Sad To Say Flight 93 Brought Down
Kevin Keogh
of white smoke before Flight 93 went down. We haven't been allowed to hear
this tape or even learn the name of the dispatcher who took the call. But we
have been treated to every minute detail of every other cell phone call from
the plane, I assume with the blessings of those conducting this "criminal
investigation."
Various witnesses report unmarked military planes circling the scene of the
accident. FAA employees report F-16's following the plane before the
accident. The DOD now admits that the military was monitoring the plane and
"was in a position to intercept it." More witnesses to the crash variously
report a "sonic boom," a loud bang and a noise the "sounded like thunder"
BEFORE the plane hit the ground. Other witnesses report seeing parts falling
off the plane into Indian Lake (3 miles away from the "crash site"), into
their yards, and onto their homes. Note that this is east of the crash site
and the official word is the plane was going in an "easterly" direction when
it crashed.
We have a significant percentage of debris up to 8 miles from the crash
site. We have what appears to be at least three distinct fields as well as a
swath of debris spread out over perhaps 25 or more square miles. We have the
plane's large engines found "at a considerable distance from the crash
site." We have a crater that is too small and shallow to account for the
crash of an entire 757.
We have an investigation more concerned with securing the crash site than
with finding the black boxes. We get this sort of answer from deputy Defense
Secretary Paul Wolfowitz when told that the FBI has not yet ruled out that
Flight 93 was shot down, "I have no information on it at all. In fact,
that's the first I heard, and I'm going to look into it." A few hours later,
FBI lead investigator Bill Crowley flatly denies the same military
involvement that he said he couldn't rule out earlier in the day.
We know the Greater Pitt air traffic tower was ordered cleared immediately
before the crash. We know that every other radar tower in a position to
track these planes was ordered to be cleared by the FAA. We know air traffic
controllers warned pilots in the vicinity to "get as far away from that
plane as we could as fast as we could." We know several Congressmen
discussed getting authorization to shoot down the plane.
But I suppose we should thank God that all those brave passengers figured
out how to explode their plane exactly when they did to miraculously save a
reluctant Air Force pilot from having to execute his gruesome orders. Now
that's a movie plot that packs a wallop!
stickdog
From: http://www.wtaetv.com/pit/news/stories/news-96165420010915-120945.html
(September 15th)
The FBI said that a civilian business jet flying to Johnstown was within 20
miles of the low-flying airliner, but at an altitude of 37,000 feet.
That plane was asked to descend to 5,000 feet -- an unusual maneuver -- to
help locate the crash site for responding emergency crews. The FBI said
that is probably why some witnesses say they saw another plane in the sky
shortly after Flight 93 crashed at 10:10 a.m. Tuesday in a grassy field near
Shanksville, about 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.
The FBI said there was also a C-130 military cargo aircraft about 17 miles
away that saw smoke or dust near the crash site, but that plane wasn't armed
and had no role in the crash. That plane was flying at 24,000 feet."
From:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010915/us/attacks_plane_crash_10.html
(September 15th)
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said that the military had been
monitoring the plane and was in a position to intercept it.
``I think it was the heroism of the passengers on board that brought it
down, but the Air Force was in a position to do so if we had had to,'' he
said on PBS's ``NewsHour With Jim Lehrer.''
From:
http://triblive.com/news/news_story.html?rkey=170881+sid=c9bcfc4109bba9233da
c8f977ca42f63+cat=news-regional-terrorism+related_name=0914crash+exclude=1+t
emplate=news1.html
Speculation continued to swirl around reports that a military fighter jet
was seen in the vicinity immediately after the crash. According to the
Nashua (N.H.) Telegraph, FAA employees at an air-traffic control center near
Boston learned from controllers at other facilities that an F-16 "stayed in
hot pursuit" of the 757.
By 10:30 a.m. Tuesday, the Air Force had taken control of all U.S. airspace,
the unidentified controller told the Telegraph. A few minutes later, the
Boeing crashed in Stonycreek Township.
The F-16 made 360-degree turns to stay close to the 757, the Telegraph
reported. "He must've seen the whole thing," the FAA employee said of the
F-16's pilot.
Crowley confirmed that there were two other aircraft within 25 miles of the
United flight that were heading east when it crashed, scattering debris over
8 miles.
Military planes sometimes "shadow" airliners that are in trouble or have
lost radio communications, as part of efforts to re-establish contact.
An Air Force spokeswoman at North American Aerospace Defense Command in
Colorado, Capt. Adriane Craig, said the military could neither confirm nor
deny whether an airplane was following the United 757. Neither NORAD nor
the Air Force releases information about where its jets are flying at any
given time, or what their patrol routes are over metropolitan areas, Craig
said.
Testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday, President
Bush's nominee for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said fighters and
other aircraft were mobilized Tuesday in response to the hijackings. Air
Force Gen. Richard Myers emphatically denied that Flight 93 was shot down.
"The armed forces did not shoot down any aircraft," he said. "When it became
clear what the threat was, we did scramble fighter aircraft, AWACS radar
aircraft and tanker aircraft to begin to establish orbits in case other
aircraft showed up in the FAA system that were hijacked, but we never
actually had to use force."
Investigators have not ruled out the possibility that the terrorists had a
bomb on board the plane, the FBI's Crowley said. "We have no information to
lead us either way. We need them (the flight recorders) to determine if that
happened," he said.
A passenger, Mark Bingham, 31, of San Francisco, Calif., was able to call
Westmoreland County 911 and tell a communications officer that the plane had
been hijacked and the terrorists had a bomb. There was a sound of an
explosion before 911 lost contact with Bingham.
Crowley said the FBI and NTSB have not determined whether a bomb exploded
inside the aircraft before it crashed. Residents of nearby Indian Lake
reported seeing debris falling from the jetliner as it overflew the area
shortly before crashing.
State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a
pond behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris.
If necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond
may be drained, he said.
Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at
a considerable distance from the crash site."
"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.
Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that
stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase."
"If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash," he
continued. "You would look around and say, `I wonder what happened here?'
The first impression looking around you wouldn't say, `Oh, looks like a
plane crash. The debris is very, very small.
"The best I can describe it is if you've ever been to a commercial landfill.
When it's covered and you have papers flying around. You have papers blowing
around and bits and pieces of shredded metal. That's probably about the best
way to describe that scene itself."
From:
http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010913/ts/att
ack_pennsylvania_dc_4.html
Federal investigators said on Thursday that they have not ruled out the
possibility that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down over Pennsylvania,
after three other hijacked airliners crashed into the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon (news - web sites).
As speculation about what happened aboard the Boeing 757 intensified, FBI
(news - web sites) agent Bill Crowley told a news conference that it was too
early in the crash investigation to rule out any possibility. He declined to
say whether evidence actually pointed to an explosion before the San
Francisco-bound jetliner crashed 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh on
Tuesday, killing 45 passengers and crew on board.
``We have not ruled out that. We haven't ruled out anything yet,'' Crowley
said when asked about reports that a U.S. fighter jet may have fired on the
hijacked airliner to prevent it from reaching a target, possibly in
Washington.
His remark prompted deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to say he would
look into the matter. ``I have no information on it at all. In fact, that's
the first I heard, and I'm going to look into it,'' Wolfowitz, the No. 2
Pentagon official, told a briefing.
From:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010913/ts/attack_pennsylvania_dc_5.html
(12 hours after the previous report)
Flight 93, which crashed soon after three other jetliners slammed into the
World Trade Center and the Pentagon, was the only hijacked plane not to hit
a U.S. landmark. That fact has brought intense speculation about what
brought the plane down.
Earlier this week, Pentagon officials vigorously denied initial reports that
a military fighter had shot down the United Airlines jet.
At a news conference on Thursday morning, Crowley told reporters that FBI
investigators had not ruled out the possibility. But he later retracted the
statement, saying unequivocally ``there was no military involvement in what
happened here.''
The Pennsylvania state police said debris from the crash had shown up about
8 miles away near a residential area where local media quoted some residents
as seeing flaming debris from the sky. But investigators were unwilling to
say whether the presence of debris in separate places evinced an explosion.
State Police Major Lyle Szupinka said debris found in the residential area
was small enough to have been carried by air currents after impact.
From:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/PA_airplanecrash010911.html
One eyewitness to the Pennsylvania crash, Linda Shepley, told television
station KDKA in Pittsburgh that she heard a loud bang and saw the plane bank
to the side before crashing.
From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14327-2001Sep11.html
Leaders of Congress -- including Senate Majority Leader Thomas A. Daschle
(D-S.D.), Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.), House Majority Whip
Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) and House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) --
were told at a briefing by the Capitol Police that the hijacked plane might
have been bound for the Capitol or Camp David, the presidential retreat in
Thurmont, Md., 85 miles southeast of the crash site, according to
participants in the meeting.
The participants discussed the possibility of shooting down the aircraft,
said Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.). "The question I heard asked was: 'Who has the
authority to order a commercial jetliner shot down by the military?' " Pence
said. However, the congressional leaders soon learned that the plane had
already crashed.
From: http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010913flightpathreg2p2.asp
About 10 minutes later, Full's phone rang. It was Kurt Sopp, the airport
authority's security manager. Full said Sopp told him that he had been
informed by Pittsburgh International Airport's air traffic control tower
"that there was a plane within 10 miles in the Pittsburgh airspace that they
had no contact with whatsoever, and they had reason to believe it was
possibly a hijacked aircraft, and they were taking appropriate action by
moving personnel out of the control tower."
That was all Full learned of the plane. He had no idea of its altitude,
heading, speed or apparent destination. "It meant to me that it was pretty
damn close to the airport, especially when they told me the control tower
was beginning to move personnel out of the tower," Full said. "I didn't ask
for any of those particulars. I didn't even look at the clock for a time."
Full got off the phone with Sopp and alerted Pittsburgh officials. Full
alerted City Communications Chief John Rowntree. But even as Rowntree was
learning about the mysterious plane, it continued on its southeast path,
away from Allegheny County.
As the plane neared Somerset County, air traffic controllers in Cleveland
alerted their counterparts at John P. Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County
Airport that a plane was about 12 miles away, "heading directly at the
airport at about 6,000 feet," said Joe McKelvey, the airport's executive
director.
"The Johnstown tower chief told me that under the circumstances, he was
going to evacuate the tower," McKelvey said. "Before either one of us could
get off the phone, the aircraft had already passed us by."
From: http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetnat3p3.asp
Dennis Fritz, director of the municipal airport in Johnstown, Pa., said the
FAA called him several times as the plane approached his city, and even
warned him to evacuate the tower for fear the jet would plow into it.
"They said the plane was very suspicious, and they didn't know what it was
doing," Fritz said. Flight 93 crashed into a field 14 miles south of
Johnstown.
From:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/live/news/news_story.html?rkey=170399+sid=5ba3
e65848bd282a93fc29daad2950fd+cat=news-regional-terrorism+template=news1.html
Utility workers from Verizon installed additional telephone lines in the
area for investigators and police. Highway crews from the state Department
of Transportation also helped to control traffic along Lambertsville Road
for several miles leading to the sit. "We're here to guard things in the
area," said equipment operator Don Pritts. "We were out here all night. I
guess we'll stay until we're told to go home."
FBI Special Agent Bill Crowley said the recorder was found at about 4:20
p.m. in the 8-foot-deep crater caused by the crash. Crowley said the
recorder would be analyzed by the National Transportation Safety Board.
Eight miles away in New Baltimore, Melanie Hankinson said she found singed
papers and other light debris from the crash, including pages from
Hemispheres Magazine, United's in-flight magazine. Crowley said the material
could easily have been carried on the wind.
From:
http://www.triblive.com/news/news_story.html?rkey=170501+sid=8645c9c01306401
00268897f618afb1d+cat=news-regional-terrorism+related_name=+template=news1.h
tml
Meanwhile, investigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby
Indian Lake, where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying
over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes."
"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state
trooper said. Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly
over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the
plane.
From:
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/pit/news/stories/news-95791220010912-130
955.html
Finding any substantial evidence from the plane will be difficult. Any
remaining debris is very small. WTAE-TV's Paul Van Osdol also reports that
some debris has been spotted up to two miles away from the crash scene. Some
has been washing up on shore at nearby Indian Lake.
Several residents gathered debris, placed it in a plastic bag and carried it
to police. Officials do not want residents to touch any possible debris.
They should contact police, instead.
At least four witnesses who were at the crash scene within five minutes of
the crash told WTAE's Paul Van Osdol that they saw another plane in the
area. Somerset County resident Jim Brandt said that he saw another plane in
the area. He said it stayed there for one or two minutes before leaving.
Another Somerset County resident, Tom Spinello, said that he saw the plane.
He said that it had high back wings. Both men said that the plane had no
markings on it, either civilian or military. The FBI said that it does not
think that it was a military plane, but it would not rule out the
possibility of it being a civilian plane.
The plane first flew near Cleveland but quickly turned around, reportedly
flying erratically and losing altitude. One passenger who called
Westmoreland County 911 said he was inside a locked bathroom. Dispatcher
Glenn Cramer said the unidentified man repeatedly said, "We're being
hijacked!"
"He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane
and we lost contact with him," Cramer said.
FBI officials had a tape of that call in custody. They would not comment on
its contents or the speculation of a struggle on board.
Witnesses reported seeing military aircraft in the air just after the crash,
and there were rumors that Flight 93 was shot down.
As Flight 93 approached Cleveland, radar showed the plane banked left and
headed back toward southwest Pennsylvania. Cleveland Mayor Michael R. White
said air traffic controllers reported hearing screams on a plane with which
they had communicated.
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport tower chief Dennis Fritz said his tower,
located about 20 miles from the crash site, got a warning call from
Cleveland Air Traffic Control.
The Cleveland tower said the plane had done some unusual maneuvers,
including a 180-degree turn away from Cleveland, and was flying at a low
altitude.
From: http://www.wtaetv.com/pit/news/stories/news-95909320010913-100904.html
Crowley said that debris from the crash has been found in New Baltimore,
Pa., which is 8 miles away from the crash scene, and Indian Lake, which is 2
1/2 miles away from the crash scene. Crowley said that NTSB officials said
that it is probable that the debris in New Baltimore is from the crash.
The debris found in New Baltimore include paper and nylon, Crowley said. He
said that the debris found is lightweight and easily can be carried by the
wind. At the time of the crash, there was wind speed of 9 knots per hour
heading to the southeast. Both Indian Lake and New Baltimore are southeast
of the crash scene.
WTAE's Jim Parsons reported Wednesday that debris had been found miles
off-site and removed. State Police Maj. Lyle Szupinka confirmed Thursday
that debris had been discovered in the residential community of Indian Lake
northeast of the central crash site.
Jim Brant, owner of Indian Lake Marina, said he rushed outside Tuesday
morning when he heard the roar of jet engines overhead, then saw a fireball
rise into the air. The wind was strong that morning, Brant said, and within
minutes debris from the crash was "falling like confetti."
Also on Thursday, the Pennsylvania State Police arrested two photographers
for breach of security. A police officer said that two stringers from New
York City were given permission to take pictures of one portion of the crash
scene, but they went into a restricted area and immediately were arrested.
Szupinka said that anyone who took debris would be prosecuted if the
evidence is not returned. He said those people should call state police in
Somerset at 814-445-4104.
Crowley said a robotic helicopter developed by Carnegie Mellon University in
Pittsburgh had not been used to find the black box. The copter, which can
create 3-D color images of the terrain, may be used at some point in the
search, Crowley said.
From: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/penn.attack/
Investigators say they've found debris from the crash at least eight miles
away from the crash site.
A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash
scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake. More
debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the
crash.
State police and the FBI initially said they didn't want to speculate
whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up
in midair.
Investigators later said the debris was all very light material, such as
paper and thin nylon the wind would easily blow. The wind was blowing
towards Indian Lake and New Baltimore at 9 knots [10.5 mph]. "According to
the NTSB, it is not only possible that the debris is from the crash, it is
probable," Crowley said.
From: http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp
A handful of people working near or driving through a rural area of Somerset
County watched as the plane flipped over and disappeared with a smoky boom
at 10:06 a.m. yesterday, between the tiny communities of Lambertsville and
Shanksville.
"It didn't look like a plane crash because there was nothing that looked
like a plane," Barron said.
"There was one part of a seat burning up there," Phillips said. "That was
something you could recognize."
"I never seen anything like it," Barron said. "Just like a big pile of
charcoal."
"My instinct was to run toward it, to try to help" said Nina Lensbouer,
Tim's Lensbouer's wife and a former volunteer firefighter. "But I got there
and there was nothing, nothing there but charcoal. Instantly, it was
charcoal."
"The biggest pieces you could find were probably four feet [long]. Most of
the pieces you could put into a shopping bag, and there were clothes hanging
from the trees."
Later in the afternoon, state police allowed reporters to enter the crash
area. It was incongruously serene. Under a bright sun, the site where all 45
aboard the plane were killed was most remarkable for how unremarkable it
appeared.
The apparent point of impact was a dark gash, not more than 30 feet wide, at
the base of a gentle slope just before a line of trees. There were few
recognizable remnants of the plane or the passengers and crew. The trees
beyond were still faintly smoldering but largely intact. "If you would go
down there, it would look like a trash heap," said state police Capt. Frank
Monaco. "There's nothing but tiny pieces of debris. It's just littered with
small pieces."
From: http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp
The Washington Post reported that leaders of Congress -- including Senate
Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott,
R-Miss., House Majority Whip Tom DeLay, R-Texas and House Minority Leader
Dick Gephardt, D-Mo. -- were told at a briefing by the Capitol Police that
the hijacked plane might have been bound for the Capitol or Camp David, the
presidential retreat in Thurmont, Md., 85 miles southeast of the crash site,
according to participants in the meeting.
The participants discussed a possible shoot down of the aircraft, said Rep.
Mike Pence, R-Ind. "The question I heard asked was: 'Who has the authority
to order a commercial jetliner shot down by the military?' " Pence said.
However, the congressional leaders soon learned that the plane had already
crashed.
Some witnesses reported that the plane was flying upside down for a time
before the crash; others said they heard up to three loud booms before the
jetliner went down.
Authorities weren't ready yesterday to pronounce the crash a result of
terrorism. But a telling detail came minutes before the plane went down when
dispatchers at the Westmoreland County Emergency Operations Center
intercepted a frantic cell phone call made to 911 by a passenger aboard the
doomed flight.
"We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!" the man told dispatchers in
a quivering voice during a conversation that lasted about one minute.
"We got the call about 9:58 this morning from a male passenger stating that
he was locked in the bathroom of United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to
San Francisco, and they were being hijacked," said Glenn Cramer, a 911
supervisor.
"We confirmed that with him several times and we asked him to repeat what he
said. He was very distraught. He said he believeD the plane was going down.
He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the
plane, but he didn't know where.
"And then we lost contact with him."
Agents seized the 911 dispatch tape from Westmoreland County as part of
their investigation.
Dennis Fritz, the air traffic manager, got a call from controllers in
Cleveland warning the Johnstown airport -- which has no radar of its own --
that a large aircraft was 20 miles south and had suddenly turned on a
heading for Johnstown.
"It was an aircraft doing some unusual maneuvers at a low level, which is
unusual for an aircraft that size," Fritz said last night. "It happened so
quickly."
He said workers in his own tower scanned south, toward the horizon, with
binoculars, but couldn't see any aircraft, leading Fritz to believe that the
plane was flying somewhere in the 2,800 foot high ridges in that part of the
Allegheny front.
Then, somewhere within the air zone, about 15 miles south of Johnstown, the
plane turned again toward the south.
Shortly before it went down, another call was made to the Westmoreland
County 911 center from a Mount Pleasant Township resident who said he could
see a large plane flying low and banking from side to side. The impact
"sounded like dynamite," said Lucy Menear, 83, who lives less than a
half-mile from the crash site. "It seems as though everything was falling
apart."
The priority of the FBI and state troopers was to protect the scene. There
were 20 FBI agents on hand yesterday, and another 30 were expected last
night. The contingent of 100 state troopers was expected to swell to 150.
They planned to spend last night spaced out along the crash perimeter within
each other's eyesight to ward off curiosity seekers and prevent anyone from
tampering with evidence. Two curiosity seekers were arrested for trying to
get through the perimeter, one of them aboard an all-terrain vehicle.
Also on hand were officials from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Pennsylvania
Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Aviation Administration and United
Airlines. A team from the National Transportation Safety Board was en route.
Last night police and National Guard sealed off the airport to regular
traffic, at one point shutting down state Route 219 a four-lane highway that
is only 500 yards from airport property. It was later reopened, but access
roads to the airport remained sealed.
From:
http://www.triblive.com/news/news_story.html?rkey=170044+sid=0bbb71fbc961772
7ec833aa1b36956ce+cat=news-regional-gbgstory+related_name=0912crash+exclude=
4+template=news1.html
A pilot in the air Tuesday morning said air-traffic controllers warned him
to "get far away" from what he believes was the doomed Boeing 757 that
crashed in Somerset County. Bill Wright of Greensburg said he was flying a
single-engine Piper airplane over Youngwood yesterday morning when officials
at the Cleveland En Route Traffic Control in Oberlin, Ohio, ordered him to
land at Arnold Palmer Regional Airport near Latrobe.
Wright - an assistant fire chief with the Greensburg Volunteer Fire
Department - said he had taken off from Jimmy Stewart Airport in Indiana
County and had been flying over northern West Virginia when air-traffic
controllers radioed, asking him to return to the airport. "They told us to
get back to Indiana as soon as was practical," Wright said. "A few minutes
later, they said get back there right away. Then they called and told us to
put it down (at Arnold Palmer Regional) in Latrobe. They told us to get to
the closest airport."
At the end of the last transmission, he said, air-traffic controllers "asked
us if we could see another aircraft off our left wing, and we did."
When he reported visual contact with the other aircraft, Wright said, "they
told us to get as far away from that plane as we could as fast as we could."
"It just looked like a large airplane," the pilot added, noting a passenger
in his plane reported seeing the plane's wings "wave."
Wright declined to speculate on what may have caused the aircraft to wobble.
From:
http://www.triblive.com/news/news_story.html?rkey=169771+sid=bb53c043ed890de
cba22a64fd945b6cc+cat=news-regional-terrorism+related_name=0912crash+exclude
=3+template=news1.html
Just minutes before United Airlines Flight 93 crashed into a secluded
section of Somerset County, a passenger locked in a bathroom tried to call
for help on his cellular telephone. "We are being hijacked!" the passenger
told a Westmoreland County dispatcher.
The call came in to Westmoreland County's emergency dispatch center at 9:58
a.m. Within two minutes or so, the airliner carrying 38 passengers and seven
crew members slammed to earth near the village of Shanksville. Westmoreland
County 911 shift supervisor Glenn Cramer told the Tribune-Review it was a
male passenger who made the last-minute attempt to notify authorities about
the situation on board the ill-fated jetliner.
The caller told an unnamed dispatcher that he was a passenger on board
Flight 98 from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco, and barricaded himself in the
aircraft's lavatory. "He said, 'I'm locked in the bathroom and we're being
hijacked,'" Cramer said.
The caller then gave the dispatcher information that investigators may be
able to use to piece together just how the Boeing 757 crashed. "He said he
heard some type of explosion and saw some white smoke from the plane. Then
we lost contact with him," Cramer said.
The call lasted less than three minutes according to Cramer. Westmoreland
County officials refused to release the name of the dispatcher who took the
911 call.
FBI agents were in Greensburg about 90 minutes after the 911 call was
received and took possession of the only copy of audio tape detailing the
passenger's call from aboard the jetliner. Dan Stevens, spokesman for the
Westmoreland County Public Safety Department, said the Federal Aviation
Administration and the FBI were notified almost immediately about the 911
call from the doomed plane.
From:
http://www.triblive.com/news/news_story.html?rkey=169474+sid=16c9cba672d4eaf
6f418e746b07f9e11+cat=news-regional-terrorism+related_name=0912crash+exclude
=2+template=news1.html
Next door to the media staging site, Lucy Menear, an elderly woman, wearing
a red sweatshirt that identified her as one of the world's best
grandmothers, looked out at the scene and shook her head. She said she'd
never seen anything like it in the 55 years she's lived in her home at the
intersection of Lambertsville Road and Little Prairie Lane.
Menear said she was in her living room watching TV yesterday morning when
she heard what sounded like thunder and got up to see what had happened.
The various agencies worked in concert to keep passersby, reporters and
photographers at bay, while authorities worked to secure the crash site
located beyond a small ridge, just out of the reporters' range of vision.
State police spokesman Trooper Thomas Spallone said police arrested two
unidentified members of the media who attempted to sneak through a wooded
area onto the crash site. He said the reporters were handcuffed and were
being held temporarily at the command center.
FBI spokesman John Gera told anxious reporters that authorities wanted to
secure what he described as a "large crime scene" before allowing the media
beyond the initial staging area some 1,500 yards from the crash site.
As Gera spoke, state police helicopters and military aircraft hovered
overhead, patrolling the airspace above the crash site. Late yesterday
afternoon, the state Department of Environmental Protection coordinated a
bus tour that eventually took three bus loads of reporters and photographers
to the crash site.
From:
http://www.triblive.com/news/news_story.html?rkey=170055+sid=7e693a290deecbe
0352a471be13855c1+cat=news-regional-terrorism+related_name=0912crash+templat
e=news1.html
Two Somerset County men rushed to the scene of Tuesday's plane crash hoping
to help with the rescue effort. They found a scene of devastation. "You
couldn't see nothing," said Nick Tweardy, 20, of Stoneycreek Township. "We
couldn't tell what we were looking at. There's just a huge crater in the
woods."
Little remained of United Airlines Flight 93, which had departed from
Newark, N.J., at 8:42 a.m. yesterday on its way to San Francisco with 45
people aboard. It crashed in what FBI agents are calling a "terrorist act,"
likely linked to yesterday's attacks on the World Trade Center in New York
City and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.
FBI Special Agent Jeff Killeen said air traffic controllers had no
communication with the pilot of the Boeing 757 before the crash.
And he said the investigation will be slow because the impact of the plane
left "scant" evidence that will require "painstaking collection."
The largest piece of wreckage he could identify looked like a section of the
plane's tail, he said.
Bits of metal were thrown against a tree line like shrapnel, said state
police spokesman Trooper Thomas Spallone of Troop A in Greensburg.
"Once it hit, everything just disintegrated," he said. "There are just
shreds of metal. The longest piece I saw was 2 feet long."
Hours after the crash, teams of crime scene analysts from the FBI and Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, plus state police, the Pennsylvania
National Guard, and state agencies - Department of Emergency Management and
the Department of Environmental Protection - cordoned off the area within a
4-mile radius of the crash and began the painstaking task of collecting
evidence.
"We're finding more debris in various locations," Spallone said.
"Over 100 state troopers secured the area. Our job is not to let anybody in
here until the federal accident reconstruction teams from the FBI and
(Federal Aviation Administration) can get in here and examine the shreds of
evidence left," said Capt. Frank Monaco, commander of Troop A.
"All that is left is small pieces of the airplane."
Law enforcement authorities learned of the hijacking from a frightened
passenger on the airplane who called Westmoreland County 911 from a cellular
telephone. The man said he was hiding in the plane's restroom, 911 officials
said. According to a transcript of the tape, the passenger told a police
communications officer in Greensburg that the plane had been hijacked.
There was noise, and then the line went dead. FBI agent Wells Morrison said
agents confiscated the tape recording of the call.
Members of the Army National Guard make their way toward the scene where a
United Airlines flight 93 crashed in a wooded area 12 miles north of
Somerset. Authorities said there were no survivors on the 757, which
originated in Newark NJ, and went down en route to San Francisco. (Barry
Reeger/Tribune-Review)
FBI Agent Bill Crowley in Pittsburgh said the bureau has classified the
crash as a terrorist act and "not so much as a hijacking."
Larry Fransson
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> We have a crater that is too small and shallow to account for the
> crash of an entire 757.
The 737 that crashed in Pennsylvania a few years back didn't leave a
really big mark, either.
> We have an investigation more concerned with securing the crash site than
> with finding the black boxes.
They have already been found.
Kevin Keogh
"Larry Fransson" <lfra...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:lfransson-76382...@news.uswest.net...
So. That doesn't change the fact that they use 10 times as many folks to
secure the site than to search it.
Any responses to the rest of my post?
stickdog
Richard Hyde
> So. That doesn't change the fact that they use 10 times as many folks to
> secure the site than to search it.
>
> Any responses to the rest of my post?
>
> stickdog
Yes. If the flight had been taken out by our own fighters, the
government wouldn't be recommending formal honors for the passengers.
The political fallout would be too great if it turned out that our own
fighters had been involved.
As far as I can tell from deja, this is your first post to
rec.aviation.*, but you post to a number of political groups. You don't
seem to like Bush (neither do I).
It is too big of an event for a conspiracy of that nature.
a missile wouldn't have this signature: "Szupinka said most of the
remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that
stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase."
Neither does: "One eyewitness to the Pennsylvania crash, Linda Shepley,
told television
station KDKA in Pittsburgh that she heard a loud bang and saw the plane
bank
to the side before crashing". seem to me to be evidence of a missile
strike.
Good try, but I don't think so.
Rick
Richard Lamb
--
Richard Lamb
email: lam...@flash.net
Texas Parasol web page: http://www.flash.net/~lamb01
Ronn Walker
tearing the airframe apart. The "white smoke" could very well be contrails.
As far as the number of people working to secure the site, this is a
criminal investigation (FBI) as well as NTSB. Nothing unusual there.
If you indeed have this information, I'm sure it would already be in the
hands of the FBI.
The rest of your post is just pure speculation and conspiracy theory.
Capt RJ Walker, B-727
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:zrVo7.921$Md5.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Kevin Keogh
What about the explosion on the mysteriously unreleased 911 tape? What about
the described white smoke?
Since you know so much about "signatures" tell us if a crash fro under 6,000
feet would spread metal parts, including an entire intact engine across a
trapezoidal swath approximately 25 square miles in area?
And why would a voice recorder first reported in good shape and supposedly
sent to the NTSB:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010915/us/attacks_plane_crash_10.html
now be malfunctioning and sent back to the manufacturer?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1543000/1543564.stm
Since when does the government "send" critical evidence like this to the
manufacturer? Since when do black boxes in good condition malfunction
without explanation? All of this is believable as the claim that is give
without a shred of evidence that the plane crashed because of a passenger
struggle.
stickdog
PS. I realize that who I am is incredibly pertinent to my views and linked
media sources. Come on.
now be
"Richard Hyde" <r...@batnet.com> wrote in message
news:3BA428AB...@batnet.com...
Kevin Keogh
"Ronn Walker" <ro...@tropicalhelicopter.com> wrote in message
news:OWVo7.171372$8c3.24...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> A 757 in a dive exceeding Mach 1 will produce a sonic boom, and can begin
> tearing the airframe apart. The "white smoke" could very well be
contrails.
>
It was flying from 6,000 feet starting in Cleveland. The phone call was
placed within minutes of the downing. Try again.
> As far as the number of people working to secure the site, this is a
> criminal investigation (FBI) as well as NTSB. Nothing unusual there.
>
> If you indeed have this information, I'm sure it would already be in the
> hands of the FBI.
>
I don't claim to have any information unavailable to the FBI.
> The rest of your post is just pure speculation and conspiracy theory.
>
So that's why you were able to refute my post point by point so easily, huh?
Try again and this time don't just pick out the 2 or 3 details you have a
ready answer for. BTW, I'm sure you know or realize the truth, and I agree
100% that, except for the cover up, the military made the correct decision.
stickdog
Richard Hyde
> Since when does the government "send" critical evidence like this to the
> manufacturer? Since when do black boxes in good condition malfunction
> without explanation?
I take it you are not too familiar with high tech equipment then? :-)
Who else would they send it to?
> All of this is believable as the claim that is give
> without a shred of evidence that the plane crashed because of a passenger
> struggle.
Yes, no one can be sure about the "struggle", but I'm willing to give
the survivors the benefit of the belief. Your theory, IMHO, is not as
believable. Your post selected those few sources that "might" "support"
the view that a missile took out the aircraft in question. There is no
attempt at objective analysis. To me that makes your analysis suspect.
You chose to post what you want to hear.
> PS. I realize that who I am is incredibly pertinent to my views and linked
> media sources. Come on.
We'll just have to wait and see...
Cheers,
Rick
Kevin Keogh
> Kevin Keogh wrote:
>
> > Since when does the government "send" critical evidence like this to the
> > manufacturer? Since when do black boxes in good condition malfunction
> > without explanation?
>
> I take it you are not too familiar with high tech equipment then? :-)
> Who else would they send it to?
I work with high tech equipment. Perhaps the manufacturer is a sanctioned
government laboratory. But the malfunction is both unlikely and convenient.
Has there EVER been a previous malfunction of a voice recorder found after a
land crash in an open space?
>
> > All of this is believable as the claim that is give
> > without a shred of evidence that the plane crashed because of a
passenger
> > struggle.
>
> Yes, no one can be sure about the "struggle", but I'm willing to give
> the survivors the benefit of the belief. Your theory, IMHO, is not as
> believable. Your post selected those few sources that "might" "support"
> the view that a missile took out the aircraft in question. There is no
> attempt at objective analysis. To me that makes your analysis suspect.
> You chose to post what you want to hear.
>
There is no evidence whatsoever for any other explanation. If you think
there is, then please supply it.
stickdog
Richard Lamb
Let the authorities deal with it for a while before you decide
what happened. Or get a job as a news reporter...
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> The political fallout would be too great if it turned out that our own
> fighters had been involved.
>
Why?
Larry Fransson
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Has there EVER been a previous malfunction of a voice recorder found after a
> land crash in an open space?
Yes. The one found at the Pentagon didn't work either.
Kevin Keogh
It wasn't in an open space but an interior fire.
stickdog
Roger Hamlett
>
> What about the explosion on the mysteriously unreleased 911 tape? What
about
> the described white smoke?
>
> Since you know so much about "signatures" tell us if a crash fro under
6,000
> feet would spread metal parts, including an entire intact engine across
a
> trapezoidal swath approximately 25 square miles in area?
>
> And why would a voice recorder first reported in good shape and
supposedly
> sent to the NTSB:
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010915/us/attacks_plane_crash_10.html
>
> now be malfunctioning and sent back to the manufacturer?
external appearance and apparent damage.
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1543000/1543564.stm
>
> Since when does the government "send" critical evidence like this to the
> manufacturer? Since when do black boxes in good condition malfunction
> without explanation? All of this is believable as the claim that is give
> without a shred of evidence that the plane crashed because of a
passenger
> struggle.
Very commonly. It is the manufacturer who 'reads' the black box after
allmost every aviation crash...
Best Wishes
Bob Noel
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> What about the explosion on the mysteriously unreleased 911 tape?
"explosion" means that you already have identified the sound.
The tape hasn't been released (and like every other CVR tape,
it won't be released - they never ever are released).
Therefore you don't know what the sound was.
So, your question is more properly: what about the sound
that someone reportedly called an explosion?
well, did that person ever hear the sound a bomb makes?
what about sound made when a catastrophic failure occurs
in a structural component of an aircraft? (that one I
have heard - sounds like what I imagine a bomb would sound
like, it's pretty loud) Could you distinquish those sounds
from the sound when an aircraft is be hit by a missile?
> What
> about
> the described white smoke?
what about it? Every time I get on an Airbus 319, there is
"white smoke" that comes out of the ventillation system.
--
Bob
(I think people can figure out how to email me...)
(replace ihatessppaamm with my name (rnoel) and hw1 with mediaone)
Cub Driver
If there is any truth to your speculations, my heart goes out to the
pilot who had to fire the missile. He would have been the 5001st
victim of this war, but certainly not the last.
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: let...@danford.net)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://danford.net
and message board at http://forums.delphi.com/annals/start/
jbor...@hotmail.com
> "\
> So that's why you were able to refute my post point by point so easily, huh?
> Try again and this time don't just pick out the 2 or 3 details you have a
> ready answer for. BTW, I'm sure you know or realize the truth, and I agree
> 100% that, except for the cover up, the military made the correct decision.
>
> stickdog
>
Dude, seriously, what's your ****ing point?
You have absolutely no information except what you've read in the
papers, and the number of factual errors the media have made in the
past few days is staggering. There are possible explanations for every
important point you made. This is a *piloting* news group. If you have
anything to contribute of a piloting nature, please do. Otherwise,
SHUT UP.
FredW
blocking all intelligible conversation you are capable of having.
SO WHAT if a military pilot had to take down the aircraft. Being a veteran
and of the knowledge of air defense and capability, if I were told to fire
on a passenger airplane I might (MIGHT) question it the first time only to
ensure I understood. Then I would fire away. It is a small price to pay with
the lives of a full, let alone an almost empty, airplane to save the lives
of many more.
There are things that go on in this country that none of the normal
population know about or could even guess were going on. This is to protect
our nation and to protect ignorant people like yourself to have freedom of
speech as well as other freedoms.
How about getting off your high horse and start being a supporting factor
instead of a sniveling idiot. The WTC is just the beginning, things are
going to get much tougher here really quick.
God Bless The USA,
Frederick (ready to defend) Wilson
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:oRUo7.861$Md5....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Ronn Walker
Obviously your not a pilot nor do you have any aviation experience.
Depending upon temp/dew point and the speed of the jet (and it was going
high speed) you could be producing an effect very similar to a contrail,
even down low. Now you "try again".
As another noted here, this is an aviation news group. Please go back
to your political or conspiracy groups with this nonsense.
Capt. RJ Walker, B-727
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:XdWo7.10849$lE3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jay Honeck
> > fighters had been involved.
> >
>
> Why?
Exactly. What's the point of this thread?
Hell, if it WAS one of our fighters, the pilot would be up for a medal, for
saving the White House. Or the Smithsonian. Or whatever the hell this
plane was aimed at.
The government would have no reason to hide this fact -- so what's your
point?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Warrior N33431
Garner Miller
> What about the explosion on the mysteriously unreleased 911 tape? What about
> the described white smoke?
Let's say the lunatics pushed the engines up full-throttle, and one of
them blew up? What if they overspeeded it severedly and snapped part
of a wing off, spraying fuel ("white smoke")? What if it's nothing but
contrails from a hard pull-up at high speed?
Truth is we don't know what happened yet. And neither do you. Let the
investigators do their jobs.
H. McDaniel
You don't know whether the hijackers pulled the fuses to the boxes or not.
-McDaniel
Ted Cross
over a wide area.
Scenario:
Passengers, as has been speculated by many, regained control of the plane. The
bad news is that the pilots were already incapacitated. Perhaps the passengers
knew this but knew they were going to die anyway and chose to thwart the
terrorists plans. It's reasonable to assume that the passenegers already knew
about the WTC since they were in cell phone contact with the ground.
OK, that stated, now the plane is without a pilot, is perhaps out of trim and
his heading down. It will speed up trimmed nose down and eventually exceed Vne.
Perhaps it exceeded Mach 1, someone reported something like a sonic boom. All
the same, the 757 is going to start to fall apart before it hits the ground. A
plane starting to dissintegrate due to excessive flight induced stresses is
going to make a lot of loud bangs heard by passengers and ground based persons
alike.
My point is Kevin that such a scenario is just as likely than your long
dissertation. I'd like to think it's more likely.
I also suggest that our military is more restrained than you imply. There was
still time to follow a little longer and better determine the terrorists target
before "bringing it down" while still over unpopulated areas. Usefull
intelligence wouldn't you think.
Before you jump into an aviation newsgroup with political dogma, you may want to
research the flight characteristics of aircraft.
Ted
Kevin Keogh wrote:
--
Čideard 'Ted' Cross (N0IAK & G0HHY)
n0...@qsl.net
n0...@amsat.org
n0...@mttop.org
ICQ: 16040894
N293TC (reserved) RV9A - Wings
Peter Gottlieb
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:zrVo7.921$Md5.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
Untrained locals can secure a site, but you need trained personnel to do a
proper search where you want to preserve forensic evidence.
Peter Gottlieb
>
> What about the explosion on the mysteriously unreleased 911 tape? What
about
> the described white smoke?
Who knows. Overstressing the plane, maybe even it was shot at by fighters.
> Since when does the government "send" critical evidence like this to the
> manufacturer? Since when do black boxes in good condition malfunction
> without explanation?
I have heard of this many times. Do you know firsthand what condition the
recorder was in when found?
Peter Gottlieb
>
>
> I work with high tech equipment. Perhaps the manufacturer is a sanctioned
> government laboratory. But the malfunction is both unlikely and
convenient.
> Has there EVER been a previous malfunction of a voice recorder found after
a
> land crash in an open space?
>
All work is witnessed by officials. Many recorders require repairs to
recover data. The ones that don't are the ones that are removed from planes
undamaged after an "incident." Only the memory array is really heavily
protected. The R/W electronics, being easily replaced, is outside the
protected container.
Kevin Keogh
It wasn't in an open space but an interior fire.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
figure this out.
stickdog
"H. McDaniel" <unli...@unlisted.unlisted> wrote in message
news:3BA4C346...@unlisted.unlisted...
Kevin Keogh
"Peter Gottlieb" <pe...@NewYorkNERD.com> wrote in message
news:bS3p7.3593$Na7.7...@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
land crash in an open space in which the voice data was not recovered?
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
Which is scarier:
1) A passenger 757 simply came apart at the seams because of some low
altitude turns.
2) The hijackers snuck a real bomb past security and exploded it (but
brought ceramic knives instead of real weapons because ?).
3) The Air Force had NOT given the order to shoot down a heavy destructive
terrorist bomb 10 minutes before said bomb would be over heavy populated
urban areas for the remainder of its flight path.
stickdog
"Bob Noel" <ihates...@hw1nospam.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:ihatessppaamm-4EB...@news.ne.mediaone.net...
Kevin Keogh
implement what had to be their standing orders--not a moment too soon?
You're right, I should wait for the F-16 eyewitnesses to have their say
about what happened. But I suppose their testimony hasn't been released
since their presence wasn't even admitted until yesterday.
stickdog
"Garner Miller" <gar...@netstreet.net> wrote in message
news:1eztoxu.3bwccz6l35xcN%gar...@netstreet.net...
Kevin Keogh
"Peter Gottlieb" <pe...@NewYorkNERD.com> wrote in message
Fine. These recorders always malfunction. That's why the airlines chose this
specific manufacturer.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
"Jay Honeck" <jjhonec...@home.com> wrote in message
news:2R1p7.21082$P8.66...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
I agree. The government did the right thing. The only point is that the
deniability is implausible, and the story of the heroic passengers who saved
the plane minutes before the Air Force would have had to shoot it down is a
bit insulting the American public.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
> >>>>>>>>>It was flying from 6,000 feet starting in Cleveland. <<<<<<
>
> Obviously your not a pilot nor do you have any aviation experience.
> Depending upon temp/dew point and the speed of the jet (and it was going
> high speed) you could be producing an effect very similar to a contrail,
> even down low. Now you "try again".
>
> As another noted here, this is an aviation news group. Please go
back
> to your political or conspiracy groups with this nonsense.
>
> Capt. RJ Walker, B-727
>
The sonic boom depends on temp/dewpoint? I may not be a pilot, but I did
take a few physics courses.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
<jbor...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b30aa8c2.01091...@posting.google.com...
I have an idea. Don't read any threads that you don't want to read. Put my
name in your kill file. I'm sorry that my point upsets you and that you
don't feel that the shoot down of Flight 93 has anything to do with
piloting.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
"Peter Gottlieb" <pe...@NewYorkNERD.com> wrote in message
Yes. What does the entire picture of evidence tell you? What does your
common sense tell you?
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
it is), then he is a true hero--albeit of the most tragic variety.
stickdog
"Cub Driver" <lo...@my.sig.file> wrote in message
news:ur49qtofflgakuloj...@4ax.com...
Kevin Keogh
whatever it takes to keep them from succeeding and that the American public
is strong enough to handle the truth about this.
But I still find it sad for the military.
stickdog
"FredW" <wilsonfa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Bm1p7.1572$Md5.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Kevin Keogh
"Ted Cross" <n0...@qsl.net> wrote in message
news:3BA4C681...@qsl.net...
It was flying below 6,000 feet. How do you get a sonic boom, even at
suicidal full thottle?
> My point is Kevin that such a scenario is just as likely than your long
> dissertation. I'd like to think it's more likely.
>
> I also suggest that our military is more restrained than you imply. There
was
> still time to follow a little longer and better determine the terrorists
target
> before "bringing it down" while still over unpopulated areas. Usefull
> intelligence wouldn't you think.
>
How many more minutes before the plane hit just suburban/urban areas for the
rest of its flight path?
> Before you jump into an aviation newsgroup with political dogma, you may
want to
> research the flight characteristics of aircraft.
>
I fully support the military's action. Just because I'm not to the right of
Jerry Falwell doesn't mean that I'm some crazy dogmatist, and just because
I'm not an aviation expert doesn't mean I don't understand the basic laws of
physics and probability.
I'm truly sorry that you didn't want to read this. I expected that at least
someone would be slightly interested in discussing this rather than blasting
me.
stickdog
Richard Hyde
No, the -contrail- would depend on temp/dewpoint.
Rick
Richard Hyde
Kevin Keogh wrote:
>
> I support this action 100%. I would like terrorists to know that we will do
> whatever it takes to keep them from succeeding and that the American public
> is strong enough to handle the truth about this.
>
> But I still find it sad for the military.
So you've gone from speculation to certainty? I think it's time you did
take this to the conspiracy newsgroup.
Kevin Keogh
"Richard Hyde" <r...@batnet.com> wrote in message
news:3BA4F146...@batnet.com...
And the explanation for the "sonic boom" would be?
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
Let me be clear. It could have been a bomb. It could have been God Himself
who exploded the plane to save the Air Force the trouble.
My above statement refers to the hypothetical that the most likely
explanation is the accurate one.
stickdog
Bob Noel
gar...@netstreet.net (Garner Miller) wrote:
> > What about the explosion on the mysteriously unreleased 911 tape? What
> > about
> > the described white smoke?
>
> Let's say the lunatics pushed the engines up full-throttle, and one of
> them blew up? What if they overspeeded it severedly and snapped part
> of a wing off, spraying fuel ("white smoke")? What if it's nothing but
> contrails from a hard pull-up at high speed?
>
it was a bird STIKE!!!!
yeah, that must have been it...
>
> Truth is we don't know what happened yet. And neither do you. Let the
> investigators do their jobs
bingo
Peter Gottlieb
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_K5p7.11741$lE3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Peter Gottlieb
electronics are not designed to survive a crash, it is not really a
"malfunction." You don't seem to know much about these things, do you?
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:oW5p7.11762$lE3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Peter Gottlieb
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ed8p7.2372$Md5.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Peter Gottlieb
Maybe I don't really care how the plane came down - the people on the plane
and the military are on the same team, and the team won this battle by
preventing the accomplishment of the enemy's mission.
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:y36p7.2153$Md5.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Addison Laurent
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:>
> Yes. What does the entire picture of evidence tell you? What does your
> common sense tell you?
That you're talking out of your ass.
While its quite natural to assume, and jump to conclusions, its not an
accurate method of determining the truth.
I personally would ascribe far more to the belief that the hijackers *had*
a bomb (as they apparently had access to maintenance badges, at least one
has reported to have been an A&P), and so they all had something to take
the plane out, in case the mission failed (as it was with the passengers
fighting), than the US Air Force shot the plane down, and are denying it.
If they'd shot, they'd have said so.
If they didn't, and are covering up, it will be quickly discovered.
So far, the evidence isn't very convincing that there was a shootdown.
Addison
Richard Hyde
Among the various posters to this thread, you are the only one who
thinks so.
It is much more plausible, to me, that the pax brought the plane down by
overpowering the hijackers.
Rick
Ronn Walker
did take a few physics courses.<<<<
And they obviously didn't help.
>>>>>>It was flying below 6,000 feet. How do you get a sonic boom, even at
suicidal full thottle?<<<<<<<
You can get a sonic boom at any altitude, just fly at or past Mach 1
(again, depending upon temperature). A 757 placed in a dive at full throttle
would have no problem exceeding Mach.
Like someone else stated here, do a little research on aviation before
posting this conspiricy nonsense.
>>>I'm truly sorry that you didn't want to read this. I expected that at
least someone would be slightly interested in discussing this rather than
blasting
me.<<<<<<
No, we are here to discuss aviation. Please return to the
conspiricy/politics newsgroup.
Richard Hyde
A "boom" was heard. Who said it was a "sonic boom"? I can personally
testify that the massive structual failure in a car can sound like a
"boom" followed by thunder. Some idiot kids were racing down a street
where I lived managed to roll their car. I don't know if they survived,
but the racket was impressive.
Just out of curiosity, if anyone is still reading this rather lame
thread, how many of you have actually heard a sonic boom? I have, but
it was many, many years ago...
Rick
Garner Miller
> And the explanation for the "sonic boom" would be?
That it probably wasn't one? As you said yourself in your initial
message, "More witnesses to the crash variously
report a 'sonic boom,' a loud bang and a noise the 'sounded like
thunder.'" I'd be willing to be most of these witnesses have never
heard what a real sonic boom sounds like.
--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Manchester, CT =USA=
Garner Miller
> Just out of curiosity, if anyone is still reading this rather lame
> thread, how many of you have actually heard a sonic boom?
<raising hand>
Not to mention hearing them pretty regularly when I lived near the
Kennedy Space Center.
Kevin Keogh
"Peter Gottlieb" <pe...@NewYorkNERD.com> wrote in message
news:8I8p7.3921$Na7.7...@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
Kevin Keogh
You're right. Sorry I posted anything. You've explained everything.
stickdog
"Peter Gottlieb" <pe...@NewYorkNERD.com> wrote in message
news:EN8p7.4247$aN.18...@typhoon2.gnilink.net...
Kevin Keogh
bolt. Your point?
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
From the post that started this subthread:
"A 757 in a dive exceeding Mach 1 will produce a sonic boom, and can begin
tearing the airframe apart."
I was simply disputing this contention in this specific case. The plane was
too low.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
> A 757 in a dive exceeding Mach 1 will produce a sonic boom, and can begin
contrails.
>
> As far as the number of people working to secure the site, this is a
> criminal investigation (FBI) as well as NTSB. Nothing unusual there.
>
> If you indeed have this information, I'm sure it would already be in the
> hands of the FBI.
>
> The rest of your post is just pure speculation and conspiracy theory.
>
> Capt RJ Walker, B-727
This is the message I was responding to. Specifically, "A 757 in a dive
exceeding Mach 1 will produce a sonic boom, and can begin tearing the
airframe apart." My point was that the 757 did not itself create a sonic
boom in this manner. Its altitude at the time was not sufficient.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
"Peter Gottlieb" <pe...@NewYorkNERD.com> wrote in message
>
> Maybe I don't really care how the plane came down - the people on the
plane
> and the military are on the same team, and the team won this battle by
> preventing the accomplishment of the enemy's mission.
>
>
Well, that certainly proves that I'm wrong to believe the simplest
explanation that fits the facts. Thanks for setting me straight. From now
on, I will be certain not to question the credibility of my teammates'
deniability.
BTW, I support the military's actions either way and hold the terrorists
100% responsible for these deaths either way.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
"Addison Laurent" <rn...@bcrenznvy.pbz> wrote in message
news:u09p7.350676$TM5.51...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
It could have been a bomb. But if they could sneak on a real bomb, why not
real weapons as well?
In any case, it's far less frightening to believe that the USAF did its job.
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
Sounds of explosion? Debris field?
Any evidence whatsoever for your belief's "plausibility" over mine other
than official sanction?
stickdog
Ted Cross
> "Ted Cross" <n0...@qsl.net> wrote in message
> news:3BA4C681...@qsl.net...
> > Here's another thought regarding loud bangs and peices of the plane
> scattered
> > over a wide area.
>
> [snip snip]
>
> It was flying below 6,000 feet. How do you get a sonic boom, even at
> suicidal full thottle?
>
You can get a sonic boom at any altitude, including sea level. Just have to hit
the right speed given air density, humidity etc. You can also exceed Vne at any
altitude and the plane will fall apart prior to hitting the ground. BTW, a 757
is going to get there very fast under power, with the nose down, even in with a
slight nose down attitude.
> [more snipping to shorten message]
>
>
> I fully support the military's action. Just because I'm not to the right of
> Jerry Falwell doesn't mean that I'm some crazy dogmatist, and just because
> I'm not an aviation expert doesn't mean I don't understand the basic laws of
> physics and probability.
>
> I'm truly sorry that you didn't want to read this. I expected that at least
> someone would be slightly interested in discussing this rather than blasting
> me.
>
> stickdog
I'm getting a bit sick of all the speculation and random theories that seem to
be everywhere I look, especially on TV, and yet here I am, trying to get on with
my life and persue aviation and this is the kind of crap I find on the list, and
you're not the only one. Where's normal day to day discussion. Yes I know
Tuesday was a terrible and horrific day, and I'm as shocked and horrified as the
next person, but there are limits to how much people can deal with and they want
to get away from the constant barrage of the horror of this latest attack, at
least for a while.
Even though I now live in the USA, I'm a European (Brit). I've lived with
terrorism almost all of my life, and even at peacefull times there are the
memories. Granted any single event has not been on the scale of Tuesday, but
I've suffered loss all the same and that makes terrorism very very personal to
me. I've lost friends and loved ones to terrorist attacks. I've found myself in
the middle of an incident or two for that matter. I could go on but I won't. I
for one have had enough of this for now, I'm very pissed off and sick and tired
of it after all these years.
BTW, after so many long years dealing with terrorism, I'm ready to go and fight,
to kick some terrorist ass for your (now my) country and the freedom of
civilization as we know it so, you may want to think about that before you
respond.
--
Èideard 'Ted' Cross (N0IAK & G0HHY)
n0...@qsl.net
n0...@amsat.org
n0...@mttop.org
ICQ: 16040894
N293TC (reserved) RV9A - Wings
Ronn Walker
dive
exceeding Mach 1 will produce a sonic boom, and can begin tearing the
airframe apart." My point was that the 757 did not itself create a sonic
boom in this manner. Its altitude at the time was not sufficient.>>>>>>>>>>>
What?? OK, since you are a "physics" major, just what altitude does a 757
need to produce a sonic boom?
And since you obviously know more about jet performance, explain to us how
a 757 in flight at 6,000 ft and full power cannot exceed Mach 1?
Please enlighten us.
p.s.- is this guy a clone of acrocfi/douglas eagleson?
Kevin Keogh
You're right. I apologize. You have explained everything, and I'm sorry I
bothered y'all with this trivial nonsense.
stickdog
"Ronn Walker" <ro...@tropicalhelicopter.com> wrote in message
news:S59p7.158720$aZ.27...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Richard Hyde
Ah, I see the confusion. It is possible to stress the airframe to
destruction while under Mach 1. This would certainly result in a
"boom".
Rick
Richard Hyde
Kevin Keogh wrote:
> Sounds of explosion? Debris field?
>
> Any evidence whatsoever for your belief's "plausibility" over mine other
> than official sanction?
757: Vne 513 kts Never Exceed Speed IAS
Mne 0.86 Mach Never Exceed Speed
Now the aircraft will not magically come apart of you exceed these
speeds, but throw in some abrupt control movements and you may well have
a "boom" and multiple debris fields as various components depart the
aircraft.
Look, you clearly think you have something. However it depends on a
chain of events and observations, each of which has an alternative
explanation culminating with the government covering up something which
it has no need to cover up.
The reports you quote all have differing comments on the presence,
absence, timing, and number of "booms" heard. You merely selected the
report that fit your theory.
-then- you have the problem of all these people keeping silent about the
hypothetical coverup.
Compare that to a rather simple scenario.
Pax on the doomed flight learn that the hijackers plan to crash into a
building.
They storm the cockpit - defended by hijackers wielding only boxcutters.
In the struggle, the airframe is overstressed...
It may well be that what you speculate is true. It's just very unlikely,
IMHO.
Rick
Addison Laurent
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> It could have been a bomb. But if they could sneak on a real bomb, why
> not real weapons as well?
Did they need them?
The point is *terror*. Which is why they're called *terrorists*.
"Breaking" through the system with knives (which anybody could do) is
going to be MUCH more disruptive than obviously having a way around it
with guns.
> In any case, it's far less frightening to believe that the USAF did its
> job.
I disagree, luckily.
The facts don't support such a conclusion.
Addison
Philip W Lee
18:31:55 GMT the perfect time to write:
<snip>
>It was flying below 6,000 feet. How do you get a sonic boom, even at
>suicidal full thottle?
>
rock desert a couple of years back, when the land speed record was
raised to over mach 1. That vehicle had twin turbines as well, but no
gravity assistance (in fact it had to overcome considerable drag from
the huge downforce needed to prevent inadvertant flight).
What makes you think that federal regs on supersonic flight affect the
laws of physics?
--
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci.
Addison Laurent
wrote:
> Kevin Keogh wrote:
>
>> Sounds of explosion? Debris field?
>>
>> Any evidence whatsoever for your belief's "plausibility" over mine
>> other than official sanction?
>
> 757: Vne 513 kts Never Exceed Speed IAS
> Mne 0.86 Mach Never Exceed Speed
And as we know, that's well above Va.
Reports were the plane seemed to be moving around (passengers fighting?)
Of course, this explanation has the major problem of not giving conspiracy
theorists much to work with.
(Who came up with this Va? Its a plot!)
Addison
Kevin Keogh
"Addison Laurent" <rn...@bcrenznvy.pbz> wrote in message
Do you mean to say that IF the military was proven to have shot down this
plane that you would not have supported this action?
Because:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010916/ts/attack_cheney_shoot_dc_4.html
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
How about hearing the 911 tape?
stickdog
Kevin Keogh
ridiculous rantings.
stickdog
"Ronn Walker" <ro...@tropicalhelicopter.com> wrote in message
news:krap7.174197$8c3.26...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Kevin Keogh
My bad.
You scared me into believing the US government would never mislead its
citizens about this, not for a second.
I will go away now.
stickdog
"Ted Cross" <n0...@qsl.net> wrote in message
news:3BA5331F...@qsl.net...
Joe Norris
lightning
> bolt. Your point?
But you HAVE proven that you're argumentative. You've also proven that
you'd rather believe you're own pet theory of what went happened no matter
what anyone else might think or say. So be it! That is your privilege.
To the group: This guy seems to be a garden variety troll. As you all
know, trolls feed on the reactions to their posts, so the best "cure" for a
troll is to ignore same. This guy has demonstrated that he'd more
interested in stirring the pot than anything else. My advice (for what it's
worth): Ignore him and he'll go back into whatever hole he crawled out of.
Joe Norris
Joe Norris
We are too!
Joe
Richard Hyde
Kevin Keogh wrote:
>
> You are correct. You have explained everything. Sorry I bothered you with my
> ridiculous rantings.
Does this mean you will stop your ridiculous rantings? That would be
nice.
Rick
Kevin Keogh
Maybe the terrorists had a real bomb and it somehow did explode. But it's
scary to think they could have snuck a bomb past security, and why then the
ceramic knives?
Maybe the passengers stressed the plane so much in their heroic struggle
that is broke apart before it crashed. But note the absence of big pieces
anywhere in the large field of debris.
Maybe God struck down the terrorists with lightning.
I haven't made up my mind. I am not a conspiracy theorist. But there is a
slight difference between these theories and my theory. My theory was
inevitable. The order to shoot down this plane was standing and the plane
was being tailed by an F-16. So if the plane came down without the F-16's
assistance, why haven't we heard this pilot's eyewitness testimony about
what caused the crash? And why haven't we heard his voice telling us how
relieved he was that the passengers and not he were the heroes that day?
My point is that Flight 93 could have been blown up by a terrorist bomb or
it could have fallen apart from stress--saving the USAF the trouble of
executing the standing order to bring it down--but doesn't this seem a lot
LESS likely than the far simpler and, within minutes, inevitable suggestion
that a USAF pilot successfully executed his mission? Believe me, I like the
"heroic passengers forcing the terrorists to explode the bomb as a last
resort to being captured alive" scenario better. I just have a hard time
believing it.
Believe what you wish, good luck to you all, and God Bless America!
stickdog
Richard Hyde
Kevin Keogh wrote:
>
> Why is this so hard for y'all to understand?
Poor guy. I honestly think he doesn't get it
Oh well...
Larry Fransson
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 1) A passenger 757 simply came apart at the seams because of some low
> altitude turns.
Any airplane will come apart at the seams if you overstress it.
Larry Fransson
Cub Driver <lo...@my.sig.file> wrote:
> If there is any truth to your speculations, my heart goes out to the
> pilot who had to fire the missile.
Word comes out that the president had authorized shooting down aircraft
that appeared to be headed for DC targets, but it was stated again that
it did not happen.
Larry Fransson
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And the explanation for the "sonic boom" would be?
The aircraft exceeding the speed of sound. Not difficult in a steep
power on dive from high altitude.
Larry Fransson
Richard Hyde <r...@batnet.com> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, if anyone is still reading this rather lame
> thread, how many of you have actually heard a sonic boom? I have, but
> it was many, many years ago...
I have. One of the fun things about being on an aircraft carrier were
the things you got to do while at sea. At the end of a WestPac
deployment, we'd stop in Pearl Harbor and do a "tiger cruise" going home
- crewmembers could bring aboard someone from their family to make the
trip from Pearl back home. The air wing put on an airshow during the
tiger cruise, and that airshow involved some live ammunition
demonstrations (it's seriously cool seeing a 500 pound bomb lofted a
couple miles downrange from an A-6) and a supersonic pass. One year it
was an F-14, and another year it was an F-18. The approach of the
airplane seemed nearly silent until it got to probably 20-30 degrees or
so (I could probably figure it out if I had a shock table on me) past
where I was standing. Then there was a sound like a shotgun shot,
followed by lots of loud airplane sounds.
Larry
Joachim Feise
>
> Just out of curiosity, if anyone is still reading this rather lame
> thread, how many of you have actually heard a sonic boom? I have, but
> it was many, many years ago...
I have, in the 70ies, when fighter jets were still doing supersonic practice
flights over Europe.
-Joe
Holger Stephan
practice
> flights over Europe.
>
> -Joe
So did I. As I remember it, there was little to no difference to hearing a
bomb go off. Nothing specific about it, just painfully loud.
Holger
Kyrilian
> This is the message I was responding to. Specifically, "A 757 in a dive
> exceeding Mach 1 will produce a sonic boom, and can begin tearing the
> airframe apart." My point was that the 757 did not itself create a sonic
> boom in this manner. Its altitude at the time was not sufficient.
Who cares if the 757 _could_ go supersonic...
If the report of a sonic boom was from the ground, then it could have been a
fighter trying to get to the area to be in a position to take action if
necessary. I think I heard reports (not sure of the validity) that the F-16s
were flying supersonic on their way.
If the report was from the A/C (I presume this 911 call was from the plane?),
then the noise wouldn't have been a sonic boom--you don't hear the boom if
you're the one going supersonic, like any of the passengers. Only those going a
different speed (such as zero on the ground) would have heard it...
Also, how was it known that the aircraft was at 6000ft? I thought the
transponder was off, and isn't ATC primary radar incapable of determining
altitude?
Personally, I don't think anything is out of the question. Though not telling
the truth now could cause more trouble in the future, a possible reason to keep
quiet anything about a shoot-down includes the fact that people want to believe
that the passengers were heros and caused the hijackers to fail their apparent
mission (a seemingly plausible explanation). Another reason would be that some
would perhaps question such a hasty action if it was actually brought down by an
F-16 and 'they' may not want to focus on such issues at this time. Please
realize I'm just playing devil's advocate and don't necessarily subscribe to
this theory. Some questions (sounds, puffs of smoke, parts strewn across a
large area) still need to be answered however. Heck, the center fuel tank could
have exploded (flt 800)! There's just not enough evidence at this time that we,
the general public are aware of to confirm any theory.
Kevin Keogh
Having an extremely strong and reasonable argument dismissed in such a
flippant and meaningless manner certainly helps me to "get it."
To repeat myself:
Why is this so hard for y'all to understand?
Maybe the terrorists had a real bomb and it somehow did explode. But it's
scary to think they could have snuck a bomb past security, and why then the
ceramic knives?
Maybe the passengers stressed the plane so much in their heroic struggle
that it broke apart before it crashed. But note the absence of big pieces
Jack
>
> 757: Vne 513 kts Never Exceed Speed IAS
I've got to agree with you that the 757 will never exceed 513 KIAS.
Where did you find that number?
--
Jack
-----
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball.
I'll tell you what I do: I stare out the window and wait for spring."
-- Rogers Hornsby
Bob Noel
"Kevin Keogh" <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Having an extremely strong and reasonable argument dismissed in such a
> flippant and meaningless manner certainly helps me to "get it."
advise when you meet such conditions.
--
Bob
(I think people can figure out how to email me...)
(replace ihatessppaamm with my name (rnoel) and hw1 with mediaone)
Richard Hyde
Jack wrote:
>
> Richard Hyde wrote:
>
> >
> > 757: Vne 513 kts Never Exceed Speed IAS
>
> I've got to agree with you that the 757 will never exceed 513 KIAS.
>
> Where did you find that number?
I did a goolge search for 757 and Vne :
http://webpages.charter.net/rtpete/html/757.html
Rick
Jack
>
> I did a google search for 757 and Vne....
Some of the info on the page you cite is inaccurate and/or misleading,
adequate perhaps for flight sim games.
The 757s we operate have a much lower max operating speed than you
claimed. Some outfits operate the 757 at different MGW and there are
different engine options, but it is inconceivable that there would be
more than a very few knots difference in the limiting speeds.
Max KIAS should be in the area of 350 KIAS for all operators.
Richard Hyde
>
> Richard Hyde wrote:
> >
> > I did a google search for 757 and Vne....
>
> Some of the info on the page you cite is inaccurate and/or misleading,
> adequate perhaps for flight sim games.
>
> The 757s we operate have a much lower max operating speed than you
> claimed. Some outfits operate the 757 at different MGW and there are
> different engine options, but it is inconceivable that there would be
> more than a very few knots difference in the limiting speeds.
>
> Max KIAS should be in the area of 350 KIAS for all operators.
I saw that it was a flight sim page, but I also did a cross check of the
Boeing site and determined that the cruising speed of the 757 was Mach
0.80. From that I accepted the .086 as at least being in the ballpark
(lacking an official Boeing reference).
The situation didn't lend itself to niceties of MGW and density
altitude.
I was simply attempting to point out that, given the situation, the
structural limits of the aircraft could well have been exceeded before
Mach 1.0 was achieved.
Since you have access to the data, what is the range of Vne for the
757? This should be well in excess of max cruise.
Cheers,
Rick
rang...@mindspring.com
the plane was intact, nothing visibly wrong with it other than the fact that
it was diving for the ground at an extreme rate of speed?
It is possible that the plane was running with the engines maxed out and a
sudden abrupt change in attitude caused a compressor stall (bang).
The initial estimates had the plane striking the ground at over 500 knots
(way over speed). The planes that hit the towers and the Pentagon were not
moving that fast, but you still don't see any big pieces of them. They were
shattered on impact. The ground is much more solid than those buildings, so
it is reasonable that the PA plane was shattered on impact.
I am imagining the following:
Flying wide open at 6000 feet at full power the aircraft is really eating up
the real estate (fact). The passengers were told of the other suicide
attacks (fact). The passengers decided to take action and communicated this
during their calls (fact). There were four terrorists on the plane (fact).
I think that there were probably two ragheads in the cockpit and two
watching the cabin (and probably gawking out the windows part of the time,
sightseeing in the land of the infidels). Some of the passengers rushed the
rear guard and kept them occupied while at least one other got into the
cockpit. All the citizen in the cockpit had to do was get the yoke forward
for a short period of time, possibly by jumping on the raghead of on the
wheel directly. Even if they killed him, his dead weight is still on the
yoke. At the speed the plane was making in level flight, any dive would
result in a remarkable increase in airspeed. At that altitude and
increasing speed the time to impact would be short, and the speed so great
that even if they could get control of the wheel back, recovery would be
doubtful.
If the plane had been shot down there would have been big chunks of
airplane. The sidewinder A2A missile is a heatseeker that would track and
hit the engine, and possibly damage the wing, it would not explode the
aircraft into tiny pieces.
Your conspiracy theory does not hold water and also does not serve any
useful purpose other than to sling mud at the memories of average citizens
who rose to the highest level under the most extreme situation. I don't
know if I would be able to perform as well in the same situation.
When I was growing up, the astronauts were my heroes. That's why I got
involved in aviation. As of 911 Day, I now have new heroes.
Death to the Outfidels
(If we're the Infidels, they must be the Outfidels)
Mike
PP-ASEL
Kevin Keogh <kevin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ve6p7.11820$lE3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Ted Cross" <n0...@qsl.net> wrote in message
> news:3BA4C681...@qsl.net...
> > Here's another thought regarding loud bangs and peices of the plane
> scattered
> > over a wide area.
> >
> > Scenario:
> >
> > Passengers, as has been speculated by many, regained control of the
plane.
> The
> > bad news is that the pilots were already incapacitated. Perhaps the
> passengers
> > knew this but knew they were going to die anyway and chose to thwart the
> > terrorists plans. It's reasonable to assume that the passenegers already
> knew
> > about the WTC since they were in cell phone contact with the ground.
> > OK, that stated, now the plane is without a pilot, is perhaps out of
trim
> and
> > his heading down. It will speed up trimmed nose down and eventually
exceed
> Vne.
> > Perhaps it exceeded Mach 1, someone reported something like a sonic
boom.
> All
> > the same, the 757 is going to start to fall apart before it hits the
> ground. A
> > plane starting to dissintegrate due to excessive flight induced stresses
> is
> > going to make a lot of loud bangs heard by passengers and ground based
> persons
> > alike.
> >
>
> It was flying below 6,000 feet. How do you get a sonic boom, even at
> suicidal full thottle?
>
>
> > My point is Kevin that such a scenario is just as likely than your long
> > dissertation. I'd like to think it's more likely.
> >
> > I also suggest that our military is more restrained than you imply.
There
> was
> > still time to follow a little longer and better determine the terrorists
> target
> > before "bringing it down" while still over unpopulated areas. Usefull
> > intelligence wouldn't you think.
> >
>
> How many more minutes before the plane hit just suburban/urban areas for
the
> rest of its flight path?
>
>
> > Before you jump into an aviation newsgroup with political dogma, you may
> want to
> > research the flight characteristics of aircraft.
Wizard of Draws
>
> A "boom" was heard. Who said it was a "sonic boom"? I can personally
> testify that the massive structual failure in a car can sound like a
> "boom" followed by thunder. Some idiot kids were racing down a street
> where I lived managed to roll their car. I don't know if they survived,
> but the racket was impressive.
>
> Just out of curiosity, if anyone is still reading this rather lame
> thread, how many of you have actually heard a sonic boom? I have, but
> it was many, many years ago...
>
Plenty of us hear 2 of them every time the Space Shuttle comes back in.
Practically knocked me out of my sleeping bag one morning at Catalina.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com
Slips with Flaps T-shirt
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/main/flaps.html
Peter Gottlieb
"Todd Pattist" <pat...@DONTSPAMME.snet.net> wrote in message
news:h86fqtkukvu6a9l9k...@4ax.com...
> <rang...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I wish you'd skip the "raghead" comments. I'm as outraged
> as you over the deaths of innocents, but to win this battle
> in the long run, we'll need the help of Arabs, Muslims, and
> others who fall within the "raghead" label. To ultimately
> win, it will help to keep the moral high ground.
Agreed, we are fighting extremists, not Muslims in general.
Not just because it is labelled "moral high ground," but because it is the
right thing to do.
Peter