Crosswind technique
FOXNOSE
a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
upwind wing then straightening out in the flare. Can anyone tell me what
the advantages are of one over another? Thanks.
Joachim Beek
>From: fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE)
>Subject: Crosswind technique
>Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:27:06 -0400
If you're already slipping (the rudder/aileron technique), then straightening
out in the flare is easier since one wing is already lower and you'd like to
land on the upwind wheel first anyway. If you crab first, then you have a new
problem to solve when on short final/crossing the threshold; that is, you
quickly have to find how much rudder/aileron to apply to correct for
crosswind (can be tricky in a gusting x-wind). For passengers, crabbing first
may be more comfortable since the plane's attitude is level, rather than one
wing low. It's really whatever works for you; for me, it's slipping all the
way down.
Hope this helps,
Joachim
be...@smd6.jsc.nasa.gov
Allen Miller
[slip vs crab on crosswind landing]
> >the advantages are of one over another? Thanks.
Someone has already summed up the question pretty well, but there
is one more factor. A few aircraft (usually low-wing) have restrictions
on how long you may keep the aircraft in a slip. This is because
in some designs it is possible to uncover the fuel outlet if the
airplane is held in a one-wing-low attitude for a long time. As
far as I know, no C172's have this restriction. However, if you
find yourself flying such a plane in the future, you want to
be aware of this and plan accordingly. This might mean using a
crab on long final and switching over when you get to short final.
Personally, I prefer setting up the slip early and avoid having to
make any major adjustments when I'm low and slow.
--
Allen Miller PP-ASEL KB0NDD | Buttons.................Check
mil...@polaron.physics.colostate.edu | Dials...................Check
Department of Physics | Switches................Check
Colorado State University | Little colored lights...Check
Fort Collins CO | - Calvin
Donovan Hammer;685-2499;60-850;;sptekwv1
Actually what you have is an absence of a crosswind technique. What you
do will work only for tricycle gear and in relatively light crosswinds.
A tail dragger would not be tolerant of that technique and many low wing
trikes can also be damaged in strong crosswinds if you keep doing what you're
doing.
Straightening out at the last minute doesn't prevent you from touching down
drifting side ways unless you use the cross control. (I've heard that large
aircraft such as airliners use the technique that you descrbe but they have
more inertia to overcome before the drift starts.) The crab just kept you lined
up with the center line during your approach. If you the straighten out
without the use of cross controls you will start to drift down wind of the
centerline. You're getting away with it because you probably have not flown
in strong crosswinds and you using a C-172. I dare you to find documentation
that suggests a type of crosswind technique that doesn't use cross control
someplace in the approach. The arguments usually concern where the cross
control starts.
Get used to using cross controls farther out on the final. Many pilots with
good crosswind technique use a crab until the last portion of the approach but
will move into the cross control well before the flare. Depending on the
aircraft I will usually go into the cross control shortly after turning final.
In strong crosswind conditions, this will help you determine if you can hold
off the drift. I mainly fly in tail draggers these days so I am much more
concerned about touching down straight (i.e. with no drifting) than when I was
a trike gear pilot.
--
-Don Hammer-
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Stephanie Belser
Eek! That's not going to work in anything other than a steady
crosswind. Even so, if you don't immediately land, the crosswind's going
to move you off the centerline (or the runway).
The technique won't work at all in a taildragger. It's far better to
establish the amount of cross-controlling needed on final rather than
take a SWAG in the flare.
And while it may be nice to have the wings level on touchdown, it is by
no means mandatory *provided* that you land on the mains in a nosedragger
(keep the nosewheel off, right? :-) ).
Best bet: get some taildragger time if you can.
Cary N. Mariash
be...@smd6.jsc.nasa.gov (Joachim Beek) writes:
> >As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
> >a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
> >last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
> >However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
> >upwind wing then straightening out in the flare. Can anyone tell me what
> >the advantages are of one over another? Thanks.
I too learned and preferred the crab technique. However, I also learned
the wing low technique (slipping) and began using it more often as I
had to perform x-wind landings. I now find that I actually prefer the
wing low technique because I am correcting with rudder all the way in
on final and therefore do not have to guess on how much rudder to use
to keep the plane aligned at touchdown. The wing low technique also
makes it easier to land on the center line. Lastly, I find it easier to
make the transition to other airplanes when using the wing low
technique to land the plane on the centerline and aligned with the
runway. I know of one pilot who failed the PP checkride because he
could not perform a wing low (slipping) landing in a x-wind (another
good reason to master the wing low technique).
Cary N. Mariash
PP-ASEL-IA
mar...@epx.cis.umn.edu
Roy Smith
> A few aircraft (usually low-wing) have restrictions
> on how long you may keep the aircraft in a slip.
It just occurred to me that slips to a landing might be another reason
low-wing planes have more dihedral than high-wing ones, i.e. to keep the
low wingtip from hitting the ground in a crosswind landing.
--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Bruce Bateman
>In article <31nkcq$4...@search01.news.aol.com> fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE) writes:
>I tried "slipping", that is, tipping the wing into the wind and then
>compensating with opposite rudder a couple of times on final, but it REALLY
>FREAKED ME OUT, so I aborted the manouver and went to a crab instead (I
>haven't practiced this with an instructor yet, so that may be part of my
>reluctance). I always end up crabbing on crosswind landings (up to my 6 knot
>solo limit at Palo Alto), then straightening out during the flare.
>
>...<snip>
You should get out with your instructor and practice sideslips. After a little
while they'll become second nature and you won't even think about doing it,
it'll just sort of happen all by itself. The mental process becomes one of
using rudder to keep alignment with the centerline and aelleron (spelling?)
to correct sideways drift due to crosswind. Just becomse automatic.
The problem that I see with crabbing all the way down to the flare (or just
before the flare) is variations of just what you describe happening to you.
You either end up touching down with a sideways drift or not correctly
aligned because your timing or judgement wasn't perfect. Touching down
this way puts a lot of sideways loading on the landing gear which isn't
too cool, especially if you're flying a retract.
Bruce Bateman
Art
>From: fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE)
>Subject: Crosswind technique
>Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:27:06 -0400
>As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
I'm having the exact same problem as you are, but in a low wing Piper Warrior.
I tried "slipping", that is, tipping the wing into the wind and then
compensating with opposite rudder a couple of times on final, but it REALLY
FREAKED ME OUT, so I aborted the manouver and went to a crab instead (I
haven't practiced this with an instructor yet, so that may be part of my
reluctance). I always end up crabbing on crosswind landings (up to my 6 knot
solo limit at Palo Alto), then straightening out during the flare.
I think I was graphically introduced to the problem of simply crabbing on my
last flight. It was my first solo cross country and I was returning to Palo
Alto. The wind was strong and gusty, but still within my limits. I crabbed in
on final, got bumped a couple of times, straightened out on the flair and
touched down at about 68 knots. I bounced off slightly with wings level, then
suddenly a gust caught my upwind wing and pushed the airplane into a very
uncomfortable angle with respect to the runway! I just held on there waiting
for the airplane to straighten out on its own, which it did after a couple of
seconds. I think the wheels final touched down and "pulled" me into a straight
landing roll. This all happened very quickly, of course.
I'm not sure that it was dangerous, but I certainly didn't like the feeling of
being tossed around at the exact moment of touchdown, especially since the
airplane seemed to be facing abit sideways! You see, Palo Alto's runway is a
generous 65' wide :-) I think that by touching down on the upwind wheel first,
its harder for the wind to push the airplane sideways (or even over!). I also
don't recommend bouncing (due to excessive speed) during crosswind! Make sure
your final speed and flare are as close to perfect as possible.
Art Laursen
Tim Rissmann
>last flight. It was my first solo cross country and I was returning to Palo
>Alto. The wind was strong and gusty, but still within my limits. I crabbed in
>on final, got bumped a couple of times, straightened out on the flair and
>touched down at about 68 knots. I bounced off slightly with wings level, then
>suddenly a gust caught my upwind wing and pushed the airplane into a very
>uncomfortable angle with respect to the runway! I just held on there waiting
>for the airplane to straighten out on its own, which it did after a couple of
>seconds. I think the wheels final touched down and "pulled" me into a straight
>landing roll. This all happened very quickly, of course.
I don't mean to say that you don't need to learn proper x-wind technique
so you come down on the centerline with no appreciable drift (I slip it
in starting just after I turn final and get lined up properly...) but:
Has anyone else really stopped and taken the time to watch how much damage a
Cessna product can actually absorb? I have seen (and participated in during
the early landings...) drops from 4 or 5 feet, bounces landing on one wheel,
multiple bounces starting from 4 or 5 feet, landings with so much drift
that I was afraid that they would shear a tire off...drops with so much
drift that. . . .you get the idea...
You have to give the tire manufacturers and Cessna some credit here...
These things can take a beating...
You also have to give credit to the many instructors who sit patiently,
hands off the controls while you execute a beautiful flare 5 feet off the
ground, then another, and another...
A converstion between a fellow student and myself after one of his early solo
flights...
Him: "I did 3 really good landings in a row..."
Me: "I only saw your last landing..." I say politely having witnessed the
final bounce-o-rama that ended his flight...
Him: "That's when I did them..." he says smiling...
Tim
C. Taylor Sutherland, III
In article <1994Aug4.1...@microunity.com> st...@microunity.com (Bruce Bateman) writes:
>In article <art.8.0...@alantec.com> a...@alantec.com (Art) writes:
>>In article <31nkcq$4...@search01.news.aol.com> fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE) writes:
>>>From: fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE)
>>>Subject: Crosswind technique
>>>Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:27:06 -0400
>>
Easter I think it was. This runway was set up so that there is always a
crosswind, no lie, anyway...
I was trying a little bit of crabbing and lowering the winward wing and
correcting with the rudder to keep from flying off center line. Actually,
the crabbing was not intended but when I kept the wing down to stay on
center line and corrected with the rudder to keep from turning, it turned
into a vicious crab which would have caused problems at final touchdown,
needing to let go of the rudder just enough to bring the nose to where is
was actually facing down the runway. A true slip was not the way seeing
as how I had underestimated the x-wind and was allready too low. I had a
fairly good approach considering and just when I went to flair (which I
HAVE to learn not to do too soon!) I "let go" of the rudder. Anyway, I
let go too much and the plane lurched and started to roll into the
direction the wing was down which would have been bad as I was allready
60 knots in a 172 and turning would mean a stall (not to mention the hill
over in that direction :) ) So I quickly corrected again with the rudder
and had to pull the nose back up as I was now about to dive into the
numbers...I told you I keep flaring too soon. And as soon as I pulled
the nose up...BBBUUUUZZZZZZ!!!!!! The stall warning buzzer lights up, so
I add power which tended to bring the nose up further and lower my
airspeed even more, which I quickly corrected. Now the plane is facing
the other direction (right instead of left) so I pull left again and nose
over to gain airspeed which I did. I was ready for a hard bump so I
applied a little back pressure and tried to fly it to the other end of
the runway, good way to do it... This dropped my airspeed again so I
added more power and nosed over again. Just before I HIT the runway, I
pulled up one more time to save the nose gear and cut power. Stall.
Luckily I was only a foot and a half off the ground. WHAM. Now I know
just what kind of punishment those spring mounts for the rear wheels can
take.
My girlfriend, who I was going to take up for a spin, saw this and got
right back in the car. I don't blame her, but I had to try that again.
The funny thing is, the very next landing, you couldn't even tell I had
touched down! I never said I was consistent...just alive. Kellie saw
THIS landing and got back out of the car. I taxied up to her, killed the
engine to let her get in and then tried to start it again which it wouldn't
do. I think it had had enough for one day.
--
<->C. Taylor Sutherland, III <-> You will know pain. And you will know fear.
<->tay...@hubcap.clemson.edu<-> And then you will die.
<->IRC-Nick: NIV <-> Have a pleasant flight.
<->Long live Amiga!<-----------> :-) <---------->Someone BUY Commodore!<->
William LeFebvre
>In article <31nkcq$4...@search01.news.aol.com> fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE) writes:
>>From: fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE)
>>Subject: Crosswind technique
>>Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:27:06 -0400
>
>>As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
>>a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
>>last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
>>However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
>>upwind wing then straightening out in the flare. Can anyone tell me what
>>the advantages are of one over another? Thanks.
>
>I'm having the exact same problem as you are, but in a low wing Piper Warrior.
>I tried "slipping", that is, tipping the wing into the wind and then
>compensating with opposite rudder a couple of times on final, but it REALLY
>FREAKED ME OUT, so I aborted the manouver and went to a crab instead
Slipping for a crosswind is a much better technique (especially for a
student) than "crab and kick" in small airplanes. Go out with an
instructor and practice them at altitude. That will help you get used
to the feel and the "unusuall attitude" that slips induce.
Second, learn how to do them correctly. Here is the technique that
finally worked for me (crosswind landings were the hardest thing for
me to learn as a student):
After the turn to final, crab in to the wind and line up your COURSE over
the ground with the runway centerline. If there's a croswind, your
nose will not be pointed at the runway. This is exactly the same thing
you do for crab and kick, just do it right after completing the turn to
final. Now use rudder to point the nose at the runway and simultaneously
use some opposite aileron. In other words, don't compensate with rudder
but rather use rudder as the primary attitude control and compensate
with aileron. Use the aileron to correct your sideways ground track while
keeping the nose pointed at the runway with the rudder.
If you do it right, the low wing main wheel will touch down first,
followed by the other main, then the nose.
Once you get the hang of it, it is the best way to maintain control
of the airplane thruout the landing.
If in gusty high wind conditions, make SURE you keep the wing pointing
in to the wind DOWN. I've also been caught by a gust of wind (even while
doing a crosswind slip-to-landing) while trying to land a tiger in a
stiff crosswind. The result was surprising and rather unpleasant.
Fortunately, the instincts engrained in to me by my instructors took
over and I immediately applied full power and got out of there (along
with a few expletives).
>touched down at about 68 knots. I bounced off slightly with wings level, then
>suddenly a gust caught my upwind wing and pushed the airplane into a very
>uncomfortable angle with respect to the runway! I just held on there waiting
>for the airplane to straighten out on its own
That may have not been to wise. Next time go around, unless you
really think you are too low and slow to do so safely. My tangle with
a gusty crosswind put me on a direct course for a runway light. EEk.
>I think that by touching down on the upwind wheel first,
>its harder for the wind to push the airplane sideways (or even over!).
That is exactly correct. There's also the notion that you can
stabilize the slip on final and hold the attitude all the to (and
thru) the flare. No last second changes means no last second timing
decisions. Better control and better protection against gusts.
And you do remember to add half the gust factor to your speed on final,
don't you?
William LeFebvre
Decision and Information Sciences
Argonne National Laboratory
lefe...@dis.anl.gov
leppik peter
>
> I was trying a little bit of crabbing and lowering the winward wing and
> correcting with the rudder to keep from flying off center line. Actually,
> Luckily I was only a foot and a half off the ground. WHAM. Now I know
> just what kind of punishment those spring mounts for the rear wheels can
> take.
If this had been me, I would have gone around when the plane first "lurched"
in the wrong direction. I'd much rather go around the pattern again than
try to salvage a bad crosswind approach.
A couple hours with an instructor doing crosswind landings would probably
help your confidence level a lot. It sure did for me.
--
Peter Leppik-- p-l...@uiuc.edu
I'm Not A Physicist, But I Play One On The Net
Jeff Phelps
of a really good instructor (read old) there is a very important reason
for wing low method. When one drops the wing, one can basically fly the
airplane with only the opposide rudder. This simplifies things very much.
Movements from gusts are easily correctable and when done right there is
no drift. I was taught to use a crab on long final and use wing low on
short. I personally do not want to find out how much side load a planes
gear can take...
Jim Hanrahan
>As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
>a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
>last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
>However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
>upwind wing then straightening out in the flare.
As others have said, some cross-control is needed to avoid drift and side
loading the landing gear. Back in my student days the low-wing method was
emphasized and the "crab/cross-control at the end" introduced but not
recommended. I will crab then cross control at the end (start before the
flare) if the crosswind is small. For any appreciable crosswind I will always
use the low-wing into the wind. This technique will counter severe crosswinds
up to the value in your POH (after that you are a test pilot). I have had the
rudder hit the floor on approach (ie not enough available) and it is good to
find this out early on final.
Most students don't get to experience 15 knot crosswind components very much;
in fact I know a lot of general aviation pilots who choose not to fly on those
days. They know that gusts and crosswinds will require very good pilot
technique.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Hanrahan, COM/IA Naval Surface Warfare Center
hanr...@oasys.dt.navy.mil Code 822, Annapolis, Maryland
Bruce Bateman
>
> Well I had an "interesting" cross wind landing a couple of months ago,
> Easter I think it was. This runway was set up so that there is always a
> crosswind, no lie, anyway...
>
> I was trying a little bit of crabbing and lowering the winward wing and
> correcting with the rudder to keep from flying off center line. Actually,
> the crabbing was not intended but when I kept the wing down to stay on
> center line and corrected with the rudder to keep from turning, it turned
Seems to me like your problem here was that you had "reversed" the proper control
inputs. When doing a side slip to a landing, you use rudder to keep the
longitudinal axis of the plane in the same orientation as the centerline, i.e.
keeping the nose pointed the same direction as the runway. If you're doing
this correctly, there is no crab angle. Then you use aileron to correct for
drift. If you see that you're drifting down wind, to drop the wing further.
This will tend to swing the nose into the wind (i.e. crab) so you add more
rudder to keep the nose pointed down the runway.
Now from your description, it sounds like you were doing just the opposite,
using rudder to correct for drift then using aileron to attempt to maintain
alignment with the runway. Won't work.
Bruce Bateman
Doug Vetter
>It just occurred to me that slips to a landing might be another reason
>low-wing planes have more dihedral than high-wing ones, i.e. to keep the
>low wingtip from hitting the ground in a crosswind landing.
I may be drifting off topic, but....
I don't think this is a design concern. :-) The main reason low-wing airplanes
have more dihedral is to compensate for the shift in center of gravity and
resultant decrease in lateral (roll) stability the low-wing aircraft
experiences. Putting a wing on the bottom of an aircraft is akin to trying to
balance a yardstick (drumstick, whatever) vertically on top of your hand--it's
naturally more unstable than holding that stick below your hand (in which case
it naturally balances itself). High-wing aircraft have dihedral, but not as
much as low-wings for this reason.
I flew a motorglider for a while (with a 63-foot wingspan, no less) and noticed
what you have...it's damn near impossible to drop a wing while landing it in a
crosswind...the tip will hit the ground even if you're still well above the
runway! Needless to say, there were times when the 152s were out flying while
the motorgliders were grounded due to crosswinds!
Doug Vetter, CFI
Admin, Synergy Online, NJ
Tim Kramer
> In article <art.8.0...@alantec.com>, Art <a...@alantec.com> wrote:
> >In article <31nkcq$4...@search01.news.aol.com> fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE) writes:
> >>From: fox...@aol.com (FOXNOSE)
> >>Subject: Crosswind technique
> >>Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:27:06 -0400
> >
> >>As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
> >>a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
> >>last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
> >>However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
> >>upwind wing then straightening out in the flare. Can anyone tell me what
> >>the advantages are of one over another? Thanks.
> >
> >I'm having the exact same problem as you are, but in a low wing Piper Warrior.
> >I tried "slipping", that is, tipping the wing into the wind and then
> >compensating with opposite rudder a couple of times on final, but it REALLY
> >FREAKED ME OUT, so I aborted the manouver and went to a crab instead
>
I don't know of anyone teaching the crab and kick out technique anymore, it
has no advantages and several disadvantages like being darn hard on the plane.
I too had truble mastering the side slip method, but once I did cross wind
landings actually become a fun challenge. A CFI buddy showed me a good
technique to get comfortable with the side slip by practicing a manuver
called the "Dutch Roll". Next time you're up get the airplane trimmed in
level flight and simultaneously apply aileron and gentle opposite rudder,
until you've got about 20 degrees of bank and the nose is level and pointed
in the direction of flight. Gently roll out of the bank and keep rolling
to the other direction doing the same with the rudder The rudder will typically
lag the ailerons. The trick is to keep the nose from moving! The aircraft
should just roll around the axis like it had a rod through it. This sounds
easy, but at first you'll be bobbing all over the place, applying too much
of one control or the other and loosing all kinds of altitude and heading.
Eventually it will come to you and feel real nice. Next crosswind landing
just apply the same principles and fly nice and gentle down the glide slope
carrying the same slip as i the Dutch roll, you'll have the feel and it
will seem much more natural than if your only experience were in the
crosswind landing itself. It worked for me, I was quite amazed.
Hope it helps.
Tim Kramer
N3040 C-177A
Richard Brian Stewart
Hi,
Admittedly I'm not a high time pilot (80hrs) but I was taught
in the mighty C150 to crab on fnals, then switch to wing low
on short finals. This works well, as crabbing is easy, but means you
need to straighten up before touchdown. You can drift even in the
flare and the 150 doesn't like landing moving sideways. The wing down, slipping
method was more complicated, but it meant you were aligned with
the centerline, and accounting for drift at the same time. There's no
problem (AFAIK) touching down on one wheel first (as long as it's not the
nosewheel!!)
Well that's how I was taught anyway. Admittedly I dont get to fly, let alone
practice crosswind landings. (Flying is heaps expensive for a broke
uni student)
Anyway, Bye.
Richard S, Auckland U, New Zealand
Philip D. Truner
>As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
>a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
>last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
>However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
>upwind wing then straightening out in the flare. Can anyone tell me what
>the advantages are of one over another? Thanks
The winglow method (one wing down with opposite rudder) is easier to learn
because you can fly that configuration all the way down into the flare. The
plane is all ready to land with the fuselage lined up with the runway. The
reason that it's easier to fly is that the crabbing method requires a last
minute kick of the rudder during the transition to the flare to get the
fuselage lined up with the runway. And, that rudder occurs at a tricky
phase of flight.
Your passengers will like the crab better because of the coordinated
flight. The winglow will put your passengers on their ears.
The C-172 is fairly immune to sideloading the landing gear, so if in the
crab you don't get the fuselage totally lined up, nothing much is going to
happen. However, I fly a Piper Lance (a precursor to the Saratoga), which
is a fairly heavy single retract, and to sideload the landing gear could
result in some fairly expensive repair bills.
I'd learn both techniques. The winglow is something that should provide
an ugly, but reliable crosswind technique. The crab give a more
"professional" feel to the landing, but requires more coordination.
--
Phil Turner ph...@procomp.COM
Columbus, OH ...!uunet!procomp!phil
I doubt, therefore I might be.
andy
: Actually what you have is an absence of a crosswind technique. What you
: do will work only for tricycle gear and in relatively light crosswinds.
: A tail dragger would not be tolerant of that technique and many low wing
: trikes can also be damaged in strong crosswinds if you keep doing what you're
: doing.
: Straightening out at the last minute doesn't prevent you from touching down
: drifting side ways unless you use the cross control. (I've heard that large
: aircraft such as airliners use the technique that you descrbe but they have
: more inertia to overcome before the drift starts.) The crab just kept you lined
: up with the center line during your approach. If you the straighten out
: without the use of cross controls you will start to drift down wind of the
: centerline. You're getting away with it because you probably have not flown
: in strong crosswinds and you using a C-172. I dare you to find documentation
: that suggests a type of crosswind technique that doesn't use cross control
: someplace in the approach. The arguments usually concern where the cross
: control starts.
One of my instructors would have and I do disagree with you. There is no
sideways drift on touchdown when the crab is properly used as the final
kick off of crab produces a skid which counteracts the crosswind.
With regard to your dare to find documentation the most popular series of
flight training manuals in the UK, 'Flight briefing for Pilots' by Alan
Bramson, describes both techniques, and agrees with me and my instructor.
Regards
Andy
--
!/A <-- oo <>< an...@pteron.demon.co.uk
_____________________________________________________________________________
John Freas
donovan...@tek.com (Donovan Hammer) offers very good advice to a student
who is having trouble with crosswind landings:
Do> Actually what you have is an absence of a crosswind technique. What
Do> you do will work only for tricycle gear and in relatively light
Do> crosswinds. A tail dragger would not be tolerant of that technique and
Do> many low wing trikes can also be damaged in strong crosswinds if you
Do> keep doing what you're doing.
Do> Straightening out at the last minute doesn't prevent you from touching
Do> down drifting side ways unless you use the cross control...
Do> Get used to using cross controls farther out on the final...
I would just like to add that you must not give up what your crosswind
inputs after the wheel (yes singular) touches. In fact, your control deflect-
ion must increase as the airplane slows, so as to keep counteracting the
effect of the wind. What you are trying to do is keep the nose aligned with
the centerline of the runway by using the rudder, and use aileron to bank
into the wind to stop lateral drift. Note, you CANNOT land flat with these
corrections, and you should not try to. Your upwind main wheel will touch
first, with the nose high. Keep the other wheels off the ground by
increasing aileron and elevator inputs as the airplane slows. What you want
is to maintain a bank angle that will stop your drift /on the ground/, and
keep the nose high as you would in any good landing. As the airspeed
decreases, your ailerons will eventually reach the stops and the airplane
will settle onto the other main wheel, then as speed decreases further the
nose (or tail if so equipped) will set down.
Do not fear for the landing gear. The wings are still supporting most of the
weight of the airplane, and so no excessive weight is being carried by that
one wheel. In fact this is much better than the loads imposed by side loading
the gear by letting the plane drift in the wind. By the time the wings are
no longer supporting the load, the other wheel will have come down.
You will note that after all wheels have touched down, your controls are
automatically positioned for crosswind taxi. Keep them there, and adjust
them as you taxi. Practice on a day with a light crosswind and make a game
of it. "How long can I keep that wing up..."
Good flying!
... /PULL/ to land? Are you SURE?!
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| # #### #### Internet: john....@mgmtsys.com | Daytona Beach FL (44J)
| # # # === === === === === === === === === === === ===
| #### # #### Fidonet.: John Freas 1:363/275 | CFII-ME >>---> N3956X
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Jim Hanrahan
>I would just like to add that you must not give up what your crosswind
>inputs after the wheel (yes singular) touches.
> <...one main, then the other main, then the nose wheel touches down ... >
>You will note that after all wheels have touched down, your controls are
>automatically positioned for crosswind taxi. Keep them there, and adjust
>them as you taxi. Practice on a day with a light crosswind and make a game
>of it. "How long can I keep that wing up..."
A good crosswind landing (as described above) is very satisfying. And I have
been known to emerge from the cockpit on windy days with a big smile!
Matthew Blake
Ron Natalie
supposed to land a tricycle gear aircraft. It's just more important that
you do it right. Either approach (slip or crab) will work and you need
to end up with the same slip at the end (nose aligned with the centerline, no
sideways drift, upwind wheel first) type landing. Don't forget your rudder
and ailerons on roll out too!
-Ron
Richard Bechtel
Yes, but what do you do in gusty conditions when it is likely that the time
in the flare might be increased do to a gust. The cross controlled technique is the only way to go here.
['`
George Norris
X-wind landing made me rethink the development of
my own technique (and with only 120 hours, it hasn't
been that long!). What was described was a forward
slip to landing which left in a substantial amount of crab
and then led to an unstabilized approach.
So here's my own 0.02$ worth...
I was taught the slip method for x-winds. There was
only one problem, simutaneously achieveing the right
amount of bank to overcome the X-wind and keeping
the nose right down the runway without turning. This
is a soluable problem (two unknowns: amount of rudder
and aileron versus two constraints: yaw towards the
runway and side velocity to cancel the x-wind) unless
the x-wind exceeds the amount of rudder available (on
most airplanes the rudder seems to run out of authority
prior to achieving a bank angle which will grind off the
tip of the upwind wing and lead to zero altitude
aerobatics).
Of course in practice, you're also trying to maintain glide
slope, airspeed, looking for traffic and obstructions and
the like ... a lot harder than theory! For what it's worth
here is my current solution:
1) turn onto final with at least 1/4 mile before the threshold
(Fly above the G/S if making the runway is in question or
you prefer a "power off" approach)
2) let the airplane fly into a crab which neutralizes the
X-wind (this lets you estimate the initial amount of
correction needed and if extreme pick another runway!)
This also allows you to stabilize your approach prior to
application of any corrections.
3) rudder the airplane to line up with the runway and ...
4) then apply enough aileron to prevent drift.
5) fly the rudder into the flare and correct any drift with
aileron
This seems like the standard technique, only broken down
into simpler steps. What I found is that I don't have to
apply a correction while still trying to figure out how much
to make (causing pilot induced yaw oscillations) and I can
make the rudder corrections "automatic" (left side of the
brain) while concentrating on drift, airspeed, etc (right side
of brain). This proved much easier than trying to apply all
of the corrections at once: rudder / aileron / and elevator+
throttle. The latter was significant in that while trying to
find the perfect two axis solution to yaw and roll, the
increased drag in the foward slip required nose down trim to
prevent airspeed decay. With limited experience and variable
x-winds, simultaneous corrections became a real chore!
Breaking it down to managable steps made it a lot easier
to accomplish good (i.e. safe) landings while developing
additional experience. This was more obvious after a
long x-country when the PIC is somewhat tired and may
not perform up to a level normally seen during touch
and go practice.
With additional experience, this sequential version of the
standard method becomes faster and more instinctive and
probably can't be distinguished from the classic "do it all
at once" implied from most training curricula.
================================================
George Norris PP-ASEL Archer II N8765C X=my opinion
Motorola SPS, Phoenix AZ Y=Motorola's
email: rxz...@email.sps.mot.com Note that X <> Y
Donovan Hammer;685-2499;60-850;;sptekwv1
>> in strong crosswinds and you using a C-172. I dare you to find documentation
>> that suggests a type of crosswind technique that doesn't use cross control
>> someplace in the approach. The arguments usually concern where the cross
>> control starts.
>
>
> One of my instructors would have and I do disagree with you. There is no
> sideways drift on touchdown when the crab is properly used as the final
> kick off of crab produces a skid which counteracts the crosswind.
>
> With regard to your dare to find documentation the most popular series of
> flight training manuals in the UK, 'Flight briefing for Pilots' by Alan
> Bramson, describes both techniques, and agrees with me and my instructor.
>
> Regards
> Andy
If you are kicking the aircraft out of the crab with the rudder only (without
corresponding aileron) you are in essence in cross control in that the result would
be a slip. However you are relying too much on the timing of the touch down at
the exact moment of induced slip. The slip is rather transitory with this method
in that you would eventually have to stop the yaw to remain straight with the
runway. Also in a strong crosswind it is my guess that you would not set up
enough slip - afterall you don't have your wing pulling you into the direction of
the wind. Either way you would not know until the last moment that you don't
have enough yaw to prevent the drift in a strong crosswind.
I guess I would like to know if your instructor has ever flown a short coupled
taildragger in a strong crosswind (i.e. 15 knots of direct Xwind component),
*and* onto a paved runway. Where I fly we have gotten quit used to strong xwind
situations and a weakness in xwind technique shows up very easily. We have
no crosswind runway to use (actually it's being used by a glider operation and not
available for power use) and we frequently will have high winds 90 degrees to the
runway when any pacific storm blows up. Furthermore, of all the responses (at least
from the USA) to this thread, yours has been the only one not to support a cross control
landing technique for crosswind. My guess is after a few years of flying you may come
to accept the cross control landing. Most people avoid this technique because they
find harder to do. However, since it is harder to do, why do you think it's still
pushed so strongly by so many?
Ian Urquhart
Air NZ Fokker F-27 I experienced a "classic" cross-wind landing. There was a
howling and blustery westerly blowing; very typical for that place in
winter. They keep the door to the cockpit open during landing and
takeoff because it gives access to the emergency exits so I make a point
of getting a seat where I can see what's going on. We broke out of the
clouds on about a 5 mile final, there's only an NDB approach I believe.
Anyway, we were headed about 20 degrees to the left, crabbing into the
wind. On short final, we went wing low and he kept it straight down the
runway and squeaked it onto the upwind wheel. Those long spindly legs
couldn't take much lateral force at all. The downwind wheel slowly came
down and then the nose. A very nice job indeed in really cruddy
conditions. Funny how non-pilots think these guys have botched the
landing if they land on one wheel first. It's >usually< because of good
cross-wind technique!
Kevin R. Kirtley (SVER)
>So what do you do in a tail-dragger, crab or slip or ???
>
Kevin 'Pacer driver' Kirtley
SWPL
Julian Scarfe
to Andy's support for the crab-followed-by-flat-turn technique:
> I guess I would like to know if your instructor has ever flown a short
> coupled taildragger in a strong crosswind (i.e. 15 knots of direct Xwind
> component), *and* onto a paved runway. Where I fly we have gotten quit
> used to strong xwind situations and a weakness in xwind technique shows
> up very easily. We have no crosswind runway to use (actually it's being
> used by a glider operation and not available for power use) and we
> frequently will have high winds 90 degrees to the runway when any
> pacific storm blows up. Furthermore, of all the responses (at least
> from the USA) to this thread, yours has been the only one not to support
> a cross control landing technique for crosswind. My guess is after a few
> years of flying you may come to accept the cross control landing. Most
> people avoid this technique because they find harder to do. However,
> since it is harder to do, why do you think it's still pushed so strongly
> by so many?
This is the first time I remember seeing such a difference in piloting
technique come across as a US vs UK (possible vs Europe) issue, but it
certainly is that.
Most UK instructors teach the crab technique (that includes the RAF). I'm
not sure why. It may be a reflection on the high number of stall/spin
accidents on final approach which the authorities think could be avoided
by encouraging balanced flight (?). It surely *is* a cross-control
technique, though, as the final kick of the rudder needs opposite aileron
to prevent a roll.
We're certainly no strangers to crosswinds in this country. I've seen a
couple of trip reports from UK pilots who have come back from the US with
the impression that on windy days they were the only people flying! We
get strong winds from Atlantic lows and relatively few airports have more
than one runway. Coming back from Europe (oops, I mean continental Europe
;-) to SE England with a strong NW'ly flow can be exciting (all runways
seem to point W or SW).
I've always used the crab technique, and I've never had problems with it,
though I must confess that I've never been very confident with
crosswinds. I've seen enough endorsements of the wing-down technique to
want to go out and try it (it was never taught to me). I'll report back
on whether English air really *is* hostile to the sideslip ;-)
Julian Scarfe
ja...@cus.cam.ac.uk
Ron Natalie
it's probably easier on the hardware than a low-time pilot trying
to do something fancy and rolling the a/c up into a ball.
Would be better to teach a low-time pilot to put the thing straight
with the rudder. It's not hard to teach this. As a matter of fact
it seems that if the student has a hard time, just have them get into
the slip earlier. Control is never in doubt if the nose is pointed
down the runway and the ground track is down the centerline even if
it has to start 300 feet off the ground.
Actually, quite a good presentation is made by John King in their Take
Off and Landing tape (was one of the freebees I got with their insturment
course).
While Ercoupes are designed to be landed your way, and probably the
gear on the 172 can tolerate it (though perhaps with some abnormal
tire problems), I'd be loathe to see some one land a retract this
way.
-Ron
Alex France
>This is the first time I remember seeing such a difference in piloting
>technique come across as a US vs UK (possible vs Europe) issue, but it
>certainly is that.
As might be expected, I'm another 'crabber', being from this side of
the Pond. I will admit to being not totally happy with crosswind
landings since I have had a couple of cases where windshear effects
caught me as I kicked in the rudder, causing alarming wing dips. One
was recovered OK, the other became a go-around.
On the plus side for crabbing though, we consistantly find we can land
our AA5 well in excess of the book value for its crosswind limit. I
have always assumed this to be because the crosswind limit was set by
doing 'wing down' landings and the AA5 tends not to have great rudder
authority - thus a fairly low crosswind limit (12 mph). Comfortable
landings in excess of this can be achieved by crabbing.
Alex, AA5 G-BEZI.
Andrew Boyd
>compensating with opposite rudder a couple of times on final, but it REALLY
>FREAKED ME OUT, so I aborted the manouver and went to a crab instead
ah yes, the rudder as an optional flight control. A familiar theme
these modern days.
>(I haven't practiced this with an instructor yet, so that may be part
>of my reluctance).
I would suggest going up with your instructor, and at altitude, he
should introduce sideslips. Specifically:
1) regular sideslip. Align the aircraft's fuselage up with a prominent
road (preferably with the wind aloft from your left side) and practice
dipping the left wing, using rudder to stop the naturally resulting
turn to the left, staying lined up with the road [use this technique
on a crosswind landing. I usually convert from a crab to a slip at
about 100 or 200 agl].
2) forward slip. From the above situation, apply full right rudder
(and more left bank) so that you now use the left side of the fuselage
as an aerodynamic brake. Keep the nose down. Observe any funny
asi readings resulting from asymmetrical static port positioning.
3) slipping turn. At altitude, use lotsa left bank (say 45 degrees)
and some right rudder. The ball will drop down to the left, and
you will slip during the left turn, again increasing your frontal
area. Note the gentle rate of turn, despite the bank angle.
Rule of thumb: "top" rudder (your right foot is higher than your
left foot in the above example) results in a slip, which is "good".
"bottom" rudder (pushing on the left rudder) is "bad" as it results
in a skid, which then possible results in inverted flight.
You guys down south may have different names for the above slips,
but I doubt the aircraft would know the difference :-)
P.S. Are you already solo? I realize few instructors these days
know how to use a rudder themselves, but the canadian DOT would
probably yank my instructor rating up north here, if I started
sending students solo without having taught them sideslips.
YMMV way down south there. We're really throwbacks - we even teach
spins in ab initio training.
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
Andrew Boyd
>
>Has anyone else really stopped and taken the time to watch how much damage a
>Cessna product can actually absorb?
I know, it's awesome what abuse the cessna boing-o-matic landing gear can
absorb, despite it's spindly appearance. And those trainers aren't exactly
new, either - 6000TT and 8000TT is not uncommon. That's a lot of hard
landings.
Weird thing is when you look at the accident reports, there's always
a C-180 (taildragger) or two that's been wrecked after losing a main
gear, despite the fact that the C-180 is not exactly a common trainer.
When was the last time you heard of a C-152/172 losing a main gear?
One thing: despite it's deceptively sturdier experience, the nosewheel
on cessnas is much more delicate than the main gear. Three-point
landings are _not_ the objective :-)
>You have to give the tire manufacturers and Cessna some credit here...
>These things can take a beating...
no poop. On the subject of x-wind landings, I was actually introduced
to a novel x-wind landing technique by my students, when I started
instructing: crab all the way to the ground, and land crabbed.
People always yell at me when I mention this, and yes, this technique
does lack a certain finesse. But geez, is it ever simple. And probably
even optimal on an icy runway :-)
Admittedly, on dry pavement, the crabbed landing does result in a
rather painful screech from the tires, and some side loading on the
gear as the tired old cessna straightens itself out (isn't it nice
that the C of G is ahead of the main gear? :)
Hard as hell on the hardware, but control is never in doubt. And
it's probably easier on the hardware than a low-time pilot trying
to do something fancy and rolling the a/c up into a ball.
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
Jackie Murray
: left foot in the above example) results in a slip, which is "good".
: "bottom" rudder (pushing on the left rudder) is "bad" as it results
: in a skid, which then possible results in inverted flight.
I was with you until this...I don;t understand...what is 'right foot is
higher than your left foot' ????
Per Lindberg
for crosswind landings, over the crab technique.
There is one aspect of it which is not yet mentioned, however.
Flying with crossed controls will increase the stall speed.
So, is there any rule of thumb for how much you should add
to the airspeed on final to remain safe when slipping?
Per Lindberg (p...@front.se) ! __!__
Front Capital Systems, Box 5727, ! ____(_)______ Crabbing for the pax
11487 Stockholm Sweden. 46-86611510 ! ! ! !
andy
: I guess I would like to know if your instructor has ever flown a short coupled
: taildragger in a strong crosswind (i.e. 15 knots of direct Xwind component),
: *and* onto a paved runway. Where I fly we have gotten quit used to strong xwind
: situations and a weakness in xwind technique shows up very easily. We have
: no crosswind runway to use (actually it's being used by a glider operation and not
: available for power use) and we frequently will have high winds 90 degrees to the
: runway when any pacific storm blows up. Furthermore, of all the responses (at least
: from the USA) to this thread, yours has been the only one not to support a cross control
: landing technique for crosswind. My guess is after a few years of flying you may come
: to accept the cross control landing. Most people avoid this technique because they
: find harder to do. However, since it is harder to do, why do you think it's still
: pushed so strongly by so many?
My instructor is no longer here to answer your questions. He did though,
have 7000 hours flown mostly at weekends and was a firm believer in the
crab technique. He taught (mostly unpaid) because he loved flying rather
than to build hours for a CPL. He flew Tiger Moths, Miles Magisters and
many other tail-draggers, including a particularly short coupled Caravan.
I never saw him do anything other than a crab crosswind landing and he
usually did them perfectly, kickking off the drift a split second before
touch down.
One thing he did teach me was not to be afraid of crosswinds - I have
landed a 152 well outside its demonstrated crosswind limit with no
problems. (He was in the right hand seat at the time though!)
I see that you have assumed that I am a student pilot as I talked about
'my instructor'. Actually I am a PPL, but am still learning. I hope one
day to be able to fly as well as my instructor could. I fly both
techniques, and whilst I see the advantages of the cross control technique,
I find a perfectly executed crab landing is much more satisfying.
Why do people fly tail-draggers? They usually claim that tail-draggers are
more satisfying to fly as they tend to be more difficult and require more
skill..........
David G. Fern
>Julian Scarfe
>ja...@cus.cam.ac.uk
I use the wing-down technique exclusively, never use a crab at all, because
it is a lousy method. With a wing-down method the airplane always points
towards the runway centerline, so no "kicking the rudder" is required. I
think that the wing-down method is unsavory to some people because they
have a great deal of difficulty comprehending that an airplane can be
landed on the upwind wheel first with the yoke deflected into the wind.
Maybe these yokes make an airplane feel so much like a car that if the
airplane is flying straight ahead, then the yoke needs to be centered.
Just "point the airplane with the rudder, and control drift with the
aileron." In most cases, the sideslip that the airplane undergoes is
very minor. I fly 172's, and even in a 15 knot direct crosswind, the
amount of slip on final still has the ball less than one half diameter
off center. If a slip so severe as to get one worried about a stall spin
tragedy on final is required to maintain runway centerline, I would
say that you shouldn't be flying in wind that nasty.
David Fern PP-ASEL-IA
Jim Kerns
: >So what do you do in a tail-dragger, crab or slip or ???
In a Cessna 120 (without those stupid flap things) I typically used some
slip to control the glide path even without a crosswind. If there was a
cross wind I would slip into the wind. With no cross wind I usually
slipped with the left wing low (better view of the runway out the side
window). The trick, of course, was to make sure that the airplane was
pointed E X A C T L Y down the runway at the time you touch down.
In a 120 one also learns not to "drop" on to the runway - that early
Cessna gear (circa 1946) would really bounce!
I should also mention that in a strong cross wind, Wheel landings (not
three points) are the way to go - Get the mains on the ground while you
still have air speed / rudder control then you can use the brakes to
control things as the air speed / rudder effectiveness is reduced. The
extra speed also reduces the amount you get tossed around before
landing.
Someone commented on slips being "uncomfortable". It's just a matter of
getting used to seeing the airport out the side window as you are
leaning against the door :-) I find flaps uncomfortable - if you apply
too much - you have a problem. If you slip to hard, just ease up on the
controls and flatten out the glide path. Much more controllable.
I was under the impression that many of the "modern" aircraft are
placarded against slips when the flaps are down. Is this true? If so,
then one would have to crab.
Jib Ray
Slip.
______________________________________________________________________
Jib Ray - j...@jibray.com - Stinson N900C
Jib Ray, Inc.
Ojai, California
j...@jibray.com :
Charlie Gibbs
ke...@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (Jim Kerns) writes:
>I should also mention that in a strong cross wind, Wheel landings (not
>three points) are the way to go - Get the mains on the ground while you
>still have air speed / rudder control then you can use the brakes to
>control things as the air speed / rudder effectiveness is reduced. The
>extra speed also reduces the amount you get tossed around before
>landing.
I can go along with the greater speed at touchdown, but in a crosswind
I want to get that tailwheel planted on the ground while the rudder is
still effective. Wheel landings are fun (and my preference on a hard-
surfaced runway), but one day I had just set a 170 on its mains on a
12-foot-wide strip, and a side gust blew me completely off the runway
with the tail still in the air. It was a bit of a thrill feeding in
just enough of my diminishing elevator to keep the grass from pulling
it up onto its nose.
If the winds are getting dicey, I want all the directional control
I can get. Rudder, tailwheel, anything. Brakes might help, but not
enough. But really, God intended taildraggers to do three-pointers
on grass anyway. :-)
Charli...@mindlink.bc.ca
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.
Fernando Bastos
TK>> >FREAKED ME OUT, so I aborted the manouver and went to a crab instead
>>
TK>I don't know of anyone teaching the crab and kick out technique anymore, it
>has no advantages and several disadvantages like being darn hard on the plan
TK>I too had truble mastering the side slip method, but once I did cross wind
>landings actually become a fun challenge. A CFI buddy showed me a good
>technique to get comfortable with the side slip by practicing a manuver
>called the "Dutch Roll". Next time you're up get the airplane trimmed in
>level flight and simultaneously apply aileron and gentle opposite rudder,
>until you've got about 20 degrees of bank and the nose is level and pointed
>in the direction of flight. Gently roll out of the bank and keep rolling
>to the other direction doing the same with the rudder The rudder will
>typically
>lag the ailerons. The trick is to keep the nose from moving! The aircraft
>should just roll around the axis like it had a rod through it. This sounds
>easy, but at first you'll be bobbing all over the place, applying too much
>of one control or the other and loosing all kinds of altitude and heading.
>Eventually it will come to you and feel real nice. Next crosswind landing
>just apply the same principles and fly nice and gentle down the glide slope
>carrying the same slip as i the Dutch roll, you'll have the feel and it
>will seem much more natural than if your only experience were in the
>crosswind landing itself. It worked for me, I was quite amazed.
Here in Brazil we learn to do this "Dutch Roll" manuver even before we
learn how to land in crosswind.
Regards,
Fernando Bastos
---
þ QMPro 1.52 þ Macho does not prove Mucho.
Michael Friedman
|>
|> >As a student pilot I still have a lot to learn about crosswind landings in
|> >a C-172. Invariably, I opt for a Crab into the wind on the approach and a
|> >last second straightening out in the flare. It feels more natural for me.
|> >However, the book says to use the rudder/aileron technique, lowering the
|> >upwind wing then straightening out in the flare. Can anyone tell me what
IMHO:
I slip down final and land upwind wheel first. I have two reasons
for doing this rather than the crab technique:
1: I don't like to change the flight dynamics near the ground.
Transitioning from a crab to a slib is a dynamic situation, and
a sudden gust could easily overload the pilot or aircraft.
2: My CFI told me to set up the slip on final to "test" the
crosswind component. If you can fly straight down final in
your slip, you can land. If you can not counteract the crosswind
component with a slip on final, you will probably not be able
to land without a sideload component on your landing gear. I
own my own aircraft and care a lot about treating it well!
Good luck with your training. Landing technique is the most
difficult phase of flying to master, and the cause of great debate.
Don't let it phase you...
Mike Freidman, WB2WNx
Comm Glider
Inst Pvt ASEL
PA-28-160 N5540W
Michael Friedman
|>
|> Someone has already summed up the question pretty well, but there
|> is one more factor. A few aircraft (usually low-wing) have restrictions
|> on how long you may keep the aircraft in a slip. This is because
Oh C'mon now. What has low wing/high wing got to do with this! That
debate just died down.
Mike
Le Vey Georges 40448395
I have been following this discussion for a while and my
conclusion is that I'm likely to be a *crabber*. I have
only about 40 hours solo and never heard about "crosswind
techniques" or "wing-low" and so on (the remark done above
by ja...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Julian Scarfe) or a...@crosfield.co.uk (Alex France)
seems then to be valid at least for France too !).
So, if someone could brief me rapidly on the subject,
it would be nice (but probably not here as everyone seems
to be aware of it)
thanks to all
--
Georges Le Vey
Quentin James Cope
>
> I use the wing-down technique exclusively, never use a crab at all, because
> it is a lousy method....
> ...I think that the wing-down method is unsavory to some people because they
> have a great deal of difficulty comprehending that an airplane can be
> landed on the upwind wheel first with the yoke deflected into the wind...
>
> David Fern PP-ASEL-IA
>
I guess with only seven hours to my name, my opinions are worth slightly
less than $0.02 (!) but isn't this one of those situations where there is no
right answer? Seems to me that with all things in life you use the method
that you are most comfortable with. If wing-down works for you great, if
you find crab's good, then what the hell use it. I ain't seen much flying,
got no idea about how good my instructor is in the world rankings but I would
be surprised if he tought me the crab method because he wasn't able to
comprehend the wing dowm method fully. From my seat he seems to have this
flying thing pretty well covered.
A resonable idea executed well is better than a great idea totally
screwed up.
--
Quentin Cope
Robert O. Little
I have noticed that there is still room for finese and refinement in the
"wing low" technique. As I make a base to final turn, I can set up the slip.
Over the numbers it is necessary to remove some of the correction I am
holding. The cross-wind is usually weaker, closer to the runway.
Bob...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Little, Director | __|__ |rli...@eagle.lhup.edu
Computing Center, RLC505| --------(*)-------- |
Lock Haven University | " " |Piper Arrow II N32429
Lock Haven, PA 17745 | |"The sky's the limit!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C. Taylor Sutherland, III
So how do you keep from falling too fast in the slip? Do you use a lot of
flaps in a C-172? I have trouble keeping airspeed and the slip just causes me
to fall out of the sky. I take it it is just a slight slip, enough to keep
you in line with the runway.
--
<->C. Taylor Sutherland, III <-> You will know pain. And you will know fear.
<->tay...@hubcap.clemson.edu<-> And then you will die.
<->IRC-Nick: NIV <-> Have a pleasant flight.
<->Long live Amiga!<-----------> :-) <---------->Someone BUY Commodore!<->
Tim Rissmann
>So how do you keep from falling too fast in the slip? Do you use a lot of
>flaps in a C-172? I have trouble keeping airspeed and the slip just causes me
>to fall out of the sky. I take it it is just a slight slip, enough to keep
>you in line with the runway.
Use the least amount of flap as possible. I believe the POH reccomends this
and it makes sense...In heavy X-winds in a 150, I will come in with 0 flap.
Flaps add drag, so do slips...combining them adds lots of drag (though I'm
not sure if (drag(slip+flap) > drag(slip) + drag(flap)) ...it sure feels
that way...)
You can always use power to control your glideslope if you misjudged the
amount of slip necessary...in heavy X-winds I usually find myself playing the
power a bit since heavy X-wind usually implies gusts and mechanical turbulence
as you get near the ground...
Don't forget the ongoing argument about 172's being placarded against slips
with full flap.
Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
Your mileage may vary,
Tim
Dave Pearson
>In <1994Aug15.1...@emr1.emr.ca>, tris...@emr1.emr.ca (Tim Rissmann) writes:
>>In article <32o4e6$q...@hubcap.clemson.edu> tay...@gamma.phys.clemson.edu (C. Taylor Sutherland, III) writes:
>>
>>Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
>>
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think this is oversimplified. Yes, the pitot tube is no longer aligned with
the ram air flow, which would result in a lower ram air pressure.
However, the static port is also not necessarily seeing true static
pressure either. Example: A Cessna 152 has a single static port
on the left side of the fuselage which would see higher than normal
pressure in a left slip (contributes to a low airspeed reading), and lower than
normal pressure in a right slip (contributes to a high airspeed reading).
Not sure of the relative importance of the two (pitot and static) errors.
The airspeed correction tables I've seen (in various POHs) only
consider straight & level (or at least coordinated!) flight, so I'm
not sure where to go for more info on this.
--
David A. Pearson, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA.
Email: da...@greed.jpl.nasa.gov
Ame...@provence.torolab.ibm.com
>
>Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
>
Yes, but incorrectly low. You tend to compensate by trying to keep the
IAS at the recommended approach speed -- and hence carry some extra TAS.
Not a bad thing on a gusty day -- unless you're trying to set her down
on a very short runway. Ideally you want to have the needle "painted" on
the correct speeds at all times -- I don't know about you, but I'm not good
enough to do that on a gusty day with a firm crosswind component.
Regards, | "...Then anyone who leaves behind him a written manual, and
Ian R. Ameline | likewise anyone who receives it, in the belief that such
(speaking for | writing will be clear and certain, must be exceedingly
myself, not IBM) | simple-minded..." Plato, _Phaedrus_
Roy Smith
> Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
Would you do better switching to the alternate static port in a slip? How
does the speed error of a slip-exposed or slip-hidden external static port
compare with that of the internal port, which I assume is immune to
slip-induced errors?
--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Javier Henderson
> tris...@emr1.emr.ca (Tim Rissmann) wrote:
>> Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
>
> Would you do better switching to the alternate static port in a slip? How
> does the speed error of a slip-exposed or slip-hidden external static port
> compare with that of the internal port, which I assume is immune to
> slip-induced errors?
Hm... the error is because the pitot tube is no longer aligned with the path of
the aircraft, right?
I don't see how switching to the alternate static source would help.
Plus, some planes don't have one (until you break the VSI glass, that is :)
--
Javier Henderson (JH21)
hend...@mln.com
Chris Durrant
>>
>
>The airspeed correction tables I've seen (in various POHs) only
>consider straight & level (or at least coordinated!) flight, so I'm
>not sure where to go for more info on this.
Depending on the aircraft the ASI may over-read, under-read or be accurate in the slip.
In the absence of anything in the ops manual the usual suggestion is to practice
slips in both directions at a pre-determined airspeed. Next, uncross controls to fly
straight ahead and quickly note any airspeed change. You should quickly arrive at an
indicated slip speed which is correct for your aircraft. In my experience with students
slipping in a Tiger Moth there is a great temptation to push the nose down too far
and gain excessive speed thereby defeating part of the object. Incidentally the ASI in
the Tiger Moth is accurate in the slip.
Chris D
Ron Natalie
does the speed error of a slip-exposed or slip-hidden external static port
compare with that of the internal port, which I assume is immune to
slip-induced errors?
Of course, the internal static port induces errors of it's own. Some planes
(like the Arrow I fly) actually has static ports on both sides of the plane
(in addition to the one inside).
In practical experience with a 172, if you are flying the proper approach
speed INDICATED, the slip induces errors are not going to be significant.
From talking to my instructor, it seems a much more common mistake people
make is to allow the speed to build up too much either during the slip
or during recovery to the normal attitude.
-Ron
Andrew W. Tron
Actually, most of the error in the indicated airspeed while in a slip is
due to the static ports measuring the static pressure incorrectly. The
effect of the pitot error is minor in comparison. This is because in a
slip, the pressure that a single static port senses is roughly:
ps + Q*sin(beta)
where ps is the static pressure, Q is the dynamic pressure (i.e. 1/2 *
air density * true airspeed^2) and beta is the sideslip angle (defined
so that a positive beta means that the port is on the windward side).
Normally the static port should read ps, so the error due to the static
port misalignment is about Q*sin(beta). In that same slip, the pitot
tube senses a pressure that is roughly:
ps + Q*cos(beta)
whereas it normally senses a pressure of ps + Q. The error due to the
pitot tube misalignment is therefore roughly Q*(cos(beta)-1). Since the
sideslip angle beta tends to be rather small unless you're doing some
severe aerobatics, Q*sin(beta) [the static port error] is much greater
than Q*(cos(beta)-1) [the pitot tube error].
Now if the aircraft has static ports on either side of the fuselage then
the errors of the two static ports should roughly cancel and the effect
of the sideslip on the indicated airspeed should be negligible.
As far as Roy's suggestion about using the alternate static source,
it would only eliminate the sideslip error if the use of the alternate
static source 'locked out' the external static source. Otherwise the
alternate static pressure would just be averaged in with the pressures
sensed at the external source(s). I don't know whether on not the
alternate static source mechanism has the lockout feature. And if the
alternate static source locked out the external source, I believe that
the alternate static source tends to measure a lower pressure than
normal, which means that you'll be indicating a higher airspeed than
normal. In this case you'd want to fly the approach to landing at a
higher indicated airspeed (unless I misremembered the effect of the
alternate static source).
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Tron at Princeton University | awt...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
And of the living ... none, not one who truly loves the sky
Would trade a hundred earth bound hours for one that he could fly.
Ame...@provence.torolab.ibm.com
>tris...@emr1.emr.ca (Tim Rissmann) wrote:
>> Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
>
>Would you do better switching to the alternate static port in a slip? How
>does the speed error of a slip-exposed or slip-hidden external static port
>compare with that of the internal port, which I assume is immune to
>slip-induced errors?
There is also the question of the angle of the airflow relative to the pitot.
This is exacerbated by the static port being on the side you're slipping
towards. As you pointed out, in an aircraft equipped with selectable static
ports, you can eliminate part of the error.
Laurence G. Grimm
AT-10s. He was taught the crab technique. When he took up flying
again 25 years later in a C-172, his instructor told him to use
the wing down method. He protested but was told that "with these
little planes, use the wing down approach." It seems to me that
most people nowadays are using the wing down method. I wonder if
the type of plane determines the method or if it just that instructors
have changed their recommendations over the past 50 years.
I understand that some instructors today still teach the crab
technique. I am being taught the wing down method. But, personally,
I find it easier to stay on the center line using the crab. However,
when you come out of the crab, even if it is 10 feet above the ground,
you will still drift unless you put that wing down. Does anyone know
what the Big Jet pilots do?
Scott Turner
: I use the wing-down technique exclusively, never use a crab at all, because
: it is a lousy method. With a wing-down method the airplane always points
: towards the runway centerline, so no "kicking the rudder" is required. I
: think that the wing-down method is unsavory to some people because they
: have a great deal of difficulty comprehending that an airplane can be
: landed on the upwind wheel first with the yoke deflected into the wind.
Lousy method? Excuse me? David, the sentences following your dismissal
of a method used by a large number of accomplished pilots shows me that
you really don't understand the crab approach as flown in light aircraft
at all. A properly flown crab approach will terminate in exactly the
same manner as a slip. That is, to a landing on the upwind main. It
has to.
The maneuver involves more than just "kicking the rudder" and should be,
in fact, a nicely coordinated set of rudder, aileron and elevator
inputs, transitioning into a wing-low configuration with the nose
pointing down the runway as you round out and flare. Certainly not a
maneuver for someone who thinks of the yoke as a steering wheel in a car
as you later conjecture, but rather a maneuver for a pilot who has a
solid understanding of how to use all three control axes together in a
smooth and coordinated manner.
When I first began to fly, I was taught to slip and told about the crab.
As I gained experience and was more comfortable fully controlling the
airplane, particularly in the final moments before touchdown, I began to
see the value of the crab approach. It can provide a much more
stabilized approach in gusty xwinds (more the norm were I fly), and it
makes you think about a transition near the runway that you're probably
going to need to make anyway. What's that? Well, chances are as you
approach the threshold the amount and direction of xwind will change close
to the ground anyway.
The transition can be difficult for some to learn to do *well*, and I
wouldn't recommend it to a newer pilot struggling with landings. When
done properly it allows for graceful controlled landings in even the
gustiest xwinds, and I strongly prefer it for most conditions. For
the beginner, I think the slip is easier to learn simply because it
allows the pilot to wrap his/her mind around the slip first, get it
stabilized, then later concentrate on the roundout and flare while
basically holding the slip.
: Maybe these yokes make an airplane feel so much like a car that if the
: airplane is flying straight ahead, then the yoke needs to be centered.
Both methods are reasonable and valid under certain circumstances. Both
can, when well flown, result in smooth controlled xwind landings. Let's
not be so quick to denigrate the method you don't use. Especially when
you don't fully understand the technique involved and the valid reasons
for using it.
Scott Turner KG0MR sc...@hpisla.LVLD.HP.COM
Turbo Arrow N2134N "Baby"
Scott Turner
: 1: I don't like to change the flight dynamics near the ground.
: Transitioning from a crab to a slib is a dynamic situation, and
: a sudden gust could easily overload the pilot or aircraft.
Sudden gusts on short final are going to require an alert pilot whether
slipping or transitioning to a slip. When comfortable with the
maneuver, I don't think either is intrinsically harder than the other
when a gust hits just before touchdown.
The worst "sideways" landing I ever did was in a 172 early in my flying
career. I was using the slip technique, got caught by a gust on short
final, and didn't compensate appropriately. I say this not to try to
demonstrate that slips are worse than crab and transition, but to show
that, for the inexperienced pilot, gusty xwind landings are tricky
business regardless of method used.
: 2: My CFI told me to set up the slip on final to "test" the
: crosswind component. If you can fly straight down final in
: your slip, you can land. If you can not counteract the crosswind
: component with a slip on final, you will probably not be able
: to land without a sideload component on your landing gear. I
: own my own aircraft and care a lot about treating it well!
Owning and flying an Arrow I'd imagine my concern for sideloading
the gear is just as great as yours. Retracts in general are not going
to be as tolerant of side loading as most fixed gear craft yet...
It doesn't take long to figure out how much crab is more than your
plane is going to be able to handle. If in doubt, I can always bring
the nose around with rudder to experiment and then go back to the crab
to accomplish the same "test".
: Good luck with your training. Landing technique is the most
: difficult phase of flying to master, and the cause of great debate.
: Don't let it phase you...
Indeed. And for learning, I think the slip has much to recommend it.
Michael Friedman
|>
|> So how do you keep from falling too fast in the slip? Do you use a lot of
|> flaps in a C-172? I have trouble keeping airspeed and the slip just causes me
|> to fall out of the sky. I take it it is just a slight slip, enough to keep
|> you in line with the runway.
We really shouldn't use the term "falling", it makes the passengers
nervous!-)
You only use enough rudder to align the plane with the runway and
then control your course with the ailerons as usual. If the
crosswind is high, you should use no or little flap. A little extra
power keeps the glideslope on track, and a little extra speed
(1/2 the gust factor) keeps you safe(r) with regards to stalls and
spins. It takes a bit of practice, but it's a great feeling to land
straight down the runway, one wheel at a time, in a crosswind
while the less brave/educated/practiced soals watch from the
ramp.
Mike
****************************************************************************
** Mike Friedman, WB2WNX AOPA, EAA, SSA **
** Commercial Glider **
** Instrument Pvt ASEL **
** PA-28-160 N5540W "The Hershey Warrior" **
****************************************************************************
Jaap Berkhout
planes. Reason gives is "due to the increased drag and the resulting steeper
glideslope the wing-down method is not recommended." As I am a beginning
student pilot, I will conform to my instructor and the aviation authority...
John Stephens
I am not going to argue with your decision, but remember that
anytime you get several people together, you have more than one
"authority". Whenever you get a government bureau into the act,
then you have "authority backed by ineptitude and/or incompetence."
Government departments tend to protect their past
(mis-)statements. No different in the NL than it is in the US, I
imagine. :-) :-)o
I guess there aren't too many tailwheel aircraft in the NL, either
that, or their pilots don't automatically bow to the "aviation authority." Kind of hard to handle a taildragger in a crosswind without using the
wing-down method during the flare and initial rollout. Also, has
the NL aviation authority never heard of slips? Sttep glidelopes
are to be preferred in most instances!
Andrew Boyd
>>Don't forget that your airspeed reads incorrectly while slipping...
>
>Yes, but incorrectly low.
heh heh. Land often with a crosswind from the right? ie sideslipping
with the right wing low?
In my experience with C-172s (static port only on the left side) I see a
5 MPH asi decrease in a slip to the left, and 5 MPH _increase_ in a slip
to the right.
ymmv someday if you fly one of the many, many a/c out there with more
than one static port (or a more centrally located one).
Memorization is nice, but being able to figure it out from from basic
principles is nice too, eh?
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
Roger Thomas
You are quite right to conform with what your instructor tells you, but I'm
left wondering if any of the "officials" responsible for the statement
have EVER tried to land a tailwheel aeroplane in a crosswind.... :-)
******************************
Roger Thomas (Mr) fax +61-79-309382
Mech.Eng.Dept., C.Q.U. 'phone +61-79-309545
Rockhampton Qld. 4702, AUSTRALIA Tho...@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Lee Marzke
Michael Friedman <mi...@ctron.com> wrote:
>tay...@gamma.phys.clemson.edu (C. Taylor Sutherland, III) writes:
>|>
>|> So how do you keep from falling too fast in the slip? Do you use a lot of
>|> flaps in a C-172? I have trouble keeping airspeed and the slip just causes me
>|> to fall out of the sky. I take it it is just a slight slip, enough to keep
>|> you in line with the runway.
>
>We really shouldn't use the term "falling", it makes the passengers
>nervous!-)
>
>You only use enough rudder to align the plane with the runway and
>then control your course with the ailerons as usual. If the
>crosswind is high, you should use no or little flap. A little extra
>power keeps the glideslope on track, and a little extra speed
>(1/2 the gust factor) keeps you safe(r) with regards to stalls and
>spins. It takes a bit of practice, but it's a great feeling to land
>straight down the runway, one wheel at a time, in a crosswind
>while the less brave/educated/practiced soals watch from the
>ramp.
>
After all these years flying I never really gave much though to it.
Airplanes were landed in a slip and gliders in a crab ( because of the
generally longer wings and low C.G.)
But I am also one to do wheel landings when the x/w picks up and this seems
to be in the minority of taildragger pilots. Who else prefers wheel
landings ?
- Lee Marzke CFI SEL/G
- MIT Soaring Association, Stirling Mass USA, lma...@mv.mv.com
- Kollsman Avionics, Merrimack, NH lma...@kollsman.com
--
- I hope I pass away quietly in my sleep like my grandfather, not
- screaming in horror like his passengers.
- Lee Marzke lma...@mv.mv.com
Michael Friedman
|> I understand that some instructors today still teach the crab
|> technique. I am being taught the wing down method. But, personally,
|> I find it easier to stay on the center line using the crab. However,
|> when you come out of the crab, even if it is 10 feet above the ground,
|> you will still drift unless you put that wing down. Does anyone know
|> what the Big Jet pilots do?
|>
I have watched the big jets land at my home airport (MHT) and they
definately land wing down. It is fun watching a DC-9 or 727 plant it
on one wheel and hold it there as the speed scrubs off.
Some planes are designed to land in a crab. Two which come to mind
are very different from one another - the Aircoupe and the B-52.
The Aircoupe simply has very strong landing gear designed to
absorb sideloads. This is good because most aircoupes don't
have seperate rudder control and cannot be slipped! The B-52
has a rotatable undercarriage which is automatically crabbed
oppisite the aircraft so it can be landed wings level in a crosswind
with the wheels facing forward. This was done because the B-52 wings
droop very close to the runway and would hit the ground if not
level.