Corsair crash at Oshkosh
Bentwing1
Thanks,
Dave
MLenoch
Tom Cummings
The pilot was Ladd Doctor and was taken to the hospital.
Tom
Bentwing1 <bent...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990730000428...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
Jeff J
>
> Does anyone know which Corsair and who was flying it that crashed at Oshkosh?
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
Hello all -- I posted these two comments over on RMS, one last night and
one this morning -- just thought I might add a bit of insight to this
tradgedy on RAR (I normally just lurk over here) if I can:
I too was there, unfortunately, about 200 yards from the whole godawful,
tragic thing and hate to be the bearer of bad news.
First thing, as hard as it was to believe from the accident itself and
as Al mentioned earlier, the pilot was in critical condition at last
report. I and thousands of other horrified spectators could have sworn
he had little chance, but that is what several radio stations were
reporting on the way back down to Chicago from Oshkosh. Let's hope the
rugged frame of the Corsair pulled another pilot through as it did for
so many in WWII and Korea...
This is the scoop-- the bird was an F4U-4 -- this is the actual aircraft
right here:
<http://www.web-birds.com/f4u/f4u-2.jpg>
Painted in non-descript "VF-92" markings -- The last info I have on BuNO
97280 that it was owned by World Jet of Ft. Lauderdale, FL. The pilot
was wearing the exact same thing as shown in this photo -- green flight
suit, silver-gray crash helmet. I was no more than 30 feet from the
corsair flight line (4 u-birds) when they all pulled the props through,
fired up their R-2800's in unison and proceeded to taxi out to the
active. I got several pics of each bird as they passed by me.
This was the scenario:
4 corsairs in two pair (first: F4U-4, F4U-5 second: CAF FG-1D, LSFM
FG-1D) were going to take off behind two bearcats. One of the F8F's
(lead) was Howard Pardue's #14
(<http://www.airventure.org/99/performers/howard_pardue.html> &
<http://www.web-birds.com/f8f/f8f_2.jpg>)and the other was owned by a
fellow from Indiana.
What happened:
The two front pair corsairs, the aforementioned -4 and -5, started their
takeoff rolls and got their tails up though the bearcats *had not*
cleared the runway and were basically idling (I do not know if there was
an abort or they simply hadn't been signaled to begin their takeoff
roll). The corsairs were gathering speed -- this was all obliquely
surreal as nearly everybody saw the ineluctable collision coming -- the
-4 went right through the middle of the two F8F's missing the trail one
on the right side by inches, but hitting Pardue left-hand side lead F8F
on the right wing with the F4U's left wing -- the force of collision,
the torque of the 2800 and a very brisk crosswind all worked against the
-4 pilot and he rolled it over onto the center grass median. As it was
hitting the ground it burst into flame and the R-2800 detached
completely. Again, it did not come down on the runway, but on the center
grass median/hollow. The F4U-5 pilot flying wing managed to get
violently to the right of the other Bearcat with some serious rudder and
deflected horizontals and he went into soft grass on the right.
Basically he did a mild ground loop and saved his life and the life of
the second Bearcat pilot by doing so. He managed to taxi back to the
flight line under his own power -- damage to his bird: wrinkled skin on
the outer/topside left wing tip (from it bumping the grass) and what
looked like a slightly deformed/bent left-hand lg strut to my eye.
The whole macabre episode was obviously a tragic miscommunication. Total
injury -- human and machine:
--One very badly hurt F4U-4 pilot
--BuNo 97280 F4U-4 totally destroyed
--Pardue's F8F-1 has about 3-4 feet of right wing left -- although the
amputated main outer wing was visible and seemed to be fairly intact on
the ground.
--The F4U-5 (maybe somebody knows more about this particular bird - it
is spuriously painted in Phil DeLong's #5 *F4U-4* VMF-312 scheme of the
Korean War -- yes, the scheme on the back of the newer Squad-Sig F4U in
action booklet) was damaged as reported above.
*The other F8F and pilot were unscathed and the pilot (I apologize for
forgetting his name) seemed very steady, though understandably drawn and
pale when I talked to him briefly after the whole thing.
* The last pair -- the two following FG-1D's -- had not started their
takeoff rolls and were uninvolved.
You all will see many taped versions of this accident. It happened
directly in front of the control tower and the announcer's booth, not to
mention a very large crowd. I saw at least 6 or 7 different taped
replays talking with other camcording spectators and walking by three
news vans. I talked to a reporter from WBAY-2 (which I believe is Green
Bay's station) and showed him on various tapes what the different planes
were, the vintage of each, where the fuel is stored, etc. As for
accuracy in media, I had to tell said reporter about 5 times that
corsairs do not have ejection seats -- he had heard that the pilot had
managed to eject.
A remarkably sad day at Oshkosh all in all, the accident casting a pall
over everything.......
God help the pilot of the -4.
Later I posted:
I have some updated info -- the F4U-4 was from the Cavanaugh Flight
Museum. Here is its page on their website:
<http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/Aircraft/Corsair/Page1.html>
It looks like we have lost a warbird that was a veteran of two wars.
The pilot as I posted earlier was Laird Doctor. He is apparently the
Director and Chief Pilot of the CFM. He is also involved with the T-6
racing association. He is listed here:
<http://www.airshows.org/convention/othe_dele_98.html>
<http://acro.harvard.edu/IAC/airshows/CHAP-49.TXT>
<http://www.airshows.org/performers/warbird_acts053199.html>
and talked about in this article:
<http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Mag/Index/1992/AM/tlps.html>
The best place to find updates on his condition is likely here:
<http://www.wbay.com/>
or
<http://www.nbc26.com/News/News.htm>
He is was still in critical condition as of this morning...and had been
taken down to a hospital in Milwaukee.
Best
Jeff
Jeff
MLenoch
The crashed Corsair pilot was talking all the way to the hospital in Milwaukee.
He is talking today with partial mobility. Only time will tell his ability to
recover full mobility. He of course does not remember what happened.
(Info from a friend who visited him today)
V. Lenoch
Bill Kistler
who recreated the Amilia Earhart flight) and had heart surgery. Just
when things start looking up.
Bill.
David Stinson
And another two bite the dust...
and another one's gone....
and another one's gone...
and another two bite the dust...
Sincere regrets for the destruction of irreplaceable history
and irreplaceable people.
D. Stinson
(Indignant replies by the rude and ignorant cheerfully ignored.)
Craig C.
>> WARBIRDS COLLIDE...
I wouldn't count Pardue's Bearcat as gone....I would be willing to be
that it is back in the air before Christmas this year. As to CFM's
F4-U....more like 2-3 years before it flies again. the other F4-U that
was damaged will probably be back in pristine shape before the first
of the year.
Craig
MLenoch
>Sincere regrets for the destruction of irreplaceable history
>and irreplaceable people.
>
Kinda premature aren't ya?
Juan Jimenez
Flying Museum at Meacham Field in Fort Worth, Texas. Is this true?
Randy Wilson
will provide the info.
Randy
Juan Jimenez <fly...@home.com> wrote in message
news:37A3A117...@home.com...
BrokenSpar
I think the word is immature.
remove "stopspam" to email me
F7FTCAT
fair amount of distortion to the center section and fuselage. It will be
rebuilt, but I imagine it will have to be "jigged" from nose to tail to get it
perfectly straight once again. Wing panels are hard to find for Bearcats, so I
imagine one might have to be scratch built.
As for the F4U-5 that was taking off next to Lad, he did one amazing piece of
pilot work keeping his and Tom Wood's F8F in one piece. Kudos to you, whoever
you are.
I really do not like to point fingers at a time like this but, every one of
these guys have a lot of stick time in big iron. Given the non-existant forward
visability of the Corsair while on the ground, I do not think that Lad would
have attempted his takeoff without getting a signal from the tower or whoever
was doing the "runway control".
Did we have someone doing the controlling who could not tell the difference
between an F4U and an F8F and told the wrong airplanes to take off first? If
this turns out to be the case, the EAA better take a serious look at who they
use for this responsibility in the future. I know their airshow schedule is
tight and close formation takeoffs are impressive, but is it really necessary
to have rows of aircraft stacked up on the end of the runway? I have never been
to Oshkosh so I do not profess to know, but I am asking just the same.
Vlado, maybe you can educate me on this as you are an old hand at this sort of
thing.
Best regards,
Paul Varga
Craig C.
>Initial word is that Howard's Bearcat was twisted by the impact with a pretty
>fair amount of distortion to the center section and fuselage. It will be
>rebuilt, but I imagine it will have to be "jigged" from nose to tail to get it
>perfectly straight once again. Wing panels are hard to find for Bearcats, so I
>imagine one might have to be scratch built.
Nelson probably already has some jigging built for Howard's Bearcat,
as he has done considerable work on it for years. With the talent in
his shop, a complete new wing will take only a couple of weeks to
build up, depending on whatever backlog is in the shop right now.
Craig
Dave Sutton
> And another two bite the dust...
>
> and another one's gone....
> and another one's gone...
Dear David "Ham Radio Wannabe Expert Do-Nothing Complainer" :
Fuck Off.
Regards to all, apologies to none.
Dave Sutton dsu...@redstaraviation.org
Yak-50, Fouga Magister, DeHavilland Vampire, MiG-17
"There is no substitute for horsepower...."
Chris Dixon
the TV coverage and would like to see what everyone is getting so excited
about
Thanks
Chris
Tim Savage
All three of the planes involved in this accident will fly again.
You must be a complete ass to post this kind of stuff when a man's life was
hanging in the balance in a Milwaukee hospital.
To refresh my memory again David, what aircraft have you saved from the
smelter recently?
David Stinson wrote in message <37A38BA1...@ix.netcom.com>...
>> WARBIRDS COLLIDE...
>
>And another two bite the dust...
>
>and another one's gone....
>and another one's gone...
>
>and another two bite the dust...
>
>Sincere regrets for the destruction of irreplaceable history
>and irreplaceable people.
>
David Stinson
Since your letter wasn't THAT rude, I'll answer-
Tim Savage wrote:
>
> Once again David has proven how little he knows about the warbird movement.
On the contrary;
The "warbird movement" as *you* define it is composed of a few
very wealthy individuals who are decidedly intolerant of
anyone who has a view different from theirs.
Their entourage of toadies and bootlicks provide a ready party
to lynch anyone with a different point of view about historic warbirds.
They allow volunteers to give years of work and donate thousands of
dollars
worth parts to "their" bird so they can climb into it and screw it
into the ground while hot-dogging at air shows.
Oh yes.... I know all about the "warbird movement" as defined
by people like you and Mr. Sutton.
> All three of the planes involved in this accident will fly again.
No... three REPLICAS will fly. The actual historic aircraft
or such parts of it as were in that aircraft are now cinders.
> You must be a complete ass to post this kind of stuff when a man's life was
> hanging in the balance in a Milwaukee hospital.
Perhaps you are handicapped when it comes to reading.
I posted my sincere regrets at both the loss of history and the
injury and/or loss of people. Of course, it suits your
purposes to misrepresent my words... see above.
> To refresh my memory again David, what aircraft have you saved from the
> smelter recently?
Mr. Sutton knows full well that I contribute to the limits of my means,
so his charge of "do nothing" is false. Perhaps he is unconcerned
about uttering falsehood.
But for your education, my contributions
have been going on since 1984:
Donation of materials to CAF Wing in Vegas (A-26)
(was a member of the wing while I was there).
Donations of materials to Canadian restoration groups.
Donations of materials to U.S.S. Pamapanito.
Donations of materials to U.S.S. Texas.
Donations of materials to U.S.S. Missouri.
Donations of time and materials to 6147th Tac. CoM group "Mosquitos."
Donations of materials to 8th Air Force museum (years ago).
Donations of research and materials to Signal Corps Museum Ft. Gordon
and various other projects I can't remember now.
I have children to raise and make a modest living.
But I do what is in my power to help
save history from the dump.
I love watching replica warbirds fly.
But every time an authentic warbird is destroyed
so some rich boy can show his testosterone levels,
it's a loss for all mankind.
Here's my question to the people like you and Mr. Sutton:
How DARE you belittle the efforts of those of use who
aren't wealthy enough to buy a warbird outright??
Where the heck would you be if it weren't for us
"little people" who dig around in dirty old barns and
find the pieces for "your" birds?
You are arrogant, intolerant and close-minded people.
Tell you what-- you preserve history as you see fit,
and I'll do and say what I see fit. Deal?
Regards,
Dave Stinson
ar...@ix.netcom.com
Jeff J
>
> I wouldn't count Pardue's Bearcat as gone....I would be willing to be
> that it is back in the air before Christmas this year. As to CFM's
> F4-U....more like 2-3 years before it flies again. the other F4-U that
> was damaged will probably be back in pristine shape before the first
> of the year.
>
> Craig
As I stated earlier, I was about 200 yds. from the accident -- this
corsair is seriously wrenched apart with extensive burn damage as well
-- it will need a major rebuild with new manufacture spares and/or many
additional parts coming from other aircraft -- that, or it will be a
limited source of spares for other rebuilds.
The F8F's airframe is damaged other than the wing -- I took several
pictures of it after the collision -- metal twisting/torquing certainly
occured -- nevertheless, it's definitely rebuildable.....
Best
Jeff
Craig C.
a lot snipped here....
Ah...Dave.....lets not waste too much energy and bust a gasket. He
will never understand why we spend our bucks and enjoy what we do. By
his definition, there are no warbirds in existance anywhere in the
world except for those at the end of the production line that haven't
been through any testing. I worked on more than 1700 F-16's at
Lockheed and there was not a single one that ever left the factory
with exactly the same equipment on it that it had on the line....EVER!
BTW...one of these days, I am going to make it a mission to see all of
your toys....
Craig
Jeff J
I posted this link earlier to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel -- there is
some video of the accident, though it is after the collision itself:
<http://www.jsonline.com/news/eaa/>
Jeff
Jeff J
> All three of the planes involved in this accident will fly again.
I hope you are right. Having been at Oshkosh and seen the damage
firsthand -- the -4 may fly again, but it will little of the original.
I know the warbird cottage industries perform miracles everyday, so
let's hope this combat vet
(<http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/Aircraft/Corsair/Page1.html>)
folds down her wings and fires up the 2800 again some day. As for the
F8F, see my previous comments -- seriously damaged, but doable. The -5
as far as I could tell after examining it closely post-accident (though
it was coned off and guarded by 13-year CAP kids in camo who told me not
to take pictures of it, though it was right back in the flight line) had
damage limited to wrikled skin on the left top outer wing panel and
possibly some minor strut damage -- although there certainly may be
damage not visible to the naked eye --(Does anybody know whether this
bird was trucked home or what?) and so may be in the air again *very*
soon.....
> You must be a complete ass to post this kind of stuff when a man's life was
> hanging in the balance in a Milwaukee hospital.
Here's an update of his condition from the WBAY-Channel 2 Green Bay
website:
"Wife of Injured EAA Pilot Speaks Publicly
The wife of the pilot who was critically injured at the Experimental
Aircraft Association's convention says she's not concerned with what
caused the accident. Linda Finch Doctor says she's just occupied with
the condition of her husband, Laird Doctor, who remains in critical but
stable condition at a Milwaukee-area hospital.
Doctor's World War II-era plane did a cartwheel and burst into flames
after it hit another plane on the runway. Linda Finch Doctor says she's
communicating with her husband by lip-reading. That's difficult,
considering he has a respirator and tubes in his mouth.
She says the pilot's most major injury was to the vertebrae. She says
it'll be at least a few weeks before the hospital will know whether
Doctor will be permanently paralyzed."
Let's keep him in our thoughts...
Craig C.
>As I stated earlier, I was about 200 yds. from the accident -- this
>corsair is seriously wrenched apart with extensive burn damage as well
>-- it will need a major rebuild with new manufacture spares and/or many
>additional parts coming from other aircraft -- that, or it will be a
>limited source of spares for other rebuilds.
>The F8F's airframe is damaged other than the wing -- I took several
>pictures of it after the collision -- metal twisting/torquing certainly
>occured -- nevertheless, it's definitely rebuildable.....
Jeff...You need to see what Nelson can do. He and his small crew
completely rebuilt the CAF's SB2C after the devastating crash. It was
a complete write-off as the fuselage was broken in three places and
the center section was virtually mangled. I dont' think that they had
more than 2-3 years shop labor in that rebuild. Some of the guys that
work for Nelson can fab things so fast it will make your head
spin...and it is perfect too.
The F4-U has only one area that is difficult to fab and that is the
wing center section and cockpit area. Everything behind the rear spar
is relatively simple. Those guys should be able to make the necessary
tools and fab the entire aft fuselage and tail assembly in a matter of
just a couple of weeks. The structure back there is simple and there
is not much to it. As to the center section, I will be willing to bet
that the main spar is the time limiter there.
Above all, got to remember that during the war these were being
stamped out at rates exceeding one per hour. Granted they had lots of
people and the tooling already... Dedication and experience and drive
can make for lots to happen.
Craig
Craig C.
>I talked to someone today that helped pick up the Corsair and he said that
>there was NO burn damage, it was fuel buring, not the plane.
>Matt Gunsch,
> A&P, IA,Private Pilot
>EAA Warbirds of America,
>North American Trainer Assoc.
>Cactus Squadron Flight Team,
> Flying the North American T-6 Texan
>Dragonfly Tri-Gear
>Piper Colt project underway
>GWRRA
>NRA
Makes a rebuild easier then. Flamed aluminum tends to create some
hidden problems and slows things down. Hopefully, all three will be
back in the air soon
Craig
David Stinson
Thank you for proving everything I said about you
was on-target.
I haven't said anything about Mr. Doctor,
other then I regret he was hurt.
And you know it.
I have protested the destruction of historic aircraft.
I wonder why you can't stand that?
It suits your purposes to say otherwise so you can beat
your chest and show your buddies what a big man you are.
I thought most of us had out-grown these high school
displays of "Oh yeah? Well meet me after school
and I'll whip ya!" bully talk.
I guess a few of us haven't reach adulthood yet.
Look, Dave--
I'm very, very sorry your friend is hurt.
I really, really hope he recovers and his bird flys again.
I didn't say he, personally, did anything wrong-- I don't know that.
I protest the destruction of *any* warbird, in my own way.
And you *do* belittle my efforts and, by extension,
everyone elses. Read your own words again.
Take a few deep breaths, Dave.
Other people are not always going to agree 100% with you.
Get used to it.
Sincerely,
Dave Stinson
ar...@ix.netcom.com
ralph peterson
that he posts after a accident, which always seems in bad taste,
"protest" or not. I also read in Mr.Stinson's postings a lot of anger
and attempts to get attention by stating contrary off the wall comments
to the mainstream thread on "Warbirds". I feel that Mr. Stinson hasn't
come to the realisation that it may be attitude and not one's finacial
standings that has kept him from enjoying the "Warbird " group. It sort
of bothers me that he has chosen himself to be the spokesman of the
"little guy". I, being in the "little guy" catagory. its fine to do a
personal crusade but PLEASE do not claim that you do it for "the little
guy". Also , since I happen to know several "Warbird" owners, I do not
like being deemed as a "bootlicker or "toady". As for your
attack on Mr. Sutton, Why the name calling? I do not know either of
you but In Mr. Suttons favor, he graciously provided me with some
information on how to fix a unknown brake problem and has thus prevented
a rare a/c from possible destruction. He did not ask my bank balance
before making me privy to the information . So that counters your
charge of only rich people getting use out of the "Warbird" group. In
closing, going back to the item on calling attention to yourself, we ALL
donate parts and labor without making noise about it. so please quit
reminding folks about your radios. If you do not like being the majority
of one on the discussion group, please quit posting your little song
because you speak for no one but yourself. If you flew, you would see
how offensive your ditty is. Just an opinion.
Craig C.
all snipped for brevity....
Ya got to get out more Jeff......the industry is growing by leaps and
bounds. Capabilities are always on the upward move. there are probably
at least 2 dozen excellent shops scattered around the US that do this
work normally. There are probably another hundred that are as serious
about the birds, but haven't reached the peak yet.
There is always room for the shop with people that are craftsmen and
that really care about the work that they do...be it a warbird or a
spamcan. With the cosnstant reduction in major a/c companies and the
aging of the workforce that knows how to do a lot of the processes
that were used before the days of CNC and CAM, it is us...the little
guys that have to carry on. With more than 30,000 hours under my belt
as an aircraft mechanic, test engineer, designer, fabricator, pilot,
mod specialist, machinist, and more, I still don't know enough and I
still rate most of my skills as only slightly better than a butcher. I
keep after it and am always willing to try something new or learn a
new skill. In fact, our plans are to move back to the deep boonies and
build the air park and get our little fab shop back up and producing
parts and a/c again. Maybe, by the time I get close to permanent
retirement, I will condider myself a craftsman....
Lament over....let's go back to playing airplanes again (grin).
Craig
Craig C.
>Craig C. wrote:
>> Jeff J <j.l...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> all snipped for brevity....
>>
>> Ya got to get out more Jeff......the industry is growing by leaps and
>> bounds.
>Sounds like it ... thanks for the excellent synopsis of where the
>rebuilding, restoration, re-man and new-man scene is going......love to
>hear it.
>Jeff
Don't just stand there.....join it.....find something to fix...or
build....the more the merrier and the more a/c resurected
too...Heheheheh......
Craig
Dave Sutton
> David Stinson <ar...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> How DARE you belittle the efforts of those of use who
> aren't wealthy enough to buy a warbird outright??
Dear pissant jealous wannabe do-nothing:
How dare you laugh and dance at the side of the hospital bed of a -friend- of
mine, all the while thinking you somehow 'contribute' to the Warbird movement
by donating crappy junk radios to whomever wants them?
Not belittling the efforts of anyone that volunteer graciously. Just belittling the
opinions of jerkoffs that insult friends of mine that put their asses on the line
and pay the cost of their love, while whackos sit behind computers
and act the expert while risking nothing. Perhaps you might be interested
to know that Lad Doctor -did not- and -never- (AFAIK) own -any-
warbird, he just -volunteered- to fly one for the museum and was allowed
to do so because of his -skill- and -enthusiasm-, not his wallet. Think about
that for a bit, and compare his ability to your own pathetic 'volunteerism' efforts.
Lad hung around the Cavanaugh for years, doing all of the crappy jobs that
nobody else wanted to do, and worked his way up the ladder to be a display
pilot, and a darned good one.
> Where the heck would you be if it weren't for us
> "little people" who dig around in dirty old barns and
> find the pieces for "your" birds?
I'd be doing -exactly- what I do now, scrounging up the parts myself.
What you do is childs play compared to scrounging up airplanes....
The doers need whackos like you like they need rubber dogshit.
Without people like you we would all have a lot more fun, and
a lot less hassle. Why don't you do us -all- a favor and stick to
collecting junk and quit pretending that -anyone- cares that
you were the first to empty your crap-box of old rusted radios onto the
hangar floor of some museum?
> You are arrogant, intolerant and close-minded people.
> Tell you what-- you preserve history as you see fit,
> and I'll do and say what I see fit. Deal?
No. You are entitled to your opinon, however, like my old Grandpop
said: "Opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one". Yours is worth zippo.
Your continued criticism of those that fly 'em is typical sour grapes. Nothing more.
To add: I bet you would think twice about voicing your opinions while not hiding
behind your computer. I believe that reciting your obscene ditty in the company
of any friend of Lads would put you at risk of a bloody nose, if not worse.
Now, be a good chap and fuck off like previously requested, eh??
N329DF
>corsair is seriously wrenched apart with extensive burn damage as well
>-- it will need a major rebuild with new manufacture spares and/or many
>additional parts coming from other aircraft
I talked to someone today that helped pick up the Corsair and he said that
MLenoch
The F4U-5:
> --(Does anybody know whether this
>bird was trucked home or what?)
It is being flown out of Oshkosh.
(Dave: does this mean it is junked? should we smelt it down for you now?)
David Stinson
that were civil and adult. I may not agree, but
you didn't tell me to "f*** off" or childishly beat your chest
and threaten to give me a "whuppin."
I appreciate your civil discourse and will respond in kind.
First, I must insist that if people are going to take me
to task for my words, that they *read* them.
I'm constantly amazed at how some people will
come back at me with things I didn't say--
I guess it's a need on their part to find something- anything,
about which to be offended.
I never said every "little person" was a "toady."
I said a few of the "leaders" around have an entourage of toadies
who attack others who have a differing opinion from their masters.
Unless you feel you fall into that category, you have
no valid reason for offense on that point.
Second, I never said I spoke for you. I cannot be
responsible for inappropriate internalization of
points in a conversation that did not include you.
There are other cases where you've put words in my mouth
so you can have some grounds for offense, but these
are enough to make the point. As for the "name calling,"
I suggest you read Mr. Sutton's remarks to me.
I think I was quite constrained considering his behavior.
I know he's hurting over the injury of his friend.
What normal human being wouldn't? But that's no excuse
to go off, yelling and cursing at me over things I clearly
and demonstrably did NOT say. The charge of "dancing and laughing"
at the bedside of a seriously injured person is pretty despicable
and was done purely as a display to his audience.
I post my "little ditty" as some people call it, because
I believe there needs to be at least one, small voice
protesting the destruction of historic aircraft.
That's all. Period. Nothing is ever said about any
pilot other than regrets that he was hurt or lost.
Some people "spin" that into whatever will display their
machismo to the audience. That sort of thing impressed
me in grade school, but I've kinda grown out of it now.
However,
I have been in contact with a gentleman who does
know how to discuss our differences like adults.
He convinces me that perhaps this "little ditty" is
not the best way to protest this destruction.
Therefore, I've decided to find a less abrasive way to
make the same point. I'm still going to stick my
hand up every time I hear about a warbird being destroyed-
we all have to do what we think is right-
but perhaps something with less "edge" would do better.
As for Mr. Sutton- I'm told he's actually a decent guy
when he's not puffing and blowing and yelling.
I'll let him have "the last word" if it will restore the peace.
Sincerely,
Dave Stinson
ar...@ix.netcom.com
Jeff J
Craig C. wrote:
> n32...@aol.com (N329DF) wrote:
>
> >I talked to someone today that helped pick up the Corsair and he said that
> >there was NO burn damage, it was fuel buring, not the plane.
>
> >Matt Gunsch
>
>
> Makes a rebuild easier then. Flamed aluminum tends to create some
> hidden problems and slows things down. Hopefully, all three will be
> back in the air soon
>
> Craig
This is all *very* good to hear -- believe me, I was not trying to be a
party-pooper with my analysis -- I love u-birds -- I used to be very up to date
on the miracles the small warbird industries could perform -- sounds as though
they have only gotten better in the last 5 or 6 years (I have not kept with the
"scene" as much during this time). I guess in light of the facts you guys have
laid out, the accident and the aftermath superficially looked much worse than
they actually were.
Hope to see the -4 back in the air soon -- it pained me when there was only one
corsair left on the line on Sunday vs. 4 on Thursday morning....
Best
Jeff
Jeff J
MLenoch wrote:
> The F4U-5:
>
> > --(Does anybody know whether this
> >bird was trucked home or what?)
>
> It is being flown out of Oshkosh.
>
Damn good to hear......
Jeff
Drew
>
> > David Stinson <ar...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> > And another two bite the dust...
> >
> > and another one's gone....
> > and another one's gone...
>
>
> Fuck Off.
>
> Regards to all, apologies to none.
>
>
> Yak-50, Fouga Magister, DeHavilland Vampire, MiG-17
> "There is no substitute for horsepower...."
Well said.
Jeff J
Lloyd Watson
You miss the point while the your words produce evidence of your lack of
sensitivity of the human endeavor to preserve and provide flying examples of
historical pieces of items that fought and many died so that you can use the
crasp and shallow comments about an accident that is still not defined by the
NTSB.
As to the cause and to a life that stills lies in a bed in critical condition
without memory of the event is still clinging to life not to mention the pain
the family and friends are sharing.
You miss the purpose and the desire and the effort by many that will continue
by all to allow future generations long after you have gone to see, touch,
smell, hear and formulate a desire to understand the price that many in the
past have paid for your freedom to express just how much you have learned and
how much you appreciate the price that so many paid.
My prayer is for you to someday understand that it not the metal, not the
design, not the parts that fly but the men and that effort ..... yes even for
you......
Tim Savage wrote:
> Once again David has proven how little he knows about the warbird movement.
> All three of the planes involved in this accident will fly again.
>
> You must be a complete ass to post this kind of stuff when a man's life was
> hanging in the balance in a Milwaukee hospital.
>
> To refresh my memory again David, what aircraft have you saved from the
> smelter recently?
>
> David Stinson wrote in message <37A38BA1...@ix.netcom.com>...
> >> WARBIRDS COLLIDE...
> >
> >And another two bite the dust...
> >
> >and another one's gone....
> >and another one's gone...
> >
Bela P. Havasreti
wrote:
<snip>
>I love watching replica warbirds fly.
>But every time an authentic warbird is destroyed
>so some rich boy can show his testosterone levels,
>it's a loss for all mankind.
<snip>
>Regards,
>Dave Stinson
>ar...@ix.netcom.com
Dave,
Why do you insist that warbird owners are rich boys?
Most of the guys I know are just average guys. Most drive
older cars and live in modest homes. They do this (sacrifice?)
so they can own/fly their dream machines. My newest car is
a 1981 model. I bought my house for $107K. I go to work
every day just like millions of other folks.
Not to belittle your contributions to the warbird movement but the
1st thing the vast majority of us do is take out heavy, old military
radios (and related hardware) and get rid of it. Let the guys trying
to win best whatever at Oshkosh pack their warbirds with hundreds
of pounds of useless "original" radio gear...
In the interest of safety (weight / performance), no un-needed / extra
weight is going into my airplane to satisfy some judge for a few
extra points at an airshow....
Warbirds are machines and are piloted by human beings. There
are going to be crashes. Get over it....
I pray for the U-bird pilot and his family.
Bela P. Havasreti CP-ASEL-I
SNJ-5 BuNo 91077 Basket case
NATA member #1742
EAA Warbirds of America (Cascade Warbirds Squadron #2)
Warbirds Worldwide
Puyallup, Washington USA
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2951
Lloyd Watson
Gilbey69
GILB...@AOL.COM...CARE OF CINBADS AVIATION SOCIET"E
SEE OUR ADD
WE HOLD PARTS FOR CORSAIRS
IN OUR COLLECTION AND MAY HELP
Jeff J
>
> I talked to someone today that helped pick up the Corsair and he said that
> there was NO burn damage, it was fuel buring, not the plane.
>
>
Matt and all,
Here are some detailed pics of the aftermath for all three birds. You're
friend was right, the wreckage does look remarkably free of burn damage and
more intact that I would have thought given the accident -- the U-bird is one
tough SOB......
<http://www.avweb.com/oshkosh/osh99/day3/corsair/>
Best
Jeff
Dave Sutton
> The charge of "dancing and laughing"
> at the bedside of a seriously injured person is pretty despicable
> and was done purely as a display to his audience.
Read your own words, pissant:
> > >And another two bite the dust...
> > >and another one's gone....
> > >and another one's gone...
> > >and another two bite the dust...
How would you like to walk up to Lad's wife and repeat that?
How about at the Cavanaugh Museum? I think that down Texas Way
they would reply with a good old fashoned tarring and feathering. It's
far better than you deserve. Tell ya what: Have enough guts to walk up
to -anyone- at the Oshkosh Warbirds area and say that, and see if you
escape with your person intact. Coward hiding behind a keyboard,
that's all you are. Pathetic.
> As for Mr. Sutton- I'm told he's actually a decent guy
> when he's not puffing and blowing and yelling.
> I'll let him have "the last word" if it will restore the peace.
Yup, and it remains the same as what I said first. Your comments
and theories are unworthy of serious comment, and I am surprised at
myself for stooping to dignify them with my response. I would be ashamed
at myself to consider a person like you as worthy of my friendship.
Charles Downing
Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely.)
For crying out loud guys, this is no place to carry out an argument.
One, that I or no one else enjoy reading.
This is susposed to be an area of info. Not one to satisfy someones ego
trips.
So do all of us a favor! Carry your fight out to the private sector of E-
mail, then the rest of us can get on with our lives.
For the info of both of you I too am a warbird enthusiast and work for a
living. Which BTW is in the Aviation Maintenance Field.
-**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?b ****-
Real Discussions for Real People
David Stinson
Charles Downing wrote:
>...
> For crying out loud guys, this is no place to carry out an argument.
You're absolutely right, Charles.
Zipping my yap on this argument.
Regards,
Dave Stinson
Dave Sutton
> Zipping my yap on this argument.
A tactical retreat by a vanquished coward. Better known
as running away when one is unable to continue to
defend ones position. Applicable to the conduct of
debate as well as the conduct of war. See Sun Pin's
writing on the "General's Losses" in Military Methods
(8th century BC). The 26th rule: "If he focuses on
harming others and relies on ambushes and deceit
he can be defeated".
The best rules to live ones life by are no different now
than 2800 years ago. But it's generally over the head
of the unlearned whackos. Honesty, integrity, fortitude,
forbearance, and respect are the rules to live by. Something
to contemplate when you next decide to disrespect the
people that make this endeavor a success by publicly gloating
when inevitable setbacks occur.
Jim Vandervort
points out how the strong man stumbled or how the
doer of deeds might have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood;
who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again
and again; who knows the great enthusiams, the great
devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who,
if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and
who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly,
so that his place shall never be with those cold and
timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
"The Man in the Arena'
JimV.
Dave Sutton <nospam....@redstaraviation.org> wrote in message
news:Sr1q3.6$bi1.1199@nntp1...
David Stinson
latest display, but I will send my reply via
private email for the sake of the list.
I'm asking Dave to have the decency to do the same.
Dave S.
David Stinson
Dave S.
Paul Mcgr
with all due respect to what you saw from 200 yards out...I have a close friend
of mine who helped with the wreckage recovery and he showed me photos of
Yes..broken parts, but nothing that would be considered a "write-off".
Also...the wreckage from what I have seen of the photo's is not at all badly
burned. So I figure that combined with what I have been told and what I can
see...this aircraft will fly again...altough not for at least 4-5 years or so.
I have been told from a very reliable person that the CFM is going to have it
rebuilt. So...we can wait and watch and hope that it will be done as good as it
was before the wreck.
Thanks for letting me bend your ear...
Warm Regards,
Paul
P.S.--The Machine can be rebuilt ....the Man is irreplacable....let us hope
that they BOTH will fly once more
Paul Mcgr
Forgive me if I use the term Mister in your reference loosley but there are
some of us that for reasons of their own choose to do the work and partake of
the benefits of aiding those who fly and own these craft. Myself have had many
opportunities to do just that on almost every type of flyable piston engine
warbird out there. And I CHOOSE to do so, which is my God given right to do. I
do it for historical perspective and my own piece of mind. I have almost 20
years as a licensed A&P mechanic and although I work on the jets that may haul
YOU around. I get more enjoyment out of choosing to do this work on the WW II
types for FREE, than I do for my 40 + hoursa week where I earn my living. I am
personally doing a ground up restoration on a T-6G for a close friend. No
money...and I would be happy if I got ONE flight in the thing...seeing a Job
Well Done. That is pride. And have participated in NUMEROUS aircraft types
maintenance whether being brought back to life from long term storage or their
annual inspection. So please. Sir...get oof your high horse...
Paul
MLenoch
It may be sooner than that. Large substantial pieces are intact. See:
www.avweb.com for their Oshkosh crash photos section. You'll be surprised how
big those chunks are.
V. Lenoch
Bentwing1
will be payed the current market value by the insurance company. This will be
based on the price of those recently sold, approx.
$850,000 to $900,000. At which time the aircraft will probably be sold to the
highest offer by the new owners(the insurance company). Cavanaugh and company
will use the money to purchase the next available Corsair (or other aircraft of
their choice). For you see it would be much cheeper and faster to purchase a
flyer than restore the wreckage of the F4U-4. It will take a number of years
and approx. a $1,000,000 to $1,500,000 to restore the one that was stuffed. I
doubt it will be restored anytime soon. If there are any doubters mark your
calenders and watch!
Regards,
Dave Etchell
MLenoch
>will be payed the current market value by the insurance company.
>Cavanaugh and company
>will use the money to purchase the next available Corsair
That is if he had hull insurance. Not all fleet owners have this, as they
would rather self-insure.
Dave Sutton
Mr Stinson's emails are deleted by my mail system unread
as he is a member of my select list of "nonpersons" that include
such notables as Ralphie (AKA 'Roswell') and other trolls of the
same ilk.
Dave Sutton
Cowards do behind closed doors what
brave men do in public.
Dave Sutton
> It is not the critic who counts, not the one who
> points out how the strong man stumbled or how the
> doer of deeds might have done better. The credit
> belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
> whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood;
> who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again
> and again; who knows the great enthusiams, the great
> devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who,
> if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and
> who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly,
> so that his place shall never be with those cold and
> timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
>
> "The Man in the Arena'
>
> JimV.
Indeed, and well said. In the same lines as these lines:
"Cowards die many times before their deaths,
but the brave only taste of death but once"
Bob Granvin
Ah.... But this depends on how your insurance is written, assuming
that hull insurance existed on the aircraft at all ... Most don't have
it because of the cost.
The Confederate Air Force purchased catastrophic hull insurance a couple
of years ago for the first time for its aircraft. This kind of insurance
-only- pays off if the aircraft is considered a total loss (i.e., the
cost of repair exceeds the market value/rebuild cost of the loss).
In May, 1998, a major storm of strange and incredible proportions literally
tore through the entire Twin Cities and did major amounts of damage all
through the area (houses damaged/destroyed, power out for up to 10+ days,
trees down everywhere, etc.) The storm not only pushed in (fortunately
not completely!) the hangar doors of our WWII bowstring hangar, it also
nearly blew out the other end.
However, along with several other aircraft, the Southern Minnesota Wing's
PBY-6A Catalina was torn free of its anchors and flipped over sideways.
The aircraft landed on top of its wing, also crushing the tail. (An
upside down PBY with 104' wingspan sitting on he ramp is a strange and
emotionally crushing experience, by the way...)
An adjuster declared it a total and paid off on the insurance. According
to the terms of the insurance the CAF purchased, we receive the payoff
PLUS we keep the aircraft.
The damage was extensive, and in a -commercial- environment, the restoration
costs may have been far too high to warrant an effort, but the CAF is a
volunteer organization, museum, 501(c)(3), etc. Through donated time and
materials, the aircraft can be rebuilt at a much lower cost than it could
through a commercial operation... Although it would take a lot (!) longer.
With the funds in the account, you now have options: 1) You can use the
funds to rebuild the aircraft. 2) You can use the funds to purchase
another aircraft to replace it. 3) A combination of the two.
In the case of the SMW PBY damage, 1998 decision was #1: Restore the
bird to the most pristine PBY possible today. In 1999, that decision
was changed to #3: A new PBY was purchased with the insurance funds and
the plan is to operate it and use the revenue from airshows and other
appearances to fund the restoration of the damaged PBY.
Regardless of how you choose to use the insurance money, the terms of
the insurance vary from provider to provider and from insured to
insured. CFM may or may not have hull insurance, and if they do, they
may or may not have the provision that they retain ownership of the
damaged/destroyed aircraft. Since this kind of insurance isn't a
mass-market kind, literally every policy is different.
--
\\ Robert J. Granvin ~ cyberwarrior r...@sgi.com
\\ SGI ~ Eagan, MN "In dog years, I'm dead." http://www.sgi.com
Jeff J
Paul Mcgr wrote:
> Hi,
>
> with all due respect to what you saw from 200 yards out...I have a close friend
> of mine who helped with the wreckage recovery and he showed me photos of
> Yes..broken parts, but nothing that would be considered a "write-off".
> Also...the wreckage from what I have seen of the photo's is not at all badly
> burned.
> Thanks for letting me bend your ear...
>
> Warm Regards,
>
> Paul
Paul,I know -- I posted the below revisions more than a day earlier -- please read
all posts on a thread before commenting......
Best
Jeff
This is all *very* good to hear -- believe me, I was not trying to be a
party-pooper with my analysis -- I love u-birds -- I used to be very up to date
on the miracles the small warbird industries could perform -- sounds as though
they have only gotten better in the last 5 or 6 years (I have not kept with the
"scene" as much during this time). I guess in light of the facts you guys have
laid out, the accident and the aftermath superficially looked much worse than
they actually were.
And:
Matt and all,
Here are some detailed pics of the aftermath for all three birds. You're
friend was right, the wreckage does look remarkably free of burn damage and
more intact that I would have thought given the accident -- the U-bird is one
tough SOB......
<http://www.avweb.com/oshkosh/osh99/day3/corsair/>
Jeff
JFHar43
NTSB Identification: CHI99FA266A
Accident occurred JUL-29-99 at OSHKOSH, WI
Aircraft: Chance Vought F4U-4, registration: N712RD
Injuries: 1 Serious, 1 Minor, 1 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any
errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On July 29, 1999, at 1500 central daylight time (cdt), a Chance Vought F4U-4
Corsair, N712RD, operated by a commercial pilot, was destroyed when it collided
with a Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat, N14HP, which was positioned on the east edge of
runway 18 at Wittman Regional Airport, Oshkosh, Wisconsin, approximately 1,400
feet from the departure end. The F8F-1 was substantially damaged in the
collision. At the time of the collision, the F8F-1, N14HP, was stationary on
the runway with its engine at idle power. The F4U-4, N712RD, was at full power
on takeoff roll and struck the F8F-1 from behind. A Chance Vought F4U-5
Corsair, N179PT, on takeoff roll in formation with N712RD, sustained
substantial damage when the pilot saw a second Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat positioned
on the runway in front of his aircraft and elected to steer his airplane off of
the runway to avoid the other airplane. Visual meteorological conditions
prevailed at the time of the accident. The pilot of the F4U-4, N712RD, was
seriously injured. The pilot of the F8F-1, N14HP, reported no injuries. The
pilot of the F4U-5, N179PT, received minor injuries. The flights were being
conducted under 14 CFR Part 91 and were not on a flight plan. The three
airplanes were part of a formation demonstration flight of eight airplanes in
four sections of two airplanes each, that had been cleared to takeoff from
runway 18 together. The accident occurred at the annual Experimental Aircraft
Association (EAA) convention "AirVenture 99" in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Air traffic
control clearance for departing aircraft had been relinquished from the FAA
tower to a local "air boss" who was a member of the Warbirds of America. The
air boss confirmed that he had cleared all of the airplanes to takeoff as a
flight. Witnesses reported that the first section, composed of the two F8F-1,
Bearcats, taxied down runway 18, turned toward the southwest, and stopped, and
the lead airplane in the second section, composed of the F4U-4, N712RD, and the
F4U-5, N179PT, overran the first section, while the two airplanes were still on
the runway.
David Stinson
Dave Sutton wrote:
> Cowards do (blow preen strut, etc.)
Dave-
People on this list have asked us both
to take this matter to private email.
I haven't deleted you from my mail list--
so who's hiding from whom?
I'll ask you one more time.
Please-- be a grown-up and stop
the preening and strutting for your audience.
Take it private.
Dave Stinson
Austin, Texas
Ron Natalie
>
> The reason the F4U-4 will not be restored soon if ever is clear. The owner
> will be payed the current market value by the insurance company. This will be
> based on the price of those recently sold, approx.
> $850,000 to $900,000. At which time the aircraft will probably be sold to the
> highest offer by the new owners(the insurance company).
IF the plane was insured this might happen, but most likely,
the owner will negotiate a salvage value and take the difference
between that and the policy limit and keep the pieces.
JFHar43
to thier level and beat you with experience"
enough already...this thread should be used in reporting the condition of Lad
and the a/c involved. Whoever suggested Stinson do his "ditty" in front of
Linda Finch and the CFM hit the mark right on the head....enough said.
jim harley
Dave Sutton
> Whoever suggested Stinson do his "ditty" in front of
> Linda Finch and the CFM hit the mark right on the head....enough said.
That would have been myself. Thanks. Sadly, Stinson knows that
his life would be measured in seconds should he be so brave, and
the present lack of his loss at the hands of the Texas militia is irking
(but only about as irking as needing to scrape doggie-do from ones shoe).
Dave Sutton
> People on this list have asked us both
> to take this matter to private email.
>
> I haven't deleted you from my mail list--
> so who's hiding from whom?
>
> I'll ask you one more time.
> Please-- be a grown-up and stop
> the preening and strutting for your audience.
> Take it private.
Preening and strutting? Hardly. My only interest is in shaming you
so badly that you never again disgrace yourself with the comments
that you have inflicted on this august group. As for 'hiding', I have
no intention on wasting my time in private correspondance with a
troll, being way too busy for such trivialities. Lets see: Friday last
was a day of giving Falcon instruction and transit to airshow, Sat/Sun
did airshow, Mon/Tue gave two type ratings in the Falcon-50EX, Weds
100 hour engine inspection of Broussard, Thurs/Fri annual of Yak-52 as
well as volunteering to do a prepurchase inspection (for free) to a
100 hour private pilot who is looking at a Cessna 172. The week coming?
Tomorrow and Sunday giving flight training in a Fouga, then more Falcon flying....
Bottom line is that I am far too busy -doing it- and not -talking about it-
to write private letters to whackos. But count on it for life: Every time
you insult the endeavor that so many of us lay down our sweat, money, and
sometimes our lives for, I'll be there to call you a whacked out jealous pissant.
So perhaps you should be a bit more circumspect before you shout and yell
next time one of my -brother aviators- has a problem in an aircraft, lest you be
rudely asked to bugger-off again.
To close, with another favorite quote: "Arrogance is no
vice if you can consistantly back it up with the goods".
I do it every day, and will be damned if non-participant critics
like you who have never dared -anything- insult my friends when
they put it all on the line. To defend your friends when they are
not available to defend themselves is a virtue. To take
cheap shots at people (yes -People-, not just names in a
newsgroup) when they are down is an insult that no honorable
man should let pass. If Lad were here to defend himself, I would
be silent. But in his absence it is required for someone to stand up
and say out loudly and proudly that you are just plain wrong. Perhaps
you have not been around long enough to know that I -personally- spent
six months in a hospital bed after -I- had a warbird try to kill me, and took the
time to write (for free) a 6 part series on warbird safety for Warbirds Magazine
to share what i had learned from that accident. To think that -whackos-
like you might have made comments about me while my wife sat next to
my bed waiting for me to regain conciousness with a broken pelvis,
two broken arms, two broken shoulders, and two broken legs is more
than I can stand. I surely hope that when I was on my back that some
one of -my- brothers would have called you out the same way I am doing
as you insult a man who now lays with his spine broken, and to a fine
group that is sitting looking at a multi-100K fix of their pride and joy which
had it not been for their efforts would be gracing a pole outside of some
godforsaken Bolivian air force base gathering pigeon shit.
Think about it, whacko.
David Stinson
I've asked you nicely and repeatedly to
do as we both have been asked and take this private.
But you can't pass the chance to whip-up
the lynch mob you and your buddies have made of
a few members of this list.
Well, your hypocritical posts deserve an answer.
Since you lack the common decency to open your mailbox to me
and discuss this person-to-person as two adults would,
I guess the folks here will have to suffer a little more.
You've got a lot of "mouth courage," Mr. Sutton.
And lots of blow and brag when you've got an unthinking
lynch mob or audience of kiss-ups to back you-
but you haven't got the character to talk to me
one-on-one like two adults and work out this problem.
That's pretty sad, since lots of good people here have done so.
Perhaps one of them would volunteer to instruct you
in how to behave like a grown-up.
My email box is still open to you, and will always be open.
Please grow up, Dave.
Try being a man instead of a red-headed school yard bully boy,
huffing and blowing about how great you are
and bellowing about punching noses.
I know "the truth" is hard for you to handle-
you have so little experience with it-
but here's a dose of truth for you:
YOU are the one using your friend's near death as
an excuse for showing your buddies
what a big, tough guy you are.
I'm not the one making a big "he-man" display
and a macho carnival show
next to his hospital bed... you are.
If you had one ounce of real respect for him,
you'd have told me off good and then shut your mouth.
But no.... You repeatedly hold up his broken body
and shake it at me over something I never said,
so you can show everybody what a big, bad dude Dave Sutton is.
Well you sure showed them.
You don't give a damn about Mr. Doctor.
You care about your IMAGE and you're perfectly
willing to USE him as a stick on me if it will
impress your audience.
Those of us with a brain and some character
are impressed, too. Oh yes.
And you're a liar as well-- you know where
I live and what my name is... I never hid it.
So your charge of "hiding behind a keyboard" is just
another of your many childish, chest-beating lies.
I never said a word about Mr. Doctor, except
that I regretted his injury. You did the honors there.
That's two lies. You call me a "do nothing" when
you know better. Three lies. I could keep counting
but every person here with a brain gets the picture.
Integrity?? Forbearance?? YOU?? Don't make me laugh.
You might own a lot of birds, Dave,
but you're just a little bully boy child with some expensive toys.
Too bad you can't buy real integrity, huh?
Tell ya what, Dave-
I think you're a piece of sh**.
You think I'm a piece of sh**.
That sounds even to me--
I know your first instinct is to brag and strut
some more, or perhaps to set one of your stooges on me,
but what good is that going to do?
So wha da ya say,
as one piece of sh** to another-
Let's both stop this public carnival show.
Dave Stinson
Gary Brindle
do not take care in how you express yourself when an aviation accident
occurs.You chose to post in the first place in public so you should not
expect people to respond in private.
You may have concerns about the loss of old aircraft and crew, I am sure
all the readers of this group do. However the posting of a piece of song
lyric does not express your concern in a manner which befits a member of
the human race .
The actual argument about the flying of historic aircraft has been aired
here before, and will always have people for and against .The
owners/operators of the aircraft have the final say , it is best for
them to decide. I am very pleased to see old aircraft fly so have no
problems with current continuing increases in airworthy restorations.
Finally I strongly suggest that you read a copy of "How to win friends
and influence people" by Dale Carnegie.
--
Gary Brindle
David Stinson
Thank you for your adult tone in your letter.
As I said before- I have spoken privately with several members
of this group. My intent was a protest about the destruction
of historic artifacts with just enough "edge" to it
that people might stop and think about the losses
and consider alternatives.
After speaking with these folks, who were nearly all
courteous and adult,
I have before and do again freely admit that this way was probably
a bit "too much," and that I'd look for a better way to
lodge my solitary protest. Some people get a lot of personal
mileage out of "spinning" my remarks into something I
clearly did not say, and that is the problem. Witness the
other gentleman who took offense at my use of the word "toady."
An honest reading of what I wrote shows clearly that, unless he
is a member of a very small group centered around a few
mob leaders, he has no cause for offense. But it's much more
fun to pretend otherwise so he can have something about which
to complain.
I wonder how you, or any other reader of this,
would respond to being publicly vilified, lied about and made the
focus of a mindless lynch mob just to polish the image
of some little peacock?
I don't suppose you would bend over and take it without
at least some protest.
No matter... Mr. Sutton has some primative need to "win"
this argument, so I'll let him.
You win, Dave. You've certainly shown me
and put me in my place.
I'll just go sit in the corner now.
Regards,
Dave Stinson
Gooney Bird
to see all i want ....ive a hint. watching this slanging match from
afar ..we ALL care for pilot and plane and want the best ...so TO all
invovled in this stupid issue SHUT UP or LEAVE this group your wasting
your time abusing and hassling over a tragic issue.....move on...with
the real issue of WARBIRDS AND STUFF ....
phil
Damien Burke
wrote:
>Please grow up, Dave.
etc.
Now, which Dave was it that started this off with:
"And another two bite the dust...
and another one's gone....
and another one's gone...
and another two bite the dust..."
Hmmm?
And then, which Dave was it that instantly assumed both aircraft
destroyed and pilots killed:
"Sincere regrets for the destruction of irreplaceable history
and irreplaceable people."
Not Mr. Sutton, but...
"D. Stinson
(Indignant replies by the rude and ignorant cheerfully ignored.)"
Who can't even abide by the final line of his own idiotic and shameful
posting.
When it comes to figuring out who is being ignorant and childish - well,
I've had no problems figuring that one out at all, Stinson. You've
stated you won't repeat your 'bites the dust' response to each aircraft
crash you find out about here, now that you finally realise just how
much people you piss off each time. Then, knowing this, do you seriously
expect people who know Doctor to simply think "Oh good, he's a nice boy
now" and drop the issue, especially when each time you say "Have the
last word", you continue to post afterwards? You have made your point,
such as it is. You know repetition of it will involve you in a flame war
each time. So, why keep doing it at all, in any manner? Why keep posting
to this thread? Because you're a troll, or simply not very bright?
--
Damien Burke (add 'k' to end of address if replying)
British military aircraft site: http://www.totavia.com/jetman/
Dave Sutton
> When it comes to figuring out who is being ignorant and childish - well,
> I've had no problems figuring that one out at all, Stinson. You've
> stated you won't repeat your 'bites the dust' response to each aircraft
> crash you find out about here, now that you finally realise just how
> much people you piss off each time. Then, knowing this, do you seriously
> expect people who know Doctor to simply think "Oh good, he's a nice boy
> now" and drop the issue, especially when each time you say "Have the
> last word", you continue to post afterwards? You have made your point,
> such as it is. You know repetition of it will involve you in a flame war
> each time. So, why keep doing it at all, in any manner? Why keep posting
> to this thread? Because you're a troll, or simply not very bright?
One would answer the latter question by observing the measure of a man by
the company he keeps, which in the usenet sense for Mr. Stinson seems to
lean towards:
alt.alien.visitors
alt.fan.art-bell
alt.sci.time-travel
alt.astrology
alt.alien
alt.elvis.king
alt.teens.16-18
In addition to the occasional foray into aviation observations, none of which seem
too terribly well reasoned or thoughfull.
So, the answer, Damien, is at least choice B, although "Both" might also be appropriate.
Thus, in closing, I present for the approval of all a portrait of the interests of a perfect disfunctional whacko.
I'm particularly amused by the last newsgroup listed, a bit of childplay among the more usual paranoid rantings?
PVarga6423
To my knowledge Nelson does NOT currently have jigs built for the F8F.
Howard bought this airplane from George Enhorning who got it from Daryl
Greenamyer who got it from the Smithsonian as part of the deal when he sent his
racer to the NASM.
This airplane was a realtively low time test aircraft being an XF8F-1 at Pax
River. To my knowledge it never had been abused or in pieces and has always
been a flying a/c in relatively good storage environments since the end of WW
II.
Other than engine changes and repainting, I have no knowledge of any major
structural work being done to this airplane. I know Nelson well and have crewed
on this a/c for five years at Reno. It has never come up in discussion but I do
not believe that Nelson has done any major structural work on the F8F.
Regards,
Paul Varga
PVarga6423
As a good friend of Nelson's and an admirer of his work, which is of
superlative quality, I do not want anybody to expect an "instant rebuild".
As far as the Corsair is concerned, it will take quite a while. If it was as
"simple" as you say it is to rebuild a Corsair, they would have rebuilt
Howard's F4U-4 which was almost totally destroyed in an engine-failure induced
crash a number of years ago. The center section is a unique piece and if you
do not have one half way near being straight it is very difficult and time
consuming to restore.
As for the F8F, they would have to get or build the jigs and even I am not
certain as to the jigs that Steve Hinton and Square One have because the F8F-2
had a wing that had 20mm cannons in it and was different in some ways than the
"-1" wings. Whether this difference has any bearing on the jig design I do not
know, but it could be a factor. All this takes time.
Besides, I believe the parties involved are more interested in a thorough
rather than a fast restoration. I am sure Nelson will take whatever time it
takes and I can bet that it will take a lot longer than six months.
Regards,
Paul Varga
PVarga6423
knowledge of Stinson's opinion on these matters. While I, and I think most
people in this group, disagree with him, we give Stinson satisfaction by trying
to counter his thoughtless and upsetting method of presenting his "ideas".
This is just the latest in a string of rants that can be best characterized as
the "same old song".
As a long time acquaintance of Linda's, I can understand the need to stand up
and protect your friends. However, with guys like Stinson, you will never
change his opinion, which he is entitled to, and I doubt he will ever learn a
more eloquent method to present himself.
Consequently, in the future, I hope all of us , including Sutton, will agree to
just be indifferent to Stinson's postings and not waste a lot of time trying
to argue with him.
If we don't give him the satisfaction in the future, maybe he will go to some
other site to find someone who really gives a crap about what he thinks. That
way there will be more substance and I won't have to spend a half hour reading
one thread.
Paul Varga
Craig C.
Paul...things got a little convoluted throughout this thread. I
estimated that Nelson could repair the Bearcat by the end of the year
and the F4-U would take 2-3 years. I know his quality and attention to
details.....Just wish I had half his skills
Craig
Bela P. Havasreti
Hey fellas,
Who is repairing Elmer Ward's "Gulfhawk" Bearcat that munched at
Oshkosh a few years ago? Maybe they have some jigs?
Bela P. Havasreti CP-ASEL-I
SNJ-5 BuNo 91077 Basket case
NATA member #1742
EAA Warbirds of America (Cascade Warbirds Squadron #2)
Warbirds Worldwide
Puyallup, Washington USA
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2951
FEB2944
>Oshkosh a few years ago?
Could this be N3025, which is under restoration in Chino, according to a recent
FlyPast magazine Bearcat survivors survey? Don't know any more...
Matt Poole
Bela P. Havasreti
I guess we're not supposed to follow up on our own posts (?) but
what the heck....
Yes, that's the N number in the Warbirds Directory (Serial is BuNo
121707).
On a hunch, I just checked Square 1 aviation's (of Chino) website and
they list "Gulfhawk 4th" as one of their projects so it's in good
hands!
JFHar43
rebuilt at all? Howards Bearcat seems logical, but what about the Corsair? I
know this thread has concentrated on what it would take to get them
rebuilt...but no word from the Cavanaugh or Pardue camps as to if they will be
rebuilt . Jim Harley
Tim Savage
Pardue will also have the Bearcat rebuilt and was talking to some shops
about the project at OSH.
JFHar43 wrote in message <19990813153711...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
JFHar43
Thoughts are still with Lad though.
Jim
Tim Savage
sign...
JFHar43 wrote in message <19990813225348...@ng-ff1.aol.com>...
PVarga6423
we speak drilling apart the Bearcat to be loaded on a truck back to
Breckenridge. Word is that a maximum effort will be made to get it airworthy as
soon as is possible. (Christmas? NO!).
Although there are other earlier postings to the contrary, the Ezell's looked
at the rear fuselage of the Corsair and it was told to me that as a unit it
will probably NOT be restored and will be used for parts. The center section
apparently fared the best and could be the basis of a rebuild. Apparently the
twisting and flipping did more damage than initially thought.
Paul Varga