RHCI’s Official Mini-500 Builder/Pilot’s Safety Meeting
dfet...@unicom.net
RHCI’s Official Mini-500 Builder/Pilot’s Safety Meeting
Dear Mini-500 owners and Newsgroup participants,
US Aviator magazine and some other Mini-500 detractors have taken it upon
themselves to schedule a meeting involving our Mini-500 owners and potential
customers. This is being done without the consent or permission of Revolution
Helicopter Corp. (RHCI), and we don’t appreciate their interference in our
business. The editor of US Aviator and the other people involved with this
meeting tried to damage RHCI by holding a similar meeting last year in
Dallas, Texas. Recently they have been posting false statements about RHCI,
the safety of the Mini-500 and my personal character on the internet. These
are the last people who could have a fair and impartial meeting, especially
with their obvious conflicts of interests, which were explained to the
newsgroups in my three part report not long ago.
RHCI has the business of dealing with Mini-500 concerns and safety issues.
There will indeed be a Mini-500 builder/pilot safety meeting. The meeting
will be held here at the Revolution Helicopter factory and hosted by us, as
it should be. The meeting will be held February 6 and 7, 1999, and start 8:00
a.m. each day, ending 5:00 p.m. on Saturday and 3:00 p.m. on Sunday. The
meeting is for Mini- 500 owners and the public, so all interested parties are
invited.
We decided to schedule our February meeting for the following reasons:
1. Mini-500 issues are our business, and we should always be the one to
deal with them.
2. RHCI was planning to have a meeting later in the year, but since a date
has been set, we’ll keep it on February 6 for the convenience of those who
have already scheduled time off.
3. The previous meeting in Dallas provided no fixes for any technical
problems concerning the Mini-500. After reading the latest article published
by US Aviator, we see the same kind of meeting happening again. At the end of
the US Aviator article you’ll see telephone numbers for Jim Campbell and Fred
Stewart, both with conflicting interests as we reported on in the earlier
posting previously mentioned. If our customers go to the expense of travel,
we want to make sure they get the information they’re coming for.
4. RHCI now has the modifications for the Mini-500 that will provide the
owners with what they’ll need. The meeting planned by the US Aviator group
will not provide technical solutions, but only share ideas, which is no
longer a point since RHCI has already developed the modifications.
5. If you want to go on vacation to sunny Florida and talk to people that
can do nothing for you, then go to the US Aviator meeting. If you want the
solutions to the Mini-500 issues, and want to learn all about this aircraft in
the place where it’s built, then come to our official meeting.
Subject matters will be straightforward and to the point, with the main
purpose being for education and knowledge concerning the operation of the
Mini-500. The subject matters to be discussed will be:
1. The Mini-500 Airframe, Control and Rotor System modifications.
What the new systems consist of, how to install it, and their benefits.
2. Care and Maintenance of the Mini-500.
What to do, what not to do, and things to watch for. We will also relay common
mistakes made, and show you what the latest upgrades have been.
3. Care and Maintenance of the 582 Rotax engine.
We are scheduling a leading expert in maintenance for the Rotax engine to come
to the meeting and show everyone the care and maintenance required for the 582
Rotax engine.
4. Tracking and Dynamically Balancing of the Mini-500. With the new Mast
Support System, the Mini-500 requires a totally new procedure for smoothing
the rotor system. We will have the man here that made dynamic balancing
possible for the Mini-500...... Mr. Norm Serrano of Vib-Tech Int’l. Norm will
take us through the new procedure to smooth out the Mini-500, and teach
everyone the basics on dynamic balancing.
5. Accident and incident investigation. We will group and categorize every
known case of a Mini-500 that has had an accident, the cause, and what could
have been done to prevent it. We will also have a safety seminar and talk
about how some pilots have got into trouble, what they need to do to stay out
of trouble, and what to do if trouble arises.
6. Open forum meeting. At the end of the technical and safety segments of
the event, RHCI will open the floor for any matter that someone would wish to
discuss. We’ll answer any question we can, and listen to any recommendations
someone may have.
RHCI has the entire mailing list of all Mini-500 owners, and we are sending
them all a notice of our meeting, and a copy of our report that was posted
not long ago about what the real story behind the US Aviator meeting is. They
will see the proof that the meeting planed in Florida is full of hidden
agendas, and why.
Each person needs to ask themselves the question, “Where will I learn and gain
the most?” In a meeting room in Florida with a few people with very little
possibility of developing a solution, or at the factory with the people that
made this whole thing possible in the first place, and where the answer to the
problem has been developed?
Now, if Jim Campbell and Fred Stewart only want a meeting to find fixes and
have a safety seminar for the Mini-500, then they should cancel their meeting
and encourage everyone to attend ours, because we now have the modification
they were hoping to come up with, and we have all the Mini-500 accidents
listed here to look at for a safety seminar. If they still try and have their
meeting, or change their date, then it’s obvious that they have other
intents. Let’s see what they do.
For those that are interested, we’ll also have the new Voyager-500 two-place
helicopter on display.
We will post a listing of hotels and car rentals that are located in our
local area very soon, or you can call RHCI and ask for that information at
(816) 630- 2800. Make reservations now, we’re expecting a very large crowd!
Thank you for your attention, and I look forward to seeing you here at the
Revolution Helicopter factory on February 6 and 7, 1999 at:
Revolution Helicopter Corp.
1905 West Jesse James Road
Excelsior Springs, Missouri 64024
USA
Sincerely,
Mr. D. Fetters
President,
Revolution Helicopter Corp.
Email: <dfet...@unicom.net>
Webpage: <http://www.revolutionhelicopter.com>
Check out the new Voyager-500 Two-place Helicopter!!
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Brian Herdeg
I think this meeting is great. By-the-way, I missed the part in
your past postings about why the Rotax engine has had so many
failures. In particular, do you have any data on Alan Barklette's
(sp?) engine failure?
I can reconcile most engine failures to poor maintainance, or poor
airmanship, etc. - but not with Alan's situation.
Not looking to start a flame, just think I missed something.
Brian
---------
fste...@mini500.com
dfet...@unicom.net wrote:
> Revolution Helicopter News Release..........
>
> RHCI’s Official Mini-500 Builder/Pilot’s Safety Meeting
>
> Dear Mini-500 owners and Newsgroup participants,
>
> US Aviator magazine and some other Mini-500 detractors have taken it upon
> themselves to schedule a meeting involving our Mini-500 owners and potential
> customers. This is being done without the consent or permission of Revolution
> Helicopter Corp. (RHCI), and we don’t appreciate their interference in our
> business.
Excuse me, I didn't know WE had to have your permission. There are EAA
chapters and aviation clubs all over the world and I don't know of one that
has to have the parts manufacturers permission to get together for an
exchange of ideas. You sir do not own our helicopters and have no right to
tell us when we can and can't get together. Remember in your contract you
are a provider of parts only, you do not provide a helicopter. Remember you
accept no responsibility for the kit provided to us. You could have come to
our meeting, but there you can't have control and spew forth your lies and
propaganda and blame everyone else for your ignorance. Just like the meeting
in Dallas, I had no plans to speak, only a focal point for owners/builders to
bitch.
>The editor of US Aviator and the other people involved with this
> meeting tried to damage RHCI by holding a similar meeting last year in
> Dallas, Texas. Recently they have been posting false statements about
RHCI,
> the safety of the Mini-500 and my personal character on the internet. These
> are the last people who could have a fair and impartial meeting, especially
> with their obvious conflicts of interests, which were explained to the
> newsgroups in my three part report not long ago.
Are you telling me that just because you post it, it is the truth? You have
been lying to everyone for years. You sir are a liar. The only damage to
RHCI has been done by you. I will now defend myself. The only conflict of
interest I have with you is you don't give a damn whether we live or die as
long as you get your blood money, I on the other hand have trouble sleeping
at night because of the Mini-500's that I sold for you. I ask for ONE person
that attended the Dallas meeting to step up and explain the hidden agenda. I
ask for ONE person, just ONE person that attended the Dallas meeting to step
up and explain to the newsgroup when I spoke. Did anyone hear me address the
group except when you were next door by yourself and I asked everyone to at
least go next door and hear what you have to say?
>
> We decided to schedule our February meeting for the following reasons:
>
> 1. Mini-500 issues are our business, and we should always be the one to
> deal with them.
Then where in the fuck have you been!!!!! You have intentionally avoided and
slandered everyone you come in contact with. You don't seem to give a shit
until someone else comes forward and decides to do something that you have
not taken the initative to do. You decided to schedule your meeting in Feb
because you don't have the guts to attend ours and you cannot stand the fact
that we are trying to do something to your bundle of parts you sold.
> 3. The previous meeting in Dallas provided no fixes for any technical
> problems concerning the Mini-500. After reading the latest article published
> by US Aviator, we see the same kind of meeting happening again. At the end of
> the US Aviator article you’ll see telephone numbers for Jim Campbell and Fred
> Stewart, both with conflicting interests as we reported on in the earlier
> posting previously mentioned. If our customers go to the expense of travel,
> we want to make sure they get the information they’re coming for.
You are right, the first step was to get everyone together to find out the
real problems since you and Laura told everyone of us that you wern't having
those problems, when indeed you were, LIAR. As far as the conflict of
interest, you are right again. I am concerned with safety and making the
Mini-500 safe and you are are concerned with getting the next check from the
next unspecting shmuck.
>
> 4. RHCI now has the modifications for the Mini-500 that will provide the
> owners with what they’ll need. The meeting planned by the US Aviator group
> will not provide technical solutions, but only share ideas, which is no
> longer a point since RHCI has already developed the modifications.
>
What took YOU so long? 4 years is a long time to wait for fixes. At the
service center meeting last October (1997) you addressed the group of Service
Center Reps and told us of the belt tensioner and the mast support. This is
not new news to any of the Service Reps that were present. You said then
that was the almighty cure. Lets see that was 13 months ago. Present at the
Service Center Meeting was Bill Bennett, John Haines, Fred Pitcher, Joe
Green, Max Sherrill, and myself. Nothing came out of that meeting, except
more propaganda and lies. Of course when Max posted about this meeting all
you had to say is that he was lucky to have been invited. You never addressed
the issues. I along with Gil Armbruster, Bill Bennett, John Haines, Ron
Prince, Jeff Hearst, Pete Connors (one of you ex-employees), heard every word
that Joe Rinke had to say about the belt tensioner that Joe developed (now
your tensioner) http://www.rinke-aerospace.com/fyi.htm It was a bad idea
then but now it is the cure, you THIEF.
> 6. Open forum meeting. At the end of the technical and safety segments of
> the event, RHCI will open the floor for any matter that someone would wish to
> discuss. We’ll answer any question we can, and listen to any recommendations
> someone may have.
I have been to you so called open forum meetings. You have never listened to
one recommendation that anyone of us has ever talked to you about. You shut
up anyone that opposes your view. You have never listened to a
recommendation in your life. That is why this problem has been going on
since 1995.
>RHCI has the entire mailing list of all Mini-500 owners, and we are sending
>them all a notice of our meeting, and a copy of our report that was posted
>not long ago about what the real story behind the US Aviator meeting is. They
>will see the proof that the meeting planed in Florida is full of hidden
>agendas, and why.
What hidden agenda? I am still trying to figure out the last hidden agenda.
Can someone explain this to me.
> Now, if Jim Campbell and Fred Stewart only want a meeting to find fixes and
> have a safety seminar for the Mini-500, then they should cancel their meeting
> and encourage everyone to attend ours, because we now have the modification
> they were hoping to come up with, and we have all the Mini-500 accidents
> listed here to look at for a safety seminar. If they still try and have their
> meeting, or change their date, then it’s obvious that they have other
> intents. Let’s see what they do.
Knock your self out. I am so sick of trying to make a wrong right, but with
assholes like you out there with no conscious, it is in vain. I do encourage
everyone to attend your meeting. You ask us to change our date or cancel or
it is obvious that we have other intents. Lets see, we can't change our date
or have our meeting as planned. Not many options left for us is there.
Guess we can't have our meeting at all. Not a free country. You win.
The following is a letter I sent to Dennis Fetters (and a copy to Dave Martin
from Kitplanes) on March 9 1998 after the Dallas Meeting. The only response
I received from RHCI was a nasty registerd letter canceling my dealership
(thank you) and telling me not to represent myself as a dealer at all. I
sent this letter at the suggestion of Dave Martin to try to patch things up
between Dennis and all of us.
Subject:
mini 500
Date:
Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:03:09 -0600
From:
Fred Stewart <fste...@mini500.com>
Organization:
XYQUAD INC.
To:
la...@revolutionhelicopter.com
CC:
da...@kitplanes.com
Hi Dennis
I had a conversation with Dave Martin from Kitplanes Magazine early
last week and he suggested that we try to come to terms. I don't want
to see this letter or any part of it on the internet or anywhere else.
What is said in the letter is between you and I, no one else.
I hope that now that the dust has settled from the meeting in Dallas
that you realize that there was no hidden agenda in the Meeting. You
were expecting something to happen at the meeting that never took
place. You seem to be blaming myself and others for the position of
Revolution Helicopter at the moment. I would like to back up a little
and ramble on so please hear me out.
Last year and year before I worked very hard to try to be the best
dealer that Revolution had. I have dedicated
a website to the construction and sales of the Mini-500. I not only
sold more helicopters, I also got these birds in the air and flying. I
literally lived, eat, and slept Mini-500's. I had built a very firm
foundation for the next years sales. You then decided that the dealers
were not doing a good job and decided to take the incentives away for
the sales. $1000 for the sale of a Mini-500 does not make it worth the
effort to try to sell and support the Mini-500. You told me your self
that the biggest mistake you ever made was to have dealers. You wanted
to sell factroy direct. My personal opinion is that was
a big mistake. Around this time also the problems crept up. More and
More Mini's were flying and experiencing the same common problems.
Revolution decided to not support the customers for what ever reason I
do not know. I know you say that you were forced into the frame
solution. Your customers are your test pilots, if a problem persists
whether the
factory is experiencing it or not, it is not to be taken lightly.
Conduct tests, fly more, above all, listen to your customers.
At Ohskosh last year I watched you and Joe Rinke go at it with a
fevor. After it was over and you had asked Joe Rinke
to leave your area, you came over to a small group of us, and in your
usual calm manor told us not to even talk to Joe. You told us that if
we wanted to build a helicopter to do so just not use any of your
technology. Your words were "I don't have a problem with anyone
wanting to build their own helicopter as long as it does not infringe on
my work that I have spent so much time and money on research and
developement". I placed the add in several magazines looking for
engineers to build a
2 place. I am not an engineer, I decided to see what it would cost to
build a 2 place for myself and to market. It was very evident that you
and Joe Rinke would be involved in lawsuits and neither of you would
ever get to market by fighting in a court of law. My experiences with
lawyers is that the only ones that profit are the lawyers. Late in
December I received a call from BJ Schramm. He said he could very
easily design me a 2 place helicopter and that I would not need any
other engineers. I told him then that I was waitng to see what happened
in the next few months with Joe Rinke and Revoluotion. If Rinke or
Revolution built a 2 place then why would I even go to the expense.
Rinke swore at this time that he would be building a 2 place and
possibly bringing it to Sun and Fun.. Revolution at this time would not
even give me the time of day. I decided to cool it on the 2 place.
Now if Revolution and Rinke decided not to go ahead with a 2 place, I
was going to call BJ Schramm and meet with him sometime in Jan. 1998.
That never happened because of a lawsuite between Revolution and Rinke.
I halted on the add.
I told Laura when I invited her to the Meeting in Dallas, that if
Revolution was building a 2 place then tell me and I would not
go any further. I also told her that if had a 2 place under
construction and I was 50 percent done and Revolution announced theirs,
that I would stop. I do not wish to reeinvent the wheel. I, and many
others want a 2 place. I'm sure you know there is great market
potential for a 2 place.
Now somewhere Lee comes into play here. You seem to think that Lee
was working for me. You are out and out WRONG. Lee and I were
friends. We had an agreement, when he came to work on his helicopter,
we did not talk about Revolution, and I did not talk about what I was
doing. Lee was one of your best assets. He was loved by all of us. I
don't like the idea of him being fired but I too would of fired an
employee for the that type of email he supposedly sent. However no
matter what the content of his emial, he did not work for me, and never
has. I don't know what went on between
Revolution and Lee and it is none of my business. Where I do mind is
you believing and telling everyone untrue RUMORS.
First of all, why would I introduce a 2 place in a small room in
Dallas full of people that have already spent their money on a kit?
They already have a bad taste about homebuilts. Why would I want to
introduce it to such a small audience? I could do that on my website.
That meeting was not designed to bash Revolution and I made that
perfectly clear to Laura when I invited her to attend. What was
clearly heard from the meeting is that we love our Mini's but need
support and want the flexibility to do what we want to with our
Machines. I looked around that room and saw pepole from all walks of
life, Doctors, Engineers,
Professional Pilots, Computer engineers, Programmers, Business owners,
and all with one thing in common, a Mini-500 that is not flying to their
satisfaction or expectations. As you heard, no hidden agenda, no
announcing of a 2 place by Lee or myself, just concerned customers again
voicing their concerns and again Revolution not listening. Thus the
formation of a Builders association. A place to exchange ideas and
theories.
I do not wish to see you out of business or have any desire to put
you out of business as you seem to think. I can barely run the business
that I have, and I know what I am doing with this one. By putting you
out of business would only cut my own throat. If I was producing a 2
place how would that make me look? Where would all of that owns Mini's
but parts? You clearly don't trust me but take a look at this picture
here. I did not wear a listening device to our meeting. I don't record
peoples conversations with the factory. That does not help your
credibility one bit. You must trust people in order to have them trust
you. My wish is is to keep Revolution successfull but you are not
making it easy. If problems are solved I would like to be your best
sales force, and I can do it. The fact of the matter is, your dealers
and customers are your best sales force. I will be happy to start from
scratch.
You and I have to do a lot of soul searching to do and lately I have
done a lot. I am taking the first step in resolving the problem between
my self and Revolution. If successful then I hope to tackle the problem
with all of us and Revolution. I can pull the dealers back together
again we can all get back to having fun and making a little money too,
rather than all this bashing and finger pointing. Lets all play
together. Bottom line is the lawsuite between Rinke and Revolution will
result in no one winning but all losing. I would love some positive
things for my website. The whole world is watching to see what we do.
Lets ALL unite and work together. You and I being enemies solves
nothing and hurts everyone. I really did enjoy our past together but
the future looks bleak. Where do we go from here??? Have a little
trust.
Fred Stewart
Mid-American Helicopter Inc.
http://www.mini500.com
fste...@mini500.com
314-464-7534
Now Dennis can't say I changed this because a copy went to Kitplanes editor
Dave Martin.
Finally let me say that I am tired of fighting for the Mini-500 helicopter
and am tired of being Revolution's whipping post. I have let Dennis Fetters
slander me in his past posts, NO MORE. I have tried to stand up for all the
builders/owners for several years now. I have been cool and collected, but
that is the last time. I will not take any of your verbal abuse attacks ever
again without reciprocating. Ask any of my customers about the service I
gave them. You want to fight Dennis then lets fight. I would love to kick
you big stupid fat ass from here to kingdom come. There is not one person on
this newsgroup that has a Mini-500 that has a good thing to say about Dennis
Fetters, wonder why. If you really care about safety of the Mini-500 then
shut the fuck up about how everyone of us is trying to ruin your business. I
learned one thing in the Marine Corps, you can delegate authority but not
responsibility, and you are responsible for the SAFETY of every Mini-500
pilot out there. So take that responsibility and leave me out of it. If you
continue to do drag me into your pit of trash then I will have no recourse to
use some of your own tactics and some of mine. You won't like mine. You
have pushed me to the limit. I won't sue you, I WILL kick your ass if that
is what you want. Try me. Kansas City is not that far away. I could be
there when ever you want. Mention me one more time in your lies to this
newsgroup and I will take that to be a challenge to kick your ass. When it
is posted I will meet you anywhere you want, just you and I. I will drive
there, fly there, walk there, crawl there, but I will be there. I am ASHAMED
of myself for letting you go this far and attack my integritgy and
credibility. It stops today!! So have your meeting and hopefully someone
will let me know what goes on because I will not attend another one of his
waste of time meetings. I suggest you stay focused, stop wasting time
bashing all of your past customers and get on with your business.
I apologize to the newsgroup. I post very rarely, but I am pissed now.
Takes a lot to piss me off but none the less it has happened. A lot of ground
work has went into the setup of the meeting we had planned in Fla, and I
genuinely care about the safety of my fellow fliers.
Fred Stewart
Pissed off Mini-500 owner
RonPilotPI
As I've said before, I'm not a Mini-500 owner, so maybe I shouldn't comment on
this controversary between existing owners and the factory.
But.... I'm still a sales prospect, more for a Voyager than a Mini.So I
continue to observe and monitor the situation concerning the problems with the
ship. And I sure wish people would work together on the issues and move on. For
the good of everybody.
Builders Meeting first in Las Vegas, then Florida, and now Missouri at the
plant. All on the same day. Makes sense to have it at the plant, but when the
wind are blowing in February, I would rather be in Florida than Missouri.
Let's summarize the situation. Starting about 5 years ago. The amazing Mini is
announced, introduced, it flies, available for delivery, lots of enthusiasm,
lots of dealers, lots of PR, lots of orders, lots flying, lots of fun, some
problems, more problems, same problem over and over again, six fatal accidents
(some pilot error), finger-pointing, lots of ego to go around, finally an
admission of a serious problem, and now a "mandatory" fix.
We can't turn back the clock. We can't undo the accidents. We can't undo the
deaths. We can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
It's November 14, 1998. Time to go forward. Time to fix the problems, make the
ship better and safer to fly. Sell more Mini's. Sell the Voyager.
Can't Dennis, Fred, Joe, Zoomer, BWB, Ed, etc and everyone else involved bury
the hatchet and ego's, no matter who is right or wrong, lying or telling the
truth, and cooperate for the good of curent and future owners? Please?
Ron
mma...@my-dejanews.com
Mini- 500 owners. I hope everyone that owns one and everyone thinking of
buying one will take heed here. What you posted is right on target and if
Dennis doesn't get the message from this, he is hopeless. We as concerned
owners should take it on ourselves to contact as many owners as possible to
mount a stand here once and for all. I wonder how many ass-kissers will
attend his "Ofifcial Meeting"? I for one am tired of hopelessly searching
this news group for good news about the fixes for our crippled fleet. I
would like to get back to flying techniques and discussion about moving
ahead, instead of all the bitching that is going on. I would like to see
everyone who owns a Mini500 to post how they feel about this now so all
"would-be's" could get a mass comment in a two or three day span. Thanks
again, Fred. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. I'm with
you 100%.
Max Sherrell
MMAX...@AOL.COM
mma...@my-dejanews.com
Mini- 500 owners. I hope everyone that owns one and everyone thinking of
buying one will take heed here. What you posted is right on target and if
Dennis doesn't get the message from this, he is hopeless. We as concerned
owners should take it on ourselves to contact as many owners as possible to
mount a stand here once and for all. I wonder how many ass-kissers will
attend his "Ofifcial Meeting"? I for one am tired of hopelessly searching
this news group for good news about the fixes for our crippled fleet. I
would like to get back to flying techniques and discussion about moving
ahead, instead of all the bitching that is going on. I would like to see
everyone who owns a Mini500 to post how they feel about this now so all
"would-be's" could get a mass comment in a two or three day span. Thanks
again, Fred. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. I'm with
you 100%.
Max Sherrell
MMAX...@AOL.COM
>
> Now Dennis can't say I changed this because a copy went to Kitplanes editor
Ralph Raser
Sign me up.
Ralph
Kit #298
Canby, Oregon
.....>RHCI's Official Mini-500 Builder/Pilot's Safety Meeting
Ralph Raser
My feeling is that I'm going to stick with RHCI. They after all, supply the
parts needed to keep my machine flying. The have the resources to fix these
problems. Sure the product has had problems, name one that hasen't. My
biggest objection to Fred is his language. When he has to resort to name
calling and profanity to bolster his position, he looses credibility with
me.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
#298
fste...@mini500.com
to fix the problems, us the test pilots, but they never listened. What
position am I trying to bolster? I met you and your brother Bob at Dallas
and did I ever once speak at the Meeting, or to you about anything Dennis
Fetters accuses me of? Did you see a hidden agenda at the Meeting? I am so
sorry about the profanity, but I am tired of Fetters making all these
accusations that you guys know not to be true and then defend his actions.
He has called all of us names numerous times on this forum. I am sorry I
lost credibility with you, I guess if I acted like Dennis I would win your
credibility? I guess Laura wearing a wire tap and transmitting to Dennis in
the Hotel makes him credible. Out of all his posts where has he once
addressed the problems, only blame us. He called me a liar and a
conspirator, I am not going to take that anymore. I defended my country so I
could be free to exercise my Constitutional rights, such as to meet with
others (Do you call Dennis when you talk to other builders, for permission or
consent) and discuss issues. These so called cures Dennis has introduced is
nothing new to us. Norm told us how the belt tensioner at the Meeting
reduced the IPS from 8 to .8. I was at the Service Center meeting last
October and saw a demonstration on the mast support and the Belt tensioner.
It is my guess that he did not come out with it till now is that he hoped
none of us would remember that it was Joe that told Dennis how to do it in 97
at Oshkosh. I was there along with Gil Armbruster, John Haines, Bill
Bennett, Jeff Hearst, and I believe Ron Prince when Joe explained to Dennis
about the belt tensioner design. At that time Dennis jumped up and down and
screamed at Joe and used profanity in front of a large group of people. Why
do you think Dennis does not want us to get together? He can come, no he
wants to convince you all of this new hidden agenda. Someone else posted
about the ammdndment to the contract that will allow us to modify our
aircraft, why do you think only a few sent it back? If it was such a good
thing we all would have sent it back. It gives Dennis even more control over
our machines that I am unwilling to relinquish unless he wants to buy mine
back. It is mine period. You installed a Sync Elevator on your aircraft.
Just before it crashed because of an engine failure, (I believe) you were on
the verge of something new that could have helped us all. I personally know
of 2 other aircraft that have installed a Sync Elevator and are testing as we
speak. You said in front of the whole crowd in Dallas that you would not fly
with the Rotax again and I understand that you have a turbine. What kind of
support do you think you will get from the factory with a non RHCI turbine
installed in your machine? That is what the next meeting was about, people
sharing their ideas on what they have done. It is the only time we can get
together and share ideas without being poisoned with propaganda from RHCI.
Again I hope you will accept my apology for the profanity I used on my last
post. But also correct Dennis next time he comes to the group calling people
names and pointing fingers. If he spent as much time on his research as he
does on the net we would not be posting this information now. There are
tapes available of the whole Dallas meeting from a gentleman by the name of
Gerry Burgener for anyone that is interested in the real truth. He taped the
whole meeting. Why should we change our agenda for Dennis. Change his. If
he doesn't change his date, he must have some hidden agenda himself. I
assure everyone there is no hidden agenda. Again I am not speaking only
using my website as a focal point for data and getting the word out.
Fred Stewart
/In article <72k5dt$p...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
jims...@my-dejanews.com
You've signed up for a couple now. Reading Fred's post you can sure get the
drift of how frustrated he is. Give him a break--he's been nothing but
constructive in most of what he's said about the 500 and his relationship with
Dennis is quite well known. At least he's being honest about how he feels.
You act like RHCI has been jolly up front and on the cutting edge of all these
problems, hell,(sorry) at least he was trying to get something done, ---only
problem with Fred is the association with Campbell. Thats where he lost the
credibility.
I'd rather see a guy "blow" once in a while doing something, than listen to
those who's only participation is listening
Fred, I know what you said, but I still think it was a poor choice. Hope your
tongue heals now.
Jim
In article <72k5dt$p...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
"Ralph Raser" <Ralph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Ron,
>
> My feeling is that I'm going to stick with RHCI. They after all, supply the
> parts needed to keep my machine flying. The have the resources to fix these
> problems. Sure the product has had problems, name one that hasen't. My
> biggest objection to Fred is his language. When he has to resort to name
> calling and profanity to bolster his position, he looses credibility with
> me.
>
> Ralph
> Canby, Oregon
> #298
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ken Leander
I can see how you would try and support RHCI even when Fetters was going in
a direction that you felt was improper. That's called loyalty, one of the
most prized of human qualities. I can see how a person can be torn between
loyalty and doing what he feels is right. It can reach a point where that
person is 'ready to kick ass'. But we don't need any more injuries over
this particular helicopter. Besides, that wouldn't do anyone any good.
Don't let the past stop you from developing a safe 2-seat helicopter.
Forget Fetters. The public is pretty well informed of the situation with
him. Work with Rinke and stretch that turbine into a five blade 2-seat
model. Stop beating yourself up over RHCI and go onto making a little
history or your own. And do us all a favor, yank that Mini-500 flattering
crap off your website.
Finally, if you're going to work with Rinke, it's pretty obvious that he has
tendencies toward perfection. Perfection is a good trait for an engineer,
but cost restraints make some compromises necessary. There is a huge market
for a safe, LOW COST sports helicopter. I'm NOT one of those that think
'Experimental' is synonymous with 'Dangerous'. With attention to
engineering detail, 'Experimental' should mean 'Sidestepping government
nonsense'.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
Management Company
right on target. Anyone who continues to believe Fetters filth deserves
what he gets. These is truly no reason to be an uninformed mini buyer
(as I was) and sure as hell no reason to fly one. If you're flying
you're dying.
Joseph Berto #402
Fred wrote:
> Are you telling me that just because you post it, it is the truth? You have
> been lying to everyone for years. You sir are a liar. The only damage to
> RHCI has been done by you. I will now defend myself. The only conflict of
> interest I have with you is you don't give a damn whether we live or die as
> long as you get your blood money, I on the other hand have trouble sleeping
> at night because of the Mini-500's that I sold for you.
snip
You have intentionally avoided and
> slandered everyone you come in contact with. You don't seem to give a shit
> until someone else comes forward and decides to do something that you have
> not taken the initative to do.
snip
I am concerned with safety and making the
> Mini-500 safe and you are are concerned with getting the next check from the
> next unspecting shmuck.
snip
jims...@my-dejanews.com
In article <72khi0$l7t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
fste...@mini500.com
My wife already got on my butt this morning when she saw the posts. Her
words were "you IDIOT you could of used more tactful language". I definitely
mean what I say, but improper the way I said it. My tounge has definitely
healed now and I will NEVER again use profanity in the Newsgroup. Sorry, my
apologies to all on the group.
Fred Stewart
In article <72khi0$l7t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
jims...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
.
> Fred, I know what you said, but I still think it was a poor choice. Hope your
> tongue heals now.
>
> Jim
>
> In article <72k5dt$p...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Ralph Raser" <Ralph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Ron,
> >
> > My feeling is that I'm going to stick with RHCI. They after all, supply the
> > parts needed to keep my machine flying. The have the resources to fix these
> > problems. Sure the product has had problems, name one that hasen't. My
> > biggest objection to Fred is his language. When he has to resort to name
> > calling and profanity to bolster his position, he looses credibility with
> > me.
> >
> > Ralph
> > Canby, Oregon
> > #298
> >
> >
>
Ralph Raser
An owner has to support the company in my opinion. Sure Dennis has made
some mistakes but he is trying to improve his product. Have the results
been as fast as we had wished for? No. Do I agree with EVERYTHING Dennis
says? No! But he is making progress. And after all, he is the only game in
town for a Mini owner.
When Jim's (Fred's?) meeting was announced I was all for it. But when RHCI
announced their's.....well there seems to be no choice.
In my opinion people can disagree without being disagreeable Like I said
when one has to resort to name calling and profanity, his argument must be
weak.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Ralph Raser
I agree with almost everything you said. I know DF has made mistakes but
put yourself in my position. I have a helicopter that is worth nothing
unless I can get it flying and made to be reliable. DF manufactures parts
and had the expertise to make the product work. Sure he has made mistakes.
He never did agree with me on my engine failure. But I'm sure not going to
do anything to cause RHCI to go out of business. Don't get me wrong, I
don't think and have never thought that was your goal.
I don't think yelling at each other over this forum is going to change
anyone's personality if you get my drift.
I know I'm rambling....sorry.
I just hope we all can get together and solve our problems.
Sincerely,
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
jims...@my-dejanews.com
someone, bite your tonque. My father said-if you think it, say it. Always
wished I was Catholic so I could ask the guy in the box which is the better
way--blow up inside or outside. I think you tried the "other" way, gotta say
offensive or not you got the point across "pretty clear". Emotion noted.
Probably means you not going to get this "worked" out right away. Bummer.
Hollywood says the groups getting unfocused so back to the problem--How you
coming on that list? Thinking out loud-If Rinke had this solution in Aug of
97, why are people still complaining about frame cracks--or is this just a
lack of information sharing==thus the reason for the meeting? Or did the
suits slow down the advent of aftermarket fixes---a year and a halfs a long
time, to keep complaining if a fix has been accomplished. People have been
screaming about the cracks-to keep it so quiet seems odd. Have you talked to
Serrano and his view of this correction? He's always seemed diplomatic
(helps getting paid), but seems to tell the whole story when asked.
Still about three month to Feb--plenty of time for a few more calls. :)
In article <72l050$s4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
chu...@greatlakes.net
"Ralph Raser" <Ralph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Ron,
>
> My feeling is that I'm going to stick with RHCI. They after all, supply the
> parts needed to keep my machine flying.
> Canby, Oregon
> #298
RALPH , RALPH , RALPH Your NOT listening , You've been to Rinke's shop .
You know darn well Rinke can manufacture ANY part on that aircraft, and he
can do it with precision. Chuck vt
MMAXX5577
I can't believe you are saying this. I thought from talking to you that
you were a man who stood
on his own. All you seem to care about are your own assets. What about the
good of the whole group? Why have you chosen Dennis's camp? Has he offered
you free or discounted parts? Has he threatened to sue you over the sink
elevator or some other modification? If you are only concerned for your
losses, then you go ahead and just suck right up to him. You will hear the
same stories we have heard since the problems started appearing. I hope you
get what you are looking for and not what awaits you.
Max Sherrell
skid...@msn.com
evening.Looks like I'll have to say it here. ""I , BACK YOU 110 % or was
that 104%(110% is rotor over speed isn't it "been so long since flew mine,I
can't remember" I know it is in Robbie)"" As I've said before most of these
guys "DON"T KNOW THE REAL(sweet talking when conning this news group)(such a
gentleman, why haven't I noticed before)THE REAL DENNIS FETTERS!! Hopefully
Ralph & some of these people will never see the true side of him.I'll bet the
factory warrantied all most every one of Ralph's Bell 47 problems. Dennis &
RHCI must not have improved very much,as I notice one: Joseph Berto # 402
doesn't sound too happy.That's well into the BROVO #'S(must still be trouble
on the home front). I FEEL FOR THOSE PILOTS that are starting to build time
on their MINI-500 = AND THE VOYAGER - 500 IS USING 80% of the MINI-500
PARTS(read the propectus). Those parts aren't holding up with 1 pilot & 10
Gal.of fuel( I do not remember ever being able to lift off with full fuel),so
what is going to happen with double the work load?? Pilots = BE ADVISED =
Get all the info that is available & believe it or at least throughly check
it out. It's your butt! Ralph,How many hrs. did you have when you crashed
your MINI- 500?? Oh, Fred,I didn't think your language was so bad,I hear that
much & more every day on the streets of America,and those people aren't mad!!
If I don't talk to you soon then I'll see you at FANTASY OF FLIGHT on Feb.5
or 6 = KEEP UP THE IMPORTANT,GOOD WORK!! Do not let the detactors veir us off
course this time . We know what needs to be done,so let's go for it . We
can't force anyone to digest our info,We can only present it. I think I
remember you saying "Boy If I had only listen to you,George Schultz, & Don
Fairbanks at S & F 96(had to rub it in some more). T. Barum said: "There's a
sucker born every day!" & If we do not do what we know is right,then he will
continue to reel them in like blind sheep !
Ed Randolph Ser.# 005
fste...@mini500.com wrote:
> Hi Jim
> My wife already got on my butt this morning when she saw the posts. Her
> words were "you IDIOT you could of used more tactful language". I definitely
> mean what I say, but improper the way I said it. My tounge has definitely
> healed now and I will NEVER again use profanity in the Newsgroup. Sorry, my
> apologies to all on the group.
>
> Fred Stewart
>
> In article <72khi0$l7t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> jims...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> .
> > Fred, I know what you said, but I still think it was a poor choice. Hope
your
> > tongue heals now.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > In article <72k5dt$p...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "Ralph Raser" <Ralph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > Ron,
> > >
> > > My feeling is that I'm going to stick with RHCI. They after all, supply
the
> > > parts needed to keep my machine flying. The have the resources to fix
these
> > > problems. Sure the product has had problems, name one that hasen't. My
> > > biggest objection to Fred is his language. When he has to resort to name
> > > calling and profanity to bolster his position, he looses credibility with
> > > me.
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > > Canby, Oregon
> > > #298
> > >
> > >
> >
Badwater Bill
Boy! I have to agree with Ken on this. I get butterflies when I
think of a 2-place turbine experimental. I think the market is huge
for such a machine. I hope Rinke or Fred and Joe develop one. There
are enough customers on this planet that DF and his competition can
make plenty of money. In fact I think the more sources for such
ships, the more advertising and the more exposure eveyone gets.
Competition is healthy for all of us.
BWB
>Don't let the past stop you from developing a safe 2-seat helicopter.
>Forget Fetters. The public is pretty well informed of the situation with
>him. Work with Rinke and stretch that turbine into a five blade 2-seat
>model. Stop beating yourself up over RHCI and go onto making a little
>history or your own. And do us all a favor, yank that Mini-500 flattering
>crap off your website.
>
>Ken Leander
>Austin, Texas
>
Badwater Bill
Joe: Would you do us all a favor and repost that article you wrote
about all the problems you had? I think it was excellent but I can't
find it anywhere. As I become more knowledgable about helicopters
many things that were said a few months ago have new meaning. Your
post seemed excellent at the time but I didn't understand a lot of it.
Thanks,
Badwater Bill
Badwater Bill
Oh Oh Fred! You better hope Miss Geeter didin't see that post.
She'll ring your head around by pinching your ear!
I'm not going to tell her that you got so mad you used naughty words.
Let's just all hope that see doesn't get informed by somebody who
wants some revenge toward you.
You better say your prayers tonight because no matter who you are or
where you go in life, Miss Geeter can always still get you!!!!
Badwater Bill ;-)
Ralph Raser
I'll try to respond point by point. First of all my Bell 47 G3B2a was 20
years old when I brought it. Factory support? Hah! In my opinion Bell
wishes all -47's would disappear. The machine was expensive to operate.
Probably at that time (mid 70's) there were at least $150/hour of throw away
parts. That doesn't count fuel, insurance, advertising, pilot wages and so
fourth. Don't tell me that the factory supported me.
How many hours did I have on my Mini? The hour meter shows 47.7 today. Not
very many for two engine failures. I've not supported the Rotax 582 since
my first seizure. But it WAS all I had so I attempted to make it run
safely. I can't convince Dennis but in my opinion the problems I had were
due to a too cold thermostat. That's another story.
But just because I can't convince Dennis that the engine has problems as
it's installed doesn't mean his ideas and efforts are worthless. Sure his
demeanor is somewhat abrasive. Others here also suffer from that trait.
The main reason I support RHCI is that until I sell my machine, I need RHCI
to be in business. But, I have no intentions of selling my Mini. Just wait
until you hear the turbine 'spool up'. <G>
As far as language, my experience as a SYSOP on CompuServe was that those
who had to resort to name calling and profanity usually had a weak argument.
Maybe that's not the case here but it does nothing to instill confidence.
Sorry for my rambling.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Ralph Raser
That's correct. Joe has a nice shop available to him. I respect Joe and
the efforts he had made to make the Mini safer and more enjoyable to fly.
That doesn't mean we should abandon RHCI. There is enough business out
there for everyone.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Ralph Raser
I'm not taking Dennis' side. I'm not taking anyone's side. I just don't
think it does any good to yell at each other over this forum
I do think that DF is attempting to make the Mini safe and reliable. Not as
fast as some of us wished but he is making an attempt. Do you have proof
otherwise.
DF suing me? Not that I know of. And it's 'sync' as in synchronous
elevator.
I'm not 'sucking' up to anyone. I have not talked to anyone at RHCI, except
to order parts, since Sun-n-Fun.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Ken Leander
<snip>
>I do think that DF is attempting to make the Mini safe and reliable.
This is the point of contention! Many feel otherwise. It is in your best
interest to investigate why they feel that way.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
jims...@my-dejanews.com
again made my point, if his reply isn't "BIASED" I think your kidding
yourself. Hope you can stay ontrack, whereever you meet, but there's no way
were going to get "unbiased reporting". He just ate the bait--hook, line,
and sinker--all journalistic credibility up in flames on open net. Hollywood
please take note- thats why it gets disscussed.
And don't forget to call Ed back, maybe a call to Dave Martin too so the
world would get some honest reporting. Nevermind, I'll call him-you can't do
it all.
Hey Jimmy, Checkmate!
In article <72lp79$kch$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > Hi Jim
> > My wife already got on my butt this morning when she saw the posts. Her
> > words were "you IDIOT you could of used more tactful language". I
definitely
> > mean what I say, but improper the way I said it. My tounge has definitely
> > healed now and I will NEVER again use profanity in the Newsgroup. Sorry, my
> > apologies to all on the group.
> >
> > Fred Stewart
> >
> > In article <72khi0$l7t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > jims...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > .
> > > Fred, I know what you said, but I still think it was a poor choice. Hope
> your
> > > tongue heals now.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > In article <72k5dt$p...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
> > > "Ralph Raser" <Ralph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > > Ron,
> > > >
> > > > My feeling is that I'm going to stick with RHCI. They after all, supply
> the
> > > > parts needed to keep my machine flying. The have the resources to fix
> these
> > > > problems. Sure the product has had problems, name one that hasen't. My
> > > > biggest objection to Fred is his language. When he has to resort to
name
Ralph Raser
I know why 'they' feel that way. They're disappointed I am too but I've
learned over the years to temper my disappointment with realism The only
way to make the Mini-500 safe and reliable is with the cooperation of the
manufacture. You're (I don't mean you personally) not going to get
cooperation by name calling and using profanity.
Sincerly,
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Brian Herdeg
As I told BWB privately in email a few weeks ago. I see
Joe Rinke in a white hat, and Dennis in a black hat.
Without the first builders meeting you hosted, the truth
would never have been told (that the Mini-500 was broken).
Dennis was (and certainly still is) waging a campaign of
mis-information about Mini-500 failures. Only the first
meeting allowed everybody to get together and compare notes.
Now, everybody has spent a year thinking about how to fix
these problems, and tinkering here or there. It is time
to share the solutions found - and Dennis is not suddenly
the answer.
Actually, as I posted a long time ago when I first discovered
that Dennis had stopped Joe Rinke from selling fixes which
actually fixed the Mini-500 problems - I will not buy a
Mini-500 (or anything! from Dennis):
http://x4.dejanews.com/=dnt_mn/getdoc.xp?AN=330827730&CONTEXT=911169614.1703739471&hitnum=34
I also was worried a few week later that Dennis, by limiting Joe
Rinke's ability to offer a fix for the Mini-500 flaws, would in
some ways (by honor at least) be responsible for future deaths.
http://x4.dejanews.com/=dnt_mn/getdoc.xp?AN=344734033&CONTEXT=911169614.1703739471&hitnum=26
An open meeting, without Dennis's "orchestrations" is a requirement
for truth. Dennis spent the last 13 months "verifiying" the fixes
provided to him by others (and how many died during that "evaluation"
time period?). I do not wish to see further smoke and mirrors
delay fixes, or delay saving lives.
On a personal note, I cannot afford a Rotorway Exec 162F at this
point in time, and had hoped to by a Mini-500. Obviously I am now
saving for the Exec, while still hoping somebody will buy Dennis out
and fix Revolution Helicopter Corp.
Brian Herdeg
My actual quote then
was:
fste...@mini500.com wrote:
>
> In article <72iff9$27f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> dfet...@unicom.net wrote:
> > Revolution Helicopter News Release..........
> >
> > RHCI’s Official Mini-500 Builder/Pilot’s Safety Meeting
> >
> > Dear Mini-500 owners and Newsgroup participants,
> >
> > US Aviator magazine and some other Mini-500 detractors have taken it upon
> > themselves to schedule a meeting involving our Mini-500 owners and potential
> > customers. This is being done without the consent or permission of Revolution
> > Helicopter Corp. (RHCI), and we don’t appreciate their interference in our
> > business.
>
> Excuse me, I didn't know WE had to have your permission. There are EAA
> chapters and aviation clubs all over the world and I don't know of one that
> has to have the parts manufacturers permission to get together for an
> exchange of ideas. You sir do not own our helicopters and have no right to
> tell us when we can and can't get together. Remember in your contract you
> are a provider of parts only, you do not provide a helicopter. Remember you
> accept no responsibility for the kit provided to us. You could have come to
> our meeting, but there you can't have control and spew forth your lies and
> propaganda and blame everyone else for your ignorance. Just like the meeting
> in Dallas, I had no plans to speak, only a focal point for owners/builders to
> bitch.
>
> >The editor of US Aviator and the other people involved with this
> > meeting tried to damage RHCI by holding a similar meeting last year in
> > Dallas, Texas. Recently they have been posting false statements about
> RHCI,
> > the safety of the Mini-500 and my personal character on the internet. These
> > are the last people who could have a fair and impartial meeting, especially
> > with their obvious conflicts of interests, which were explained to the
> > newsgroups in my three part report not long ago.
>
> Are you telling me that just because you post it, it is the truth? You have
> been lying to everyone for years. You sir are a liar. The only damage to
> RHCI has been done by you. I will now defend myself. The only conflict of
> interest I have with you is you don't give a damn whether we live or die as
> long as you get your blood money, I on the other hand have trouble sleeping
> at night because of the Mini-500's that I sold for you. I ask for ONE person
> that attended the Dallas meeting to step up and explain the hidden agenda. I
> ask for ONE person, just ONE person that attended the Dallas meeting to step
> up and explain to the newsgroup when I spoke. Did anyone hear me address the
> group except when you were next door by yourself and I asked everyone to at
> least go next door and hear what you have to say?
>
> >
> > We decided to schedule our February meeting for the following reasons:
> >
> > 1. Mini-500 issues are our business, and we should always be the one to
> > deal with them.
>
> Then where in the fuck have you been!!!!! You have intentionally avoided and
> slandered everyone you come in contact with. You don't seem to give a shit
> until someone else comes forward and decides to do something that you have
> not taken the initative to do. You decided to schedule your meeting in Feb
> because you don't have the guts to attend ours and you cannot stand the fact
> that we are trying to do something to your bundle of parts you sold.
>
> > 3. The previous meeting in Dallas provided no fixes for any technical
> > problems concerning the Mini-500. After reading the latest article published
> > by US Aviator, we see the same kind of meeting happening again. At the end of
> > the US Aviator article you’ll see telephone numbers for Jim Campbell and Fred
> > Stewart, both with conflicting interests as we reported on in the earlier
> > posting previously mentioned. If our customers go to the expense of travel,
> > we want to make sure they get the information they’re coming for.
>
> You are right, the first step was to get everyone together to find out the
> real problems since you and Laura told everyone of us that you wern't having
> those problems, when indeed you were, LIAR. As far as the conflict of
> interest, you are right again. I am concerned with safety and making the
> Mini-500 safe and you are are concerned with getting the next check from the
> next unspecting shmuck.
>
> >
> > 4. RHCI now has the modifications for the Mini-500 that will provide the
> > owners with what they’ll need. The meeting planned by the US Aviator group
> > will not provide technical solutions, but only share ideas, which is no
> > longer a point since RHCI has already developed the modifications.
> >
>
> What took YOU so long? 4 years is a long time to wait for fixes. At the
> service center meeting last October (1997) you addressed the group of Service
> Center Reps and told us of the belt tensioner and the mast support. This is
> not new news to any of the Service Reps that were present. You said then
> that was the almighty cure. Lets see that was 13 months ago. Present at the
> Service Center Meeting was Bill Bennett, John Haines, Fred Pitcher, Joe
> Green, Max Sherrill, and myself. Nothing came out of that meeting, except
> more propaganda and lies. Of course when Max posted about this meeting all
> you had to say is that he was lucky to have been invited. You never addressed
> the issues. I along with Gil Armbruster, Bill Bennett, John Haines, Ron
> Prince, Jeff Hearst, Pete Connors (one of you ex-employees), heard every word
> that Joe Rinke had to say about the belt tensioner that Joe developed (now
> your tensioner) http://www.rinke-aerospace.com/fyi.htm It was a bad idea
> then but now it is the cure, you THIEF.
>
> > 6. Open forum meeting. At the end of the technical and safety segments of
> > the event, RHCI will open the floor for any matter that someone would wish to
> > discuss. We’ll answer any question we can, and listen to any recommendations
> > someone may have.
>
> I have been to you so called open forum meetings. You have never listened to
> one recommendation that anyone of us has ever talked to you about. You shut
> up anyone that opposes your view. You have never listened to a
> recommendation in your life. That is why this problem has been going on
> since 1995.
>
> >RHCI has the entire mailing list of all Mini-500 owners, and we are sending
> >them all a notice of our meeting, and a copy of our report that was posted
> >not long ago about what the real story behind the US Aviator meeting is. They
> >will see the proof that the meeting planed in Florida is full of hidden
> >agendas, and why.
>
> What hidden agenda? I am still trying to figure out the last hidden agenda.
> Can someone explain this to me.
>
> > Now, if Jim Campbell and Fred Stewart only want a meeting to find fixes and
> > have a safety seminar for the Mini-500, then they should cancel their meeting
> > and encourage everyone to attend ours, because we now have the modification
> > they were hoping to come up with, and we have all the Mini-500 accidents
> > listed here to look at for a safety seminar. If they still try and have their
> > meeting, or change their date, then it’s obvious that they have other
> > intents. Let’s see what they do.
>
> Knock your self out. I am so sick of trying to make a wrong right, but with
> assholes like you out there with no conscious, it is in vain. I do encourage
> everyone to attend your meeting. You ask us to change our date or cancel or
> it is obvious that we have other intents. Lets see, we can't change our date
> or have our meeting as planned. Not many options left for us is there.
> Guess we can't have our meeting at all. Not a free country. You win.
>
> The following is a letter I sent to Dennis Fetters (and a copy to Dave Martin
> from Kitplanes) on March 9 1998 after the Dallas Meeting. The only response
> I received from RHCI was a nasty registerd letter canceling my dealership
> (thank you) and telling me not to represent myself as a dealer at all. I
> sent this letter at the suggestion of Dave Martin to try to patch things up
> between Dennis and all of us.
>
> Subject:
> mini 500
> Date:
> Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:03:09 -0600
> From:
> Fred Stewart <fste...@mini500.com>
> Organization:
> XYQUAD INC.
> To:
> la...@revolutionhelicopter.com
> CC:
> da...@kitplanes.com
>
> Hi Dennis
> I had a conversation with Dave Martin from Kitplanes Magazine early
> last week and he suggested that we try to come to terms. I don't want
> to see this letter or any part of it on the internet or anywhere else.
> What is said in the letter is between you and I, no one else.
> I hope that now that the dust has settled from the meeting in Dallas
> that you realize that there was no hidden agenda in the Meeting. You
> were expecting something to happen at the meeting that never took
> place. You seem to be blaming myself and others for the position of
> Revolution Helicopter at the moment. I would like to back up a little
> and ramble on so please hear me out.
> Last year and year before I worked very hard to try to be the best
> dealer that Revolution had. I have dedicated
> a website to the construction and sales of the Mini-500. I not only
> sold more helicopters, I also got these birds in the air and flying. I
> literally lived, eat, and slept Mini-500's. I had built a very firm
> foundation for the next years sales. You then decided that the dealers
> were not doing a good job and decided to take the incentives away for
> the sales. $1000 for the sale of a Mini-500 does not make it worth the
> effort to try to sell and support the Mini-500. You told me your self
> that the biggest mistake you ever made was to have dealers. You wanted
> to sell factroy direct. My personal opinion is that was
> a big mistake. Around this time also the problems crept up. More and
> More Mini's were flying and experiencing the same common problems.
> Revolution decided to not support the customers for what ever reason I
> do not know. I know you say that you were forced into the frame
> solution. Your customers are your test pilots, if a problem persists
> whether the
> factory is experiencing it or not, it is not to be taken lightly.
> Conduct tests, fly more, above all, listen to your customers.
> At Ohskosh last year I watched you and Joe Rinke go at it with a
> fevor. After it was over and you had asked Joe Rinke
> to leave your area, you came over to a small group of us, and in your
> usual calm manor told us not to even talk to Joe. You told us that if
> we wanted to build a helicopter to do so just not use any of your
> technology. Your words were "I don't have a problem with anyone
> wanting to build their own helicopter as long as it does not infringe on
> my work that I have spent so much time and money on research and
> developement". I placed the add in several magazines looking for
> engineers to build a
> 2 place. I am not an engineer, I decided to see what it would cost to
> build a 2 place for myself and to market. It was very evident that you
> and Joe Rinke would be involved in lawsuits and neither of you would
> ever get to market by fighting in a court of law. My experiences with
> lawyers is that the only ones that profit are the lawyers. Late in
> December I received a call from BJ Schramm. He said he could very
> easily design me a 2 place helicopter and that I would not need any
> other engineers. I told him then that I was waitng to see what happened
> in the next few months with Joe Rinke and Revoluotion. If Rinke or
> Revolution built a 2 place then why would I even go to the expense.
> Rinke swore at this time that he would be building a 2 place and
> possibly bringing it to Sun and Fun.. Revolution at this time would not
> even give me the time of day. I decided to cool it on the 2 place.
> Now if Revolution and Rinke decided not to go ahead with a 2 place, I
> was going to call BJ Schramm and meet with him sometime in Jan. 1998.
> That never happened because of a lawsuite between Revolution and Rinke.
> I halted on the add.
> I told Laura when I invited her to the Meeting in Dallas, that if
> Revolution was building a 2 place then tell me and I would not
> go any further. I also told her that if had a 2 place under
> construction and I was 50 percent done and Revolution announced theirs,
> that I would stop. I do not wish to reeinvent the wheel. I, and many
> others want a 2 place. I'm sure you know there is great market
> potential for a 2 place.
> Now somewhere Lee comes into play here. You seem to think that Lee
> was working for me. You are out and out WRONG. Lee and I were
> friends. We had an agreement, when he came to work on his helicopter,
> we did not talk about Revolution, and I did not talk about what I was
> doing. Lee was one of your best assets. He was loved by all of us. I
> don't like the idea of him being fired but I too would of fired an
> employee for the that type of email he supposedly sent. However no
> matter what the content of his emial, he did not work for me, and never
> has. I don't know what went on between
> Revolution and Lee and it is none of my business. Where I do mind is
> you believing and telling everyone untrue RUMORS.
> First of all, why would I introduce a 2 place in a small room in
> Dallas full of people that have already spent their money on a kit?
> They already have a bad taste about homebuilts. Why would I want to
> introduce it to such a small audience? I could do that on my website.
> That meeting was not designed to bash Revolution and I made that
> perfectly clear to Laura when I invited her to attend. What was
> clearly heard from the meeting is that we love our Mini's but need
> support and want the flexibility to do what we want to with our
> Machines. I looked around that room and saw pepole from all walks of
> life, Doctors, Engineers,
> Professional Pilots, Computer engineers, Programmers, Business owners,
> and all with one thing in common, a Mini-500 that is not flying to their
> satisfaction or expectations. As you heard, no hidden agenda, no
> announcing of a 2 place by Lee or myself, just concerned customers again
> voicing their concerns and again Revolution not listening. Thus the
> formation of a Builders association. A place to exchange ideas and
> theories.
> I do not wish to see you out of business or have any desire to put
> you out of business as you seem to think. I can barely run the business
> that I have, and I know what I am doing with this one. By putting you
> out of business would only cut my own throat. If I was producing a 2
> place how would that make me look? Where would all of that owns Mini's
> but parts? You clearly don't trust me but take a look at this picture
> here. I did not wear a listening device to our meeting. I don't record
> peoples conversations with the factory. That does not help your
> credibility one bit. You must trust people in order to have them trust
> you. My wish is is to keep Revolution successfull but you are not
> making it easy. If problems are solved I would like to be your best
> sales force, and I can do it. The fact of the matter is, your dealers
> and customers are your best sales force. I will be happy to start from
> scratch.
> You and I have to do a lot of soul searching to do and lately I have
> done a lot. I am taking the first step in resolving the problem between
> my self and Revolution. If successful then I hope to tackle the problem
> with all of us and Revolution. I can pull the dealers back together
> again we can all get back to having fun and making a little money too,
> rather than all this bashing and finger pointing. Lets all play
> together. Bottom line is the lawsuite between Rinke and Revolution will
> result in no one winning but all losing. I would love some positive
> things for my website. The whole world is watching to see what we do.
> Lets ALL unite and work together. You and I being enemies solves
> nothing and hurts everyone. I really did enjoy our past together but
> the future looks bleak. Where do we go from here??? Have a little
> trust.
>
> Fred Stewart
> Mid-American Helicopter Inc.
> http://www.mini500.com
> fste...@mini500.com
> 314-464-7534
Ken Leander
I suspect you are aware of the multiple levels of consciousness id (child),
ego (emotional), and superego (intellectual). The discussions about safety
of the Mini-500 should be left at the intellectual level, but it is entirely
human for it to drift into the emotional level with profanity. That doesn't
mean the reasons for doing so are invalid, just that they are not being
communicated in a method that can be easily understood. I have seen
wonderful men swear like drunken sailors when threatened. That doesn't
diminish their worth to me. I understand it, usually. It doesn't mean much
to me, except that I have to wait for them to calm down before I can learn
why they feel threatened. Unfortunately, after they have calmed down they
usually decide they have damaged their credibility and will not explain the
reasons for their rage. Therefor, it is best not to condemn that rage or
you will not learn the cause or reasons for it.
When some people come to the realization that Dennis Fetters has compromised
their safety for his own business interest, they are going to be emotional
about that. And, they might not make sense to you unless you understand the
cause of the digression to the emotional level. Emotional arguments are
often incoherent. But, not necessarily invalid.
As to your statement:
>The only way to make the Mini-500 safe and reliable
>is with the cooperation of the manufacture.
This depends on whether the manufacturer is facilitating or impeding
progress toward safety. On this critical point, it would be better to
discuss the facts intellectually and dispassionately. It would really help
a lot if the manufacturer himself could manage to do that.
Many owners have given up on the manufacturer and consider him an impediment
to progress toward safety. From a personal perspective, I would agree. One
of my former employees was a technical sergeant at Bergstrom AFB here in
Austin, Texas. He worked on the type of turbine that Joe Rinke developed as
an alternative powerplant for the Mini-500. I have seen this engine and had
conversations with my former employee about it. It is extremely reliable,
almost vibration free, lightweight, powerful and is designed to generate
electricity at variable loads with a constant speed. These characteristics
are precisely the requirements of the Mini-500. Fetters didn't want
competition so he crushed this superior engine alternative to his screaming
582. He deliberately compromised the safety of his customers for his own
business interests. Dozens of people on this newsgroup voiced strong
opposition to that. We were ignored.
Since then we have learned of many suggested fixes made by Rinke that have
been ignored by Fetters. Vibration problems ( of which frame cracking is
just an indicator) seem to have been ignored by Fetters, when these problems
could be so easily identified and fixed.
There is more, but I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already
know. It all comes down to the standards you hold a manufacturer to. I
expect better than that. No, I demand better than that.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
Ralph Raser wrote in message <72nc1q$h...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
skid...@msn.com
"Ralph Raser" <Ralph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I'll try to respond point by point. First of all my Bell 47 G3B2a was 20
> years old when I brought it. Factory support? Hah! In my opinion Bell
> wishes all -47's would disappear. The machine was expensive to operate.
> Probably at that time (mid 70's) there were at least $150/hour of throw away
> parts. That doesn't count fuel, insurance, advertising, pilot wages and so
> fourth. Don't tell me that the factory supported me.
>
the info I can collect=How other aircraft manufacturers handle problems with
customers. I'm relatively new to aviation market place. Bought a used Rotorway
Exec.(still have it in my shop growing cobwebs)& the MINI 500 (do not like it
sitting there beside R/W Exec growing cobwebs,but as I've stated before "it
will stay grounded until I can make it safe to fly W/RHCI or W/O
RHCI)
> How many hours did I have on my Mini? The hour meter shows 47.7 today. Not
> very many for two engine failures. I've not supported the Rotax 582 since
> my first seizure. But it WAS all I had so I attempted to make it run
> safely. I can't convince Dennis but in my opinion the problems I had were
> due to a too cold thermostat. That's another story.
>
your record I'm collecting. Trying to gather as much info about M-500 problems
& their redundancy as is possible so as to document this info & pass it on to
owners now & in the future(or potential owners looking for a honest history of
this
aircraft.)
> But just because I can't convince Dennis that the engine has problems as
> it's installed doesn't mean his ideas and efforts are worthless. Sure his
> demeanor is somewhat abrasive. Others here also suffer from that trait.
>
But, not to the extent of Mr. Fetters!! You might as well talk to a wall
as try to change Dennis's mind about anything(experience speaking here)as he
thinks he is the only human being that ever designed a helicopter!! I don't
know what Mr.Robinson, Enstrom, Hiller, Bell, or Sikorsky invented or
improved,I think they were called helicopters!
The main reason I support RHCI is that until I sell my machine, I need RHCI
> to be in business. But, I have no intentions of selling my Mini. Just wait
> until you hear the turbine 'spool up'. <G>
>
A friend of mine,that is in the manufacturing business looked my M-500 over
and state to me:" There is nothing on that machine that I can't make or obtain
locally,except the blades!" And I'm trying to contact a gentleman in Penn.,who
supposedly makes an impressive set of extruded alum. blades(straight=with no
BANANA Hook in them). I made a trip to Joe's shop = looks impressive but
awfully noisy( hard on this old mans ears as I didn't on headset or earmuffs).
> As far as language, my experience as a SYSOP on CompuServe was that those
> who had to resort to name calling and profanity usually had a weak argument.
> Maybe that's not the case here but it does nothing to instill confidence.
AS far as language, In my experience,I have heard very educated &
intelligent men resort to profanity & name calling (some of the names I still
do not know what they mean)when their feathers were ruffaled. Sorry for all
the rambling also = just trying to cover all points. Ed 005
> Sorry for my rambling.
>
> Ralph
> Canby, Oregon
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
fste...@mini500.com
afternoon with Allen Barklage's brothers Larry and Richard and Allens wife
Chris at a tribute to Allen at Million Air's hanger. It was packed. It was
very emotional. There was a video of Allens life from childhood, through out
Viet Nam, till the last person he saved in the Mississippi River just one
month before he was killed in his Mini. I almost had to leave the room
because I could not hold back the tears and emotions that welled up in me. I
loved him as much as any man could love another man. He was the finest human
being that I have ever had the pleasure to know and call friend. The
abrasive post that I posted Friday was something he would not have approved
of, and again I am very sorry. Thanks Gil Armbruster, for the conversation
we had this morning. I will try to approach this in a more mature manner
from now on. Gil is the only one that I can honestly say that has kept on
track and I will try to be more like that. I really care about the welfare
of all the pilots flying and building the Mini. It is my goal to make the
Mini-500 as safe as possible. I am committed to this project of safety with
or without RHCI's blessing or approval as I will keep one of my Mini's to fly
and the other one is already committed to another individual. However I will
not fly it in its current configuration. I assume I can modify my Mini any
way I see fit, since Laura Fetters said in our meeting in Dallas that they
would not sue anyone that modified their Mini for personal use(Kitplanes
editor was there and heard that). Is that what everybody else understood? As
Dennis posted in his past post not many people returned his contract
amendment for obvious reasons. I want to install a turbine and intend on
doing so. Hopefully where ever and whenever we meet we can discuss this
option. I would like to set the record straight, there was no hidden agenda
in Dallas and there was to be no hidden agenda in Fla. Many mods have been
made to various ships since Feb. and was hoping to share these mods in Fla.
There is the turbine, sync elevator, belt tensioner, shock mounting the
transmission, bearing updates, and many more. I know a lot of you have a
problem with Jim Campbell, I do not. Every conversation I have had with him
has always been pleasant. He never speaks badly of Dennis, and it is my
opinion that he is sincerely out to help us with our problems. If it helps
him sell his magazine that so be it. He has went to a lot of work to set up
a meeting in Fla. Not a lot of people realize the amount of work it takes
to get the word out and organize a meeting of this nature and magnitude that
will appeal to everyone. I can't tell you all how many hours a day I spend
on the phone and behind my keyboard. Jim stepped forward to help us when
there has been no helping hands till now. Everything we try do gets thrown
back in our face and distorted. Next I have been asked by several people if
Joe Rinke and I are partners. If we were, I would have a turbine NOW. Allen
Barklage would be still alive today. I sponsored Allen's helicopter from the
start for him to do the Air shows in our area. I bought his parts, I would
have bought the turbine and installed it in his aircraft. I would be selling
turbines. I am not. I am not developing a 2 place aircraft. Like I
promised RHCI last Feb, that if they were committed to a 2 place I would stop
looking into the issue. They told me they were, and I stopped testing the
waters. That is as far as it went. The only 2 place that I have interest in
is my RAF 2000. You can see the letter I wrote to RHCI in March that I
posted on Friday. I wish Joe or someone WOULD develop a 2 place. I still
plan on going to Fla on Feb 6th even if I am the only one there. I will have
a good time. In the next few days I will post on a special area on my web
page http://www.mini500.com a list of the confirmed attendee's and speakers.
I will also be displaying kit number 000 through the current kit and the data
that is given to me by the owners on my page for all to see. Please send me
data on your kit good or bad I don't care as long as it is valid data. It is
important for us all to work together and solve these problems. At the
moment Don Fairbanks (makes the videos from Sporty's on "How to fly
Helicopters") has said that he will help moderate the meeting and speak as
well. Thanks Don. Lets do as Gil says and try to put our differences aside
and move on. On one last note, Badwater Bill where have you been? I haven't
had anything interesting to read this weekend. I love it when you stir up
shi.... OOPS poo poo.
Sincerely
Fred Stewart
http://www.mini500.com
non profanity user (on the newsgroup)
Ralph Raser
As I said previously, I agree with much of what you say. My objection was
HOW you said it. Thanks for the clear, concise, professionally written
message here.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
<fste...@mini500.com> wrote in message
news:72o6a9$fj6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
Ralph Raser
I don't disagree with anything you say. Both sides have made serious
mistakes. It's a shame.
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Ken Leander <lea...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:72np49$h78$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
MMAXX5577
safety at this point. We need an alternative to having to trust the
"manufacturer" considering his track record here. He has avoided the truth any
time a critical issue of safety or dependability has pointed to his alledged
design. So why do these supposedly intelligent people want so bad to believe
him now? I just hope the ones gulable enough to attend his meeting don't end
up with sad singing and slow marching from believing the propaganda he spews.
Keep up the intelligent post!!!!!!
Max Sherrell
Badwater Bill
Very interesting. You sound like a guy who has some history in this
this thing. Many of you openly state that Fetters ignored actual
engineering fixes made by people with kits in the field. Other than
Rinke what were these, who made them and how were they presented and
rejected by RHCI? I'm just trying to learn something here, not be
confrontational. With the overwhelming number of posts by people who
are genuinely angry with RHCI it is difficult for me to believe that
there have not been serious communication problems. I'd just like to
know the details.
Badwater Bill
Ken Leander
Let's start with the basics first. You're assuming that Fetters engineered
the Mini-500. I don't see much evidence of that. The two engineering
firms mentioned in the RHCI contract in the hold harmless clause probably
did all the engineering number crunching on the Mini-500 design. One of the
firms specializes in building construction (static structures) and the other
specializes in automotive drive train engineering (race cars). I have no
reason to believe that an aeronautical engineering firm was ever hired to
look at the Mini-500 design.
You see, helicopters are like bells hanging on a string. Vibrations from
the rotor, motor, and tail rotor all have no place to go but to ring
throughout the structure. A helicopter isn't like a snowmobile that dampens
it's vibrations in the snow, or a race car with it's monstrous engine and
heavy frame dampening it's vibrations in the ground, or even a jet ski
dampening it's vibrations in the water. The air just doesn't absorb much
energy. So, strict attention to vibrations has to be observed in helicopter
engineering. What kind of engineer would hard mount the transmission
directly to the frame? The Fetters kind. Take a look at the Liberty Bell
in Philadelphia, and you'll get an idea of what undampened vibrations can
do. Frames crack, TBO's are reached far too soon, nuts loosen, control
rods snap... the list is endless.
So who came to the rescue of the ailing Mini-500? Ironically, it was the
guy you're pissed off with, Joe Rinke. Joe was just a kit owner like
everyone else. But, he also does military parts work as his business. He
stated that he had three emergencies and then used his equipment to fix the
Mini-500. He put the Mini-500 upon a vibration analyzing stand and
isolated the vibrations of several components. He figured out fixes and
then the biggest and most important fix of all he found a more reliable
powerplant, the gas turbine used by the military for electrical power
generation. But, Rinke didn't patent these fixes and offer to sell them to
Fetters, he gave them away for free. That's top drawer stuff in my book.
What did Rinke get for all his trouble? He got one psychotic paranoid
reaction from Fetters, that's what he got. Fetters took Rinke to court and
exercised that god-awful contract of his to the max. Rinke couldn't
demonstrate, fly or even talk about his modifications. Read your contract,
you can't discuss or share the construction manual on any component of your
kit.
So what is Fetters anyway? Is he a parts supplier? Then why does he
restrict modifications? Is he a helicopter manufacturer? Then why doesn't
he fix the problems? Rinke analyzed the vibration problems in a week.
If you machine five parts it might cost $600 each, if you machine 500 parts
they might cost $60 each. An unscrupulous man might incompetently design a
dangerous widget, but despite the danger to the public he would not make
changes in the design, because his parts cost per unit go up. He would
constantly tell the public that everything is fine.
I have stated that I believe that Fetters has compromised public safety in
deference to his own business interests when he crushed the Rinke
modifications. If you want a list of modifications offered by kit owners to
Fetters, then ask them at their Florida meeting. Get permission to publish
those modifications here and do so. I think everyone will see the pattern.
And then my good friend, you're going to have an go kiss Rinke's ring.
Furthermore, you can expect super nastiness coming at you from Fetters, as I
do now.
Guess again, if you think I'll ever buy a Fetters product.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
Badwater Bill wrote in message <36504920....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Gilbert Armbruster
>
On one last note, Badwater Bill where have you been? I haven't
> had anything interesting to read this weekend. I love it when you stir up
> shi.... OOPS poo poo.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Fred Stewart
> http://www.mini500.com
> non profanity user (on the newsgroup)
Fred glad to see you have recovered your sense of humor.
Gil
Ken Leander
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
Mark Mallory wrote in message ...
>Ken Leander (lea...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) wrote:
>: Take a look at the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, and you'll get an idea
>: of what undampened vibrations can do.
>
>minor nit: the crack in the Liberty Bell happened during it's
>*manufacture*, due to stresses created by uneven cooling.
>
>But, the point's well taken. Take a look at the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
>disaster (late '40s) to get an idea of what undampened vibrations
>can do.
Ken Leander
The Rinke story deserves to be remembered. He did what he could to save
lives and help people, at great cost to himself. I wonder if he might not
deserve a momento of respect from the Mini-500 owners when they gather in
Florida. I think they are all beginning to understand what he was trying to
do. It would sure be a nice gesture.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
fste...@mini500.com wrote in message <72qv90$s1t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>You are right on the money Ken. Your posts are really appreciated as you
know
>exactly what is going on. I was standing with Joe Rinke at Oshkosh when he
>offered the turbine to RHCi. We were told the turbine would never fly in
the
>Mini-500??????????????
>
>Fred Stewart
chu...@greatlakes.net
that Rinke has spent 10's of 1000's of dollars to isolate the problems and to
engineer fixes. And what did he do??????he offers the idea's to Fetters FREE,
But no,he does'nt want to hear it and basically just laughts at Joe.If it
was'nt his own idea ,he won't listen. DF is starting to use some of Joe's
ideas now.He may try too tell everyone its his fix,But I was their when Joe
tried to explain these fixes too him,and that was almost 2 years ago. Chuck
VT
In article <72pu63$c7d$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
"Ken Leander" <lea...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Let's start with the basics first. You're assuming that Fetters engineered
> the Mini-500. I don't see much evidence of that. The two engineering
> firms mentioned in the RHCI contract in the hold harmless clause probably
> did all the engineering number crunching on the Mini-500 design. One of the
> firms specializes in building construction (static structures) and the other
> specializes in automotive drive train engineering (race cars). I have no
> reason to believe that an aeronautical engineering firm was ever hired to
> look at the Mini-500 design.
>
> You see, helicopters are like bells hanging on a string. Vibrations from
> the rotor, motor, and tail rotor all have no place to go but to ring
> throughout the structure. A helicopter isn't like a snowmobile that dampens
> it's vibrations in the snow, or a race car with it's monstrous engine and
> heavy frame dampening it's vibrations in the ground, or even a jet ski
> dampening it's vibrations in the water. The air just doesn't absorb much
> energy. So, strict attention to vibrations has to be observed in helicopter
> engineering. What kind of engineer would hard mount the transmission
> directly to the frame? The Fetters kind. Take a look at the Liberty Bell
> in Philadelphia, and you'll get an idea of what undampened vibrations can
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Mark Mallory
: Take a look at the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, and you'll get an idea
minor nit: the crack in the Liberty Bell happened during it's
*manufacture*, due to stresses created by uneven cooling.
But, the point's well taken. Take a look at the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
disaster (late '40s) to get an idea of what undampened vibrations
can do.
fste...@mini500.com
You are right on the money Ken. Your posts are really appreciated as you know
exactly what is going on. I was standing with Joe Rinke at Oshkosh when he
offered the turbine to RHCi. We were told the turbine would never fly in the
Mini-500??????????????
Fred Stewart
In article <72pu63$c7d$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
"Ken Leander" <lea...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Let's start with the basics first. You're assuming that Fetters engineered
> the Mini-500. I don't see much evidence of that. The two engineering
> firms mentioned in the RHCI contract in the hold harmless clause probably
> did all the engineering number crunching on the Mini-500 design. One of the
> firms specializes in building construction (static structures) and the other
> specializes in automotive drive train engineering (race cars). I have no
> reason to believe that an aeronautical engineering firm was ever hired to
> look at the Mini-500 design.
>
> You see, helicopters are like bells hanging on a string. Vibrations from
> the rotor, motor, and tail rotor all have no place to go but to ring
> throughout the structure. A helicopter isn't like a snowmobile that dampens
> it's vibrations in the snow, or a race car with it's monstrous engine and
> heavy frame dampening it's vibrations in the ground, or even a jet ski
> dampening it's vibrations in the water. The air just doesn't absorb much
> energy. So, strict attention to vibrations has to be observed in helicopter
> engineering. What kind of engineer would hard mount the transmission
> directly to the frame? The Fetters kind. Take a look at the Liberty Bell
> in Philadelphia, and you'll get an idea of what undampened vibrations can
> Badwater Bill wrote in message <36504920....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> >
> >Very interesting. You sound like a guy who has some history in this
> >this thing. Many of you openly state that Fetters ignored actual
> >engineering fixes made by people with kits in the field. Other than
> >Rinke what were these, who made them and how were they presented and
> >rejected by RHCI? I'm just trying to learn something here, not be
> >confrontational. With the overwhelming number of posts by people who
> >are genuinely angry with RHCI it is difficult for me to believe that
> >there have not been serious communication problems. I'd just like to
> >know the details.
> >
> >Badwater Bill
> >
> >
> >>
> >>There is more, but I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already
> >>know. It all comes down to the standards you hold a manufacturer to. I
> >>expect better than that. No, I demand better than that.
> >>
fste...@mini500.com
your name for mine in Fetter's posts I think you would be angry too. It is
hard to stand by and take the blame when I have done nothing wrong. You were
at the Dallas meeting, did you see a hidden agenda or even get the feeling
that I was the head of a conspiricy? Then after all this preparation for the
next meeting, RHCI decides to try to split us up. Why? Why won't they come
to our meeting? Why didn't Dennis address the group in April at Sun & Fun
immediately after the meeting in Dallas? People spent good money to come to
the forum and walked away with nothing.
Why would I or anyone else spend our time and money for the same old thing we
have heard in the past. Max posted some time back about the Service Center
Meeting 1 year ago last October. There was to be a full day on track and
balance. I still have one agenda sent to us by Pete Connors and another by
Laura Fetters and both set aside one day for track and balance. We never
tracked or balanced an aircraft while we were there. That is why we were
invited. As a matter of fact I believe that only one person that attended the
Service Center Meeting is still a Service Center. I really don't believe the
next meeting will be any different.
Fred Stewart
In article <72p52j$r...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
mma...@my-dejanews.com
who went there for the track and balance portion and got nothing for my
money. Thanks again for speaking up. You told me when I first started that
I'd be on the back table next year, (The Table of the Frustrated) heck, I
never made to next year. I'm kinda glad too, seeing how RHCI treats its
customer base. Especially the ones who have truly tried to benefit RHCI
without request for compensation. Its just a shame that such a wonderful
dream could get screwed up by such a lousy manager. I too am sorry if I
offended Ralph. I thought by the way he talked before that he wanted
solutions. I thought he should have known from the track record here that
he's barking up the wrong tree. There's no game up the tree he is barking at
only a false scent. I am looking forward to the roster of the attendees and
speakers being posted so all can see where the line is drawn.
Thanks again,
L8R
Max Sherrell
In article <72qvvn$sqj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ralph Raser
No offense taken.
I was at the Dallas meeting along with my brother Bob. You're right there
was no hidden agenda that we could see. The problem is one of personalities
as I see it. Some people just don't get along well, no matter what the
subject. Dennis should have spoken to the whole group, not just the few
that came to his room after the meeting. To bad that couldn't have been
arranged. As far as Laura wearing a microphone, it wouldn't have made much
of a difference. The walls between the two rooms were thin enough to hear
everything anyway. <g>
I hope we can iron out the differences between both sides before the
February meetings. I personally want to attend the RHCI meeting IF the
subject is track and balance using the new vibration solution
I suspect there will be a change in dates of these meetings at the date
approaches. It would be nice to attend both. Although my idea fun is not
winter in the mid-west.
Take care,
Ralph
Canby, Oregon
Badwater Bill
Mini-500 in the next couple of months if everything works out okay.
You might be completely accurate in your assessment and I may be
totally wrong. Many of you have stated that the only way to know the
facts is to own one. I've consummated a deal where I am pretty sure I
will have one soon.
You people don't know me and I really do try to be realistic and call
it the way I see it unlike people like Campbell who always have an
hidden agenda. I don't expect anyone to believe that, especially on
the Internet. Respect and honor is something that is earned not
granted. I'm not here to gain your approval either but I do consider
myself to be an honorable man in spite of the fact that I play and
write a ton of satire on the newsgroups, including Miss Geeter.
I have about 2000 hours in UH-1H Hueys working for the government as a
scientist. Since I had a fixed wing commercial at the time, I flew a
lot in ETL but never logged the time. I'm just now working on the
rating after riding in Hueys for years when I was much younger.
In fact, if the machine I've been renting is in shape this week I
should solo the Robbie by Thursday.
If what I have been working on plays out, I'll have to rebuild an
earlier kit to contemporary standards and deal with RHCI. If I have
problems, they lie to me, cause me to hesitate or I deem the machine
unsafe, I promise to make the reasons public. I will do it in a non
emotional means and only state the facts of my difficulties as a
physicist and pilot trying to make the helicopter into a safe and
reliable flying machine
I've always worried about the 582. I have a 447 now that I've flown
behind for 4 years on a MiniMax 1500 sport, but that's a completely
different application.
I'm not in Dennis Fetters pocket by any means but I've not detected
him lying to me. I always give a person the benefit of the doubt and
I will with DF too. In my conversations with him he has always seemed
to be almost consumed with the idea that most of the problems with the
machine are due to tinkering with the design in the field. This may
be right and it may be wrong. I just know, having been a test pilot
for 14 experimental homebuilt fixed wing aircraft, that the tinkering
goes with the territory. I finally had to leave a project which used
an auto conversion because I didn't trust the backyard mechanics that
was going on. Most of the homebuilders I've known don't build the kit
according to the plans. They think they are smarter than the
designers and the factory plans.
Anyway, I don't mean to ramble. I'm going to find out for myself.
Bill Phillips
<snip a lot of interesting stuff>
Ken Leander
I have never considered the 582 a safe engine in this application,
especially considering improper attention has been paid to vibration damage.
But, safety is a relative issue and your definition is different than mine.
I have never been one to assume that a safe autorotation will ensue from
every power outage. If the engine quits at the wrong place and the wrong
time, no matter how good a pilot is, he is toast.
Statistical evidence indicates to me that another engine choice would be
prudent. Turbines have a remarkable safety record in helicopters, and twin
turbines are the only helicopter permitted to fly over water without
floatation devices by the FAA. I don't understand the legality of
obstructing Rinke from installing a turbine on his craft or from selling you
a turbine. I don't know if you would be in violation of your contract to
install your own. Personally, I would prefer Rinke's help. I don't think
Fetters could engineer his way out of a paper bag.
Regarding references to Jim Cambell, I would appreciate responses to me be
made without them. I consider some of the posts you have made in this
newsgroup regarding the man harassment and quite improper. If you're going
to pick a fight, pick it over a subject that matters.
Good luck to you in your new Mini-500. I don't envy you there.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
Badwater Bill wrote in message <3653ee9e....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Ken Leander
Gosh you people have suffered. I don't know how you would have known what
Fetters was like. I was almost right there with you. The only thing that
held me back was the lack of hours on the prototype. I then witnessed the
vicious statements by Fetters to BADRAD here in this newsgroup, and felt
something was very wrong. I waited. With the Rinke lawsuit, well... it was
just over for me. It seemed insane to sue Rinke. He was only trying to
help.
I do want to thank people like you very much for telling it like it is. You
have protected the public from a bad situation, even though it was probably
in your best interest to remain silent. People like you, who have stood up
are very much appreciated.
One day I will have a helicopter. It just won't be from RHCI.
Good luck Chuck.
--
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
chu...@greatlakes.net wrote in message <72qp6g$n9p$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
SHOR...@aol.com
thing like the---"TRUTH". Be silent man, you know better than to pick on
"Aviations Greatest Champion".
READ ALL ABOUT IT -Next issue: Supporters rush to the aid to save Aviations
Champion. Momentum swings,BWB considered harrasing and improper by others.
Hope this isn't education's finest moment-- guys a hero because he writes a
column, challenge the hero and your a bum, challenge the hero (with
statistical evidence)and your still a bum. Research at its finest.
In article <72sl59$mpt$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ken Leander
Your assumptions are astounding.
My conversation with Bill had nothing to do with Jim Campbell, he brought
him up. I never made a hero out of Jim.
However, freedom of speech is a right I will defend. If you think it is
proper to harass Jim out of that right, guess again. I don't care who it
is. If everytime someone posts and he is harassed as Jim Campbell has been,
then those actions border on denying his freedom of speech. That's
improper.
Jim Campbell has never been even the tiniest factor in my life. I don't
recall reading more that three of his articles. He strikes me as a niche
journalist in a tiny market struggling to make a buck. I can't imagine
anyone in their right mind buying an aircraft on the sayso of any
journalist. At best a journalist is background material.
It seems to me that focus on Jim centers around some lawsuits on defamation
of character. Some people who have the ability to write first and think
later have escalated minor arguments to epic proportions. I don't really
care. Argue and troll each other all you want...till your fingers bleed.
Just don't bring your little squabbles into my world. Don't address me with
them if you don't want to know how stupid I think the argument is.
And the next time you address something I write about, you address me
directly. If I'm wrong, you'll see me admit it.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
SHOR...@AOL.COM wrote in message <72t2ao$nnk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
skid...@msn.com
Gilbert Armbruster <garmbr...@erols.com> wrote:
> fste...@mini500.com wrote:
> >
> On one last note, Badwater Bill where have you been? I haven't
> > had anything interesting to read this weekend. I love it when you stir up
> > shi.... OOPS poo poo.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Fred Stewart
> > http://www.mini500.com
> > non profanity user (on the newsgroup)
>
>
> Gil
>
would cheer up too! Didn't you see her post,if he didn't? She sure has been
eating well since the last time I saw her!
Ed 005
Badwater Bill
You seem like a real bright guy. Go buy the new addition of USaviator
and turn to page 67. As you read the narrative, remember that Jim
Campbell sued everyone he speaks about in that editorial. He drew
first blood on all of the people to whom he wishes (whines) would
simply go away.
Have you ever been sued in a frivolous law suit? Have your assets
been put in jeopardy by a maniac? Maybe so. Maybe not. But believe
me, nothing this creep writes in this editorial for international
consumption is accurate. I'm not addressing you in the same sense
that I address this loser Jimmy Campbell. I'm sorry you took it that
way.
I really think Campbell is a psychopath. I really do. He makes up
his own stories then gets nervous about them, begins to believe his
own fears and so on. The truth is, he was in the next motel room from
me at the EAA Copperstate fly-in a month ago. I walked right by him
many times. He's no more afraid of me or any of the others he claims
are stalking him than I'm afraid of a meteor falling on my head. It's
all hype.
You go read his editorial. If this guy were really afraid that I was
a terrorist and wanted to kill him, don't you think he'd have moved
rooms? He's phonier than a 3-dollar bill.
It's all BS to sell his rag.
Badwater Bill
skid...@msn.com
bill...@ix.netcom.com (Badwater Bill) wrote:
>
> Very interesting. You sound like a guy who has some history in this
> this thing. Many of you openly state that Fetters ignored actual
> engineering fixes made by people with kits in the field. Other than
> Rinke what were these, who made them and how were they presented and
> rejected by RHCI? I'm just trying to learn something here, not be
> confrontational. With the overwhelming number of posts by people who
> are genuinely angry with RHCI it is difficult for me to believe that
> there have not been serious communication problems. I'd just like to
> know the details.
>
> Badwater Bill
>
> >
> >There is more, but I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already
> >know. It all comes down to the standards you hold a manufacturer to. I
> >expect better than that. No, I demand better than that.
> >
> >Ken Leander
> >Austin, Texas
> >
Hey,Bill, I do not know Miss Geeter, BUT,I DO KNOW MRS.STEWART,And she has
warned us ex Marines:"SHAPE UP!" or #$$D%^&&%FV (I got the message) With her
help maybe there is hope for us yet????
Seriously,When or if you purchase A M-500 & either build it or rebuild it.
Listen to all pilots or builders who are experienced in this aircraft about
assembly & flying characteristics. WE mean you no ill will! Most,if not all,
want no other pilots harmed needlessly in this aircraft. I have info about
some points of assembly that I feel are a safety concern. Some of my concerns
may have been corrected by now as I have pointed them out to factory
personel. Some flight characteristics almost anyone who has flown one can
discuss in detail. No matter what the factory tells you,Please check it out!!
There are procedures that are unique to this aircraft:They have been tested
by Don Fairbanks & myself and we feel they work( May not save the aircraft
But, I'm reasonably sure you will walk away ) One gentleman you may want to
talk to is, Jim Wilson,McKinney,Texas - Ser.# 015 - email: mini...@aol.com -
( I have his home Ph.# but will not give it without his consent ) I consider
him to be a real authority on the M-500 (a laymans engineer & test pilot) He
developed the framemod W/urathane mounted M/R gear box(2 pers are still there
as they always will be But,not transfering to the frame). I am not trying to
rag on Dennis but this one of the mods that RHCI has finally going to use (
Jim has 318 hrs. TT and no more cracks )He still has maintenance troubles as
we all expected. That is the nature of the bear. Enough rambling! If I can
help in any way,Don't hesitate to ask. Later,if you need my Ph.# I will send
it via private email.I still owe you a beer(or 2 ) If I do not meet you in
Florida, I'm sure we will bump into each other at some flying event as we
both seem to like fling wings. Goog Luck & Fly Safe = That R-22 is not near
as much fun as the other fling wing = SOME DAY!!!! Ed 005
skid...@msn.com
Ken, I hope your back & shaking hand are not getting sore. Thank YOU,Again,
for you opinion (sounds like experience). The more some of us owners hear
statements like yours,the more we feel vindicated (early on,I really thought
my problems were self induced-I did not have a lot of aviation experience
building or flying). I find it hard to believe in this day & age of info, how
anyone could think that such important info would not be shared with other
owners/builders. I now wish I had not fallen for Mr. Fetters ploy. My
original Ser. # was to be # 286 & a 2 1/2 year wait. I told them to take me
off of their list,that I was going to look into buying a R-22. Within 3 0r 4
days I recieved a call from the factory(no name mentioned)informing me that I
would be able to buy 1 of 2 Mini-500's that suddenly came available. If I
would send full purchase price by overnight express,that I would get one of
the A/C to be delivered within 2 months(Boy, what a fool,"I SENT IT",If I had
only waited!!!!) The one especially good thing about this experience (or
nightmare, which ever) is that I have met some of the greatest people from
all walks of life. Renews my faith in humanity! Give some people a cause and
they will rise to the occasion. I've rambled enough, you get my point. Thanks
Again,Looking forward to your future post = Very Inlightening
Fly Safe & Keep up the intelligent posts, Ed # 005
Badwater Bill
Boy! Do I appreciate this post. Thank you sir! I will try to listen
to anyone of you with experience. What worries me most is that I'm a
6000 hour fixed wing pilot test flying a swing-wing with only a few
hundred rotor hours and only 20 logged. I really do apprecitate all
of your input, even Joe Rinke's. Thanks!
Bill
>as much fun as the other fling wing = SOME DAY!!!! Ed 005
BADRADD
In article <36594480....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, bill...@ix.netcom.com
(Badwater Bill) writes:
>You seem like a real bright guy. Go buy the new addition of USaviator
>and turn to page 67. As you read the narrative, remember that Jim
>Campbell sued everyone he speaks about in that editorial. He drew
>first blood on all of the people to whom he wishes (whines) would
>simply go away.
>>Have you ever been sued in a frivolous law suit? Have your assets
>been put in jeopardy by a maniac? Maybe so. Maybe not. <SNIP>
Allright, enough of your BULLSHIT is enough....
Badwater (a.k.a. Brainfart) Billy & his lawyer buddy Tony, the (small) italian
stallion Pucillo are stinkin up the place somethin fierce. You boys sure are
spending a lot of time talkin to yourselves these days. Having fun are ya?
Well here fellas, chew on this:
Brainfart Billy's statement above is pure shit. He and his dickhead lawyer
buddy, among others, spent more than a year that I know of, literally bashing
Mr Campbell over in rec.aviation.homebuilt before the lawsuit ol' Brainfart
refers to was ever filed. I wouldn't know Jim Campbell if he walked up and
slapped me in the face, but I do know one thing, and that is that you boys
definitely drew first blood, and Brainfart's accusation here to the contrary is
nothing more than a blatant lie.
Furthermore, once said suit was filed, old Brainfart Billy thought it was cute
to run and hide from a lady process server and then bragged about it on that
NG. And now he comes over here, lies like hell, and expects to establish
himself some credibilty? Nobody here seems to give a shit about your beef with
Campbell, so why don't you take it elsewhere and let the rest of these folks
get on with the business of trying to find solutions to the problems with their
aircraft.
And as for you Pucillo, the 13 page narratives you write to yourself continue
to amaze, and definitely speak for themselves. I have a friend who is a
retired supreme court justice who once told me that he denied nearly all of the
motions that were ever presented to him. When I asked him why, he told me
that the lawyers who wrote them were the only jerks on earth who could spend
days writing volumes and never get to the point.
GET A LIFE PUCILLO!
Bad (I'm outa here, you boys have fun now) Radd
Jerry Springer
>
Radd your spewing false words again. Tony was Campbells biggest
supporter
and as far as the BS about BWB stalking Campbell at Arlington as
Campbell
says in USA that is totally false I was there his RV-6 was parked next
to
mine. He was by his airplane most of the time if he wasn't he was in
town
visiting. There was a photo taken of Campbell but gees who wouldn't want
a picture of the great savior of aviation.
--
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsf...@ix.netcom.com
Ken Leander
I'm not here to try your case. We have a court system that does that. If
you are right, Campbell will get none of your money, otherwise you will have
to face the music. It's in your best interest to stop discussing the issue.
But, it is none of my business. I have never cared about this issue. It is
of no concern to me. I have always qualified my sources of information and
journalists have never been at the top of my reliability list. They have a
product they are selling and advertisers to make happy. In general, they
stretch the story to cover both bases. It is usually most amusing to read
journalist articles for creativity in that endeavor.
As I mentioned in my post to Shorty Jim or Jim Shorty, my only concern is
with unhampered free speech in this newsgroup. The court system is the best
place to decide your issue with Jim Campbell. Take the papers and state
your case. Good luck.
Ken Leander
Badwater Bill wrote in message <36594480....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
jims...@my-dejanews.com
Jimshorts. For now you can continue to call me Jim.
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with equal number of good v. bad. Its not
a timed debate of equal responses. It does have to do with making sure the
"TRUTH" comes out although that part isn't guaranteed. If Jimmy had more
people believing in him, yes you'd see more positive things being written, I
guess they don't.
I don't think reading three articles and stating you have no interest in the
man gives much creadence toward knowing if he is being harrassed or defamed.
Sound more like you just don't give a damn. I for one have stated why I
don't think he is of any help to the m500 situation, have challenged him to
put the issues before "himself" and he has decided not to accept. His right,
selfish as it may be. If he wants to take my paid advertisment stating my
feelings about him to his readership-I'll gladly tell my story there as well.
I'm sure he won't and don't plan to waste the time writing a letter to the
editor which won't get published. Again his right. Freedom of Speech doesn't
guarantee a right to equal venues, it guarantees that you can state your
cause in what's available to you.
He was denounced by Chuck, BWB,Tony and others, and now young Wingman, all
who have taken the abuse of his pen, right here, telling us of his
falsetales. Your only response is I'm not interested so don't bother me with
it. Take it to court so I'm not affected. Take off the blinders man, you
can't separate the issues, its like trying to believe the message when you
don't believe the messenger.
My "freedom" does say I can respond to open forums with the "TRUTH", stating
my facts and my opinions to anyone interested in listening. Harrassment, I
think not. Defamation, not as well. If falsehoods are told, then and only
then should we go to court. Until I've done these "dark deeds" your option
is: If you don't want to read it don't click on my posts, stay in the
darkness and be uninformed. Should you wish to be "enlightened", friend, ask
about the misgivings of brother Campbell and your eyes will be opened.
James Shorts aka Jimshorts, sometimes shortyjim (can't help it,I was born this
way), Never ever Jim Shorty.
In article <72utio$jue$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Rich Ahrens
> Furthermore, once said suit was filed, old Brainfart Billy thought it was cute
> to run and hide from a lady process server and then bragged about it on that
> NG.
Are you really that dense? That whole scenario was staged, as anyone
could tell. If you had bothered to look at the photos, you would have
seen that Candy the Process Server was actually Campbell's ex-wife.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Rich Ahrens | Homepage: http://www.visi.com/~rma/ |
|r...@visi.com |-----------------------------------------------|
|"In a world full of people only some want to fly - isn't that crazy?" |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Leander
that my previous comments were directed to SHOR...@AOL.COM an offensive,
anonymous poster. Are you telling me that you are one in the same?
My response depends on whom I am talking to.
Ken Leander
Austin, Texas
jims...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<72vdjj$or7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...