Home built fresh air supply for painting
Robert McDonald
information about a home made fresh air supply system. Is it on a web
site? Can anybody provide a pointer to this information? I don't want
to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
Rob
Robert McDonald
Bela P. Havasreti
Rob,
There was an article in the November '98 (I think) issue of the "EAA
Experimenter" magazine which had some basic plans/ideas about
how to build your own fresh-air breathing supply unit.
Corky Scott was kind enough to fax me a copy of the article. I still
have the paper copy at home and can fax it to you if you'd like....?
The web page is here:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2951/air_supply.html
FWIW, If I was to build another one, I'd use lighter fittings at the
mask and a lighter supply hose....
Bela P. Havasreti CP-ASEL-I
SNJ-5B BuNo 91077 Basket case
NATA member #1742
EAA Warbirds of America (Cascade Warbirds Squadron #2)
Warbirds Worldwide
Puyallup, Washington USA
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2951
Morgans
Robert McDonald <rob.mcdon...@forth.org> wrote in message
news:3810d094....@news.bmts.com...
> A while back, before I planned on spray painting, somebody posted
> information about a home made fresh air supply system. Is it on a web
> site? Can anybody provide a pointer to this information? I don't want
> to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
>
> Rob
>
What's wrong with a good resperator? I once polyurathaned the inside of a
hot tup room with one and never tasted a bit of it.
Jim in NC
Mark Winlund
blowers... relatively high pressure and volume with no sparks. A long
vacuum cleaner hose and a full face mask and you are ready to go. (Put the
blower upwind or outside somewhere!)
Mark
Robert McDonald wrote in message <3810d094....@news.bmts.com>...
Grant Erwin
with epoxy paint of the most tenacious and horrible-smelling variety. I
used a cartridge respirator one day, new, in correct adjustment, with
2 new cartridges certified for organic vapor. Bad results, bad headache.
The next day I used an Israeli gas mask, purchased at local surplus store
for under $15US. Worked perfectly, didn't taste epoxy all day while
wearing it.
I've used tons of airline respirators. This is a good workaround for
a short job.
Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington
Robert McDonald <rob.mcdon...@forth.org> wrote in message
> A while back, before I planned on spray painting, somebody posted
Orrin B. Iseminger
adequate protection.
OTOH, some paint products, notably some hardeners, require the use of
air-supplied breathing devices.
I've been wondering the same thing--how to make an airline unit.
Orrin
In article <QP8Q3.29735$E_1.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com>,
jsmo...@twave.net says...
Snip
Can anybody provide a pointer to this information? I don't want
>> to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
driz
Its been used on many occasions and never tasted the Emron. Still I
try to stay out of the spray and do it outside. Has anyone any real
data on gas masks for filtering issocyonates out there????????
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Paul Koning
>
> I recently did several coats on the floor of a medium size room, inside,
> with epoxy paint of the most tenacious and horrible-smelling variety. I
> used a cartridge respirator one day, new, in correct adjustment, with
> 2 new cartridges certified for organic vapor. Bad results, bad headache.
I would tend to wonder about things labelled generically "organic
vapor" given that there are millions of organic compounds.
It's hard to imagine that a single cartridge would work
for all the various vapors you could encounter. And it
seems that your experience confirms this...
paul
Brian K. Michalk
Robert McDonald <rob.mcdon...@forth.org> wrote:
>A while back, before I planned on spray painting, somebody posted
>information about a home made fresh air supply system. Is it on a web
>to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
>
>Rob
>
Waay back in 1997 I had an email discussion with Garfield about this
very subject. What follows is our email, posted without permission
from Garfield. Hope that's okay.
<<<<<begin email from Garfield>>>>>>>
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:56:44 -0600 (CST), "Brian K. Michalk"
<mic...@awpi.com> wrote:
>Hmmm. I found it. What's the difference between the two and
>three stage?
>They are both 5.7BPT whatever that is.
>The three stage is 1200 watts though, 200 more than the 2 stage.
>
>Does the three stage get me more CFM, or more pressure? will the 3 =
stage=20
>drive two people suits?
This is funny. You are going thru the same puzzlements I did. Well,
that's what these wonnerful net groups is fer, eh? This is what I have
learned so far: let's start with fans, and even squirrel cage fans that
are used in forced-air ventilation (ya know, what you have in your
house, probably). Well, as long as the back pressure is below say 2-3
psi, the fan works fine. Above that, the blades go turbulent, the motor
becomes UNloaded and speeds up, and nothing flows much. Soooo, attaching
hoses that are going to constrict the flow and raise pressure is a no-no
for a fan. Trust me, I experimented with some nice hughmongous air mover
blowers from surplus, but as soon as you attach a hose of any kind,
well....let's put it this way, bottom line is a fan doth not a
compressor make, even a low psi compressor.
OK, step one done. Soooooo, whatdayado? Well, you can GO to a
compressor, like Survivair and others do. That allows their product to
not be sensitive *much* to hose length, etc. cause you can crank the
head end up as needed to make sure you have enough pressure at the hose
end to give you the flow (min 5 cfm, max 15 cfm OSHA) you want at the
hood. BUT, compressors are not so wonderfully suited to producing low
pressure, high volume (normal home shop compressors do about 4-6 cfm
running wide open...not stopping...this too I experimented with). Plus
every true compressor (namely, a positive displacement device) is gonna
contaminate the air and therefore needs filtering (which of course is
never perfect, so there is SOME level of risk, regardless); take your
pick, do you want to breath atomized petroleum-based oils or do you want
to breath supremely fine carbon particles into your lungs (this from the
carbon vane style compressors widely used in SAR...supplier air
respirators).
OK, so step two done. Now, along come hobbyests playing with some
semi-dangerous chemicals...whatado to keep the cost down. So HobbyAir
guys think, well, SOME vacuum devices do a decent job of BLOWING too if
they are designed for that, too. Remember in the beginning shop vacs
were just for VAC'ing, and then someone got the bright idea, hey, we
could sell them also as being VAC/Blowers is we take the single stage
turbine and put a secondary on it to reduced the effects of back
pressure on the turbine. Finally, you're getting your answer, eh?
Wondered why even with a third stage, the specs don't seem too
different? Well, it's because it's just a trade-off curve of how well
you want: a.) the vacuum to suck...an extra stage makes the turbine look
more like a positive displacement VACUUM pump, too, of course; and b.)
the blower to blow...an extra stage again makes it look more like a
positive displacement compressor of sorts.
Now, the bottom line. You wonder, what do I get for the extra money and
turbine stage, etc., and especially can I suit and hood TWO people.
Well, I can tell you that the HobbyAir II system that used the 2-stage
thingie, just like my blower, says that it is sufficient to drive 2
hoods with one 40' hose on each, or one hood on an 80' length of hose.
Hoods, mind you; they don't provide or spec anything for suits; I had to
add that meself. And since you are still not really talking about a
compressor, the hose length matters clearly. That's why I think if I had
to build one for me and a helper, I would at least use a 3-stage
turbine, and perhaps, only remotely perhaps I would just for certainty
sake, also get a BIGGER blower. That's the other thing I didn't tell ya.
Ametek/Lamb actually makes a whole line of bigger monsters that are like
these little guys on steroids. Take a look at a 2M179. Now those don't
have an output nozzle so you'd have to build outlets on the box holding
it, and use the box both as an input plenum for filtering and an output
plenum, but I ONLY mention this as being the extreme overkill situation
where you probably want to go to a compressor instead. Obviously they
(2M179) are quite alot more money, too.
My ending conclusion was oddly that the required pressure/flow combo
needed for SAR is kind of a quandry, since it doesn't fit well for
either blowers or compressors. A compressor BTW to supply say 20 cfm (2
X 10 per person) at 15 psi at the compressor so you get that flow at a
40' length for each hood/suit is gonna be a WHOPPING big compressor, and
it's gonna run continuously, not pressure up and then shut off. Problem
again is, you need positive displacement for the application, but you
need low pressure and high volume. Well YOU know what that means; it's
like a steam engine...low pressure and high volume, so the cylinders on
the compressor are gonna need to be pretty big to keep up with that cfm.
Sigh. See, it ain't easy, eh?
Had enough? Mind you, my family is in book publishing, so I type at
about 150 wpm, so if you've got the time to read, don't worry about my
verbosity. Anyway, I suppose you'd be better off building TWO
pump/blower boxes with the cheaper two stage blowers, and being certain
you could handle two suit/hoods, but if you are likely only gonna try
hoods, or (if you don't have a beard) even a half-mask...they make those
too, then you could probably get by fine by spending another $30,
getting the 3-stage and using just one box to drive two masks or hoods.
These are my ramblings, such as they are.
Cheers,
Garfield
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:36:19 -0600 (CST), "Brian K. Michalk"
<mic...@awpi.com> wrote:
>Do you know the SKU# of the blower you are referring to?
>I did a search on www.grainger.com, and found a lot of blowers,
>but nothing that matched your description
>exactly.
Sure. 4M929 (Ametek #116392-01). The 2M430 (Ametek #116392-00) is
another nearly identical one, except it has "air-sealed" bearings (the
bearing housing is doubly sealed...my guess if you were going to use it
to vacuum up 'stuff' that's be longer lived). There are bigger 3 stage
turbines there for about 50% more; take a look at a 4M923.
Gar
--
Brian Michalk <http://www.awpi.com/michalk>
Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something.
Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver
musician, home-brewer, entrepenuer and SINGLE!
David Berryhill
TIP tools catalog has a low pressure air respirator (part #7151-40) that
delivers 7CFM, has 40 feet of hose, a half-mask and costs $419.00.
They have a web site at www.tiptools.com but call and get their catalog. It
has lots more stuff and some great info on compressed air systems, bead
blast cabinets and more. 800-321-9260.
Dave Berryhill
RKBA!
John Flanagan
>A while back, before I planned on spray painting, somebody posted
>information about a home made fresh air supply system. Is it on a web
>site? Can anybody provide a pointer to this information? I don't want
>to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
I came up with a design patterned after a unit I saw sold by a german
company. It works VERY well and is cheap and serves more than two
functions simultainiously (sp), and is not unwieldy.
I've been told about the dangers of carbon monoxide using this system,
but that's ccrazy. I used it quite a bit with NO problems at all. A
more real problem is oil mists. I'm currently using an oiless 6HP air
compressor so no problenm there. Although I used to use the system
with a compressor that did use oil, still never saw or had ANY
problems.
The system: Your choice air compressor. Feeds into an used
residential A?C evaporator coil, the one that goes inside the furnace.
This drops the temp of the heated air from the compressor and causes
ALOT of the water to condense out. This feeds into a 40 micron 1/2"
filter/water separater. Then to the pressure regulator which drops
the pressure and by doing so cools the air thereby increasing relative
humidity. This then feeds into a .6 micron coallesing (sp) filter
which will remove the water "fog" that results from the
pressure/temperature drop across the regulator. This then feeds into
a homemade activated filter canister that removes the organic and oil
vapors but not the CO if there should be any present, I don't think
this is a problem though and I haave never had one with CO before
either.
This then feeds into a 40-50' 3/8" hose that goes up to a small
filter/regulator that is attached to a belt around my waist. The bowl
of the regulator has dry paper towels in it to absorb any condensate
formed in the 3/8" hose. Attached to the downstream port of the
regulator is a "T" fitting with a 1/4" ball valve on one side with a
1/8" sealing (probably not necessary) quick disconnect. This feeds
throgh a small clear plastic hose into a full face mask I made using
foam rubber glued to a full face shield like those used for grinding
etc. The foam seals completely aroung my face and forhead. The air
flows across my face from top to bottom helping to remove any fog
caused from my breath. I sealled some of the foam with RTV to help
direct the airflow. The face shield has thin sheets of acrylic acroos
the shield so paint can get on it and just be peeled away not harming
the more expensive lexan shield.
The other leg of the "T" has another 1/4" quick disconnect on it.
This feeds a 1/4" hose right into my spray gun htat has a five or six
foot whip hose on it. I can also feed this hose over my shoulder and
down my arm if I'm spraying in a situation where the hose might hit
the object.
Works very good, The belt idea really helps in the hose handling
department while walking around the car or whatever. The full face
keeps the isocyanates out of your eyes and you'll never guess how bad
the air around you is, until you take the mask off. It doesn't use
much air from the compressor either, but if you have a small
compressor to start with you may have problems. I did get isocyanates
on my arm once. Made my arm feel really wierd for a day or two.
Convinced me the stuff is seriously nasty!!!! I always use my
positive pressure full face for the iso's now. I originally built the
water removeal system because I ruined an expensive job due to water
in the lines. No problem at all with this system. You could probably
get an evaporator coil from any A/C repairman.
John
John Flanagan
Roger Duncan
air systems use coolers and particle filters on the
compressor as part of that system. Then to make it a diving system
they just use coalescing filters because they filter out all the oil
particulents that can cause oil phenomena. At one time they used
activated charcoal filters but stopped when tests showed
they can sometimes give off higher consecrations of contaminates than
is in the unfiltered air.
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:54:35 GMT, jfla...@usit.net (John Flanagan)
wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:03:30 GMT, rob.mcdon...@forth.org
>(Robert McDonald) wrote:
>
>>A while back, before I planned on spray painting, somebody posted
>>information about a home made fresh air supply system. Is it on a web
>>site? Can anybody provide a pointer to this information? I don't want
>>to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
>
>I came up with a design patterned after a unit I saw sold by a german
>company. It works VERY well and is cheap and serves more than two
>functions simultainiously (sp), and is not unwieldy.
>
>I've been told about the dangers of carbon monoxide using this system,
>but that's ccrazy. I used it quite a bit with NO problems at all. A
>more real problem is oil mists. I'm currently using an oiless 6 HP air
>compressor so no problem there. Although I used to use the system
>with a compressor that did use oil, still never saw or had ANY
>problems.
>
>The system: Your choice air compressor. Feeds into an used
>residential A/C evaporator coil, the one that goes inside the furnace.
>This drops the temp of the heated air from the compressor and causes
>ALOT of the water to condense out. This feeds into a 40 micron 1/2"
>filter/water separater.
Max pressure and cold is great for filtering particulents because
spaces between molecules in minimum.
>Then to the pressure regulator which drops
>the pressure and by doing so cools the air thereby increasing relative
>humidity. This then feeds into a .6 micron coalescing (sp) filter
>which will remove the water "fog" that results from the
>pressure/temperature drop across the regulator. This then feeds into
>a homemade activated filter canister that removes the organic and oil
>vapors but not the CO if there should be any present, I don't think
>this is a problem though and I haave never had one with CO before
>either.
You prevent oil and other poison vapor problems by using oils and
seals that don't produce harmful vapors at the normal
operating temp of the compressor. Just make sure compressor cooling
system is working. High temp alarm at final compressor
output is nice. Inter stage gages help check that all of the stages
are working to prevent excess heat.
>
>This then feeds into a 40-50' 3/8" hose that goes up to a small
>filter/regulator that is attached to a belt around my waist. The bowl
>of the regulator has dry paper towels in it to absorb any condensate
>formed in the 3/8" hose. Attached to the downstream port of the
>regulator is a "T" fitting with a 1/4" ball valve on one side with a
>1/8" sealing (probably not necessary) quick disconnect. This feeds
>throgh a small clear plastic hose into a full face mask I made using
>foam rubber glued to a full face shield like those used for grinding
>etc. The foam seals completely aroung my face and forhead. The air
>flows across my face from top to bottom helping to remove any fog
>caused from my breath. I sealled some of the foam with RTV to help
>direct the airflow. The face shield has thin sheets of acrylic acroos
>the shield so paint can get on it and just be peeled away not harming
>the more expensive lexan shield.
A good commercial mask will flow the air across the face plate
through a valve into a oral nasal mask then out of a check
valve That flow path keeps the exhaled air off the face plate. The
exhaust valve is spring loaded to keep a little positive pressure
in mask.
>
>The other leg of the "T" has another 1/4" quick disconnect on it.
>This feeds a 1/4" hose right into my spray gun htat has a five or six
>foot whip hose on it. I can also feed this hose over my shoulder and
>down my arm if I'm spraying in a situation where the hose might hit
>the object.
>
>Works very good, The belt idea really helps in the hose handling
>department while walking around the car or whatever. The full face
>keeps the isocyanates out of your eyes and you'll never guess how bad
>the air around you is, until you take the mask off. It doesn't use
>much air from the compressor either, but if you have a small
>compressor to start with you may have problems. I did get isocyanates
>on my arm once. Made my arm feel really wierd for a day or two.
>Convinced me the stuff is seriously nasty!!!!
Best systems use pressure suit to prevent this. Impermeable coveralls
is good.
Lee Phillips
or an auto parts store that sells painting supplies. Price is about $400 and
up, depending on number of people supported, whether full suits are needed,
full face mask, etc. These systems are WELL WORTH it.
Lee
Ian Stirling <ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:941259081.6669.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> John Flanagan <jfla...@usit.net> wrote:
> >On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:03:30 GMT, rob.mcdon...@forth.org
> >(Robert McDonald) wrote:
>
> >>A while back, before I planned on spray painting, somebody posted
> >>information about a home made fresh air supply system. Is it on a web
> >>site? Can anybody provide a pointer to this information? I don't want
> >>to paint the inside of my lungs. TIA.
> <snip>
>
> >I've been told about the dangers of carbon monoxide using this system,
> >but that's ccrazy. I used it quite a bit with NO problems at all. A
> >more real problem is oil mists. I'm currently using an oiless 6HP air
> >compressor so no problenm there. Although I used to use the system
> >with a compressor that did use oil, still never saw or had ANY
> >problems.
>
> Some people do have problems with oil mists I believe.
>
> Wouldn't a cheap vacuum cleaner, with a long outlet host be rather
simpler?
>
> --
> http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for
sale.
> -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Sti
rling.
> If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science, it is opinion.
> -- Robert A
Heinlein.
Ian Stirling
Edward Haas
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Are tea plantations
Watch link rot in action! : steeped in tradition?
http://www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
John Flanagan
<ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Some people do have problems with oil mists I believe.
>
>Wouldn't a cheap vacuum cleaner, with a long outlet host be rather simpler?
That's what hte activated carbon filter is and the post filter
downstream from that to remove carbon dust. Your suggestion really
isn't simpler in that I needed a pure air (ie no oil and especially no
water, remember the $1200 paint job I ruined) system for spraying and
one for breathing so I combined them both into one system so the when
I'm spraying I have only one small 3/8" hose running up to my belt
instead of two if you were to use a separate system for breathing.
I had NO problems with either oil mists or carbon dust.
John
Glenn Ashmore
Edward Haas wrote:
> --There are plans for building same in the latest edition of FWW
Ed,
Which edition of FWW? I just got the December issue and there was a spray
booth but not a fresh air breather system.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore
David Berryhill
>
>
>Edward Haas wrote:
>
>> --There are plans for building same in the latest edition of FWW
>
>Ed,
>
>Which edition of FWW? I just got the December issue and there was a spray
>booth but not a fresh air breather system.
>
>--
>Glenn Ashmore
>
What is FWW?
Dave Berryhill
Ian Stirling
Well, I was meaning, assuming you have access to clean air.
I somehow managed to miss the dual nature of the system, it seemed
like massive overkill, for something that seems rather simple
(take air from a clean place, and pump it down a tube)
--
http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale.
-------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornfull tone, "It means
Just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -- Lewis Carrol
John Flanagan
<ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Well, I was meaning, assuming you have access to clean air.
>
>I somehow managed to miss the dual nature of the system, it seemed
>like massive overkill, for something that seems rather simple
>(take air from a clean place, and pump it down a tube)
I understand, my writing skills tend toward misunderstandings. In
fact I just finished reading something I had written a few days ago.
Made complete sense at the time at the time I wrote it but now I can
barely figure out what I myself was saying.
At the time that I built this system, which was quite awhile ago, it
was the easiest system for me to make since I didn't have many tools
to fabricate anything with. About the only metal tooling I had was an
O/A torch and a jig saw.
John
Glenn Ashmore
David Berryhill wrote:
> What is FWW?
Fine Wood Working
Robert McDonald
> --There are plans for building same in the latest edition of FWW
>--
> "Steamboat Ed" Haas : Are tea plantations
> Watch link rot in action! : steeped in tradition?
> http://www.nmpproducts.com
> ---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Ok, so what is "FWW" ?
Ron Natalie
Robert McDonald wrote:
> Ok, so what is "FWW" ?
Tauton Press's magazine "Fine Woodworking"