pre-taxi clearance?
kontiki
If I'm not departing IFR would I need to contact that first (before ground) to
get some sort of clearance? I haven't done a departure from too many Class C
airports and am only familiar wit contacting ground or clearance delivery for
IFR.
Reason I'm asking is because I'm planning on flying there this weekend and just
wanted to be prepared. Thanks for any info.
BTIZ
is JAX class B? then yes.. you'll need a "clearance" before you call for
taxi..
could be they are busy enough that they want you to call for clearance even
for a vfr dept before you call for taxi..
but hey.. I'm on the left coast.. wonder what the other coast would say..
TZ
"kontiki" <whir...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E25FDAC...@mindspring.com...
Peter Duniho
news:z5qV9.42429$ym4.4...@news2.west.cox.net...
> when in doubt.. ask.. at the FBO after you land..
>
> is JAX class B? then yes.. you'll need a "clearance" before you call for
> taxi..
Yup, and there are even Class C and Class D airports where a VFR departure
clearance is required or recommended.
Pete
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/15/03 10:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <v2cdjpb...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>Yup, and there are even Class C and Class D airports where a VFR departure
>clearance is required or recommended.
>
But none of them is in the US.
VRB300
KAVP (PA) for one requires a VFR taxi clearance.
Vince
Stephen C. Robbins
"VRB300" <vrb...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030116094341...@mb-cd.aol.com...
> >But none of them is in the US.<
>
> KAVP (PA) for one requires a VFR taxi clearance.
>
> Vince
KROC (NY) requires a VFR taxi clearance
Steve
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 8:43 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030116094341...@mb-cd.aol.com>
>
>KAVP (PA) for one requires a VFR taxi clearance.
>
In the US, a taxi clearance is required at all controlled airports for all
aircraft. But there are no "Class C and Class D airports where a VFR departure
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 9:07 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3e26ca96$1...@news.netacc.net>
>
>KROC (NY) requires a VFR taxi clearance
>
In the US, a taxi clearance is required at all controlled airports for all
John Clonts
Stephen C. Robbins <srobbinsN...@netacc.net> wrote in message
news:3e26ca96$1...@news.netacc.net...
SPM will now wield his semantic scalpel.... :)
C J Campbell
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030116072004...@mb-mw.aol.com...
Oakland International requires a VFR departure clearance before calling for
taxi, or at least they strongly encouraged it while I was based there.
Most Class C airports will give a VFR departure clearance before calling for
taxi if you request one.
ADB Iceman
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030116072004...@mb-mw.aol.com...
Steve I think you might be focusing on the precise definition of the word
clearance, and you are right you will never hear in the US the words "N231XX
cleared to .". if you are VFR. Given your previous post I have a pretty good
idea that you know this ....
For the rest of the crowd..
JAX is one of those places that requires VFR departing traffic to contact
clearance delivery to get a squawk code and T/O instructions before calling
ground. Ground will ask if you have contacted pre-taxi clearance delivery
and will then sk if you have the ATIS because the ATIS says VFR departures
contact clearance delvery before contacting ground .. . It makes life a lot
easier if you do that before starting up. Why? Because sometimes there are a
rush of IFR departures and you might sit on the ground with the propeller
turning. Either before taxi or at the end of the run up area.
KOAK is another example. RDU is another that runs an ATIS during the day
"VFR departures Contact clearance delivery on 120.1 for squawk code before
contacting ground ..
ADB ICEMAN
Newps
C J Campbell wrote:
>
> Most Class C airports will give a VFR departure clearance before calling for
> taxi if you request one.
Interesting. I work at a class C. What would you like me to tell you?
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 10:38 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <v2do0qh...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>Oakland International requires a VFR departure clearance before calling for
>taxi, or at least they strongly encouraged it while I was based there.
>
>Most Class C airports will give a VFR departure clearance before calling for
>taxi if you request one.
>
There are no "VFR departure clearances" for any Class C airspace in the US.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 10:42 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <NhBV9.113725$hK4.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>Steve I think you might be focusing on the precise definition of the word
>clearance,
>
Of course I am.
>
>and you are right you will never hear in the US the words "N231XX
>cleared to .". if you are VFR.
>
Exactly.
ADB Iceman
Why don't you just clarify your statement rather than continue to post this
obscurity? You are just playing on the definition of Clearance which I would
understand if the newsgroup was re.aviation.ifr but not all the pilots in
this newsgroup are familiar with that detail.
The crux of the post is that their are some Class 'C' airports that want you
to get a squawk code and T/O instructions. So you are RIGHT they will not
hear the word NXXXXX cleared to .." But they will hear NXXX fly runway
heading squawk 1234 contact ground for taxi." To some that detail means a
"clearnace..
Now your post would be so much clearer to the uninitiated if you clarified
things by posting hey that squawk code and T/O instructions are not a
clearance ...
ADB ICEMAN
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030116122314...@mb-mw.aol.com...
ADB Iceman
contacting ground.." I expect to hear after my "XYZ Clearance Delivery
NXXXXX VFR GEU with information Alpha.." A nice "NXXXXX remain VFR , fly
runway heading climb to 2000, squawk 1234 contact ground when ready to taxi"
Notice no "cleared to"
JAX, OAK, RDU are just three that have this procedure of getting the T/O
instructions and squawk code before taxi. Sometimes at OAK and (less so) at
JAX I would hear the "Expect a 10 minute delay for IFR departures contact
ground when ready to taxi."
You usually explain these things -- I always enjoy reading your posts on ATC
procedures.
ADB ICEMAN
"Newps" <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3E26E310...@nowhere.com...
ADB Iceman
understand that very important nuances of the word clearance.
Just a suggestion .. you might think about clarifying the situation rather
than demonstrate your understanding in a kind of arrogant tone.. Just a
thought. The idea of this newsgroup as I understand it is to promote
aviation, get a great opportunity to tap great experiences, and share
information. I sense a bit of arrogance in your post that I am not sure
promotes aviation.
Just a thought
ADB ICEMAN
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030116122558...@mb-mw.aol.com...
Peter Duniho
> In the US, a taxi clearance is required at all controlled airports for all
> aircraft. But there are no "Class C and Class D airports where a VFR
departure
> clearance is required or recommended."
Last time I flew into Birmingham, AL (Class C), a VFR clearance was required
before taxi.
At Eugene, OR, a VFR clearance is recommended before taxi.
I would not be surprised if there are others.
Peter Duniho
news:rSCV9.44756$p_6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Now your post would be so much clearer to the uninitiated if you clarified
> things by posting hey that squawk code and T/O instructions are not a
> clearance ...
You haven't noticed? Steven prefers to obfuscate, especially if it means he
can contradict someone. It doesn't really matter much to him whether
there's a reasonable interpretation of someone's statement that allows it to
be correct.
Newps
ADB Iceman wrote:
> If your ATIS says "VFR departures contact clearance delivery before
> contacting ground.." I expect to hear after my "XYZ Clearance Delivery
> NXXXXX VFR GEU with information Alpha.." A nice "NXXXXX remain VFR ,
Really? Do some towers tell you to "remain VFR" after you actually tell
them that you are departing VFR?
fly
> runway heading climb to 2000, squawk 1234 contact ground when ready to taxi"
CD will tell a VFR to fly runway heading? Just what does the tower
controller do anyways when you call him?
>
> JAX, OAK, RDU are just three that have this procedure of getting the T/O
> instructions and squawk code before taxi.
We will use our CD freq for a three week period between Thanksgiving and
Christmas. But only for an hour in the morning to take care of the
cargo rush. And only for the cargo planes. And only when they go IFR.
Sometimes at OAK and (less so) at
> JAX I would hear the "Expect a 10 minute delay for IFR departures contact
> ground when ready to taxi."
Sounds like airspace problems. No such thing as IFR delays here, unless
you are going to an airport where EDCT's are in effect. Like the daily
ones into SFO and LGA.
>
> You usually explain these things -- I always enjoy reading your posts on ATC
> procedures.
You're welcome.
ADB Iceman
interpret this as a reminder that this is not a "clearance". I am not a
controller like yourself so I am citing from experience, but my experience
the few times I have flown VFR from a busy class 'C' airport has been that
either I get just a squawk code, or I have gotten a standard "fly rwy
heading climb and maintain 2000 contact deperature on 1XX.X" speech.
Typically the tower repeats the T/O instructions, but I have also got an
other vector from the tower.
I have experinced at the busiest airports in class 'C' airspace there are
certain times of the day where GA are put on the backburner for at most 10
minutes, while a whole host of departing airline traffic go out at once.
(Now I am not talking about busy Class B places like PHX where the periods
can be much longer.) I have had that experince twice at OAK when I could
break into the CD freq. It looks like a parade. Then complete quiet.
ADB ICEMAN
"Newps" <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3E271117...@nowhere.com...
ADB Iceman
going to argue you are not getting a VFR "Clearance". That is a special word
to the IFR folks So the argument.
Your are getting instructions that you must follow but you are not getting a
clearance.
A Clearance has a special phraseology "NXXXX is cleared to (NAV point), via,
altitude, freq." It guarantees spacing as an example.
ADB ICEMAN.
"Peter Duniho" <NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote in message
news:v2e3p4c...@corp.supernews.com...
Peter Duniho
> Just to let you know controllers like newps, and posters like Steven are
> going to argue you are not getting a VFR "Clearance". That is a special
word
> to the IFR folks So the argument.
IMHO, in the context, the meaning was clear. The point being that even the
VFR pilot needs to, or at least should, contact clearance delivery (or the
equivalent) before getting a taxi clearance.
Steven is nitpicking just because it makes him feel good to do so. He
doesn't really care about the practical side of the discussion...he'd much
rather confuse things, if it means he gets to tell someone they are wrong
and he is right.
Pete
p.s. Not all clearances have the special phraseology you describe. A
clearance to operate VFR in Class B comes to mind as one example.
Michael
>
> In the US, a taxi clearance is required at all controlled airports for all
> aircraft. But there are no "Class C and Class D airports where a VFR departure
> clearance is required or recommended."
That's correct but confusing for the average pilot.
By definition, no VFR departure clearance can exist at Class C or
Class D airports because VFR aircraft receive no separation services
in Calss C and D airspace (in the US - ICAO differs). A VFR departure
clearance is always required from a Class B airport because VFR
aircraft do receive separation services in Class B airspace.
Nevertheless, the procedures at some Class C and D fields in the US
require or encourage VFR departures to contact clearance delivery and
receive departure instructions. These are given in the same format as
a clearance, and just as for a clearance, compliance is mandatory if
you actually want to depart. There is thus a natural tendency to
think of this as a clearance.
It is also not uncommon for ATC personnel at these fields to
(improperly) use the word 'clearance' or 'cleared' in this situation,
when the correct terms are 'instruction' or 'instructed.' This
perpetuates the confusion.
Michael
Newps
Michael wrote:
>
> It is also not uncommon for ATC personnel at these fields to
> (improperly) use the word 'clearance' or 'cleared' in this situation,
> when the correct terms are 'instruction' or 'instructed.'
Give me an example of where the words instruction or instructed should
be used.
ADB Iceman
"Newps" <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3E27260C...@nowhere.com...
After I screw up, you ask me to call the tower, and you tell me; "I
instructed you to fly a heading of 230 and maintain 2000 .." <BIG SMILE>
ADB ICEMAN
Kevin Thorley
> In the US, a taxi clearance is required at all controlled airports for all
> aircraft. But there are no "Class C and Class D airports where a VFR departure
> clearance is required or recommended."
When I flew to Allentown PA (ABE) in November I had to call Clearance
Delivery before departing VFR. Actually, not being intimately
familiar with ops at Class C fields, I called to get Flight Following
and was told I needed a clearance first. I was given a departure
frequency, an initial heading to fly after take-off and an altitude to
remain below. Is this not a VFR clearance, or am I confused on the
terminology here?
Kevin Thorley
PP-ASEL
KBED
C J Campbell
| In Response to:
| "Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
| news:20030116072004...@mb-mw.aol.com...
| > >From: "Peter Duniho" NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com
| > >Date: 1/15/03 10:33 PM Central Standard Time
| > >Message-id: <v2cdjpb...@corp.supernews.com>
| > >
| > >Yup, and there are even Class C and Class D airports where a VFR
| departure
| > >clearance is required or recommended.
| > >
| >
| > But none of them is in the US.
|
| Steve I think you might be focusing on the precise definition of the word
| clearance, and you are right you will never hear in the US the words
"N231XX
| cleared to .". if you are VFR. Given your previous post I have a pretty
good
| idea that you know this ....
|
Actually, what about towers like TIW that frequently say "N231XX cleared for
west bound departure" or BFI which will say "N231XX cleared for Vashon
departure?" Note that the Vashon departure is one of three VFR departure
procedures used at BFI.
Newps
Yes it is, don't worry about it.
Ron Natalie
"Kevin Thorley" <elro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:36cf8280.03011...@posting.google.com...
> Is this not a VFR clearance, or am I confused on the
> terminology here?
It is not a clearance. As Steve points out a clearance is a special thing. A contract
between you and ATC. The only VFR "clearances" are (other than cleared to land
and takeoff) are special VFR and class B airspace. All that squawk this and fly that
stuff is instructions, but not a clearance.
ADB Iceman
"C J Campbell" <christoph...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v2ecs0r...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "ADB Iceman" <d.r.tr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:NhBV9.113725$hK4.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> | In Response to:
> | "Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> | news:20030116072004...@mb-mw.aol.com...
> | > >From: "Peter Duniho" NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com
> | > >Date: 1/15/03 10:33 PM Central Standard Time
> | > >Message-id: <v2cdjpb...@corp.supernews.com>
> | > >
>
> Actually, what about towers like TIW that frequently say "N231XX cleared
for
> west bound departure" or BFI which will say "N231XX cleared for Vashon
> departure?" Note that the Vashon departure is one of three VFR departure
> procedures used at BFI.
Both TIW and BFI sit under Class B airspace. In that case transition through
the Class B airspace does require a clearance. In fact in this case it is
absoutely critical to hear the magic words "Cleared into/through Class Bravo
airspace.."
Class C and class D airspace only require two-way communication not a
clearance in the definition of the word.
ADB ICEMAN
kontiki
that this pre-taxi clearance frequency would be somewhat similar to
clearance delivery. Nice to hear real life examples of what sort of
communication would typically transpire on the pre-taxi clearance frequency.
This is a great forum, I appreciate all the info fellas.
Peter Duniho
> Both TIW and BFI sit under Class B airspace. In that case transition
through
> the Class B airspace does require a clearance.
They are under, but not within. No clearance into the Class B is needed to
operate at either of those airports, and most of the time, operations are
made without one.
What CJ is talking about is the tower controller's habit of making it sound
like they are giving you permission to fly a particular direction, when in
fact all they are able to do is give you permission to use the runway.
This is related to a thread we had a few months ago regarding takeoff
clearances that include departure direction.
It doesn't bother me that tower controllers do this, but I do admit that it
could be confusing to a new pilot who may be under the impression that the
tower controller has a lot more control over that pilot's flight than they
really do.
Pete
Les Gawlik
to ground.
Les
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030116072004...@mb-mw.aol.com...
> >From: "Peter Duniho" NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com
> >Date: 1/15/03 10:33 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: <v2cdjpb...@corp.supernews.com>
> >
> >Yup, and there are even Class C and Class D airports where a VFR
departure
> >clearance is required or recommended.
> >
>
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 6:45 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <zY-cnaMYbL7...@comcast.com>
>
>I think KROC Rochester is one.
>
It isn't.
Happy Dog
Is.
moo
Kevin Thorley
thing. A contract
> between you and ATC. The only VFR "clearances" are (other than cleared to land
> and takeoff) are special VFR and class B airspace. All that squawk this and fly that
> stuff is instructions, but not a clearance.
So does that mean I am not required to comply with it if I don't like
it?? This doesn't make much sense. I am well aware that the word
"clearance" has a very specific meaning in terms of IFR. However, is
it not possible to have two meaning for the word? What about being
"cleared to land" when VFR? It is also rather confusing that VFR
pilots have to contact "Clearance Delivery", recieve instructions that
they must comply with, only to find out later that this isn't even a
real clearance! ;)
Kevin Thorley
PP-ASEL
KBED
Michael
> > be used.
>
> After I screw up, you ask me to call the tower, and you tell me; "I
> instructed you to fly a heading of 230 and maintain 2000 .." <BIG SMILE>
And after that you get violated for failing to comply with an ATC
instruction.
This is very different from what happens if you are IFR or in Class B
airspace - then you get violated for failing to comply with an ATC
clearance.
Michael
Ron Natalie
> >It is not a clearance. As Steve points out a clearance is a special
> thing. A contract
> > between you and ATC. The only VFR "clearances" are (other than cleared to land
> > and takeoff) are special VFR and class B airspace. All that squawk this and fly that
> > stuff is instructions, but not a clearance.
>
> So does that mean I am not required to comply with it if I don't like
> it??
No it doesn't mean that.
> I am well aware that the word
> "clearance" has a very specific meaning in terms of IFR.
And VFR.
> However, is it not possible to have two meaning for the word?
It's possible, but it doesn't mean that a class C departure instructions
are a clearance.
> What about being
> "cleared to land" when VFR?
What about it?
> It is also rather confusing that VFR
> pilots have to contact "Clearance Delivery", recieve instructions that
> they must comply with, only to find out later that this isn't even a
> real clearance! ;)
Not a surprise, it's not a clearance. You don't need (and can't get)
a clearance for VFR operations except for class B or special VFR.
Don't lose sleep over it. The major distinction is that in places where
you NEED a clearance (like going into class B), you need to hear the
word CLEARED.
John Galban
<snip>
> CD will tell a VFR to fly runway heading? Just what does the tower
> controller do anyways when you call him?
>
That's been my experience when receiving departure instructions at
Class C (as well as class B). You get an initial flight instruction
(usually, but not always - fly rwy heading), a departure freq., and a
squawk code. The only difference I've noticed between class B & C is
that B always says "cleared into the class B airspace" at the
beginning.
As far as the tower is concerned, they usually give a takeoff
clearance and possibly the first turn away from the runway heading,
then a handoff to departure.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
Hamish Reid
jga...@hotmail.com (John Galban) wrote:
> Newps <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:<3E271117...@nowhere.com>...
> <snip>
>
> > CD will tell a VFR to fly runway heading? Just what does the tower
> > controller do anyways when you call him?
> >
>
> That's been my experience when receiving departure instructions at
> Class C (as well as class B). You get an initial flight instruction
> (usually, but not always - fly rwy heading), a departure freq., and a
> squawk code. The only difference I've noticed between class B & C is
> that B always says "cleared into the class B airspace" at the
> beginning.
That's my experience too. Departing both Montery (KMRY) and Santa
Barbara (KSBA) I'm been given an initial heading (usually rwy heading)
and sometimes a secondary heading from clearance. Typically something
like "fly runway heading until over the freeway [or 1,000' or whatever],
then heading 060. Squawk 0336, departure frequency 120.9" (or whatever).
Tower doesn't usually give any instructions.
The details seem to vary a fair bit from airport to airport -- I'm based
at Oakland (KOAK), where the standard VFR departure instructions from
Clearance (actually Ground for North Field) mostly just give a squawk
code and an altitude restriction. Tower then gives more detailed
instructions involving the Nimitz, Lake Chabot, etc....
Hamish
John T
--
John T
http://www.novadevgroup.com/TknoFlyer
__________
"ADB Iceman" <d.r.tr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:y5DV9.44791$p_6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Dan Luke
> Give me an example of where the words instruction or instructed should
> be used.
"Should?" I don't know, but...
KMOB Tower: "Cessna '78Lima, your departure instructions were to turn left
and fly heading 180. Why are you turning right?"
Student pilot me: "Uh, I guess I forgot, sir!"
KMOB Tower: "Cessna '78Lima, when we give you an instruction, we expect you
to follow it and <rant, rant, rave, rave, etc.>
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM
Newps
That's not what he meant. The point is there is no instance where those
words are used. Those things you mentioned were instructions, however
those words are not said.
John Girard
departure instructions as if its an IFR clearance. Write the letters C R A
F T down the left side of your scratch paper. This is the order that IFR
clearances are given in, and usually VFR departure instructions from class
B, C, and D as well (if such instructions are being given).
C - Clearance. "Cleared to" -- doesn't apply to VFR departure instructions.
R - Route. Here's where they'll say "fly heading 220 until reaching the
golf course"
A - Altitude. If there are any altitude restrictions..
F - Frequency. Departure frequency.
T - Transponder code.
Example -- leaving north las vegas airport the other day, I had:
Me: "733XL at transient with Alpha, taxi for SW departure, and can your
coordinate flight following to Montgomery Field?"
Ground: "733XL, taxi to runway 7, stand by for departure instructions."
Me: "Taxi to 7, 733XL."
<PAUSE>
Ground: "733XL, advise when you're ready to copy departure instructions."
Me: "733XL ready to copy."
Ground: "733XL, fly heading 220 at or below 3500. Departure frequency
xxx.xx, squawk 1234. Advise tower when ready to depart."
Me: "Fly heading 220, at or below 3500, departure xxx.xx, squawking 1234,
733XL."
Ground: "733XL readback correct, have a nice flight."
Makes the departure a snap -- you have everything you need to know.
"Hamish Reid" <hami...@panxyzdemoniazyx.com> wrote in message
news:hamishxyz-9A3F0...@news.supernews.com...
ADB Iceman
controller..)
ADB ICEMAN
N231JM Mooney M20K
"Newps" <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3E28DE4D...@nowhere.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 12:29 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <rSCV9.44756$p_6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>Why don't you just clarify your statement rather than continue to post this
>obscurity?
>
Obscurity? I posted a simple factual statement. Curious, since you seem to
agree that a clearance is not required or even available for VFR operations
within Class C or D airspace, that you ask me for clarification, and you don't
question Peter Duniho's assertion that there are Class C and Class D airports
where a VFR departure clearance is required.
>
>You are just playing on the definition of Clearance which I would
>understand if the newsgroup was re.aviation.ifr but not all the pilots in
>this newsgroup are familiar with that detail.
>
You don't believe VFR pilots should be familiar with clearances? A clearance
is not limited to IFR operations. The FARs and AIM make it quite clear under
what circumstances a clearance is required for VFR operations. Knowledge of
the applicable FARs that relate to private pilot operations and use of the
applicable portions of the AIM and FAA advisory circulars is specifically
required by FAR 61.105 for private pilot applicants.
>
>The crux of the post is that their are some Class 'C' airports that want you
>to get a squawk code and T/O instructions.
>
All Class C airports will issue a beacon code and takeoff instructions. The
crux of Peter Duniho's post is that there are Class C and Class D airports
where a VFR departure clearance is required. Mr. Duniho is demonstrably
incorrect.
>
>So you are RIGHT they will not
>hear the word NXXXXX cleared to .." But they will hear NXXX fly runway
>heading squawk 1234 contact ground for taxi."
>
At what facility does clearance delivery issue headings?
>
>To some that detail means a "clearnace..
>
>Now your post would be so much clearer to the uninitiated if you clarified
>things by posting hey that squawk code and T/O instructions are not a
>clearance ...
>
Earlier in your message it was VFR pilots that needed clarification on this,
now it's just the uninitiated. Now THAT'S progress!
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 2:00 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <v2e3svd...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>You haven't noticed? Steven prefers to obfuscate, especially if it means he
>can contradict someone. It doesn't really matter much to him whether
>there's a reasonable interpretation of someone's statement that allows it to
>be correct.
>
Obfuscate? How so? I fully understand that there's a reasonable
interpretation of your statement that allows it to be correct. There are
countries that require a clearance for operations in Class C and D airspace, I
simply pointed out that the US is not one of them.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 12:38 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <J_CV9.44776$p_6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>If your ATIS says "VFR departures contact clearance delivery before
>contacting ground.." I expect to hear after my "XYZ Clearance Delivery
>NXXXXX VFR GEU with information Alpha.." A nice "NXXXXX remain VFR,
>
Why would you expect them to tell you to remain VFR? Didn't you just tell them
you were going VFR?
>
>fly runway heading
>
Why would clearance delivery issue headings?
>
>climb to 2000,
>
Altitudes issued to VFR departure aircraft, where they CAN be issued, tend to
be a maximum or minimum, not an absolute. "At or below 2000", or "at or above
200", not "climb and maintain 2000". "Climb to 2000" is bad in any case,
someone might infer it means FL 220.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 12:45 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <y5DV9.44791$p_6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>I think last count only 20% of the US pilots have an IFR ticket and might
>understand that very important nuances of the word clearance.
>
According to AOPA, 57% of active certificated pilots in the US holding a
private certificate or better are instrument rated. Why do you believe an IFR
pilot has a better understanding of "clearance" than a VFR pilot?
>
>Just a suggestion .. you might think about clarifying the situation rather
>than demonstrate your understanding in a kind of arrogant tone.. Just a
>thought. The idea of this newsgroup as I understand it is to promote
>aviation, get a great opportunity to tap great experiences, and share
>information. I sense a bit of arrogance in your post that I am not sure
>promotes aviation.
>
>Just a thought
>
I thought that's what I was doing. Peter Duniho stated there are Class C and
Class D airports where a VFR departure clearance is required. He's right. I
was clarifying the situation when I pointed out that none of those airports is
in the US.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 1:58 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <v2e3p4c...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>Last time I flew into Birmingham, AL (Class C), a VFR clearance was required
>before taxi.
>
Nope. A VFR clearance has never been required before taxi, or at any other
time, at Birmingham, or at any other Class C field in the US. Clearances for
VFR operations in US Class C airspace do not exist.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 2:54 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <v2e7319...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>Steven is nitpicking just because it makes him feel good to do so. He
>doesn't really care about the practical side of the discussion...he'd much
>rather confuse things, if it means he gets to tell someone they are wrong
>and he is right.
>
Nitpicking? Peter, your statement was not wrong, it just needed some
clarification. You're quite correct that there are Class C and Class D
airspace areas where a clearance is required for VFR operations. I just added
that none of those areas is located in the US.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 2:47 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <auto-000...@atheros.com>
>
>In article <20030116105206...@mb-mw.aol.com>,
>
>Only to taxi in the movement area, big shot.
>
Of course. That goes without saying.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 3:07 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <449a3d6e.03011...@posting.google.com>
>
>That's correct but confusing for the average pilot.
>
Why? Do you believe that average pilots lack the knowledge they're required by
regulation to have?
>
>By definition, no VFR departure clearance can exist at Class C or
>Class D airports because VFR aircraft receive no separation services
>in Calss C and D airspace (in the US - ICAO differs).
>
That's not correct. VFR aircraft receive no separation in US Class D airspace
(nor do they in ICAO Class D airspace), but VFR aircraft are separated from IFR
aircraft in US Class D airspace. The US differs from ICAO only in not issuing
a clearance for VFR operations in Class C airspace.
ICAO International Standards and Recommended Practices call for the issuance of
a clearance for VFR operations in Class C airspace. From ICAO Annex 11,
Twelfth edition:
CHAPTER 3. AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SERVICE
3.3 Operation of air traffic control service
3.3.3 Clearances issued by air traffic control units shall provide separation:
a) between all flights in Class A and B airspaces;
b) between IFR flights in Class C, D and E airspaces;
c) between IFR flights and VFR flights in Class C airspace;
d) between IFR flights and special VFR flights;
e) between special VFR flights when so prescribed by the appropriate ATS
authority,
except that, when requested by an aircraft and if so prescribed by the
appropriate ATS authority for the cases listed under b) above in airspace
Classes D and E, a flight may be cleared without separation being so provided
in respect of a specific portion of the flight conducted in visual
meteorological conditions.
The US has filed a difference with ICAO stating that clearances will not be
issued for VFR operations in Class C airspace. In my opinion, the US should
conform to the ICAO standard. In all other instances, a clearance is required
whenever separation is provided. A "clearance" is "an authorization by air
traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft,
for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled
airspace." The "instructions" issued to VFR aircraft for separation purposes
in US Class C airspace have all the properties of a "clearance". The only
reason those instructions do not constitute a clearance is because the US says
so.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 4:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <36cf8280.03011...@posting.google.com>
>
>When I flew to Allentown PA (ABE) in November I had to call Clearance
>Delivery before departing VFR.
>
Which is not at all uncommon, but calling Clearance Delivery prior to departing
VFR does not mean you've received a clearance.
>
>Actually, not being intimately
>familiar with ops at Class C fields, I called to get Flight Following
>and was told I needed a clearance first.
>
No, that's not correct. Either the controller misspoke or your memory is a bit
off the mark.
>
>I was given a departure
>frequency, an initial heading to fly after take-off and an altitude to
>remain below. Is this not a VFR clearance, or am I confused on the
>terminology here?
>
It's not a clearance because the US government says it's not. That's the gist
of it, I just posted a more detailed explanation in another message.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/17/03 8:11 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <36cf8280.03011...@posting.google.com>
>
>So does that mean I am not required to comply with it if I don't like
>it??
>
No, you're required to comply with it unless it would require you to violate an
FAR or you have an inflight emergency. Just not liking it isn't enough.
>
>This doesn't make much sense. I am well aware that the word
>"clearance" has a very specific meaning in terms of IFR.
>
It has the same specific meaning in terms of VFR.
Greg Esres
airspace.>>
Every FAA pub that I can find states that NO separation services are
provided to VFR aircraft in Class D airspace.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/16/03 4:34 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <v2ecs0r...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>Actually, what about towers like TIW that frequently say "N231XX cleared for
>west bound departure" or BFI which will say "N231XX cleared for Vashon
>departure?" Note that the Vashon departure is one of three VFR departure
>procedures used at BFI.
>
That's incorrect phraseology. The example provided in a local website is
"Runway 13 Right, cleared for takeoff, Vashon Departure approved."
http://www.seattleflight.com/supplementalcommunicationbfi.asp
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/17/03 1:17 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <a6OV9.7510$357.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>
>
>Is.
>
Please expand on that. I look forward to seeing your explanation of how
something which doesn't exist can be required or recommended.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/19/03 10:27 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030119112717...@mb-cl.aol.com>
>
>That's not correct. VFR aircraft receive no separation in US Class D
>airspace
>(nor do they in ICAO Class D airspace), but VFR aircraft are separated from
>IFR
>aircraft in US Class D airspace. The US differs from ICAO only in not
>issuing
>a clearance for VFR operations in Class C airspace.
>
Oops. The second sentence above should have been; "VFR aircraft receive no
separation in US Class D airspace (nor do they in ICAO Class D airspace), but
VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft in US Class C airspace."
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/19/03 10:50 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8qll2v8t05ap3nuc8...@4ax.com>
Yes, I made a boo-boo. The sentence should have been; "VFR aircraft receive no
separation in US Class D airspace (nor do they in ICAO Class D airspace), but
VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft in US Class C airspace."
Dan Luke
> >Only to taxi in the movement area, big shot.
> >
>
> Of course. That goes without saying.
Unless someone else goes without saying it.
Doug
the tower.
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message > >From:
Hamish Reid
spmcn...@aol.comnospam (Steven P. McNicoll) wrote:
> [...]
>
> At what facility does clearance delivery issue headings?
Santa Barabara and Monterey, for two. And even Oakland does
occasionally, though it's unusual. And I've had at least one from
Sacramento. All VFR, of course.
But I agree with you on the main point -- I can't believe that the
average US-licensed VFR pilot shouldn't be able to understand the
difference between "clearance" and "instruction" in this context...
Hamish
L Smith
it is sufficient in and of itself. However, speaking as a low-time student pilot, I must report
to you that your original statement to this effect was directly responsible for my confusion
on the subject. If it weren't for other, more helpful posters, I would still be trying to reconcile
your comments with my experience.
For the record, my training is taking place at RDU, a class C airport. Prior to every
flight I've made from this airport, I've been required by my instructor to contact clearance
delivery. I have not tried to contact ground directly so I don't know what would happen
if I did, but if the local procedures say "contact clearance delivery" then that's what I'm
going to do.
Furthermore, my understanding is that when I'm returning to RDU's airspace after
practicing at one of the surrounding uncontrolled fields, I need to establish communications
with RDU's controllers before entering that airspace. I recognize that I don't need to hear
the 'magic words' ("cleared to enter ..."), but I'm not sure I want to find out what happens
if I just barge on in without having "established those two-way communications.
Your summary of the situation reminds me of the joke about Microsoft's customer service.
Your response, while completely accurate and factual, was also completely devoid of any
useful information. Using your approach, if someone were to ask "why should I stop for
a stopsign?", the appropriate answer would be "because it's the law." While that may be
true, it leaves more unsaid than said.
Rich Lemert
Hamish Reid
L Smith <lls...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Well, yes, but in most cases when you contact Clearance as a departing
VFR flight, they're not issuing you a *clearance*, just instructions.
It's important to distinguish between the two, as I'll try to explain
below (and, 'round here with several well-known DE's, you'll fail your
orals if you can't explain the difference -- it's kinda crucial to the
airspace here). (And typically if you call Ground first and they don't
know you've already called Clearance, they'll tell you to call Clearance
first. No big deal -- I've done it myself).
> Furthermore, my understanding is that when I'm returning to RDU's
> airspace after
> practicing at one of the surrounding uncontrolled fields, I need to
> establish communications
> with RDU's controllers before entering that airspace. I recognize that I
> don't need to hear
> the 'magic words' ("cleared to enter ..."), but I'm not sure I want to
> find out what happens
> if I just barge on in without having "established those two-way
> communications.
But just "establishing those two-way communications" is not getting a
*clearance* in any formal sense.
I think Stephen's point -- which is valid, if sometimes a little
obtusely put -- is that in the US, a clearance is a well-defined thing
with a well-defined syntax and semantics, for well-defined purposes.
Departing or arriving VFR at a typical Class C airport is not one of
those purposes, so what you get when you call Clearance or Approach in
the context discussed here is not what's defined as a clearance in the
US -- just a set of instructions. The difference is crucial if you just
try to barge through the airspace surrounding my home airport having
first contaced Approach -- as about one pilot per *day* discovers when
they bust the Class B here thinking they have a clearance just because
they've talked to Approach and they've been given instructions that seem
to point them at the class B (usually all that happens is that Approach
gently chews them out on air and vectors them back out of trouble or
gives them an instant clearance, which is probably the best way to deal
with this).
I fly out of Oakland (KOAK), a rather busy airport whose class C
airspace underlies KSFO's class B. It's a complicated airspace, and woe
betide any pilot who thinks that the usual departure instructions from
Clearance (actually Ground at Oakland -- they're combined for VFR)
contains a clearance (into, say, class B airspace) instead of just a
bunch of usually fairly general instructions ("remain VFR at or below
2,500', squawk 0336..." (they don't usually even tell you departure
frequencies -- Tower will do that). In fact, tellingly, few
Oakland-based VFR pilots think in terms of "clearance" when departing
Oakland VFR because they talk to Ground, not Clearance, for their
departure instructions.
Ground (i.e. Clearance) will specifically *ask* if you need a class B
clearance if you're heading towards (say) Salinas, when a reasonably
direct route would take you through the class B, and it's not one of the
busy periods. If so, and it's available, you'll actually get a
*clearance* from Clearance -- "12R, cleared into the Class Bravo
airspace at or below 5,500', on departure right turn heading 090 for
Lake Chabot, expect vectors for traffic by Chabot [etc. -- whatever]".
This will be in addition to any other instructions.
But normally, you just get instructions -- and it's crucial to know that
they're not clearances in any formal or useful sense (especially if the
FAA catches you breaking class B airspace). As a student, you need to
know the difference between a clearance and instructions -- and if you
fly in complicated airspace, it may be the difference between busting
something and not.
I'll shut up now.
Hamish
Greg Esres
"conflict resolution" ? According to one chart I have, it only
applies to Class C.
L Smith
> L Smith <lls...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>From: "Peter Duniho"
>>>>
>>>>Last time I flew into Birmingham, AL (Class C), a VFR clearance was required
>>>>before taxi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Nope. A VFR clearance has never been required before taxi, or at any other
>>>time, at Birmingham, or at any other Class C field in the US. Clearances for
>>>VFR operations in US Class C airspace do not exist.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>Well, yes, but in most cases when you contact Clearance as a departing
>VFR flight, they're not issuing you a *clearance*, just instructions.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>But just "establishing those two-way communications" is not getting a
>*clearance* in any formal sense.
>
>I think Stephen's point -- which is valid, if sometimes a little
>obtusely put -- is that in the US, a clearance is a well-defined thing
>with a well-defined syntax and semantics, for well-defined purposes.
>
>
Unfortunately, Stephen never bothered to make this distinction clear.
It was not until
others posted their replies that I was able to see the difference. His
initial reply to the
suggestion that people were getting VFR "clearances" was nothing more
than "no, you're
wrong." There was no attempt to explain why people were wrong, just a
flat-out statement
that they were. How much extra effort would it have taken him to say
"No, you're not
getting a clearance. A clearance has a specific legal meaning that
doesn't apply in this case.
All you're getting is an instruction." Would the extra typing have
proven too much for
his fingers?
Rich Lemert
>
>
Newps
Separation means there is a standard, like 3 miles. Conflict resolution
means the aircraft will miss, but just barely. It also may depend on
the individual class C. While the .65 does not require VFR's to be
separated from each other, some facilities such as the one I work at
make it mandatory in their own internal orders. All facilities have
their own position binders wherre they can set their rules more, but not
less, stringent than the .65.
Jim Kendall
Special VFR is not a clearance ?
Jim K.
Robert Moore
> So....are you saying that
> Special VFR is not a clearance ?
No...he's saying that "Special VFR" is not "VFR".
Bob Moore
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/20/03 6:12 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3E2BE7AA...@usol.com>
>
>So....are you saying that
>Special VFR is not a clearance ?
>
Special VFR is not VFR.
Greg Esres
It also may depend on the individual class C. While the .65 does not
require VFR's to be separated from each other,
>>
Thank you. The document I have, which came from the FAR preambles,
says that Conflict Resolution is applied "Between IFR and VFR
operations." It also says that the types of Aircraft separation
provided are "IFR, SVFR, and runway operations."
However, this doesn't jibe with any other documentation that I have,
unless they consider conflict resolution to be "separation."
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/19/03 2:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3E2B0BA...@mindspring.com>
>
> In other posts, you've indicated that this statement requires no
>further clarification - that
>it is sufficient in and of itself. However, speaking as a low-time
>student pilot, I must report
>to you that your original statement to this effect was directly
>responsible for my confusion
>on the subject. If it weren't for other, more helpful posters, I would
>still be trying to reconcile
>your comments with my experience.
>
How does your experience conflict with my comments?
>
> For the record, my training is taking place at RDU, a class C airport.
>Prior to every
>flight I've made from this airport, I've been required by my instructor
>to contact clearance
>delivery. I have not tried to contact ground directly so I don't know
>what would happen
>if I did, but if the local procedures say "contact clearance delivery"
>then that's what I'm
>going to do.
>
That's fine, but that's not the issue here. Simply talking with clearance
delivery does not constitute receiving a clearance.
>
>Furthermore, my understanding is that when I'm returning to RDU's
>airspace after
>practicing at one of the surrounding uncontrolled fields, I need to
>establish communications
>with RDU's controllers before entering that airspace. I recognize that I
>don't need to hear
>the 'magic words' ("cleared to enter ..."), but I'm not sure I want to
>find out what happens
>if I just barge on in without having "established those two-way
>communications.
>
If you enter Class C airspace without having established communications you've
violated FAR 91.130 and may face enforcement action.
Larry Dighera
McNicoll) (Steven P. McNicoll) wrote in Message ID
<20030120113521...@mb-mw.aol.com>:
>Simply talking with clearance delivery does not constitute
>receiving a clearance.
While Clearance Delivery's utterances to VFR flights may be delivered
in virtually the identical format (including the expectation of
readback) as IFR clearances, they do not constitute formal clearances,
as they lack the implied separation services provided by ATC for true
clearances; they are merely instructions.
Is that the lesson you're teaching here?
From a pilot's point of view, instructions, like clearances, must be
followed; they are so similar as to require the same action. Neither
relieve the PIC of see-and-avoid responsibilities. The distinction
between them is only truly appreciated by ATC.
From an Air Traffic Controller's point of view, there is considerably
more work (separation maintenance to established criteria) involved in
a clearance. But, that ATC effort is largely invisible to the PIC.
Perhaps that is the source of the misunderstanding.
Newps
You don't have access to all the documentation. Nobody does. Every
facility develops their own procedures to solve their unique problems
with airspace, runway setup, satellite airports, weather, etc.
Jim Kendall
it isn't VFR ... certainly isn't IFR....
so I guess that means there are definitely
more than two types of flight rules, eh ?
I wonder what *other* types are out there ?
Jim
Greg Esres
Are Class C controllers required to provide standard separation
between IFR and VFR, or only conflict resolution?
Newps
There is no standard separation, so if you merely keep your paint on
your plane we call it good.
Greg Esres
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:06:17 GMT, Newps <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>T
Doug
"Steven P. McNicoll" <spmcn...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message > >From:
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/20/03 9:56 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <_x3X9.3590$Sv3.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>
>IFR is not airspace.
>
Fish is not bicycle.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/19/03 4:12 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <hamishxyz-2FF4D...@news.supernews.com>
>
>I think Stephen's point -- which is valid, if sometimes a little
>obtusely put -- is that in the US, a clearance is a well-defined thing
>with a well-defined syntax and semantics, for well-defined purposes.
>Departing or arriving VFR at a typical Class C airport is not one of
>those purposes, so what you get when you call Clearance or Approach in
>the context discussed here is not what's defined as a clearance in the
>US -- just a set of instructions.
>
But with regard to US Class C airspace those instructions have the properties
of and perform the functions of a clearance, it's not a clearance ONLY because
the FAA says it's not. This would be so much simpler if the US conformed to
ICAO standards and practices and required a clearance for VFR operations in
Class C airspace.
Hamish Reid
spmcn...@aol.comnospam (Steven P. McNicoll) wrote:
> >I think Stephen's point -- which is valid, if sometimes a little
> >obtusely put -- is that in the US, a clearance is a well-defined thing
> >with a well-defined syntax and semantics, for well-defined purposes.
> >Departing or arriving VFR at a typical Class C airport is not one of
> >those purposes, so what you get when you call Clearance or Approach in
> >the context discussed here is not what's defined as a clearance in the
> >US -- just a set of instructions.
>
> But with regard to US Class C airspace those instructions have the properties
> of and perform the functions of a clearance, it's not a clearance ONLY because
> the FAA says it's not. This would be so much simpler if the US conformed to
> ICAO standards and practices and required a clearance for VFR operations in
> Class C airspace.
Indeed. And we'd see a remarkable reduction in student confusion and the
resulting endless Usenet threads on the subject...
Is it just a historical thing that it is the way it is?
Hamish
Andrew Gideon
> No, that's not correct. Either the controller misspoke or your memory is
> a bit off the mark.
As a student pilot doing my second XC, I did experience a bit of confusion
when departing ABE for the second leg. I'm not sure quite how it occurred,
but somehow clearance delivery came to the opinion that I was departing
IFR. I forget the precise verbiage given that it was a few years ago.
However, I remember being told that I'd have to wait for a while unless I
was willing to depart VFR.
I know that I didn't say anything about being IFR. But...did I perhaps
request a "clearance" (to Wilkes-Barre)? Would that have been enough to
cause the controller to assume I was trying to depart IFR?
I've always wondered how that occurred. I assumed it was a controller just
working "out of habit", but perhaps I triggered the confusion myself. I'd
never considered that it might just have been the one word misused until I
read this thread.
On the other hand...I'm pretty sure that I'd have mentioned "flight
following" in my request. So...I don't know.
- Andrew
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/19/03 6:44 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <ughm2vg7drhmgo3df...@4ax.com>
>
>Can you explain the difference between "separation services" and
>"conflict resolution" ? According to one chart I have, it only
>applies to Class C.
>
All I know about Conflict Resolution is what's written in the Pilot/Controller
Glossary:
CONFLICT RESOLUTION- The resolution of potential conflictions between aircraft
that are radar identified and in communication with ATC by ensuring that radar
targets do not touch. Pertinent traffic advisories shall be issued when this
procedure is applied.
Note: This procedure shall not be provided utilizing mosaic radar systems.
As for separation services in Class C airspace, standard separation is provided
for IFR aircraft, just as it is in Class B, D, and E airspace. In addition,
VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft. VFR/IFR separation can be
visual, 500 feet vertical, or target resolution.
TARGET RESOLUTION- A process to ensure that correlated radar targets do not
touch. Target resolution shall be applied as follows:
a. Between the edges of two primary targets or the edges of the ASR-9 primary
target symbol.
b. Between the end of the beacon control slash and the edge of a primary
target.
c. Between the ends of two beacon control slashes.
Note 1: MANDATORY TRAFFIC ADVISORIES AND SAFETY ALERTS SHALL BE ISSUED WHEN
THIS PROCEDURE IS USED.
Note 2: This procedure shall not be provided utilizing mosaic radar systems.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/20/03 9:35 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <bh5o2v0kgq87bc4iq...@4ax.com>
>
>Thank you. The document I have, which came from the FAR preambles,
>says that Conflict Resolution is applied "Between IFR and VFR
>operations." It also says that the types of Aircraft separation
>provided are "IFR, SVFR, and runway operations."
>
>However, this doesn't jibe with any other documentation that I have,
>unless they consider conflict resolution to be "separation."
>
The radar separation standard between IFR and VFR aircraft in Class C airspace
is called Target Resolution. At least it is in the US.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/20/03 5:22 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <421p2vc6lduadop4o...@4ax.com>
>
>I guess the question is:
>
>Are Class C controllers required to provide standard separation
>between IFR and VFR, or only conflict resolution?
>
Class C controllers are required to separate IFR traffic from VFR traffic.
Standard VFR/IFR separation is either visual, 500 feet vertical, or target
resolution. Target resolution means the radar returns don't touch, it's
commonly called "green between".
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/20/03 12:12 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8tdo2vgf8pk8ciqv6...@news-server.socal.rr.com>
>
>While Clearance Delivery's utterances to VFR flights may be delivered
>in virtually the identical format (including the expectation of
>readback) as IFR clearances, they do not constitute formal clearances,
>as they lack the implied separation services provided by ATC for true
>clearances; they are merely instructions.
>
>Is that the lesson you're teaching here?
>
No. The lesson is that the US, unlike other ICAO states, does not issue
clearances to VFR aircraft in Class C airspace.
>
>From a pilot's point of view, instructions, like clearances, must be
>followed; they are so similar as to require the same action. Neither
>relieve the PIC of see-and-avoid responsibilities. The distinction
>between them is only truly appreciated by ATC.
>
>From an Air Traffic Controller's point of view, there is considerably
>more work (separation maintenance to established criteria) involved in
>a clearance. But, that ATC effort is largely invisible to the PIC.
>
With regard to VFR aircraft in US Class C airspace, there is no more work
involved in a clearance over the instructions issued to provide separation.
They serve the same purpose.
>
>Perhaps that is the source of the misunderstanding.
>
I believe the source of the misunderstanding is the US decision not to issue
clearances for VFR operations in Class C airspace. In all other situations,
wherever separation is provided a clearance is issued.
Steven P. McNicoll
>Date: 1/21/03 10:36 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <hamishxyz-B0A49...@news.supernews.com>
>
>Indeed. And we'd see a remarkable reduction in student confusion and the
>resulting endless Usenet threads on the subject...
>
>Is it just a historical thing that it is the way it is?
>
Beats me. A clearance wasn't required in the US predecessor to Class C
airspace, Airport Radar Service Areas, so that may be it. I've never seen any
explanation to this difference from the ICAO standard. The Preamble to Part 71
does not mention it at all.