--
Chris W
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
"Chris W" <chr...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EBFEE92...@cox.net...
Bob Gardner
"Chris W" <chr...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EBFEE92...@cox.net...
Any comments?
Marco
"Bob Gardner" <bob...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:PqSva.817436$3D1.460733@sccrnsc01...
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> I have the highest regard for Fred Potts, but I think he has left some
> things unsaid. You need something on the lifting surfaces to disrupt the
> airflow over them...a 2 x 4 tied firmly to the upper surface of the wing
> about 1/3 of the way aft of the leading edge will do the trick. Simply tying
> the airplane down won't work, IMHO. I wonder how many 100mph winds he
> experienced in Alaska.
>
I don't know about Fred, but I've seen winds of 100 or greater in Anchorage
twice in the last 12 years or so. Winds of 40-60 occur several times a year in
the Anchorage area.
I agree about some kind of spoiler. My 182 survived several winds up to 70 or so
without spoilers on the wings. One of the real nasty winds I did park my truck
in front to break the wind...and went around and checked tiedowns on the
airplanes "upwind" from mine. <G>
--
Dale L. Falk
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.
> So is tying 2x4s to the wings the recommendation under hurricane-force
> winds? While I'm at it, I've received conflicting advice on whether tie
> down
> ropes should be as tight as possible (using a nylon-type rope) or to leave
> it with a little play. I've always thought that tight was good because
> there
> will always be a little play given the nylon rope and that rope is stronger
> when there's tension.
>
Strong rope, I use braided mooring line, tied without slack. IMO any slack
allows the airplane to move. Each time it does it gets slammed to a stop
causing higher loads. If you have it snugged down it minimizes the movement.
Wheel chocks are also important to minimize movement.
A lot of the Cub guys put "splints" on the wing struts. The Cubs that I've seen
that have suffered damage in a wind have had the wing fail "down".
Several years ago high winds were predicted. A Cub owner did all he
could..spoilers, multiple ropes to each tiedown, splints on the struts, etc. It
appeared the airplane never moved during the windstorm...which was unfortunate
since his small shack next to the tiedown spot was blown over onto one wing
crushing it. Sometimes you get the bear.....
That is Fred Pott's site. He flew the bush in Alaska for years and
wrote the definitive book on bush flying. He's right about tieing
airplanes down. The problem is that if you do it his way, your
airplane will be fine until it is hit by the airplane tied down by
some other joker who doesn't follow basic instructions.
I've seen correctly tied down airplanes withstand 70 mph winds without
difficulty.
I've also been to an airport where the storm didn't hurt the tied down
airplanes but it collapsed the hangar and wrecked the ones inside.
Friend of mine had her Twin Comanche messed up when high winds pushed
the door of her Tee hangar in on it.
Overall, hangars are much better (especially in hail) but a carefully
tied down airplane can withstand a great deal.
All the best,
Rick
Chris W <chr...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<3EBFEE92...@cox.net>...
"(3) Tiedown ropes capable of resisting a pull of approximately 3,000 pounds
should be used. Manila ropes should be inspected periodically for mildew and
rot. Nylon or dacron tiedown ropes are preferred over manila ropes. The
objection to manila rope is that it shrinks when wet, is subject to mildew
and rot, and has considerably less tensile strength than either nylon or
dacron."
As a pilot, you will always get conflicting advice, so ignore all of it and
go to published sources. IMHO, many instructors just pass on Old Wives'
Tales without checking them out.
Bob Gardner
"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3ebff9dd$1...@127.0.0.1...
Bob Gardner
"Dale" <df...@NOSPAMak.net> wrote in message
news:dfalk-7FD560....@news.gci.net...
Oh well, sorry. I had nothing constructive to add.
"Rick Durden" <rdu...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:d9fecbe.03051...@posting.google.com...
Chris W wrote:
>
> I stumbled across this web site the other day http://www.fepco.com/ and
> I was reading this one section where he was talking about the proper way
> to tie down your plane. In there he says that a plane tied down
> correctly can with stand winds as high as 100 knots. I always figured
> if you plane wasn't in a good hangar, winds that strong would certainly
> cause significant damage. Any one care to comment on their experience
> with high winds and tied down aircraft.
About ten years ago, a "cyclonic winter storm with hurricane force winds"
(to quote the weather service) blew through here. Winds at the coast were
clocked at 120 knots (IIRC). Winds inland were over 100. My Cessna 150
was tied down with 3/8" nylon at the time. I went out to the airport before
the storm hit and added some 1/2" polypropylene I had on hand.
The poly probably wasn't necessary. Kupper didn't lose any aircraft.
Out of curiosity, I looked it up. The difference between a cyclonic winter
storm with hurricane force winds and a hurricane is that, by definition,
hurricanes are tropical storms and cannot occur in winter.
George Patterson
"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.
Marco
"Bob Gardner" <bob...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:srTva.824836$F1.103512@sccrnsc04...
Chris W wrote:
>
> Any one care to comment on their experience
> with high winds and tied down aircraft.
I was in Knoxville when a microburst hit the main airport. I had the
Maule secured with my own 3/8" nylon lines. The burst blew in the door
of the main hangar (about 3 stories tall) and blew the roof off from
inside. Every aircraft inside was totalled. Since the portion of the
roof that stayed in the same county wound up in the parking lot, a
number of cars were totalled as well. From the position of the landing
gear, it was obvious that my Maule had been lifted off the ground, but
the ropes held.
> I always figured
> if you plane wasn't in a good hangar, winds that strong would certainly
> cause significant damage. Any one care to comment on their experience
> with high winds and tied down aircraft.
One source of damage in high winds is from debris. It doesn't
matter how good the tie-down is, some debris from somewhere is
likely to damage the aircraft.
a not-so-funny story: a friend stores his aircraft in a big
hangar at OTIS in prep for a hurricane. The winds damage the
hangar roof, and then the winds toss around the contents of
the hangar (it's not funny what a tool chest can do to an airplane).
The aircraft left outside were undamaged.
--
Bob Noel
> Of course, you could turn it into the wind and practice your C172's VTOL
> capabilities.
That would be a hoot. Or stake it down and fly as if you are a winch
towed glider...never start the engine and get all that free flying
time...
> Oh well, sorry. I had nothing constructive to add.
Nonsense, it was a fun idea.
All the best,
Rick
The "leaving a little play" in the ropes bit stemmed from a brief
period of time, long ago when the types of ropes used would contract
when they got wet. Tie it down tightly so the airplane cannot rock or
move. Force equals mass times velocity, which is how a loosely tied
down airplane breaks free.
All the best,
Rick
"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message news:<3ebff9dd$1...@127.0.0.1>...
I guess in my mind its all relative to who's creating the 70 MPH
winds....God or me...
"Chris W" <chr...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EBFEE92...@cox.net...
Hey Rick, maybe you can write an article on disaster planning for aircraft
owners?
Marco
At BFM, which actually juts out into Mobile Bay, they have always just
crammed everything into the hangars with good results except for some hangar
rash. Now, the chickens*** FBO has announced they will no longer do this.
My airplane is parked in a sheltered tiedown. In future, I plan on flying it
out even for smaller storms - not so much out of fear it would be blown
away, but rather that it might be damaged by blowing debris.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
Mmm, well, it sort of matters which relative direction the 70 MPH winds are
coming from, doesn't it?
--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
"Dan Luke" <c172rgATbellsouthDOTnet> wrote in message
news:vc243md...@news.supernews.com...
Man! One good thunderstorm could wipe that place out! I'd leave ASAP.
Regards,
Marco
"Rick Durden" <rdu...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:d9fecbe.03051...@posting.google.com...
>Overall, hangars are much better (especially in hail) but a carefully
>tied down airplane can withstand a great deal.
I would add that the hangar needs to have been properly engineered and
constructed.
When I moved here a few years ago, I constructed my own hangar. It was
designed and constructed according to a building code applicable to this
area, which provided for resistance to a defined wind load and snow load.
The hangar would have been less expensive had I built it in a different
part of the country.
However, I do not believe that any of the other hangars at this airport had
any kind of engineering done -- and they appear to be under strength,
although none have blown over.
At many airports this may not be a problem. But clearly it is at some.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>"(3) Tiedown ropes capable of resisting a pull of approximately 3,000 pounds
>should be used. Manila ropes should be inspected periodically for mildew and
>rot. Nylon or dacron tiedown ropes are preferred over manila ropes. The
>objection to manila rope is that it shrinks when wet, is subject to mildew
>and rot, and has considerably less tensile strength than either nylon or
>dacron."
I would never use manila, polypropelene, dacron, or any other
non-stretch rope to tie up a boat, and I should think the same would
apply to an aircraft. Nylon stretches just enough to soften the blow.
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: web AT danford.net)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
The Air Force flies them out of harm's way.
Some boaters do this also (that is, they go to sea), but the smartest
sailor I know has this advice: "Tie the boat up the best way you can,
then go to a motel well inland."
Marco Leon wrote:
>
> Thanks Rick. Makes perfect sense. I took a look around my ramp and was
> astonished to see 70-80% of the planes tied down with enough slack to allow
> a noticable curve.
Take a look at my plane right after I tie it down, and the ropes will be
a straight line. Take a look at it a week later, and there will be a curve.
Marco Leon wrote:
>
> Here's another question...what does everyone do with their planes in the
> event of a hurricane??
My aircraft have ridden out two hurricanes tied down. The airports at which
they are/were based are both within 20 miles of the Raritan bay.
You've got a Comanche 400 parked OUTSIDE?
My God, the engine alone in that plane is worth, what $40K? (Heck, the
*crankshaft* is probably worth $16K!)
There oughta be a law against abusing a beautiful bird like that.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Comanche 400 parked in a tiedown slot (but not tied down). This is a
beautiful airplane, with nearly new paint. Unfortunately there ain't no
hangars available on the field. Sad but true. A T-hangar became available
a couple of weeks ago and was gone before anyone even knew about it. This
is real life in the NY Metro area. If you can get a hangar, expect to pay
close to $500 per month, or more.
--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
"Jay Honeck" <jjhonec...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:Jmdwa.828360$3D1.473538@sccrnsc01...
>My aircraft have ridden out two hurricanes tied down. The airports at which
>they are/were based are both within 20 miles of the Raritan bay.
Hurricanes cover thousands of square miles but the truly destructive
winds are concentrated very near the eye wall. A matter of a just a
few miles can make all the difference in how one fares "riding out" a
hurricane.
In August of '92, the anemometer at Tamiami Airport pegged at 127 mph
a full 20 minutes before hurricane Andrew's winds peaked. Andrew was
moving toward the west and its northern eye wall would pass a couple
of miles south of Tamiami Airport. Most of the aircraft at Tamiami
Airport were totaled. That includes aircraft both in and out of
hangars. Many hangars were leveled. The Weeks Air Museum was
destroyed. Here are two pictures showing some of the destruction at
Tamiami Airport,
http://www.airplanezone.com/NewsgroupPix/Andrew_Tamiami_1.jpg
http://www.airplanezone.com/NewsgroupPix/Andrew_Tamiami_2.jpg
Andrew was labeled a category 3 hurricane several hours before
landfall but was changed to category 4 just before landfall. My house
was about two miles south of Tamiami Airport. Andrew's northern eye
wall skirted my neighborhood. Despite the raging winds, I felt quite
safe in my house until the "twenty minutes of hell" hit. I pulled a
mattress from the bedroom and lay on the hallway floor with the
mattress over me. Several times during those 20 minutes, the already
raging winds would increase to ferocious levels for about 30 seconds
or so. During those times, I could feel the concrete house slab
vibrate -- not a comfortable feeling. Two of my neighbors lost their
roofs during those twenty minutes. My roof stayed on but my house and
contents sustained about $100,000 damage. A nearby trailer park was
leveled. My pool was filled with roof tiles and parts of trailers.
Concrete powerline poles two feet thick had snapped like twigs.
Things were even worse farther south.
Amazingly, just six miles north it was a completely different story.
There was little wind damage to be seen anywhere. Just a smattering
of broken tree branches. No powerline poles down. Just six miles
from the eye made all the difference.
Here's an interesting tree vs. 2x4 encounter from NOAA's hurricane
Andrew pictures,
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gifs/1992andrew8.gif
David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com
Marco
"David O"
[...]
"G.R. Patterson III" <grpp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3EC147EF...@comcast.net...
You want any stretching of the rope in high winds to be absorbed by the
elasticity of the rope. If the rope is too loose, the airplane will bounce
up and come to an abrupt stop as the slack in the rope is taken out. This
will probably break the rope, but it might damage the airplane. Either way
it is not good. If the rope is too tight, there will be no elasticity left
to absorb the shock of the wings being lifted up by the wind.
Tiedown chains and cables have very little elasticity and there is always
some slack after you have fastened them. These things will break in any high
wind and will damage your airplane. You should not even park next to an
airplane that is tied down with chains, since high winds will break those
chains and throw that airplane on top of yours.
People tie all kinds of braces and blocks to their wings and tails. I have
seen some rudders and vertical stabilizers severely damaged by people
running bolts between them to secure a rudder gust lock. Those bolts are
like little saws. It is better to face the airplane into the wind and let
the wind flow over the control surfaces just as it would in flight. Use the
control locks recommended for the airplane and in the POH.
You beat me to that. I flew several missions flying airplanes to safety,
leaving my family to face the typhoon alone! Consequently I have seen only
one typhoon in my entire life, but my wife and children have seen several.
> People tie all kinds of braces and blocks to their wings and tails. I have
> seen some rudders and vertical stabilizers severely damaged by people
> running bolts between them to secure a rudder gust lock. Those bolts are
> like little saws. It is better to face the airplane into the wind and let
> the wind flow over the control surfaces just as it would in flight. Use the
> control locks recommended for the airplane and in the POH.
If you can get it into the wind great, but if not IMO you need to put external
locks on the controls. The "factory" control locks allow play which means the
control surfaces bang around quite a bit even though locked. Also, the wind
pushing on the control surface puts loads on the control system that are not in
the normal direction. Twin Otters are known to have elevator bellcrank failure
because of this, there have been several crashes/incidents.
It is reasonably easy to use an external lock without causing any damage to the
airplane.
--
Dale L. Falk
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.
Marco Leon wrote:
>
> hmmm, mine always stay taut. What kind of rope are you using? I use 1" Nylon
> so it creates some nice tension.
At my home field, I use 1/2" nylon. I carry a set of 3/8" nylon ropes
for use at transient tiedowns. The problem may be that I have a tailwheel
aircraft. If the tail rope slacks off, the plane can roll forward and
slack the wing ropes.
David O wrote:
>
> In August of '92, the anemometer at Tamiami Airport pegged at 127 mph
> a full 20 minutes before hurricane Andrew's winds peaked.
Neither of the ones here got anywhere close to that.
>This
>will probably break the rope, but it might damage the airplane.
I doubt that 3/8 inch nylon in good condition would break before the
airplane does.
The only time I ever broke nylon line (it was half-inch) was pulling
down a tree with a tractor with a running start, when it turned out
that the tree trunk had hopped off the stump and dug six inches into
the soil.
For a given thickness, nylon is stronger than chain. (I have several
times broken my logging chain.)
>So is tying 2x4s to the wings the recommendation under hurricane-force
>winds?
I've prepared gliders at glider clubs to survive a couple of
hurricanes. A glider wing will produce a lot of lifting
force in a high wind. We used 2x4's lengthwise along the
wing, the 4" part stands vertically. The bottom is nailed
to a strip of 12" or wider 1/2" exterior grade plywood. The
bottom surface of the ply is covered with carpet, foam or
rubber to protect the wing. Straps go around the wing with
carpet at LE and TE edges. We also lifted the tail onto a
sawhorse to reduce the wings AOA. Ropes were tight.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.
I second this. There are airports about which have tiedown chains provided.
Don't even think of using them, even if you think the weather's not going
to get that bad. I did once, and the winds whilst I was staying at 00V
(Meadow Lake in CO) were much stronger than forecast, and did about $2000
damage to my aircraft - which would not have happened if using ropes.
The chains have no give, and you can't get them taut like a rope. The
strong wind gusts shifted the plane hard and tore the tailwheel off the
plane, broke control cables, and pulled the wing tiedown rings out.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
I looked at that site. All I can see are pictures of that hitch. Has
anybody a source where I can look up how it is made?
Stefan
>I looked at that site. All I can see are pictures of that hitch. Has
>anybody a source where I can look up how it is made?
Looking at the photo in his book, what I see is the usual tie-down
hitch (I don't know what it's called, but likely a yachtsman would
know) with a couple of bells & whistles. At the top, he's looped the
tie-down around the strut and through the tie-down ring. Then he's got
at least three tie-down hitches. (I use only two.) Finally, he appears
to have tied off the third (bottom?) hitch in some fashion, but the
photo is cropped so I can't tell exactly what he's done here.
I've been touting 3/8 inch nylon here, but upon studying the tie-downs
at the local airport I see that they are more like 1/2 inch. I tied
down this morning at a site I'd never used before, and I discovered
that if the line is weary enough, it's all but impossible to tie a
good tie-down hitch. I didn't futz with it because the Cub is going in
for its 100 hour today.