer.
--
Roger
Brian Case
>I'm a student pilot (soloed 5 months ago). I have about 35 hours and 75
>flights, and I feel I'm nearing a private license. I fly at a club
>which has a number of single seat gliders for rent (Ka-8, 1-36, 1-26, and
>a Pilatus B-4). While, the planes are cheap ($2.50/15 minutes), you are
>time limited, and there is plenty of competition for the aircraft. So I
>have decided, I should get a plane once I get a license.
>
>I am thinking that I want a medium to high performance all-metal ship,
>which is easy to handle on the ground and in the air. My first thought was
>of course the SGS 1-35, followed by the Schreder HP-18. The instructors
>said to stay away from all the Schreder aircraft. My primary instructor
Schreder aircraft offer some of the highest performance per dollar, I
don't know what you instructor has against them, just be aware that
they are amatuer built aircraft and it is worth while to buy one of
the nicer ones (well built) you can find.
>told me I should get a Russia AC-4 or 1-26 (he loves both of these planes),
Don;'t rule out the 1-26 to quickly, or other low performance training
aircraft. I have seen to many people jump into this sport with a
glider that had much more performance than they have skill. As a
result they become dicouraged because the can't make it fly like other
more experenced pilots do, and often get end up falling down when the
1-26's are staying up. You have one advantage in that you have club
aircraft like this to learn in.
>and not get the 1-35. He felt that if I got the 1-35, I'd be tempted to
>fly cross country, and hence land-out. He thought that the 1-35's 90 degree
You have got to be kidding, cross-country flying is the primary reason
for soaring. I would hope you would be temped to fly cross country in
anything you own. 1-26 ,1-35 or LS6. Land-outs are no big deal if you
plan for it. When I bought my 1-26 everyone told me the stories about
how often I was going to land out. After two seasons of flying and
some nice cross country flights I landing out twice not including 3
landouts at the Region 8 contest 1997.
>flaps, were too hard to use for someone with my experience, and that in a
Just be aware that flap are diffenerent and within a dozen flights you
so you should be fairly comfortable with them. With some practice you
can land a flapped ship as short or shorter than ships with dive
brakes or spoilers.
>land-out situation, I wouldn't be able to land in a short space well.
Find some place to get some Hi-performance 2 place training before
trying a hi-performance single place. This will improve you confidence
and give you some experence with Hi-performance aircraft
He
>did feel the 1-34 was a reasonable plane. I'm not particularly interested
>in either the 1-26 (too low performance), or the Russia (too expensive for
>the performance).
>
>I talked to some other instructors at the field. They said the 1-34 is a
>reasonable plane, but that the 1-35 was more plane for the money and they
>didn't feel it was unreasonable for a first plane. Someone also suggested
>a PIK-20. The PIK-20 is higher performance than the 1-35, but its got the
>same flap issue, and its glass (hence harder to manage on the ground - can't
>be tied out). I've also been thinking the Pilatus B-4 would be a nice plane.
>
>Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be a good plane for me?
>
>dan
>
>
>
Hope this helps
Brian Case
CFIG/ASEL
Inoj
I have flown a 1-34, B4-1-26...etc...I currently own an all metal Blanik
L-33...best plane I have ever flown ....you might look into an L-33 it's
wonderfu performing ship and a step up from the 1-26. . think about it.
Joni
FreeServe
> >glass ... can't be tied out
>
> The ability to tie out your glider may not be the advantage it seems.
> Regardless of its composition, a glider stored in a decent trailer will
> require less maintenance than one that is outside. Parking a trailer is
> usually less costly. Gliders (generally composite) that are well designed
> can be assembled quickly and are often ready for flight just about as fast
> as the one that has been tied out and which must be cleaned. An
> easy-assembling glider is usually much handier when landed off-field, thus
> avoiding a psychological barrier to cross-country flying.
>
> Many beginners latch on to the "keep it assembled and tied out" idea. But
> speak to experienced pilots, especially those that do the kind of flying
you
> aspire to.
If leaving it "tied out" is leaving them rigged thru the summer, then
anything can be left.....for instance the Nimbus 2 (which is a bastard to
rig) is left out during the summer with a full set of covers, however it is
advisable to wash them, as I was taking covers of a DG-100 this morning and
I nearly put my hands in 4 piles of bird shit
MB
John H. Campbell
>time limited, and there is plenty of competition for the aircraft. So I
>have decided, I should get a plane once I get a license.
Absolutely. If you can afford it all, do it if you expect to make any
further progress let alone gain any freedom to stay up as long as you want
and go any where you want (X/C or by trailer). And that's noting that your
club is exceptionally well endowed (for the USA) with practical and exciting
single-seat ships--many clubs hesitate to invest in any single-seaters. Do
not be afraid of joining with a partner or three--owning an aircraft all to
yourself is overkill as far as access to it, for all but the retired and the
obsessed. Meanwhile, your partners share costs and chores for
upkeep/repair and inspection.insurance, and become built-in ground crews on
a reciprocal basis.
>I am thinking that I want a medium to high performance all-metal ship.
"All metal" is 1960s powerpilot thinking. It is a crime to tie down any
glider, metal or not. Rust is any ugly thing, not to mention UV damage,
field mice... Your ship should live in its trailer. Once you get over the
threshold of rigging/derigging hassles it will be just about as fast to rig
as to untie (especially if you uise covers) or roll out. Plan to build some
biceps, learn how to avoid trailer-rash scrapes, learn the 'perfect'
alignememt of components and optimize task sequencing. So long as your ship
is going to live in a trailer, you want one that is easy enough to rig (most
are). Metal and wood are higher maintenance than fiberglass, at least if
you want pristine paint (it flakes and chips off).
>which is easy to handle on the ground and in the air. My first thought was
>of course the SGS 1-35, followed by the Schreder HP-18.
Sad to say, both these ships are exctremely poor choices for a first-time
owner. Add in the Monerai, the Zuni, the PIK-20B and any Schreder-flap
ship. We all love Dick and understand that the system is wonderful for
those that know how to use it, but we've seen too many Monerai PIOs, bashed
in 1-35 bellies and ground-looped HP-18s to recommend it. What can I say,
we have no dual training ships available with those characteristics. Don't
scare yourself right out of soaring having just started in it.
> I'm not particularly interested
>in either the 1-26 (too low performance), or the Russia (too expensive for
>the performance).
The 1-26 is in a class by itself. Literally. So is the PW-5. Like
hang-gliders (12:1, $5,0000--sound good?), they are to be taken as a whole,
with the performance understood to scale down with the cost and achievement
goals. The Russia is the cheapest 30:1 new sailplane on the market--if you
can't afford that in an absolute sense ($) you are in a limited purchasing
class dominated by very old used homebuilts.
>They said the 1-34 is a reasonable plane
A very good choice for a first-timeowner on a <$20,000 budget. Resale
opportunities are very good for when you decide to go for theat 2nd
sailplane.
>but that the 1-35 was more plane for the money and they didn't feel it was
>unreasonable for a first plane.
No way. Stay away from it until you have a lot more than 50 hours.
>Someone also suggested a PIK-20. The PIK-20 is higher performance than
>the 1-35, but its got the same flap issue, and it's glass (hence harder to
>manage on the ground - can't be tied out).
>Ditto the PIK-20(A or B) like the 1-35. It was designed for the cream of
European racing pilots of the late 1970s, not low-time novices. I had
touble with one when I had 200 hr. It's a ship for veteran but low-budget
CFI types not for novice consumers just out of the 2-33 or Blanik, never
mind the price.
Don't obsess on this "tie down" business. It's not the traditional
practice, you'll be an "oddball" in the sailplane world. Once you get used
to having your glider in a trailer, you gain incredible freedoms: trailer it
to whatever site you want to launch from, don't agonize over chasing badges
and landing off-field (you were going to takle the ship apart anyway).
>Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be a good plane for me?
Well, gee, how about the ones that were DESIGNED to be first-time-owner
aircraft: The 1-26, 1-34, PW-5, Russia, Junior, L-33, ASTIR. Personally, I
don't understand why the SZD 51-1 Junior isn't selling like hotcakes in the
USA as it is in England: A brand-new one is the same price as a good (20
year-old) ASW-19, it is low-maintenance poly-painted glass, huge cockpit and
payload, good cockpit ergonomics, easy handlng, huge fixed landing gear (a
G103 tile on a 500# glider!), slow-flying, very comfortable handling, decent
L/D (about 33), good clearance form rocks and bushes in case of landout,
auto copntrol connects. Maybe not the sexist racer around, but
modern-looking and ideal for your situation and as a club replacement for
those aging 1-34s and B4s. What it is, really, is an improved 1965 Phoebus
A (avoid stabilator ships, BTW!) and current factory support (Bolkow is long
out of business). See article in latest (June) SOARING) and reflect on that
pilot's experience.
JHC
Bernd Hennig
> I'm a student pilot (soloed 5 months ago). I have about 35 hours and 75
> flights, and I feel I'm nearing a private license. I fly at a club
> which has a number of single seat gliders for rent (Ka-8, 1-36, 1-26, and
> a Pilatus B-4). While, the planes are cheap ($2.50/15 minutes), you are
> time limited, and there is plenty of competition for the aircraft. So I
> have decided, I should get a plane once I get a license.
Hi Dan,
I bought my first plane before my solo (realy), a Phoebus C (I never wan't
to sell this plane). And after I had tested the DG 800S I ordered one because
I'm 192cm "long" and the DG 800S (or B) is a dream to sit in. Like I wrote as
a answer to an other question:
If you can pay the plane (or the monthley payment to your bank) without bigger
cuts in your livestyle (or with cuts if you accept this :-) !) than buy a new
one
or a newer one. A new plane is more secure than older types, easier to fly.
Ask the importeurs in the US to have a test-flight, try ALL the planes (LS-8,
ASW-27, DG-800) and think about a soaring plane that's eable to selfstart.
>
>
--
Bernd Hennig
2 Bangalla Ave. Bradbury N.S.W. 2560 AUSTRALIA
Phone: +61 (0)2 4626 1619 Fax: +61 (0)2 4626 1619
http://WWW.Segelflug.DE/segelflieger/bernd.hennig.bernd.html
E-Mail: Bernd....@Hennig.De
David Kinsell
Da2071lV <da20...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990531003311...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> Dan,
> I'm in virtually your exact same position. I've talked to a number of
different
> people as well. As for the flapped ships, they're probably a wee bit too
> advanced for you at this stage of the game, but I don't know. I would ask
your
> instructor what they think as they know your personal flying habits, since
all
> pilots have different experience and skill levels. My instructor really
liked
> the 1-35, but said that because it is a full flapped ship, it's a rather
tricky
> transition. The same for the PIK-20; you'll definitely want a lot of hours
> before you move on to that one.
The 20B is in that category, but the 20D has dive brakes and limited
deflection flaps. If Dan can handle a two-place fiberglass ship without
problems, then a 20D or LS-4 should be suitable. There's one for sale
in our club, http://www.csn.net/~rjc/piksale.html.
>The 1-34 is a really great first ship: strong,
> fairly good performance, and a great price.
Probably fits in best with what he has described as his requirements.
Not what most people call high-performance, but then metal ships
don't fall in that category these days.
I agree with other people who have commented on trying to limit
the cross-country appeal by the choice of ships. That borders
on silliness. Unless you fly somewhere that has no outlanding
options, cross-country flight is always something that should be
held open as a limitless challenge to improve your flying skills.
Dave Kinsell
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