Do pilot's licenses look good on "out of field" resumes?
Justin Maas
training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of aviation? I
imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will realize that a
pilot's license is representative of someone's responsibility....
Justin Maas
IFR PP-ASEL
Mike Reichfeld
Some look at it as high risk person, who if employed, and become disable while
flying, the insurance cost for the employer will sky rocket thereafter.
seeya..Mike..
Roy Smith, CFI
> Just wondering what people's experiences were with this. Does flight
> training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of
> aviation?
> I imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will
> realize that a pilot's license is representative of someone's
> responsibility....
I just completed a job search (hint: I won't be roy....@med.nyu.edu
much longer), and debated about putting my flying experience in an
"other interests" section on my resume. I'm at that point in my
professional career where what I'm pushing is my technical skill and
experience, and wasn't sure whether "other interests" was appropriate in
such a context. After some debate, I put it in (just a couple of lines
at the end).
Turns out, it made a nice ice-breaker on an interview. We didn't spend
more than about 90 seconds talking about it, but it sure beat, "So,
explain to me just why you think you're worthy of employment here?" as a
conversation opener.
The first task of a resume is to provide enough interest to the reader
to avoid being looked at for 15 seconds and thrown into the trash
basket. Something like being a pilot could just be the thing that gets
you 60 seconds of attention instead of 10, and that could be all the
difference in the world. I remember one I fell in love with, where the
guy had absolutely nothing to set him apart from the rest of the pile
other than that he composed his own guitar music. It may be dumb, but
much of life is dumb :-)
I think it's even more important on the resume of somebody just starting
out. I've read a lot of resumes, and let me tell you, most of them just
plain suck. Seeing something like being a pilot on the resume of
somebody right out of school says to me, "This person has what it takes
to get something done". It could be anything from being a ham radio
operator to having shown the best lamb at the county fair; it still
means you had a goal and did what it took to reach that goal. That
means a lot to somebody reading resumes.
--
Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA
joe
In England, flying is much more mystical than in America. People here treat
you like a genius if you can tell them what the green flashing light does...
I therefore make a point of flying to all important business meetings, even
if they are just up the road, you are instantly considered to be on a
different level to whom you are dealing with if they have to pick you up
from the airport.
I’ve done some killer deals this way for no other reason than the
misconception of success and brains etc… bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, etc…
A good many FI’s in this country even use the line ”If you look the part…
then you’ll be the part”
Joe (still as many landings as take offs) Lyske
Tom
"Roy Smith, CFI" <roy....@med.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:roy.smith-85FE0...@netnews.nyu.edu...
>SNIP
> Turns out, it made a nice ice-breaker on an interview. We didn't spend
> more than about 90 seconds talking about it, but it sure beat, "So,
> explain to me just why you think you're worthy of employment here?" as a
> conversation opener.
I agree! It makes a great conversation piece. Also, I work for a large
investment management firm and since my hobby is aviation I wind up being
assigned to manage the money of just about all the retired airline pilots
who hire my firm to manage their funds. It makes for far more enjoyable
client lunches chatting about their flying experiences then my "typical"
client lunch where I get to hear about my client's lousy golf games or
latest operation.
Regards,
Tom Tripp
Cub driver
>Just wondering what people's experiences were with this. Does flight
>training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of aviation? I
>imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will realize that a
>pilot's license is representative of someone's responsibility....
That would be my reaction. My late mother-in-law, however, would have
concluded that you were a thrill-seeking fool.
Perhaps it would be of more value in a "new economy" job than in an
old-line industry?
Certainly it should indicate what a B.A. degree does: this guy can set
a goal and stick to it until it's accomplished. Really, isn't that the
only value of a degree in the U.S. today?
all the best - Dan Ford
Annals of Military Aviation http://www.delphi.com/annals
Mark Kolber
>Some look at it as high risk person, who if employed, and become disable while
>flying, the insurance cost for the employer will sky rocket thereafter.
Of course, aviation exclusions are far less common for disability
policies than for life insurance. In fact. a friend of mine in the
business once told me that there are no aviation exclusions for
disability because actuarially, if you're not killed in an air crash,
you'll probably walk away from it.
=======================================
______|______ Mark Kolber
\(o)/ Denver, Colorado
o O o www.midlifeflight.com
=======================================
email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber"
Charles Oppermann
> had several anti-aviation policies, including an aviation exclusion in the
> company life-insurance policy and a rule that said that if I flew myself
> to a business meeting it would be grounds for immediate dismissal. My
> resume went out to the headhunters about an hour after I read that policy.
Every company I've worked for had a similar policy including a rather large
software firm in the Seattle area. If you're flying to a business meeting
and you crash, the company maybe liable for workers compensation and such.
Walt Shiel
news:Jhbw5.19$O37....@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
: Just wondering what people's experiences were with this. Does flight
: training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of aviation?
I
: imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will realize that a
: pilot's license is representative of someone's responsibility....
Remember the purpose of a resume: to get an interview.
Remember the motivation of the initial screener of resumes: find resumes
that meet the stated requirements and don't send any forward that might
embarass me or get me in trouble. Better to reject possible good ones with
anything that doesn't quite fit than to take a chance. (They're looking for
reasons to reject you.)
With that in mind, anyone who sends out cookie-cutter resumes is probably
wasting their time. Always rewrite and target your resume to the company,
its products, and/or needs stated in their ads. The first person to read
it, unless you have some contact that allows you to bypass this step, will
almost certainly NOT be the hiring manager.
Put everything relevant to the desired position in the resume/cover letter
and nothing that is not relevant (although you could rewrite something to
make it sound more relevant).
I would say NO to putting pilot licenses on non-aviation resumes.
Walt
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Walt Shiel
http://www.writeshiel.com - NEW & IMPROVED
Author: "Cessna Warbirds: A Detailed and Personal History
of Cessna's Involvement in the Armed Forces"
--"A true military aviation enthusiast's delight." - Airpower Journal
BUY IT: http://www.writeshiel.com/cw-order.html
------
Free Newsletter: The Warbird eXpress mailto:TWX-su...@egroups.com
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
S. Ramirez
It has been my experience that peers think one makes too much money if
one is flying around and having fun. I work in a highly competitive
environment (as I am sure many of you do), and I do business differently
than my peers. Basically it involves much more risk taking. Since I am
operate differently, there is always the thought that perhaps I make more
money than my peers. If they can see something tangible to prove it, such
as my flying to meetings or just flying in general,which is perceived to
cost a lot of money, then they can assume that I make more money than they
do. Envy being what it is, I think that it is more appropriate to leave it
off.
Of course everyone has their own environment to live and work in, and
it most likely different than my environment.
Just my opinion based on my environment.
-Simon Ramirez,
PP-ASEL
"Justin Maas" <jus...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Jhbw5.19$O37....@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> Just wondering what people's experiences were with this. Does flight
> training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of aviation?
I
> imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will realize that a
> pilot's license is representative of someone's responsibility....
>
>
> Justin Maas
> IFR PP-ASEL
>
>
>
>
Opus X225
I am a headhunter that deals with the hotel / hospitality. A couple of hundred
resumes cross my desk every week, and I've only seen one or two that were
pilots and I can assure you that it got my attantion (I realize that I'm
biased). As mentioned before, it can provide for a nice icebreaker, and
anything that establishes you as an individual isn't bad. It also shows that
you are a well rounded person and have other interests outside of work.
Just my $.02 worth,
Trevor
Dan Luke
> It has been my experience that peers think one makes too much money if
> one is flying around and having fun.
I have had the same experience with my mechanical contractor customers. It
is impossible to convince some of them that an airplane can be an effective
business tool. After they find out I flew in to check a job, next bid day I
hear: "How come your price is so high...gotta make an airplane payment?"
(Even when I'm the low bidder!)
Dan
N9387D at BFM
Roy Smith
> I have had the same experience with my mechanical contractor customers. It
> is impossible to convince some of them that an airplane can be an effective
> business tool. After they find out I flew in to check a job, next bid day I
> hear: "How come your price is so high...gotta make an airplane payment?"
> (Even when I'm the low bidder!)
We bought an old house a couple years ago and did a gut renovation on it. The
GC I hired was a pilot and just about the time he finished my house, he bought a
seaplane (Lake Amphibian). We joke that I really bought him the plane.
I actually tried to talk him out of buying the plane, but he had full blinders
on about the cost of airplane ownership. The last I spoke with him, the plane
had been down for several months with a $20k Annual From Hell (the first real
annual since he bought it, the first apparantly being a pencil-whipping as part
of the purchase process)
--
Roy Smith <r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu>
CP-ASEL-IA, CFI-ASE-IA
Dan Luke
> I actually tried to talk him out of buying the plane, but he had full
blinders
> on about the cost of airplane ownership.
Mine's had a FFWD overhaul and a panel upgrade plus etc,. etc. since I
bought it in Feb. I've kept every receipt, but I've never added them all up.
I'm afraid the shock might kill me.
Yesterday I got an emergency AD on the engine that grounded the airplane
until enough unobtanium can be mined to make some gaskets.
I still love owning my own a/c. This means I'm nuts, right?
Dan
N9387D at BFM
RossPilot
>bought it in Feb. I've kept every receipt, but I've never added them all up.
>I'm afraid the shock might kill me.
>
>Yesterday I got an emergency AD on the engine that grounded the airplane
>until enough unobtanium can be mined to make some gaskets.
>
>I still love owning my own a/c. This means I'm nuts, right?
>
Just like the rest of us . . . I love my plane so much that I have found myself
talking to it like a person--telling her how glad to see her I am, thanking her
after every flight, kissing her on the spinner before I walk off the ramp to my
car. I don't care what it costs, and I don't care how crazy people think I am.
Dan Larsen
> I just completed a job search (hint: I won't be roy....@med.nyu.edu
> much longer), and debated about putting my flying experience in an
> "other interests" section on my resume. I'm at that point in my
> professional career where what I'm pushing is my technical skill and
> experience, and wasn't sure whether "other interests" was appropriate in
> such a context. After some debate, I put it in (just a couple of lines
> at the end).
>
> Turns out, it made a nice ice-breaker on an interview. We didn't spend
> more than about 90 seconds talking about it, but it sure beat, "So,
> explain to me just why you think you're worthy of employment here?" as a
> conversation opener.
>
> The first task of a resume is to provide enough interest to the reader
> to avoid being looked at for 15 seconds and thrown into the trash
> basket. Something like being a pilot could just be the thing that gets
> you 60 seconds of attention instead of 10, and that could be all the
> difference in the world. I remember one I fell in love with, where the
> guy had absolutely nothing to set him apart from the rest of the pile
> other than that he composed his own guitar music. It may be dumb, but
> much of life is dumb :-)
>
> I think it's even more important on the resume of somebody just starting
> out. I've read a lot of resumes, and let me tell you, most of them just
> plain suck. Seeing something like being a pilot on the resume of
> somebody right out of school says to me, "This person has what it takes
> to get something done". It could be anything from being a ham radio
> operator to having shown the best lamb at the county fair; it still
> means you had a goal and did what it took to reach that goal. That
> means a lot to somebody reading resumes.
Well, my present employment is a cross between aviation and computer
science (what I'm studying at the U). I can't say that my flight
background adds significant amounts of background experience to what we
(or more particularly *I*) do here, but it didn't hurt either.
This job, however, is the first one I have in the industry. Six months
after I turn in my resume I get a call from the tech people here. "I see
you're a pilot. We're working on project blah and project blah blah. Do
either of those sound interesting?" Yes, I think it set me apart from
most other people, but in this industry I'm not sure it made a difference.
As Roy said, though, it sure makes a good icebreaker.
--Dan
Charles Oppermann
> until enough unobtanium can be mined to make some gaskets.
>
> I still love owning my own a/c. This means I'm nuts, right?
I got the same AD, and for my first AD, it's got to be an emergency AD!
--
Charles Oppermann
Copper Aviation http://www.coppersoftware.com/aviation/
N965CW Cessna 182S
S. Ramirez
I would agree with what you said if all people reading resumes were
pilots. Then certainly pilots would get attention fast!
But this world is full of non-pilots reading resumes. Most of them
think that pilots are kooky risk-takers. This and what I mentioned
previously, i.e., that most people think pilots make too much money to pay
for their flying, keeps me from putting down "pilot" and aviation activity
on my resume.
In my line of work, I have ran only across one manager reviewing my
resume that was a pilot. I didn't have it in my resume, but it came up
during my personal interview. We immediately headed to Hanscom Field in
Beford, MA, where he showed me around the FBOs and their rental aircraft.
He was trying to talk me into coming to work for his company, and I did!
I am a contractor and only stay at companies for 3 months to a year. I
have to interview on average about every nine months. I do not plan on
putting down that I am a pilot on my resumes. If it comes up during the
personal interview, then so be it. I can gauge the interviewer better then
to determine if he is receptive to it or not.
-Simon Ramirez, PP-ASEL
Aerocanard Builder
"Opus X225" <opus...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915134551...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
Walt Shiel
news:IkWw5.57909$98.52...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
: But this world is full of non-pilots reading resumes. Most of them
: think that pilots are kooky risk-takers. This and what I mentioned
: previously, i.e., that most people think pilots make too much money to pay
: for their flying, keeps me from putting down "pilot" and aviation activity
: on my resume.
Like I said, never put anything on a resume not relevant to the job or that
just might give somebody in the screening chain a reason to reject you.
A resume will never get you a job; it might get you an interview.
Dudley Henriques
"Justin Maas" <jus...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Jhbw5.19$O37....@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> Just wondering what people's experiences were with this. Does flight
> training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of
aviation? I
> imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will realize
that a
> pilot's license is representative of someone's responsibility....
Speaking from my experience with hiring in my own company I would say
that the answer to this is an emphatic NO!
Outside aviation, you have about five seconds to interest further
inspection in your resume body through careful and intelligent use of
your cover letter. Even in the resume body, it could be seen as an
attempt to impress rather than state relevant fact and create associated
interest.
The best place to put this kind of information is under "hobbies" on the
actual job application, AFTER the interview.
--
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
stuart
more appropriate under "hobbies" category. If I were applying for a
non-aviation related job, and it so happened that I was a commercial or
military pilot in another life, I would be inclined to place it under
something like, "previous employment" in a very succinct fashion, without
any hint of embellishment pertaining to my superlative qualifications or
experience as a pilot.
--
-----------------------------------------------------
"Dudley Henriques" <dhenr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ja4x5.2282$nk3.1...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Dudley Henriques
"stuart" <hyde...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Kk4x5.12675$Y7.2...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> Good Advice Dudley. For someone like myself, any flight experience
would be
> more appropriate under "hobbies" category. If I were applying for a
> non-aviation related job, and it so happened that I was a commercial
or
> military pilot in another life, I would be inclined to place it under
> something like, "previous employment" in a very succinct fashion,
without
> any hint of embellishment pertaining to my superlative qualifications
or
> experience as a pilot.
Yes, it's a predictable mistake on resumes that applicants
unfortunately make quite often . It's common to consider an experience
as complicated as learning to fly as a difficult goal attained through
effort. This of course is true on the personal basis, but can be a
disqualifying disaster if used out of context on a resume. Many
applicants make a fatal error by classifying their resumes in the
interview context instead of where it belongs; as a tool to open the
door to the interview. Actually, each step(cover letter- resume-
interview- post interview follow up) is so important that it should be
treated independently of the others and given careful consideration on
it's own merit. Employment personnel are generally highly trained
observers who will scan a cover letter; making an initial decision in
seconds about following up with a resume view. Piquing this interest
should be the SOLE purpose of the cover. Once inside the resume,
something like an insertion about flight training can be an instant turn
off to a highly trained observer. The resume scan is seeking "related"
and "pertinent" employment information only at this point, and the
simple breaking of this scan mode can put the resume in the waste
basket. The observer will most likely view such an insertion as a fatal
resume error and consider the source of that very basic error as being
worthy of no further action.
Applicants are well advised to consider employment personnel as expert
on the subject of resume psychology, and as such, worthy of great
respect and consideration when considering the resume format. It is
absolutely true, that it is possible to be the most highly qualified
person in your field in the entire world, and never make it past the
cover letter due to bad resume format.
General rule for me at least on resumes is as follows,
1. Use the cover to sell me on viewing the resume.
2. In the resume body, be precise; be truthful; and tell me how you are
going to make my company better if I hire you. Above all else, make me
curious enough about you and your qualifications to want to see you in
person. This means not taking up my time right now by entering into a
written interview. I want to realize that you were intelligent enough to
accomplish these initial goals on your own.
Blanche Cohen
"Employment personnel are generally highly trained
observers who will scan a cover letter; making an initial decision in
seconds about following up with a resume view."
Personally, I've rarely met an employment person
1) who had any idea or knowledge of what I do
2) nor of the job I was applying for,
3) (and to take the other side) nor of the position I, as the manager,
was looking to fill.
Sorry to be so negative, but over 95% of the HR people (and that includes
headhunters) are so ignorant of the computer industry that all they can
do is parrot the buzzwords (and most don't even do that correctly). Which
means they cannot properly evaluate a resume.
As an employee I've reviewed lots (hundreds!) of resumes that various
HR/headhunters refer and almost all are inappropriate for the position.
end of soapbox.
William W. Plummer
degree, or worse, a psychology degree. They want to know the one, single
descriptive word that they can use to pigeon-hole a job opening or a
job-applicant. This makes it easy to search databases and produce matches.
"Database", "web design", "C++" etc.
As a result, someone with broad experience and a demonstrated track record
who is tring to sell his/her ability to think, produce a vision, and lead a
group will almost never get through the HR office. Personal contacts are
the best way to get interviews for appropriate jobs. --Bill
"Blanche Cohen" <bla...@atlas.csd.net> wrote in message
news:8q2uoe$guf$1...@apollo.csd.net...
Peter Gottlieb
"William W. Plummer" <wplu...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:Jn7x5.25134$pu4.2...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
>
> As a result, someone with broad experience and a demonstrated track record
> who is tring to sell his/her ability to think, produce a vision, and lead
a
> group will almost never get through the HR office.
Unfortunately, you are right. I am finding that when you reach a certain
level of achievement it is nearly impossible to get hired in any role except
as a consultant. Then, your experiences as a consultant are deemed "not
relevant" to full-time employment, no matter what you've accomplished nor
how well you've accomplished it.
Either that or you get viewed as a threat to the manager doing the
interviewing.
Peter
Dudley Henriques
"Blanche Cohen" <bla...@atlas.csd.net> wrote in message
news:8q2uoe$guf$1...@apollo.csd.net...
> Dudley remarks:
> "Employment personnel are generally highly trained
> observers who will scan a cover letter; making an initial decision in
> seconds about following up with a resume view."
>
> Personally, I've rarely met an employment person
> 1) who had any idea or knowledge of what I do
> 2) nor of the job I was applying for,
> 3) (and to take the other side) nor of the position I, as the manager,
> was looking to fill.
>
> Sorry to be so negative, but over 95% of the HR people (and that
includes
> headhunters) are so ignorant of the computer industry that all they
can
> do is parrot the buzzwords (and most don't even do that correctly).
Which
> means they cannot properly evaluate a resume.
>
> As an employee I've reviewed lots (hundreds!) of resumes that various
> HR/headhunters refer and almost all are inappropriate for the
position.
>
> end of soapbox.
You and several other posters have made a very good point here.
I believe you have every right to this opinion. I've seen quite a lot of
this myself. The factors I have described as being present in many
personnel employees don't necessarily constitute the skill base required
to evaluate the applicant correctly. The factors I mentioned are in fact
only pertinent to the psychology of getting a resume read. The term
"highly trained observer" in many cases translates into a word trigger
that either can get a resume read, or thrown into the waste basket. To
reiterate my point in a different way, one could easily say that it
requires two separate skills to make it successfully into American
business; one to make it past the personnel department, and the second
associated directly with the position for which you are hired.
It's for the reasons you and others have noted so correctly, that the
art and science of human factors has in many cases denigrated into a
donnybrook of incompetence and inaccuracy.
(But you still have to get past them) :-)
Sylvain Louboutin
>Like I said, never put anything on a resume not relevant to the job or that
>just might give somebody in the screening chain a reason to reject you.
I don't really agree with that. I have been on both sides of the interview
table, and something to 'break the ice' can be quite helpful to either
side I think;
I put this info on my resume for another (wicked?) reason: I do have
a visible physical disability; some might question my abilities as
a result (no matter what the laws say), so my flying credential kindof
show that I don't let such minor inconvenience get in my way and that
there may be something more to the 'package' that I am offering than
meet the eyes :-)
Dudley Henriques
"RossPilot" <ross...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915171317...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> Just like the rest of us . . . I love my plane so much that I have
found myself
> talking to it like a person--telling her how glad to see her I am,
thanking her
> after every flight, kissing her on the spinner before I walk off the
ramp to my
> car. I don't care what it costs, and I don't care how crazy people
think I am.
After every show I flew, as I climbed out of the cockpit, I always
patted the side of the Mustang and said, "thanks again kid." It became a
ritual with me. I can't actually remember one time I didn't do it.. My
wife said I was superstitious. I told her it was just something I really
couldn't explain. She sort of looked at me with that (all pilots are a
bit nuts, but I love you anyway look) Come to think of it, she STILL
looks at me that way sometimes. :-)
I remember Bill Fornof did about the same thing with his F8F. He had a
beautiful hand painted lettering job on the lower cowl that simply
said,"Oh Baby, if you love me, don't ever leave me."
It's quite common for pilots to form "unusual attachments" with their
airplanes. Hell, I even talked to mine when I was in the air. But don't
worry, you're ok as long as the airplane doesn't answer you......
:-)))
--
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
P51 Mustang
psys...@my-deja.com
Consider who you want to work for. If a person sees you as a
risk-taker because your a pilot, is that a bad thing?
I wouldn't work for someone who wasn't willing to take
risks themselves, professionally or personally. So
it went on my resume, and I got the job.
Fast companies are by nature risk takers. You will be graded
on your competence professionally, personally, and socially when
you are in the interview.
Being a pilot speaks positively to all three of these.
Besides, all the cool folks in _atlas_shrugged_ flew their own
planes. Shouldn't any good capitalist? ;-)
-Matt
-Net-Eng/Software Dev
-Mooney Pilot/Owner (N3433X)
>In article <Ja4x5.2282$nk3.1...@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "Justin Maas" <jus...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Jhbw5.19$O37....@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > Just wondering what people's experiences were with this. Does
flight
> > training catch people's eyes when applying for a job outside of
> aviation? I
> > imagine, if the HR person is smart enough, that he/she will realize
> that a
> > pilot's license is representative of someone's responsibility....
>
> Speaking from my experience with hiring in my own company I would say
> that the answer to this is an emphatic NO!
>
> Outside aviation, you have about five seconds to interest further
> inspection in your resume body through careful and intelligent use of
> your cover letter. Even in the resume body, it could be seen as an
> attempt to impress rather than state relevant fact and create
associated
> interest.
>
> The best place to put this kind of information is under "hobbies" on
the
> actual job application, AFTER the interview.
> --
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.