How should simulator time be logged in logbook and 8710?

[David Challis]

How should you log time (what categories) for time spent in an AST300
(approved simulator), when an instrument instructor is present? Clearly you
log "simulator" time and "dual" time. Do you log "simulated instrument
(hood)" time? Since the AST is a multiengine sim with retractable
gear/flaps/controllable prop, do you log "complex" time and "multi-engine
land" time? How about "PIC" if you are M/E and instrument rated?

On a 8710 form (application for pilot cert) what is the difference between
"training device" and "simulator"?

Thanks.

[Mark Kolber]

"David Challis" <cha...@home.com> wrote [snip]:

>How should you log time (what categories) for time spent in an AST300
>(approved simulator), when an instrument instructor is present? Clearly you
>log "simulator" time and "dual" time. Do you log "simulated instrument
>(hood)" time? Since the AST is a multiengine sim with retractable
>gear/flaps/controllable prop, do you log "complex" time and "multi-engine
>land" time? How about "PIC" if you are M/E and instrument rated?

You log simulator and dual and nothing else. It's a simulator, not an
aircraft. So no hood and most importantly, no flight time of any kind
- not PIC, complex, multi, etc.
=======================================
______|______ Mark Kolber
\(o)/ Denver, Colorado
o O o www.midlifeflight.com
=======================================
replace "spamaway" with "mlf" for email

[David Challis]

Mark,

What about 61.51g(4) that states: "A flight simulator or flight training
device may be used by a person to log instrument flight time, provide an
authorized instructor is present during simulated flight"?

Thanks

"Mark Kolber" <spam...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:8q3t3s8oqqr45ebsm...@4ax.com...

[Mark Kolber]

"David Challis" <cha...@home.com> wrote [snip]:

>What about 61.51g(4) that states: "A flight simulator or flight training

>device may be used by a person to log instrument flight time, provide an
>authorized instructor is present during simulated flight"?

Right, but in most logbooks its carried in its own column, just as we
separate hood time from actual instrument time.

Also, though there are definitions of "Pilot time" (which I've never
seen counted) and "Training time" (ground) in 61.1 which contemplate
simulators of various ilk, the definition of "Flight time" in FAR 1
and the definition of "Flight training" in 61.1 clearly contemplate an
"aircraft". If you look at the definitions of "flight simulator" and
"flight training device" in 61.1, you'll see that they are "replicas"
of aircraft. They are not themselves aircraft.

Not, the section you quote is a limited exception to all this, but
only for the limited purpose of being able to add you PCATD time to
your total instrument time. It doesn't translate into make and model
flight time, complex flight time, high performance flight time, PIC
time, or any flight time totals other than instrument time. It may
even be a valid interpretation that the instruction received is
"ground" rather than "dual" (I recently did some sim time with a very
experienced CFI/ ex-controller and he made a point of leaving the
"dual" column blank)

This is an extremely informal opinion based on my reading of the regs
and some discussions I've had with experienced CFIs who claim to know
what they're talking about.

There are some very experienced Reg gurus on this group who, I am
sure, will tear my analysis apart! <g>

[Bob Gardner]

I ran an AST-300 business for eight years, David--the FAA was located across the
street and I got a ton of business from them, so I have a pretty good idea how
to answer your questions.

Simulator time is simulator time. It is not single or multiengine time, and it
is not complex time--don't try to make more of it than it is.. It is not
simulated instrument time, it is instrument time. None of it is flight time. PIC
is logged when you are the sole manipulator of an airplane for which you are
rated--are you rated in AST-300s? (Send copy of your license, please). It is
dual instruction.

I have been using the term "simulator" pretty loosely, because we tend to do
that as general aviation pilots. However, what we call sims (like the AST-300)
are really ground training devices. Simulators are those multi-million-dollar
devices that replicate the panel and aerodynamics of a specific airplane (747,
King Air, etc) with every switch and knob in its correct position. Can't say
that about any general aviation sim until you go to FlightSafety, Simuflite, or
someplace like that.

Bob Gardner

David Challis wrote:

> How should you log time (what categories) for time spent in an AST300
> (approved simulator), when an instrument instructor is present? Clearly you
> log "simulator" time and "dual" time. Do you log "simulated instrument
> (hood)" time? Since the AST is a multiengine sim with retractable
> gear/flaps/controllable prop, do you log "complex" time and "multi-engine
> land" time? How about "PIC" if you are M/E and instrument rated?
>

[Bob Gardner]

The word "flight" doesn't appear in the cited reg in my copy of the FARs. The
FAA Aviation News said a long time ago in response to a similar question "The
extension cord isn't long enough."

Bob Gardner

David Challis wrote:

> Mark,

>
> What about 61.51g(4) that states: "A flight simulator or flight training
> device may be used by a person to log instrument flight time, provide an
> authorized instructor is present during simulated flight"?
>

> Thanks
>
> "Mark Kolber" <spam...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
> news:8q3t3s8oqqr45ebsm...@4ax.com...

> > "David Challis" <cha...@home.com> wrote [snip]:
> >

> > >How should you log time (what categories) for time spent in an AST300
> > >(approved simulator), when an instrument instructor is present? Clearly
> you
> > >log "simulator" time and "dual" time. Do you log "simulated instrument
> > >(hood)" time? Since the AST is a multiengine sim with retractable
> > >gear/flaps/controllable prop, do you log "complex" time and "multi-engine
> > >land" time? How about "PIC" if you are M/E and instrument rated?
> >

> > You log simulator and dual and nothing else. It's a simulator, not an
> > aircraft. So no hood and most importantly, no flight time of any kind
> > - not PIC, complex, multi, etc.

[Nort...@capeonramp.net.com]

Sounds like BED, Bob.
Kent Berwick a skipper yet?

David

On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:39:43 GMT, "David Challis" <cha...@home.com>
wrote:

>How should you log time (what categories) for time spent in an AST300
>(approved simulator), when an instrument instructor is present? Clearly you
>log "simulator" time and "dual" time. Do you log "simulated instrument
>(hood)" time? Since the AST is a multiengine sim with retractable
>gear/flaps/controllable prop, do you log "complex" time and "multi-engine
>land" time? How about "PIC" if you are M/E and instrument rated?
>