Yoke with REAL trim out there?
Martin Boulerice
Is there any yoke available with a REAL trim mechanism?
I saw a late model CH yoke in a store, the feel is good, but the trim
mechanism is not realistic.
The trim is designed to relieve pressure from the yoke. In other words,
you trim until you do not have to exert pressure on the yoke, at the
position you want it to be.
I spent some time on the web in search of something better, but I do not
find anything.
Anybody can help?
Martin Boulerice
Québec, Canada
Bill Raymond
works very well and very close to real life. It does relieve the pressure
from the yoke when the aircraft is trimmed. Works in climbs, straight and
level and descents.
Bill
"Martin Boulerice" <nimby...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C410AA0...@NOSPAMyahoo.com...
Martin Boulerice
I cannot find your "CH Pro yoke USB" on the CH web site. Are you saying that
there is a motor inside the yoke assembly that move the neutral position of
the yoke when you are holding the switch to trim? This is exctacly what I am
looking for.
The model I saw in a store was the "Flight Sim Yoke USB LE". There was indeed
a lot of switchs on it... and also a trim wheel that changed the "attitude" of
the A/C on the screen but that would do nothing to the yoke itself
Martin Boulerice
Bill Raymond
Under the PC gear section of the CH web site the top left item, Flight sim
yoke USB is the one I am referring to.
The trim key assignment does not move the yoke itself. It merely trims the
aircraft so when you let go of the yoke or center it, the aircraft remains
level. There is no motorized action in the yoke to do what you describe. It
is the closest I can find to real life for the price. There is another yoke
by AFCSII for like $500 that may do what you want. Visit www.avsim.com and
check their on line store section.
Hope this clarifies matters further.
Bill
"Martin Boulerice" <nimby...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C414560...@NOSPAMyahoo.com...
Susan Jane Bea
neutral elevator surface position (not trim surface). Bill is referring to a
rocker switch on the lefthand arm of the yoke that everyone normally assigns
as the trim switch for altering the pitch trim surface. It does not
physically move the yoke when activated, it just moves the simulator trim
surface.
Susan.
Martin Boulerice <nimby...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C410AA0...@NOSPAMyahoo.com...
Andy & Lucinda
I have the CH USB yoke. It has a mechanical trim wheel that adjusts the
yoke located on the left side of the panel. Maybe this is discontinued
on the newer models?
Andy
Martin Boulerice
The way I understand it, you press the switch, then the pitch remain constant
while you let the yoke return to neutral. After that you release the switch and
the yoke retake control in the pitch axis. *** Am I correct? ***
Originaly, I was under the impression that while you hold the switch (nose up or
nose down) you had to bring the yoke to neutral at the same rate the Flight Sim
was "trimming" the plane.
I went to www.avsim.com to check AFCSII... all metal construction..., but they
do not give enough informations... and with the Cirrus rudder pedals you almost
hit the $1000 US mark... I'm sure these are great products but I can fly for 13
hours (or spend 15 hours with a CFI in a Flight Training Device) with that kind
of money.
Martin
Martin Boulerice
Your mechanical trim wheel is physicaly changing the neutral position of the
yoke in the pitch axis? So when you do slow flight the yoke is trimmed "into"
your stomach like in real life?
Look interesting
Martin
Martin Boulerice
That wheel is only there to tune the neutral position of the yoke with the
neutral position of the flight sim "elevator".
I'm starting to think that I will have to modify a store bought yoke to make it
work more like the real thing. Oh well, if the trim work like I think (see reply
to Bill) then that could be a good compomise.
Martin
Darren L. Shields
and I trimmed nose up or down the yoke only moves in relation to the control
surface. Thus when I trim nose up I have to keep forward pressure to
maintain the same altitude. The same would seem to apply for the CH product.
Whist flying hands on and trimming nose up for instance, you will be able to
release some of the back pressure on the yoke. It may not be the same exact
feeling you get as in flight but unless you're going to spend that thousand
dollars for a true high end flight control system or $30,000 for your own
aircraft I'd say you were out of luck.
Darren
"Martin Boulerice" <nimby...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C41F878...@NOSPAMyahoo.com...
Billy Verreynne
>Martin what you're looking for is unrealistic.
Beg to differ, if you are refering to trim changing the pitch of the
joystick.
Flight Unlimited 3 I think was one of the first sims that did this
using forcefeedback. Trimming cause the stick to physically move
forwards and backwards. FS2002 also emulates this.
You need to use a forcefeedback stick though. And the sim needs to
support this type of output to the stick. The forcefeedback also needs
to be active - with the old MS Sidewinder I have, this only happens
when you place your hand on the stick and break the photo-electrical
light at the back of the grip. This "engages" the forcefeedback motor.
Not really ideal (using a deathgrip to hold the stick all the time),
but it works okay.
--
Billy
Andy & Lucinda
Yes, the trim wheel adjusts the neutral position of the pitch axis. It
moves the yoke in/out. The yoke movement is therefore input into the
sim.
Bear in mind this is not as "fine" of adjustment as the elevator trim
within the sim itself (at least not in my experience). There is not a
wide range of movement. But with careful setting you can achieve the
same effect. If I were to guess I would say the trim wheel has the
range of two or three keyboard "clicks" in pitch - not trim - motion.
Andy
TD
> Hello!
>
> Is there any yoke available with a REAL trim mechanism?
Yes, see: http://www.flypfc.com/flight%20training%20hardware/flight%20consoles.html
You need the $5000 USD PFC Professional flight console which has a
wheel trimming device similar to most GA airplanes instead of the
push-button electronic trimming devices found in almost every other
yoke.
TD
Martin Boulerice
This is excatly what I am looking for... but you are saying that the trim mechanism
do not permit to move the neutral position of the yoke completely in or completely
out.
Is you yoke simply called CH USB?
Martin Boulerice
Euh....
I suppose that my explanation was unclear.
In real life, when you fly out of trim, you have to exert a pressure on the yoke
(push or pull).... The purpose of the trim *for the pilot* is to relieve him to
have to exert that pressure. When you rotate the trim wheel or push a trim
button... the handwheel do not move at all because you are holding your
attitude. You know when you are now trimmed simply because you do not have to
exert any pressure on the yoke in order to hold your attitude. But the yoke is
still at the very same position it was 2 minutes before when you was flying out
of trim.
In a well rigged aircraft, when you are flying slow, at the border of
stalling... you will trim all the way to the limit and the handwheel will be
completly extended.
You can also fly with the trim wheel only... When you will trim nose up, the
yoke will come out toward you, and when you will trim nose down, the yoke will
move forward.
What I say is from the pilot perspective, forget about the trim tab. BTW, the
only purpose of the trim tab is to move the elevator without pilot input (some
aircraft do not have any trim tab, there is springs in the controls).
If somebody ever flew an airplane (not ultralight) that reacted differently,
please tell me.
(I have not yet flown jets, but I suppose that even the moving horizontal
stabilizer do not change the way the trim is saw by the pilot. Maybe I should
discuss that at work with a test pilot)
The personnal computer yoke trim system is... well... from what I see it work in
a different manner. The "trim" change the "attitude" of the simulated aircraft.
Thus you are trimmed when the yoke is in his central position and you are
holding your attitude hands off. Now, if you "fly" nose up and out of trim, you
have to pull on the yoke. When you want to trim, what do you do? You push the
nose down button and what happen? What do you do with the yoke?
Can somebody explain it to me, please!
The only thing I know about "cheap" yoke is that you seems to be able to "fly"
with the trim (like a real aircraft) but the yoke won't move.
"Real feeling" trim system is not rocket science. In the yoke you buy, there is
already a spring or two that center the yoke in the pitch axis. The manufacturer
could implement something that would move those springs to move the neutral
position. But cheap mass manufacturing do not promote "complex" mechanical
stuff.
Can somebody explain to me what you do and what happen when you "trim" your
flight sim while using a yoke?
The salesmen in stores don't know anything, but you can explain it, I'm sure.
Thanks guys :¬)
Martin
Martin Boulerice
Hum, I'm sure it is a sin to run MS Flight Sim (~$70) on a $5000 console :¬)
I'm really looking for something *more* affordable. Else I will modify a store bough unit.
Thanks TD
Martin
Martin Boulerice
Do the newer MS Sidewinder lack the photo cell?
Good evening Billy
Martin
Brett I. Holcomb
I establish the attitude of the aircraft and then get power settings where
I want them which causes the aircraft to move toward it's airspeed for the
attitude and power settings. During this process I push the button I have
assigned to trim to help relieve some of the pressure - same as in a real
aircraft I just trim it a little to make it easier for me and relieve
stick/yoke pressure. As the aircraft settles out to it's airspeed I add
more trim until finally I have the attitude and airspeed where I want it
and the aircraft it trimmed. I have set up the FS a/c where they will fly
for a long time and stay on heading and at altitude without the autopilot
and my hands off the stick - I've even checked and answered email on some
flights. I really don't worry about where the stick/yoke is. I've done
the same as a real a/c - set the attitude and power and trimmed to hold it.
Martin Boulerice wrote:
> Darren,
>
> Euh....
>
> I suppose that my explanation was unclear.
>
> In real life, when you fly out of trim, you have to exert a pressure on
> the yoke (push or pull).... The purpose of the trim *for the pilot* is to
> relieve him to have to exert that pressure. When you rotate the trim wheel
> or push a trim button... the handwheel do not move at all because you are
> holding your attitude. You know when you are now trimmed simply because
> you do not have to exert any pressure on the yoke in order to hold your
> attitude. But the yoke is still at the very same position it was 2 minutes
> before when you was flying out of trim.
>
> In a well rigged aircraft, when you are flying slow, at the border of
> stalling... you will trim all the way to the limit and the handwheel will
> be completly extended.
>
> You can also fly with the trim wheel only... When you will trim nose up,
> the yoke will come out toward you, and when you will trim nose down, the
> yoke will move forward.
>
> What I say is from the pilot perspective, forget about the trim tab. BTW,
> the only purpose of the trim tab is to move the elevator without pilot
> input (some aircraft do not have any trim tab, there is springs in the
> controls).
>
> If somebody ever flew an airplane (not ultralight) that reacted
> differently, please tell me.
>
>
>
> "Darren L. Shields" wrote:
>
>> Martin what you're looking for is unrealistic. When I was taking lessons
>> and I trimmed nose up or down the yoke only moves in relation to the
>> control surface. Thus when I trim nose up I have to keep forward pressure
>> to maintain the same altitude. The same would seem to apply for the CH
>> product. Whist flying hands on and trimming nose up for instance, you
>> will be able to
>> release some of the back pressure on the yoke. It may not be the same
>> exact feeling you get as in flight but unless you're going to spend that
>> thousand dollars for a true high end flight control system or $30,000 for
>> your own aircraft I'd say you were out of luck.
--
Brett I. Holcomb
bhol...@R777cableone.net
Microsoft MVP
AKA Grunt <><
Remove R777 to email
Andy & Lucinda
easily (if your elevator trim position in the sim is at neutral).
I looked at the bottom of my yoke and there is no model number. I
believe it is simply the CH USB Yoke. I purchased it along with pedals
directly from CH in February of last year. It's the one with the
throttle, pitch and mixture levers.
Best regards and have fun!
Billy Verreynne
>Would be good to play with the Extra 300.
Not so sure Martin. The criteria is how well does the simulation use
forcefeedback. Unfortunately, MSFS is not at the top of that pile.
It at times frustrates me to no end that they want to cater for the
arcade gamer crowd in flight simulators. You have the stick jerking
around on take off roll to simulate runway bumps. You have the stick
thumping when the gear is retracted. Crap like that. Fortunately,
these can be disabled in FS2002.
The best sims for forcefeedback IMO are Warbirds and Dawn of Aces
(DoA). I used to fly DoA a lot online when it was still in the beta
testing phase. I am sure that having a forcefeedback stick gives you
an advantage when flying like that. The virtual plane talks to me via
that stick. Tells me when I am starting to push it to the limits.
I tried DoA with the normal Sidewinder Pro. It did not feel the same
and I had no cues (except sound) as to what the plane will be doing
next when doing ACM.
In Warbirds it is the same. Going into a dive getting at Vne and the
stick is heavy and mostly dead. :-)
>Do the newer MS Sidewinder lack the photo cell?
Doubt it Martin. I think it is a kind of safety feature. Enabling the
forcefeedback motor only when the grip is held. You can however simply
stick some putty at the bottom of the grip, cover the cell, and have
it active all the time that way.
The forcefeedback Sidewinder Pro IMO is worth the money. I have had
mine now for close on 5 years. It is the only MS product that I really
recomended. However - it is not really the real thing either. But it
is IMO a lot better than the normal digital stick. I have an old and a
new Sidewinder Pro stick (non-forcefeedback). Quality sticks. Works
great. Not in the same league as that old forcefeedback stick though.
--
Billy
Etz
> The forcefeedback also needs
> to be active - with the old MS Sidewinder I have, this only happens
> when you place your hand on the stick and break the photo-electrical
> light at the back of the grip. This "engages" the forcefeedback motor.
> Not really ideal (using a deathgrip to hold the stick all the time),
> but it works okay.
How about a piece of electrical tape over the sensor?
Andre
"Billy Verreynne" <vsl...@onwe.co.za> wrote in message
news:3c42a052....@news.saix.net...
>
> You need to use a forcefeedback stick though. And the sim needs to
> support this type of output to the stick. The forcefeedback also needs
> to be active - with the old MS Sidewinder I have, this only happens
> when you place your hand on the stick and break the photo-electrical
> light at the back of the grip. This "engages" the forcefeedback motor.
> Not really ideal (using a deathgrip to hold the stick all the time),
> but it works okay.
>
The same goes with the MS FF2, although the sensors are on the front of the
joystick handle. You can definitely feel the state of trim of the aircraft
by the tension of the stick.