Running a turbine helicopter engine on diesel??
Earl Barfield
Australia. A summary of one of their flights mentioned that the Bell
412 had inadeqate range for an off-shore rescue, so they stopped
en-route an topped off the tanks with diesel fuel. This came as quite
a surprise to me.
I suppose a gas turbine will burn just about anything withing reason,
but is burning diesel a common occurrance? What does this do to the
engine? What sort of teardown/cleanup is required afterward?
Wouldn't the FAA bust you for this in the USA on the grounds of not
operating the aircraft withing the manufacturer's guidelines?
--
Earl Barfield -- Operations Department / Information Technology
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: Earl.B...@oit.gatech.edu ea...@prism.gatech.edu
ea...@fantasy.gatech.edu ea...@oit.gatech.edu
Jeff A. Day
: I recently read a story of Helicopter Air-Medical operations in
: Australia. A summary of one of their flights mentioned that the Bell
: 412 had inadeqate range for an off-shore rescue, so they stopped
: en-route an topped off the tanks with diesel fuel. This came as quite
: a surprise to me.
:
: I suppose a gas turbine will burn just about anything withing reason,
: but is burning diesel a common occurrance? What does this do to the
: engine? What sort of teardown/cleanup is required afterward?
: Wouldn't the FAA bust you for this in the USA on the grounds of not
: operating the aircraft withing the manufacturer's guidelines?
: ea...@fantasy.gatech.edu ea...@oit.gatech.edu
Most turbines can actually burn fuels other than their specified type.
I've never heard of diesel being used but than again, in the Army we are
allowed to use unleaded fuel in an emergency.
Jeff
b17...@vaxb.phx1.aro.allied.com
> I recently read a story of Helicopter Air-Medical operations in
> Australia. A summary of one of their flights mentioned that the Bell
> 412 had inadeqate range for an off-shore rescue, so they stopped
> en-route an topped off the tanks with diesel fuel. This came as quite
> a surprise to me.
>
> I suppose a gas turbine will burn just about anything withing reason,
> but is burning diesel a common occurrance? What does this do to the
> engine? What sort of teardown/cleanup is required afterward?
> Wouldn't the FAA bust you for this in the USA on the grounds of not
> operating the aircraft withing the manufacturer's guidelines?
>
Gas turbines are very tolerant of what fuels they burn. I recently
worked a qualification program for a US Navy start cart. This unit
mounts on back of the tractor used to tow the planes around on the
deck of a carrier and provides compressed air for main engine starting.
We ran a significant portion of the qualification test on diesel fuel.
I was more surprised to see that the tractor's diesel engine was placarded
to allow operation with JP-5. A fact that we accidently verified.
In a flight engine, it can be little more tricky. Changes in the fuel
density can alter the fuel schedule (which can be compensated via the
SG adjustment on the fuel control) and your altitude relight envelope
may suffer due to poorer atomization of the fuel (probably less of a problem
for a helo than a biz jet). Viscosity differences may result in temperature
limitations on the use of diesel fuel. Also, diesel fuel burns a little
"dirtier" so an engine run on diesel exculsively, may have a shorter turbine
life due to carbon particle erosion. The components in the fuel system are
resistant to both types of fuels,so there are no special cleaning procedures
after using diesel fuel. As long as the engine manufacturer allows use of
diesel fuels, there is no problem with the FAA. For example, the LTS101
operating instructions allows use of both artic grades (DF-A) and winter
grade (DF-1) diesel fuels within certain limitations. Other turbine engines
should have similar allowances and limitations.
Hope this answers your question.
... hope now you're not sorry you asked :-)
Mark Johnston
Sr Engineering Specialist
LT101 Project
AlliedSignal Engines
Phx, AZ
Bucket99
Many turbine engines I have worked on in the Military, including the T-53,
T-400, etc, (Installed in Military Helicopters) have the ability to run
on Avgas, Diesel Fuel, Unleaded Gasoline, or any type of NATO JP (4,5,8,
etc). There are restrictions for it's use, and I am sure most -10's
would call for a hot end inspection afterward (At least).
But most turbines will run on anything that another combustion engine
can burn, they just won't run quite as well, or quite as long before
needing repair.
U.S. Military Hueys, Cobra's and other aircraft (Including the OV-10D)
have this capability in mind when they were designed, special
considerations are well documented in the technical manuals.
As my memory serves, the Bell Model 412, and 414 will both run on
diesel fuel with out major problems, but may require a special inspection
of the engine afterward.
The Rockwell OV-10D has the capability to run on all fuels (The fuel
control is adjustable for specific gravity) and the technical manual
gives detailed instructions for it's adjustment.
Steve Fribley
manufactures prescribe particular power settings for "alternative fuels",
to account for the need to operate on indigenous fuels, ranging from
avgas, autogas, vegetable oils, etc. As long as you don't burnup the
pumps & nozzles, the basic turbine will burn all sorts of sludge. Diesel
comes perhaps closest of any common fuel to jet-a/jp4
Garth Harrington
>I recently read a story of Helicopter Air-Medical operations in
>Australia. A summary of one of their flights mentioned that the Bell
>412 had inadeqate range for an off-shore rescue, so they stopped
>en-route an topped off the tanks with diesel fuel. This came as quite
>a surprise to me.
>
>I suppose a gas turbine will burn just about anything withing reason,
>but is burning diesel a common occurrance? What does this do to the
>engine? What sort of teardown/cleanup is required afterward?
>Wouldn't the FAA bust you for this in the USA on the grounds of not
>operating the aircraft withing the manufacturer's guidelines?
>
>
>--
>Earl Barfield -- Operations Department / Information Technology
>Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
>Internet: Earl.B...@oit.gatech.edu ea...@prism.gatech.edu
> ea...@fantasy.gatech.edu ea...@oit.gatech.edu
stoveoil,"winter diesel", jet A, all from the same tank.Regular diesel
has a higher viscosity and I havn't heard of anyone using it,OK in an
emergency probably if there is some fuel left in the tank as well. Too
much sulphur and other impurities in regular diesel fuel. could impact
power turbine life etc.Garth Harrington(Cultus Lake Helicopters Ltd.)
ga...@junction.net
Jorg Steinke
ea...@airwolf.oit.gatech.edu (Earl Barfield) wrote:
>I recently read a story of Helicopter Air-Medical operations in
>Australia. A summary of one of their flights mentioned that the Bell
>412 had inadeqate range for an off-shore rescue, so they stopped
>en-route an topped off the tanks with diesel fuel. This came as quite
>a surprise to me.
you are talking *big* back country here ;^)
>I suppose a gas turbine will burn just about anything withing reason,
>but is burning diesel a common occurrance? What does this do to the
>engine? What sort of teardown/cleanup is required afterward?
>Wouldn't the FAA bust you for this in the USA on the grounds of not
>operating the aircraft withing the manufacturer's guidelines?
the problem is not at all the Diesel
a turbine is very happy with that
HOWEVER: this practise may, proably will, cause major problems with the
fuel supply system
the reason is this microbe, Mickey, which lives and multiplies in Diesel
(in Kerosene, too - but stringend cleanlyess here)
first this stuff can clog your filters unless there is a proper filter on the
dispenser
but what's worse: when Mickey dies it sinks to bottom and causes corrosion
which can perforate (and has done so) aluminium tanks and wings
if you use Diesel as emergency fuel then you have to clean the mickey out
of the tank very thoroughly afterwards ...
happy rotoring
Jorg
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"I knew it is a poodle - but I did not realise that he was French until he
started doing his business in other people's backyard"
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<jo...@inca.co.nz> / \
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+----------
Susan Nagy
>From: zzy...@homer.alpha.net (Vincent Mulhollon)
>Subject: Re: Running a turbine helicopter engine on diesel??
>Date: 15 Feb 1996 03:26:03 GMT
Diesel can be used for gas turbines, its reasonably common for
industrial/marine turbines. However the extra sulphur in diesel fuel
dramatically lowers the hot section corrosion life, especially in aircraft
turbines which don't have high chromium superalloys or coatings.
Does this help? I missed the original post but I couldn't resist.....
Doug
Bucket99
low
sulphur formulation.
Buck...@AOL.COM
(Straighten up and fly right, DAMMIT!)