The quest for a perfect Mac joystick...
Robert Dorsett
MouseStick. Well, now I've seen the MacFLY.
Comments:
1. I HATE the dickering around with the modem port. It needs to be plugged
into either the modem or printer port.
2. Took a while to figure out how to configure it. But after some inspec-
tion, the design does make some sense. I particularly like the
Man/Auto mode, which allows one to use the buttons to substitute for
key commands. So one click might mean flaps, two clicks gear, three
clicks throttle cut-off--and to get back into flight mode, just flip
the switch, and one click can mean machine-guns, two bombs, etc...
3. The trim wheels seem rather cheap, soft plastic. So does the Auto/Man
button.
4. The suction cups are completely inadequate. Serious users would probably
want to take it apart and build a stationary mount of some kind.
5. I wouldn't have much confidence in its "longetivity"... Feels stiff
NOW, but how about after 100 hours of play?
6. Hellcats/Leyte-style el cheapo photocopied & stapled users manual.
But... I like it. :-) Much more than the Gravis stick; this one feels more
like a "real" pilot-stick (at least one can grip it and pull back-stick
[assuming the suction cups stick]). The stick-play feels really nice, just
enough of a null zone. I had no problem dogfighting or landing in Leyte
(takeoffs were a bit interesting, until I got the trim set).
Overall, I think it's worth the $45 from GS. With some qualifications: It
need an A/B switch for the printer port, plus some kind of proper mount.
I'd think twice about spending the MSRP of $80, though. But unlike the
Gravis stick, which I swapped for some cables, I think I might actually buy
this one. :-)
---
Robert Dorsett
Still searching for the perfect stick.
r...@cactus.org
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd
Robert J Woodhead
>Those of you familiar with my past tirades know that I *detest* the Gravis
>MouseStick. Well, now I've seen the MacFLY.
>Comments:
>1. I HATE the dickering around with the modem port. It needs to be plugged
> into either the modem or printer port.
Why doesn't someone build a stick that hooks up to the Apple Desktop
Bus (just like the mouse and keyboard do)
* You could hook up multiple sticks (stick, throttle, rudder, even a
"control panel") with tons of buttons.
* A simple control panel would map the buttons and sticks to the
appropriate Mac events (mouse movements, keypresses) that the
various programs are expecting. Heck, it could even check to
see what program is running and do it automatically.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Robert J. Woodhead, Biar Games / AnimEigo, Incs. tre...@forEtune.co.jp |
| AnimEigo US Office Email (for general questions): 7244...@compuserve.com |
Robert Dorsett
to pilots! :-)
In article <1993May27.0...@foretune.co.jp> tre...@foretune.co.jp (Robert Woodhead) writes:
>Why doesn't someone build a stick that hooks up to the Apple Desktop
>Bus (just like the mouse and keyboard do)
That's what the Gravis device does. Unfortunately, the first MouseStick
has horrible ergonomics, and the new one (which I haven't played with,
mind you; nor do the pics incline me to do so) doesn't look much better.
They're tech art deco, which is the main problem--the human factors of pilot-
style joysticks are well-established, with certain optimal grip requirements.
Apparently, Gravis lets its artsy-fartsy types establish design. "We're
DIFFERENT! Buy us!" No way, man. :-)
The first stick, for instance, was apparently originally intended as a "high-
performance" CAD stick (the documention certainly didn't emphasize games,
at any rate), and then was remarketed at the gamers. Unfortunately,
the stick is only four or five inches high: therefore, if you have a human
hand, it's impossible to use it in a flight simulator (ESPECIALLY fighter
simulators) while gripping it--the heel of the hand will constantly hit the
base. One has to "control" it from the top, using one's finger tips,
daintily, which is worse than using a mouse, much more unstable.
As I commented to friends today:
Gravis: great quality, good design, lousy ergonomics.
MacFLY: poor quality, fair design, good ergonomics.
For my requirements (transport-category flight simulation, but this could
easily apply to other simulators), a GOOD stick needs:
1. Fighter-style design.
2. A front trigger-button (Push-to-talk/shoot switch)
3. An independent thumb-button (autopilot disconnect).
4. A two-way rocker trim switch (not that any simulator seems to
support trim, although I think Hellcats could. Some simulators "mention"
trim, but since they don't provide feedback cues as to control *forces*,
it's all but irrelevant information.
5. A BIG, stationary base, clip-on might work. The stick base should NOT
move while in use, and should be able to withstand aggressive use.
A GREAT stick would need some kind of servo-based "feel" system, with no
centering, to allow the user to "feel" aerodynamic forces. They don't need
to be great, but they do need to be there; more clever spring/pulley arrange-
ments could serve a similar purpose (light positive forces for minor
movements, greater resistance for hard/abrupt movements). With some kind of
pitch trim force supplement, to allow the user to trim away the forces.
But at the very least, SOMETHING is needed to to make the user expend 20 to
40 pounds of force when trying to fly a 9-g turn, to *discourage* the
excessive use of radical maneuvers. This need was brought home to me last
week, when I visited a 727 simulator. I haven't flown a real airplane in
over two years. In a simple 45-degree turn, I started to do a fighter-style
60-degree bank, then caught myself: "What the HELL are you doing, Robert?
The passengers will get sick!" :-) Patience is a virtue when flying, and
an interface that discourages the "get it there, NOW" impulse is a Good
Thing. :-)
The Major Problem with joysticks is that they spring-load to a neutral
position, which isn't really realistic--it allows one to fly "conventional"
aircraft-simulators with what amounts to flight-path guidance. I might buy
it with an F-18 or an F-16, but not with a F6F or any GA-category
aircraft. :-) Yes, it makes the simulator easy to use, but is it "realistic"
or representative of how the real airplanes fly? Not really; even a mouse
is better in this respect. Take Hellcats, for instance: if one does a simple
loop with a mouse, one is constantly re-adjusting the airplane attitude
based on out-the-window perceptions and flight instruments. When one reaches
the 180 mark, one usually *isn't* exactly 180 degrees aft of the original
heading. With a joystick, roll control is centered, and you have a nice
mechanical channel to "pull back." Thus, you'll end up *exactly* 180 degrees
aft of the original heading. This isn't really realistic, but users love
it! :-)
What else? Rudder pedals, in which a spring probably COULD do the job.
Robustness, again, is important. Plastic doesn't work for me; they'd need
to be metal, with some kind of anchor.
How much? I'd spend up to $200 for a decent stick/rudder combo, maybe up
to $500 for a GREAT combo (active feel). But I'm a crackpot.
Realism seems to be a nebulous state of affairs with respect to consumer
simulators. A game player even commented that "real" airplane controls
spring-load to neutral, recently.
What retail simulators claim is "realistic" tends to influence non-pilot
users' *definition* and *expectation* of realism, whether the games are,
in fact, realistic or not. At least two retail games have used this to
*great* marketing effect.
Since realism is a fickle thing, and one can sell these things to a video
game market, why bother doing better? :-) Especially when something like
this would certainly require simulator developer participation and
coordination, which is a potentially expensive risk proposition to base
hardware development on--who knows if they're CAPABLE of using the stick
properly?
Lastly, to contradict everything stated above: if the objective IS to practice
part-task skills (IFR navigation, systems, etc), you don't really NEED
anything much more complex than a simple mouse-based interface, anyway. :-)
I keep saying this; nobody believes me...:-)
---
Robert Dorsett
r...@cactus.org
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd
Scott Leapman
> >1. I HATE the dickering around with the modem port. It needs to be plugged
> > into either the modem or printer port.
>
> Why doesn't someone build a stick that hooks up to the Apple Desktop
> Bus (just like the mouse and keyboard do)
>
control panel to configure all of the buttons and stick directions (per
application!) It's not perfect, but it works pretty well.
sea...@ac.dal.ca
Someone from Germany mentioned that a company there makes an ADB adaptor for
Commodore and Atari joysticks so they can be used on the Mac. Well, today I
read a press release from Applied Engineering: they are now carrying MacEnjoy
in the US! The price (SRP?) was $65, a bit on the expensive side, but the
software does the same sort of thing that the Gravis gamepad does,
autoconfiguring the stick for each game, etc. The PR was on AppleLink BTW.
So now the search is extended to hundreds of joysticks. I'm sure someone out
there has the ideal stick that will now work on a Mac...
Sean
-----------------
sea...@ac.dal.ca
chri...@muvms6.wvnet.edu
> So now the search is extended to hundreds of joysticks. I'm sure someone out
> there has the ideal stick that will now work on a Mac...
>
> Sean
> -----------------
> sea...@ac.dal.ca
Yeah, it's called a basesball bat....there is no such thing as a perfect
joystick for the mac, especially those crummy ones that you can buy for 40
bucks with the coupons you get when you buy your computer.
Bob
Howard Berkey
>
>Yeah, it's called a basesball bat....there is no such thing as a perfect
>joystick for the mac, especially those crummy ones that you can buy for 40
>bucks with the coupons you get when you buy your computer.
>
>Bob
>
Yup, there hasn't been a perfect joystick for any computer since the
Atari 800 when, paradoxically, there were several.
-H-
--
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Howard Berkey how...@netcom.com
This is why events unnerve me
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Robert J Woodhead
>Yup, there hasn't been a perfect joystick for any computer since the
>Atari 800 when, paradoxically, there were several.
Perhaps the ideal solution would be a ADB interface box that lets you
plug an IBM joystick into it. This would get you access to all the
IBM sticks, and let's face it, if "the perfect joystick" is ever
made, it will most likely come out on the IBM first.