Baron Crash in Houston
M. K. Stinson
Kirk Stinson
DWH/Houston, Texas
Report Shows Pin To Blame For Crash
4:42 pm May 16, 2000
HOUSTON -- An initial report, on last week's deadly plane crash at Hobby
Airport, shows a locking pin may be to blame.
The Beechcraft Baron left Austin and stopped in Houston to fuel up and
pickup a passenger.
Shortly after take off, it crashed killing all 6 on board. Federal
Investigators said a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
impossible for the pilot to control the up and down direction of plane.
The NTSB investigation could take up to a year.
Wreckage from Friday's plane crash at hobby airport is on its way to a
location near Dallas for further analysis.
On board that Beechcraft Baron was Roger Fernandez and 5 friends who were
headed to fishing trip. All six died. The men had promised to be home by
Mother's Day. Fernandez served as CEO for the Galena Park ISD for the last 3
years.
Now family and friends are mourning his loss.
Craig Eichhorn Galena Park ISD spokesman , "we may replace the CEO but we
will never replace Roger Fernandez."
NTSB investigators have ruled out engine failure as the cause of the crash.
They are looking at possible mechanical problems. Was the plane overloaded,
or was pilot error a possible cause?
The other victims are: Pilot Kent Chatagnier, a 64-year-old resident of
Austin. Jim Pfluger, an architect from Austin. Ruben Fernandez, who was the
brother of Roger Fernandez. He had retired from the San Marcos school
district. Leroy Johnson of Corpus Christi was superintendent of the
Gregory-Portland Independent School District. Clay Gillis was business
manager for the same district and also lived in Corpus.
(Copyright 2000 by KHOU. All rights reserved.)
Wayne
"M. K. Stinson" <sti...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:8fsipl$sqj$1...@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com...
Dave
newssource (presumably a website). The KHOU (channel 11 in Houston, a CBS
affiliate) copyright is on the very last line of the original post.
I saw the newscast about the pin myself. My gut feeling is that 6 adults
with baggage and fuel were the culprit.
But like everyone else, Im just a spectator on the sidelines.
Frank, Henderson wrote:
> On 17 May 2000 02:58:45 GMT, cvbr...@aol.com (CVBreard) wrote:
>
> >>a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
> >>impossible for the pilot to control
>
> Where did you get this information? All newspaper and TV accounts I've
> heard discussed engine trouble on take-off.
>
> Frank Henderson
> E-Mail: Frankie66 at mindspring dot com
> Web site: http://frankie66.home.mindspring.com
Kirk Stinson
reports started to surface. I am not trying to stir anything up, just
thought I would post in case people are interested in the ongoing
investigation.
Link:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/breaking/554077
"When investigators began examining the wreckage on Saturday, they noticed
the pin was in the control yolk, Lupino said."
CVBreard
>impossible for the pilot to control
This is difficult for me to accept.
I 'know' this sort of thing happens, but it is incredible that one could go
through everything necessary to get airborne without at least a casual movement
of the control wheel, at least enough to realize that the control lock was in
place.
When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off roll, and the
controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream SOMETHING'S
WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
I've had only one of those SOMETHING'S WRONG! incidents on take-off, and didn't
hesitate to cut the power and abort. (Engine didn't come up to takeoff RPM.)
frank_henderson
>>a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
>>impossible for the pilot to control
Where did you get this information? All newspaper and TV accounts I've
Newps
>
> When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off roll, and the
> controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream SOMETHING'S
> WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
Are you saying a Baron would even get off the ground with the control
lock in place? Single Cessna's try to burrow underground with the
control lock in.
A.J.
similar incident and the cause was the pilots failure to remove the control
lock before takeoff. I don't know any thing about this accident other than
if it is the control pin, it's not the first time. Don't most takeoff
checklists include a control check? All the planes I've flown that has been
part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
"CVBreard" <cvbr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000516225845...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> >a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
> >impossible for the pilot to control
>
> This is difficult for me to accept.
>
> I 'know' this sort of thing happens, but it is incredible that one could
go
> through everything necessary to get airborne without at least a casual
movement
> of the control wheel, at least enough to realize that the control lock was
in
> place.
>
> When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off roll,
and the
> controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream SOMETHING'S
> WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
>
Peter Gottlieb
A.J. <A...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5jqU4.94265$vN5.13...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
> Wouldn't be the first time this happened. I recall reading a report of a
> similar incident and the cause was the pilots failure to remove the
control
> lock before takeoff. I don't know any thing about this accident other
than
> if it is the control pin, it's not the first time. Don't most takeoff
> checklists include a control check? All the planes I've flown that has
been
> part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
>
You mean that if it's not on the checklist you shouldn't check that?
It seems common sense to check for free and correct control movement _while
still on the ground_!!
Gumbo
On April 25, 1998, about 2230 Eastern Daylight Time, a Piper PA-
32-300, N15326, was substantially damaged during a collision
with terrain after takeoff from the New Bedford Airport, New
Bedford, Massachusetts. The certificated private pilot was
fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and
no flight plan had been filed for the personal flight conducted
under 14 CFR Part 91. According to a witness at the airport, the
pilot landed at the New Bedford Airport (EWB) the morning of the
accident. Another witness observed the airplane that evening
after it took off. The witness stated that the airplane departed
runway 5, and after liftoff, it "...went straight up in the air
like a acrobat..." The airplane then appeared to level off, turn
northwest, then northeast, followed by "a nose dive," and
descent to the ground. Examination of the wreckage by a Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) Inspector revealed that a control
locking device, with a locked pad lock, was installed on the
right hand flight control column. The pad lock key was found on
the key ring with the airplane's ignition key. The airplane's
ignition was off, and the ignition key had been removed.
Additionally, the pilot's shoulder harness was not locked in
position.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
slaton
Statesman - Daily Worker" reports that the locking pin "is used to keep the cockpit
from moving while the plane is on the ground". That is real, in depth, accurate,
reporting. Leo.
CVBreard
>lock in place? Single Cessna's try to burrow underground with the
>control lock in.
I have zero Baron time and don't know, but I agree about the single engine
Cessnas. The control lock holds the controls in a slight "nose down" attitude,
(i.e., your 'burrow underground") and I don't believe you could even get it
into the air.
Maybe with a V-8 engine block in the luggage compartment...I dunno.
mike regish
set to take-off trim.
mike
Newps wrote:
>
> Are you saying a Baron would even get off the ground with the control
> lock in place? Single Cessna's try to burrow underground with the
> control lock in.
--
mike regish
1953 TriPacer
N3428A
mike regish
through the original subject thread, it's in there someplace.
At first, somebody said a pin was missing, but the article says the control lock
may have been in place.
mike
Wayne wrote:
> where did you hear about the locking pin..... i haven't heard that one yet.
--
mike regish
have been some distraction and he resumed the checklist after the lock pin. Six
people can create a lot of distractions.
mike
Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
>
> You mean that if it's not on the checklist you shouldn't check that?
>
> It seems common sense to check for free and correct control movement _while
> still on the ground_!!
--
mike regish
mike
Gumbo wrote:
> . The pad lock key was found on
> the key ring with the airplane's ignition key. The airplane's
> ignition was off, and the ignition key had been removed.
> Additionally, the pilot's shoulder harness was not locked in
> position.
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
--
Ron Natalie
mike regish wrote:
>
> If you had enough nose up trim it would. If you Cessna tries to burrow in, you're not
> set to take-off trim.
>
What is trim going to do for you with the elevator pinned. The trim tab only really
has enough aerodynamic force to move the elevator. While it might be of use to control
the plane if the cables snapped, it isn't going to overpower the lock nor affect the pitch
in any reasaonable way.
Newps
mike regish wrote:
>
> If you had enough nose up trim it would. If you Cessna tries to burrow in, you're not
> set to take-off trim.
There's no amount of nose up trim that will get my 182 off the ground
with the control lock in. The elevator isn't that far off the forward
stop when the lock is in.
>
Dylan Smith
: Report Shows Pin To Blame For Crash
Pin to blame? More like PILOT to blame. It's sad that he took five friends
with him because he didn't check "Flight controls free and correct" if
this turns out to be the reason.
--
Dylan Smith, Houston TX.
Flying: http://www.icct.net/~dyls/flying.html
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
CVBreard
>you're not
>set to take-off trim.
Mike, I believe that if the control lock is in place on a Cessna 150/170 series
aircraft, full 'nose up' trim won't pitch the nose up.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, nose up trim displaces the trim
tab on the elevator DOWN in an attempt to raise the elevator into a more
nose-up position, actrually increasing the nose-down moment in that
circumstance (controls locked).
The pitch trim tab moves in the direction OPPOSITE to the intended result. Nose
up trim moves the trim tab DOWN, resulting in the elevators moving UP (nose
up).
The pitch trim tab only serves to reposition the primary control surface, the
elevator - it doesn't 'fly' the plane as such.
The "take-off" position of the pitch trim in a Cessna is nearly neutral. You
must exert positive nose-up pressure on the control wheel to pitch the nose up
into take-off attitude.
mike regish
I see the 150. It's a good idea, though. Are all planes set up that way? Apparently not since
there have been several incidents where planes have taken off with the lock in place.
mike
Ron Natalie wrote:
> mike regish wrote:
> >
> > If you had enough nose up trim it would. If you Cessna tries to burrow in, you're not
> > set to take-off trim.
> >
> What is trim going to do for you with the elevator pinned. The trim tab only really
> has enough aerodynamic force to move the elevator. While it might be of use to control
> the plane if the cables snapped, it isn't going to overpower the lock nor affect the pitch
> in any reasaonable way.
--
Matthew Majka
"The control lock, which is a long, tubular pin, is designed to keep
the cockpit from moving when it's on the ground," she said.
"Kirk Stinson" <NOSPAMk...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TUnU4.4530$P6.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these prelim
> reports started to surface. I am not trying to stir anything up, just
> thought I would post in case people are interested in the ongoing
> investigation.
>
> Link:
> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/breaking/554077
> "When investigators began examining the wreckage on Saturday, they noticed
> the pin was in the control yolk, Lupino said."
>
Dylan Smith
: Wouldn't be the first time this happened. I recall reading a report of a
: similar incident and the cause was the pilots failure to remove the control
: lock before takeoff. I don't know any thing about this accident other than
: if it is the control pin, it's not the first time. Don't most takeoff
: checklists include a control check? All the planes I've flown that has been
: part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
He was at an intermediate stop. He probably didn't do a full preflight
because he had already done one before leaving Austin. Then after running
up, since it wasn't the first flight of the day, he probably skipped
the "controls - free and correct" section of his checklist.
This sort of thing has happened before - there's even an "I Learned
about Flying from That" in Flying magazine where someone forgot to
remove the lock and lived to tell the tale. This is why I do a control
check even on intermediate fuel stops.
M. K. Stinson
have not been reported.
:\
Kirk Stinson
DWH/Houston, Texas
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>To put this story in the proper perspective: This morning's "Austin American
>Statesman - Daily Worker" reports that the locking pin "is used to keep the cockpit
>from moving while the plane is on the ground". That is real, in depth, accurate,
>reporting. Leo.
Not to go overboard in defending people who make a living from
writing, but all you have to do is add the word "controls" to
the sentence to have it make sense. It's not hard to drop a
word when typing under a deadline. You might even notice
that a few members of this newsgroup occasionally lose
control of their keyboards. ;o)
The (apparent) stupidity of the reporter isn't as fatal as
the (apparent) carelessness of the pilot. Both reporters
and pilots, considered as a group, pretty much resemble
human beings. (I am neither a reporter nor a pilot, but
I aspire to be a human being some day.)
Marty
George R. Patterson III
>
> Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these prelim
> reports started to surface.
It's very interesting to me that the NTSB investigator whom they are
quoting claims that the pin is "designed to keep the cockpit from moving
when it's on the ground." I'd be surprised if that's actually what she
said. Wonder what else they got wrong.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
George R. Patterson III
>
> Wouldn't be the first time this happened. I recall reading a report of a
> lock before takeoff.
The first prototype of the B-17 was lost this way.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
Ron Parsons
usenet...@alioth.net wrote:
>A.J. (A...@nospam.com) wrote:
>: Wouldn't be the first time this happened. I recall reading a report of
>: a
>: similar incident and the cause was the pilots failure to remove the
>: control
>: lock before takeoff. I don't know any thing about this accident other
>: than
>: if it is the control pin, it's not the first time. Don't most takeoff
>: checklists include a control check? All the planes I've flown that has
>: been
>: part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
>
>He was at an intermediate stop. He probably didn't do a full preflight
>because he had already done one before leaving Austin. Then after running
>up, since it wasn't the first flight of the day, he probably skipped
>the "controls - free and correct" section of his checklist.
>
>This sort of thing has happened before - there's even an "I Learned
>about Flying from That" in Flying magazine where someone forgot to
>remove the lock and lived to tell the tale. This is why I do a control
>check even on intermediate fuel stops.
One thought came to mind for me was that perhaps the pitch trim had been
left where it was on landing which is usually quite a bit nose up
compared to the takeoff position. Have some Deb time, but none in a
Baron.
--
Ron
John Clarke
CVBreard <cvbr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
>>impossible for the pilot to control
>
>
>I 'know' this sort of thing happens, but it is incredible that one could go
>through everything necessary to get airborne without at least a casual movement
>of the control wheel, at least enough to realize that the control lock was in
>place.
For example, one of the main runup checks is "controls, free AND correct"
(don't ever forget that correct part, or some mechanic will wire up the
ailerons backwards and you'll have some fun).
>When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off roll, and the
>controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream SOMETHING'S
>WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
It should be, but I guarantee you that some people (maybe even me from
time to time) would react by pulling back harder, at least at first.
It is very hard to change from "I must get this airplane into the air"
to "I must stay on the ground", particularly if you are already
anticipating sluggish performance (for example, if it was very hot,
high density altitude or you had a heavy load of passengers and fuel).
Who knows what happened in this case, but the idea that a control lock
might have caused this should make everyone be a bit more careful about
the runup checks and takeoff roll.
John
Roy Smith
> It is very hard to change from "I must get this airplane into the air"
> to "I must stay on the ground"
That is correct. Which is why you should never be thinking "I must get this
airplane into the air". Your attitude during the takeoff roll should be "let me
find an excuse to abort" and only if you can't find one should you commit to the
air.
Standard callouts on the takeoff roll should include "airspeed alive" and "green
arcs" (i.e. engine indications OK). Also, pick a point on the runway where, if
you're not in the air yet, you will abort. And lastly, don't be afraid to abort
for nothing more than that "something doesn't seem right" feeling. I would
think forgetting to pull the control lock would fall under this last catagory.
--
Roy Smith <r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu>
CP-ASEL-IA, CFI-ASE-IA
Ron Natalie
Dylan Smith wrote:
> This sort of thing has happened before - there's even an "I Learned
> about Flying from That" in Flying magazine where someone forgot to
> remove the lock and lived to tell the tale. This is why I do a control
> check even on intermediate fuel stops.
The book is full of control problems in addition to that. I seem to
recall one where the controls were difficult to move because someone
had left a garment bag draped over the horizontal stab. And I've certainly
encountered times when the right seat passenger has been in the way of
the yoke and remember hearing of a paraplegic passenger who managed to
get his feet to jam the rudders.
Nope, "controls free and correct" seems like a good idea on any takeoff.
Hell, I'll run the checklist even if it is an intermediate stop. There's
too many other stuff like setting the props, flaps, and trim that can be omitted.
Ron Natalie
Matthew Majka wrote:
>
> Here's a gem:
>
> "The control lock, which is a long, tubular pin, is designed to keep
> the cockpit from moving when it's on the ground," she said.
>
No wonder it crashed. The plane took off and the cockpit was left on the ground.
Bob Moore
>Don't most takeoff checklists include a control check? All the planes I've
>flown that has been part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
Since my retirement from airline flying in 1991, I have been flight
instructing, doing BFRs and IPCs. The use of checklists in General
Aviation is a joke! I tried Corporate Jet flying for a month, they
couldn't even find the checklist for the Mitsubishi Diamond. Seems
as if the use of checklists reflects poorly on one's ability or manhood.
Bob Moore
ATP B-727 B-707 B-720 L-188
CFIA CFII
PANAM (retired)
Naval Aviator 15753
tim jurik
"With the pin in place, they would not have had any control over how the
plane climbs or descends"
I think that the throttle controls altitude, although I suppose to keep it
simple for all of us dumb folks the explanation is point the nose down to go
down and up to go up.
"Matthew Majka" <matthe...@honeywell.com> wrote in message
news:w6yU4.18146$jZ3.2...@nuq-read.news.verio.net...
> Here's a gem:
>
> "The control lock, which is a long, tubular pin, is designed to keep
> the cockpit from moving when it's on the ground," she said.
>
>
> "Kirk Stinson" <NOSPAMk...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:TUnU4.4530$P6.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> > Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these prelim
Tina Marie
Kirk Stinson <NOSPAMk...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these prelim
>reports started to surface. I am not trying to stir anything up, just
>thought I would post in case people are interested in the ongoing
>investigation.
>
>Link:
>http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/breaking/554077
>"When investigators began examining the wreckage on Saturday, they noticed
>the pin was in the control yolk, Lupino said."
This isn't the first time someone's forgotten a control lock. Something
quite similar happened to a King Air in Orange, VA. Is there something
unusal about the Beech control lock that would make it more prone to
being left in?
http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/IAD/lnarr_97A023.htm
(One of the most sobering things I've ever read was a story that was in
Parachutist about this - it was called "The Day the King Air Crashed",
and it was just short descriptions of the crash from people who were
on the plane or on the ground pulling people out of the burning
wreckage).
Tina Marie
--
skydiver - PP-ASEL - N860SG \*\ An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes!
http://www.neosoft.com/~tina \*\ Here comes an 's'!" - Dave Barry
sridhar_...@hotmail.com
could be detected that the controls don't move when you manually try to
move them around for inspection. Then again in the runup, you check the
flight controls with extreme motions in all four directions.
Do people so blatantly skip the preflight and runup checks?
-Sridhar
In article <20000516225845...@ng-fz1.aol.com>,
cvbr...@aol.com (CVBreard) wrote:
> >a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
> >impossible for the pilot to control
>
> This is difficult for me to accept.
>
> I 'know' this sort of thing happens, but it is incredible that one
could go
> through everything necessary to get airborne without at least a casual
movement
> of the control wheel, at least enough to realize that the control lock
was in
> place.
>
> When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off
roll, and the
> controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream
SOMETHING'S
> WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
>
> I've had only one of those SOMETHING'S WRONG! incidents on take-off,
and didn't
> hesitate to cut the power and abort. (Engine didn't come up to takeoff
RPM.)
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Newps
Bob Moore wrote:
>
> "A.J." <A...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >Don't most takeoff checklists include a control check? All the planes I've
> >flown that has been part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
>
> Since my retirement from airline flying in 1991, I have been flight
> instructing, doing BFRs and IPCs. The use of checklists in General
> Aviation is a joke! I tried Corporate Jet flying for a month, they
> couldn't even find the checklist for the Mitsubishi Diamond. Seems
> as if the use of checklists reflects poorly on one's ability or manhood.
>
Or in simple planes like my 182, even matter, when VFR. There is
nothing on the checklist for my 182, that if missed, means anything.
Some of that has to do with my situation. I never switch tanks with the
fuel selector, there's no point in a Cessna, so the selector is never
off. Trim? I've taken off with full nose up and nose down to see what
it's like. Uncomfortable sure, but no big deal. I've had entire 30
minute flights with a baggage door popped open. Didn't even know til I
landed. Passenger door pops open, without the Lightspeed headset would
have never heard it. Lean over and close it in flight.
>
Newps
I would
> think forgetting to pull the control lock would fall under this last catagory.
You can't get the key in the ignition on a Cessna without moving the
control lock
Roy Smith
> There is nothing on the checklist for my 182, that if missed, means anything.
"control lock removed"?
"gear down and locked"?
"cowl plugs removed"?
"tiedown untied"?
Kernie Brashier
> Are you saying a Baron would even get off the ground with the control
>lock in place? Single Cessna's try to burrow underground with the
>control lock in.
My Baron needs a healthy pull on the yoke even with
6 degrees of trim. I don't even own the pin.
Kernie Brashier
>This sort of thing has happened before - there's even an "I Learned
>about Flying from That" in Flying magazine where someone forgot to
>remove the lock and lived to tell the tale. This is why I do a control
>check even on intermediate fuel stops.
>
fuel stop... I didn't even get one with my Baron.
Matthew Majka
If I may make a slight modification to your statement based on some
rental aircraft I've seen:
"You can't get the key in the ingnition on a Cessna without moving
the control lock, assuming it is the original control lock and not
some homemade wire hanger job..."
Ron Natalie
Tina Marie wrote:
>
> This isn't the first time someone's forgotten a control lock. Something
> quite similar happened to a King Air in Orange, VA. Is there something
> unusal about the Beech control lock that would make it more prone to
> being left in?
>
Unlike the Cessna one that has a big paddle attached that blocks the ignition.
According to the report you posted the King Air one is supposed to be attached
to a chain that also blocks the throttles from being advanced. The report
indicates and I've seen people (even on Cessna's) using a simple pin (optionally
with a remove before flight streamer) that could be easily overlooked (especialy
if you've got something on the yoke like a GPS mount or appropach plate clip).
Matthew Majka
Spelling error mine and not Newps'.
Dylan Smith
: This isn't the first time someone's forgotten a control lock. Something
: quite similar happened to a King Air in Orange, VA. Is there something
: unusal about the Beech control lock that would make it more prone to
: being left in?
I don't think so. IIRC, on the Musketeer we used to have in the club,
the control lock was obvious. However, I think it held the elevator position
more or less neutral. With the right amount of trim, I suspect it
would get airborne with the lock in place.
As has been pointed out, Cessna control locks keep the elevator in
a very much nose down position. Even with full nose-down trim (with
locked controls, the trim acts as an elevator), I don't think a C172
would get off the ground with the lock in. But I'm not about to try
it either!
Newps
Roy Smith wrote:
>
> Newps <scn...@home.com> wrote:
> > There is nothing on the checklist for my 182, that if missed, means anything.
>
> "control lock removed"?
If not then can't start it.
>
> "gear down and locked"?
Permanently.
>
> "cowl plugs removed"?
Never use 'em.
>
> "tiedown untied"?
Can't crash then, can I?
Ron Rapp
wrote:
>Also, jsut because it is on the checklist doesn't mean you can't miss it. Could
>have been some distraction and he resumed the checklist after the lock pin. Six
>people can create a lot of distractions.
Seems like he would have missed a number of checklist items, rather
than just one.
I have checklist item for removal of the control lock. Another for
checking the controls on the ground before engine start to listen for
any binding of the control cables or other weird sounds. Then on the
pre-flight inspection I physically move the control surfaces to check
for missing cotter pins, etc. Then in the runup I do a final, quick
"free and correct" check.
Obviously it's not necessary to do all these all the time. I thought
perhaps this guy had just been flying and had only landed briefly, and
so didn't do a thorough pre-flight inspection. But then, if he was
only on the ground for a while, why would the control lock have been
both in and locked with a key?
This kind of accident is a good reminder in favor of always taxiing
with the controls in the proper position for the prevalent wind
direction. That'll let you know if you've got a control lock
installed in a hurry. I supposed the guy in this accident could have
been taxiing on a zero wind day.... who knows.
--Ron
Lou Sanchez-Chopitea
Ron Natalie wrote:
> Dylan Smith wrote:
>
> > This sort of thing has happened before - there's even an "I Learned
> > about Flying from That" in Flying magazine where someone forgot to
> > remove the lock and lived to tell the tale. This is why I do a control
> > check even on intermediate fuel stops.
>
> The book is full of control problems in addition to that. I seem to
> recall one where the controls were difficult to move because someone
> had left a garment bag draped over the horizontal stab. And I've certainly
> encountered times when the right seat passenger has been in the way of
> the yoke and remember hearing of a paraplegic passenger who managed to
> get his feet to jam the rudders.
>
> Nope, "controls free and correct" seems like a good idea on any takeoff.
>
> Hell, I'll run the checklist even if it is an intermediate stop. There's
> too many other stuff like setting the props, flaps, and trim that can be omitted.
If I've shut down the engine, then I'll runup check (including "controls -
free and correct") before takeoff. I thought this was SOP. Are there any
reasons (engine wear maybe?) to NOT do this?
Cheers
Lou
--
Lou Sanchez-Chopitea EMail: lou.sanche...@xilinx.com
Senior Software Engineer SnailMail: 2100 Logic Drive
SpeakMail: (408) 879-5059 San Jose, CA 95124
FaxMail: (408) 377-3259 #include <disclaimer.h>
Dylan Smith
: In article <8fuahv$f42$1...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, usenet...@alioth.net wrote:
: >This sort of thing has happened before - there's even an "I Learned
: >about Flying from That" in Flying magazine where someone forgot to
: >remove the lock and lived to tell the tale. This is why I do a control
: >check even on intermediate fuel stops.
: Why would someone put the control lock in on an intermediate
: fuel stop... I didn't even get one with my Baron.
Habit?
I usually don't put control locks in at intermediate stops - but if the
weather is gusty I'll put them in. In the C140, that would be the
seatbelt through the yoke.
Ron Natalie
Lou Sanchez-Chopitea wrote:
>
> If I've shut down the engine, then I'll runup check (including "controls -
> free and correct") before takeoff. I thought this was SOP. Are there any
> reasons (engine wear maybe?) to NOT do this?
>
Not wear so much as heating. On a hot day, I can easily push the temps up into
the red line if the engine is already hot. The thing wasn't designed to run at
full power standing still. But even if I don't do the power checks, as I said,
still run the checklist. The trim, fuel pump, prop, strobes, etc... will all
most likely be in the WRONG configuration if I don't.
Matthew Majka
news:8fuh5b$eti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> It is difficult for me to accept too. During the preflight itself, it
> could be detected that the controls don't move when you manually try to
> move them around for inspection. Then again in the runup, you check the
> flight controls with extreme motions in all four directions.
>
> Do people so blatantly skip the preflight and runup checks?
Do you walk around the airplane and move the control surfaces
manually every time even if you only made a 20-30 minute stop
for fuel? Be honest. The run up check is a little harder for me
to accept. Unless you taxi, runup, and position without even
touching the yoke I would think the control lock would be noticed,
but I wasn't there...
Dave MacLearn
> For example, one of the main runup checks is "controls, free AND correct"
> (don't ever forget that correct part, or some mechanic will wire up the
> ailerons backwards and you'll have some fun).
I was told about a 172 pilot who was killed due to control malfunction.
Apparantly, he did the runup and actually did the "controls free and
correct" he turned the yoke left, saw the right aileron come down, turned
it right, and saw the left one come down. No problem. However, it
turned out /both/ ailerons were coming down when he turned the yoke in
/either/ direction.
I now check both ailerons when I check for free and correct movement.
--
dave (at) climber.net
PP-ASEL
"Push to test." <click> "Release to detonate."
sridhar_...@hotmail.com
that the control lock has been removed. Why, as an additional point, for
proper taxiing procedure, you would need to atleast move the ailerons
for wind, if not the elevator. That would be a dead give-away.
I wasn't there either, but hearing about other accidents which involved
control lock not being removed, makes me wonder ...
And here we are, taught to be overly obsessive about checklist usage,
and proper preflighting....
-Sridhar
In article <A0BU4.18160$jZ3.2...@nuq-read.news.verio.net>,
Dave MacLearn
Ok, ok, let me try!
"Fuel quantity"?
"Oil pressure/temperature"?
Um... Hrm... Ok, I know...
"Pilot sober"?
;-)
HLAviation
>> the key ring with the airplane's ignition key. The airplane's
>> ignition was off, and the ignition key had been removed.
>> Additionally, the pilot's shoulder harness was not locked in
>> position.
>>
>Wow. He was trying to get the thing out. Jeez.
>
well hell, wouldnt you? although I probably wouldn't shut the ignition off,
But then one of my first checks is always "Free and Correct" after having done
a return to service flight where the ailerons had been rigged backwards.
John J. Miller
<8fugni$16fe$1...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>:
>
>As has been pointed out, Cessna control locks keep the elevator in
>a very much nose down position. Even with full nose-down trim (with
>locked controls, the trim acts as an elevator), I don't think a C172
>would get off the ground with the lock in. But I'm not about to try
>it either!
>
I'll bet JK would say he'd do it - for the right amount of money that is.
John J. Miller
jo...@mcdata.com
Dale
<A...@nospam.com> wrote:
It happens more than we'd like to think. Even the prototype B-17 was lost
because the contols were locked on takeoff.
> Wouldn't be the first time this happened. I recall reading a report of a
> similar incident and the cause was the pilots failure to remove the control
> lock before takeoff. I don't know any thing about this accident other than
> if it is the control pin, it's not the first time. Don't most takeoff
> checklists include a control check? All the planes I've flown that has been
> part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
--
Dale L. Falk
Cessna 182A
N5912B
Dale
I fly from gravel strips a lot. Someone once told me to check controls as I
start the roll in case a rock was blown up into the elevator hingeline. I don't
know if that would matter, but I'm not gonna find out the hard way. I wipe the
cockpit out with the yoke as I take the runway.
> Nope, "controls free and correct" seems like a good idea on any takeoff.
--
Dale
wrote:
Mike,
On most single-engine Cessna's the elevator is slightly down when the control
lock is in....giving down elevator. The trim setting will not matter a great
deal since the elevator is unable to move to the trim position.
The 180, early 182 and the 185 have a trimming stablizer. If you're trimmed
nose up you can bet your butt it'll fly.
> If you had enough nose up trim it would. If you Cessna tries to burrow in,
> you're not
> set to take-off trim.
Dale
Don't bet your life on it. A 206 locks in the same position as your 182. A 206
departed Anchorage several years ago with a nail as a control lock. Six
fatalities.
> There's no amount of nose up trim that will get my 182 off the ground
> with the control lock in. The elevator isn't that far off the forward
> stop when the lock is in.
mike regish
occasionally.
mike
Newps wrote:
>
> I would
> > think forgetting to pull the control lock would fall under this last catagory.
>
> You can't get the key in the ignition on a Cessna without moving the
> control lock
--
mike regish
1953 TriPacer
N3428A
mike regish
mike
Kernie Brashier wrote:
> >
> Why would someone put the control lock in on an intermediate
> fuel stop... I didn't even get one with my Baron.
--
mike regish
to get the key-out of the ignition no less-undo your belt and try to unlock a
padlock all while the plane is heading for the ground at low altitude. Then
knowing that even if you did that, you had to get the plane back under control.
I think most people would have just resigned their fate.
mike
HLAviation wrote:
--
Ron Natalie
mike regish wrote:
>
> Maybe he used the checklist when he shut down.
>
> mike
>
> Kernie Brashier wrote:
>
> > >
> > Why would someone put the control lock in on an intermediate
> > fuel stop... I didn't even get one with my Baron.
>
And why a padlocked one? Maybe he's trying to keep the plane
from being stolen. I guess Barons might be pretty hot commodities
down closer to the border.
Patrick Whalen
tim jurik <t...@opencagesoftware.com> wrote in message
news:8fueps$blc$1...@news2.symantec.com...
> Here's another:
>
> "With the pin in place, they would not have had any control over how the
> plane climbs or descends"
>
> I think that the throttle controls altitude, although I suppose to keep it
> simple for all of us dumb folks the explanation is point the nose down to
go
> down and up to go up.
>
>
> "Matthew Majka" <matthe...@honeywell.com> wrote in message
> news:w6yU4.18146$jZ3.2...@nuq-read.news.verio.net...
> > Here's a gem:
> >
> > "The control lock, which is a long, tubular pin, is designed to keep
> > the cockpit from moving when it's on the ground," she said.
> >
> >
> > "Kirk Stinson" <NOSPAMk...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:TUnU4.4530$P6.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> > > Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these prelim
> > > reports started to surface. I am not trying to stir anything up, just
> > > thought I would post in case people are interested in the ongoing
> > > investigation.
> > >
> > > Link:
> > > http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/breaking/554077
> > > "When investigators began examining the wreckage on Saturday, they
> noticed
> > > the pin was in the control yolk, Lupino said."
> > >
> > > > where did you hear about the locking pin..... i haven't heard that
one
> > > yet.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
A.J.
> : Why would someone put the control lock in on an intermediate
> : fuel stop... I didn't even get one with my Baron.
>
mike regish
the reason for putting the control lock in for an intermediate fuel
stop.
mike
Ron Natalie wrote:
> mike regish wrote:
> >
> > Maybe he used the checklist when he shut down.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > Kernie Brashier wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > Why would someone put the control lock in on an intermediate
> > > fuel stop... I didn't even get one with my Baron.
> >
>
> And why a padlocked one? Maybe he's trying to keep the plane
> from being stolen. I guess Barons might be pretty hot commodities
> down closer to the border.
--
slaton
moving. The pin also keeps the yoke from moving but the purpose is to keep the outside
stuff from flopping about in the wind. the reporter is wrong on every count, an
unblimished record. Leo
Martin X. Moleski, SJ wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2000 08:11:18 -0700, slaton <sla...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >To put this story in the proper perspective: This morning's "Austin American
> >Statesman - Daily Worker" reports that the locking pin "is used to keep the cockpit
> >from moving while the plane is on the ground". That is real, in depth, accurate,
> >reporting. Leo.
>
> Not to go overboard in defending people who make a living from
> writing, but all you have to do is add the word "controls" to
> the sentence to have it make sense. It's not hard to drop a
> word when typing under a deadline. You might even notice
> that a few members of this newsgroup occasionally lose
> control of their keyboards. ;o)
>
> The (apparent) stupidity of the reporter isn't as fatal as
> the (apparent) carelessness of the pilot. Both reporters
> and pilots, considered as a group, pretty much resemble
> human beings. (I am neither a reporter nor a pilot, but
> I aspire to be a human being some day.)
>
> Marty
touch...@my-deja.com
took off with the control lock on, realized it, couldn't get the lock
out, and trimmed it into the ground. Not sure whether I am remembering
all this right, but I do remember the discussion about trim working in
reverse if the elevator is truly 'stuck'.
Touch
> Mike, I believe that if the control lock is in place on a Cessna
150/170 series
> aircraft, full 'nose up' trim won't pitch the nose up.
>
> As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, nose up trim
displaces the trim
> tab on the elevator DOWN in an attempt to raise the elevator into a
more
> nose-up position, actrually increasing the nose-down moment in that
> circumstance (controls locked).
>
> The pitch trim tab moves in the direction OPPOSITE to the intended
result. Nose
> up trim moves the trim tab DOWN, resulting in the elevators moving UP
(nose
> up).
>
> The pitch trim tab only serves to reposition the primary control
surface, the
> elevator - it doesn't 'fly' the plane as such.
>
> The "take-off" position of the pitch trim in a Cessna is nearly
neutral. You
> must exert positive nose-up pressure on the control wheel to pitch
the nose up
> into take-off attitude.
Patrick Whalen
http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/MIA/98A055.htm
Tina Marie <ti...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote in message
news:A120FD1B98C3F773.5F1AF292...@lp.airnews.net...
> In article <TUnU4.4530$P6.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
> Kirk Stinson <NOSPAMk...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> >Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these prelim
> >reports started to surface. I am not trying to stir anything up, just
> >thought I would post in case people are interested in the ongoing
> >investigation.
> >
> >Link:
> >http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/breaking/554077
> >"When investigators began examining the wreckage on Saturday, they
noticed
> >the pin was in the control yolk, Lupino said."
>
> This isn't the first time someone's forgotten a control lock. Something
> quite similar happened to a King Air in Orange, VA. Is there something
> unusal about the Beech control lock that would make it more prone to
> being left in?
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/IAD/lnarr_97A023.htm
>
> (One of the most sobering things I've ever read was a story that was in
> Parachutist about this - it was called "The Day the King Air Crashed",
> and it was just short descriptions of the crash from people who were
> on the plane or on the ground pulling people out of the burning
> wreckage).
>
> Tina Marie
> --
> skydiver - PP-ASEL - N860SG \*\ An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes!
> http://www.neosoft.com/~tina \*\ Here comes an 's'!" - Dave Barry
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>Marty: Just for the record - the pin is used to keep the ailerons and elevators from
>moving. The pin also keeps the yoke from moving but the purpose is to keep the outside
>stuff from flopping about in the wind. the reporter is wrong on every count, an
>unblimished record. Leo
Leo,
I love pilots and pilots' stories.
I love rec.aviation.piloting.
I do a lot of typing.
I know how easy it is to make mistakes typing.
If you don't like my emendation "cockpit controls" (dropped word),
then all it takes to make sense is to substitute "controls" for
"cockpit."
I'm not denying that the reporter (or the person interviewed) may
have made a mistake. I'm just saying that such mistakes are
understandable and should be accepted as part of the humanity
we all share.
By the way, there are two grammatical errors and one misspelling in
your last sentence. Stuff happens, eh? ;o)
Marty
touch...@my-deja.com
walkaround. One goes up, the other goes down.
Touch
In article <MPG.138c7fe3e...@news1.gvcl1.bc.wave.home.com>,
Dave MacLearn <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
> In a noble use of bandwidth, John Clarke said:
> > For example, one of the main runup checks is "controls, free AND
correct"
> > (don't ever forget that correct part, or some mechanic will wire up
the
> > ailerons backwards and you'll have some fun).
>
> I was told about a 172 pilot who was killed due to control
malfunction.
> Apparantly, he did the runup and actually did the "controls free and
> correct" he turned the yoke left, saw the right aileron come down,
turned
> it right, and saw the left one come down. No problem. However, it
> turned out /both/ ailerons were coming down when he turned the yoke
in
> /either/ direction.
>
> I now check both ailerons when I check for free and correct movement.
>
> --
> dave (at) climber.net
> PP-ASEL
>
> "Push to test." <click> "Release to detonate."
>
Dan Larsen
> That is correct. Which is why you should never be thinking "I must
> get this airplane into the air". Your attitude during the takeoff
> roll should be "let me find an excuse to abort" and only if you can't
> find one should you commit to the air.
I've also heard those musings from a friend of mine in regard to landing.
"Let me find an excuse to go around..." I use that judiciously, even more
so at my home airport where there's plenty of trees.
> Standard callouts on the takeoff roll should include "airspeed alive"
> and "green arcs" (i.e. engine indications OK). Also, pick a point on
> the runway where, if you're not in the air yet, you will abort. And
> lastly, don't be afraid to abort for nothing more than that "something
> doesn't seem right" feeling. I would think forgetting to pull the
> control lock would fall under this last catagory.
I don't mean to pick nits here, but how can you really pick a spot to
abort at? I can understand if you've eaten up 3000' and still not
airborne in a C172, but when you're flying at small airports and you miss
the threshhold by 100' on a normal rollout, you're not going to say "If
I'm not airborne before the threshhold, I'm going to abort."
--Dan
Newps
Dale wrote:
>
> In article <3922A024...@mediaone.net>, mike regish <mre...@mediaone.net>
> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> On most single-engine Cessna's the elevator is slightly down when the control
> lock is in....giving down elevator. The trim setting will not matter a great
> deal since the elevator is unable to move to the trim position.
>
> The 180, early 182 and the 185 have a trimming stablizer. If you're trimmed
> nose up you can bet your butt it'll fly.
The newer ones, mines a 67, must have more nose down elevator with the
lock in. No way, no how, will it fly.
Jim Sokoloff
> Or in simple planes like my 182, even matter, when VFR. There is
> nothing on the checklist for my 182, that if missed, means anything.
Fuel and oil level? Mag check? Cowl flaps, primer in and locked?
I can think of a lot of ways to get your airplane to "not work so
good" that are on that checklist...
---Jim
Jim Sokoloff
>
> Yes, what I was saying was that a combination of these two would ensure
> that the control lock has been removed. Why, as an additional point, for
> proper taxiing procedure, you would need to atleast move the ailerons
> for wind, if not the elevator. That would be a dead give-away.
The winc was listed as 11 knots in the FAA accident report. Hardly a
level at which you MUST (or perhaps even ought to) use the
(aerodynamic) controls while taxiing.
---Jim
Jim Kendall
Ron Natalie wrote:
> ..snip...
> What is trim going to do for you with the elevator pinned. The trim tab only really
> has enough aerodynamic force to move the elevator. While it might be of use to control
> the plane if the cables snapped, it isn't going to overpower the lock nor affect the pitch
> in any reasaonable way.
That's not true.
I have a '67 C150
Now, I doubt if it would get off teh ground this way,
but, once airborne with the gust lock IN, my little elevator trim
has LOTS of effect.
Try it.
Jim
Jim Kendall
Like the ammeter waving wildly, or teh vacuum not being quite right,
to say nothing of engine oil pressure.....oops, you have a CS prop...
do you watch you oil pressure when you ....oops again, sorry,
you probably don't do the prop check either....
do you set your DG/AI ?
Mine's getting a little old, I have to move it after a shutdown/re-start,
so it gives me a reasonn to make sure my DG and compass are pointing in the same
direction!
Maybe none of this stuff, if it failed would kill you, but you could save some
maintenance money by looking at it and knowing what it SHOULD be doing!
It's really a problem with renters, cuz they're paying for the time to check the
airplane!
Jim
Newps wrote:
> Bob Moore wrote:
> >
> > "A.J." <A...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >Don't most takeoff checklists include a control check? All the planes I've
> > >flown that has been part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
> >
> > Since my retirement from airline flying in 1991, I have been flight
> > instructing, doing BFRs and IPCs. The use of checklists in General
> > Aviation is a joke! I tried Corporate Jet flying for a month, they
> > couldn't even find the checklist for the Mitsubishi Diamond. Seems
> > as if the use of checklists reflects poorly on one's ability or manhood.
> >
> Or in simple planes like my 182, even matter, when VFR. There is
> nothing on the checklist for my 182, that if missed, means anything.
> Some of that has to do with my situation. I never switch tanks with the
> fuel selector, there's no point in a Cessna, so the selector is never
> off. Trim? I've taken off with full nose up and nose down to see what
> it's like. Uncomfortable sure, but no big deal. I've had entire 30
> minute flights with a baggage door popped open. Didn't even know til I
> landed. Passenger door pops open, without the Lightspeed headset would
> have never heard it. Lean over and close it in flight.
>
> >
Jim Kendall
Dan Larsen wrote:
> ...snip...
> I don't mean to pick nits here, but how can you really pick a spot to
> abort at? I can understand if you've eaten up 3000' and still not
> airborne in a C172, but when you're flying at small airports and you miss
> the threshhold by 100' on a normal rollout, you're not going to say "If
> I'm not airborne before the threshhold, I'm going to abort."
>
> --Dan
Well.....I do.
I was going in & out of a grass field regularly...with trees at the end,
I have an idea in my head, with winds/temp, etc, where I should be off the
ground.
If not, then somethings wrong.
A couple of times it was me......but once it was a mag about to die.
it Did Die....about 30 minutyes of running later trying to figure out what the
miss was...
thank goodness it had its cowl off and was tied down rather than attempting to
take off and facingg those
trees!
just my 2 cents.
Jim Kendall
If you change the sentence FROM
"is used to keep the cockpit from moving while the plane is on the ground".
TO:
"is used to keep the cockpit controls from moving while the plane is on the ground".
the sentence does make sense.
The rest of your statement is true, also:
"The pin also keeps the yoke from moving but the purpose is to keep the outside
stuff from flopping about in the wind. "
But that's because they're connected! (duh)
You'll also see those little thingies (control surface locks) that go between the
gaps in elevators, ailerons and rudders, they are on the outside, but by golly
the "cockpit controls" won't move either.....unless it's fly-by-wire or hydraulic, then
they may!
Jim
slaton wrote:
> Marty: Just for the record - the pin is used to keep the ailerons and elevators from
> moving. The pin also keeps the yoke from moving but the purpose is to keep the outside
> stuff from flopping about in the wind. the reporter is wrong on every count, an
> unblimished record. Leo
>
Jim Kendall
I'll use a little aileron and a lot of elevator and rudder.....
the cables need to get their exercise too!
k8...@pop3.concentric.net
After reading this thread I'm going to get a safety pilot to help me, take my plane
to altitude, slow to a near stall and then accellerate as though taking off, while
the safety pilot immobilizes the control yoke and see if control is possible...
( ya gotta find something new to do after flying for a $100 hamburger gets dull :)
My thinking is:
1. That the report suggested that the plane ballooned off the ground under full
power, thus reduced power should reduce the angle of climb and keep the plane from
looping or pulling up into a stall...
2. Rudder control will lift a wing and keep the plane from rolling over or going
into a tight spiral...
A demo I have done numerous times for newer pilots is to get the plane trimmed in
level flight and then fold my arms and fly along with rudders only... You can fly
across country this way if you wish...
3. A twin has differential power available for increased directional control, which
is a plus...
It is possible that he might have been able to continue to climb away and then deal
with the control lock after getting sufficient altitude... All you flamers can
leave your weapons on pilot light only, I'm speculating and attempting to gather
information... If it turns out to be possible to control the plane with the locking
pin in place, then we as a group should know it and practice for this eventuality...
Denny
mike regish wrote:
k8...@pop3.concentric.net
Denny
Bob Moore
>That's not true. I have a '67 C150
>Now, I doubt if it would get off teh ground this way,
>but, once airborne with the gust lock IN, my little elevator trim
>has LOTS of effect.
>Try it.
Yes it does!........ but backwards!
Bob Moore
ATP CFIA CFII
Newps
list. As for the oil pressure wobble when the prop is cycled nobody
ever mentioned that to me. Last time I flew I checked it when I cycled
the prop and the pressure does drop slightly. Of course, it would have
to so I don't see any reason to check the gauge for it. I already
checked the gauge on startup. I occasionally forget about the DG since
99% of my flying is VFR, I don't need most of those instruments anyway.
Julio
Unfortunately it looks like the pilot suffered a heart attack
during the incident/accident. That might have prevented him from
doing any of the possible actions you mention. See story below:
Pilot had heart attack just before plane crash
By JERRY URBAN
Copyright 2000 Houston Chronicle
The pilot of an airplane that crashed at Hobby Airport, killing
him and five other people, apparently had a heart attack after
realizing the craft was in trouble.
Harry Noe, an aviation attorney and regional vice president of
the NTSB Bar Association, said Wednesday he confirmed that the
medical examiner's office determined that pilot Kent John
Chatagnier, 64, of Austin, suffered a heart attack.
Harris County Medical Examiner's Office officials contacted
Wednesday night said they were not authorized to comment.
Noe suspects that a "mental lapse" by Chatagnier to remove a
"gust-lock pin" from the plane's control column during preflight
checks caused the crash Friday.
"I suspect the predicament he found himself in at 200-300 feet
gave him the heart attack," said Noe. "Can you imagine the
amazement when he realized the predicament he was in?"
Noe, himself a pilot, said it's "reasonably common" for pilots
to have heart attacks when faced with life-threatening
situations.
He added that the medical examiner's office could not determine
whether the heart attack or the impact of the crash killed
Chatagnier.
National Transportation Safety Board investigators found the
gust-lock pin still in place after the crash. Pilots place the
pin in a parked plane's control column to prevent strong winds
from moving a parked craft's ailerons and elevators.
Investigators said the pilot of the Beechcraft Baron 55 could
not control the plane once airborne with the pin still in place.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/555510
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k8...@pop3.concentric.net
heart attack...
Denny
mike regish
best cure. I was thinking the same thing about reducing power, but there are way too
many factors to compute to make a valid guess. Maybe your test will fill in enough
variables, although it is too late for the pilot of that plane. Could save somebody
though.
Be careful.
mike
P.S. You haven't tried the $100 phone call yet, have you?
William L. Bahn
normally aspirated engines). ;-P
OK - time for someone to point out how the throttle really controls the
position of one end of a steel wire.
Patrick Whalen wrote in message <39230...@pigeon.jmu.edu>...
>Actually, the throttle controls the manifold pressure.
>
>
>tim jurik <t...@opencagesoftware.com> wrote in message
>news:8fueps$blc$1...@news2.symantec.com...
>> Here's another:
>>
>> "With the pin in place, they would not have had any control over how the
>> plane climbs or descends"
>>
>> I think that the throttle controls altitude, although I suppose to keep
it
>> simple for all of us dumb folks the explanation is point the nose down to
>go
>> down and up to go up.
>>
>>
>> "Matthew Majka" <matthe...@honeywell.com> wrote in message
>> news:w6yU4.18146$jZ3.2...@nuq-read.news.verio.net...
>> > Here's a gem:
>> >
>> > "The control lock, which is a long, tubular pin, is designed to keep
>> > the cockpit from moving when it's on the ground," she said.
>> >
>> >
>> > "Kirk Stinson" <NOSPAMk...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
>> > news:TUnU4.4530$P6.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
>> > > Houston Chronicle.....truthfully I was quite shocked when these
prelim
>> > > reports started to surface. I am not trying to stir anything up, just
>> > > thought I would post in case people are interested in the ongoing
>> > > investigation.
>> > >
>> > > Link:
>> > > http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/breaking/554077
>> > > "When investigators began examining the wreckage on Saturday, they
>> noticed
>> > > the pin was in the control yolk, Lupino said."
>> > >
Ron Rapp
>Noe, himself a pilot, said it's "reasonably common" for pilots
>to have heart attacks when faced with life-threatening
>situations.
Yeah, right.
--Ron
William L. Bahn
to use a control lock. The poor assumption that we tend to make is that the
pilot involved was following ANY checklist - at least on that flight and
probably as a general matter of course.
I have often told people that they have a great deal of control over their
odds of dying on a particular day in a particular way. Everyone's odds of
dying in a car crash are not the same - if you follow just six simple rules,
drastically reduce your risk of dying this way:
1) Never drive drunk.
2) Never drive sleepy.
3) Always wear your seat belt.
4) Change lanes only as needed, not as wanted.
5) Always follow at least two, preferably three, seconds behind the car in
front.
6) Avoid riding as a passenger with a violator of any of the above rules.
For flying, my list has been:
1) Always fly with full tanks (i.e., half tanks is empty tanks)
2) Avoid flying near thunderstorms.
3) Avoid flight in high mountainous terrain, especially if not properly
trained.
4) Avoid flying with anyone that violates the above rules.
I never even thought to put, probably as number one, to always use and abide
by the checklists. That just seemed obvious.
Does anyone know of anyplace where a (proper) statistical analysis of
accidents (either car or airplane) has been done to try to break out and
quantify these risk factors?
Also, please feel free to offer other items that should be on there. I am
interested in factors that are easily within the pilot's (or passenger's)
control and that are easily or routinely violated and that are major
contributors to accidents.
A.J. wrote in message
<5jqU4.94265$vN5.13...@news-east.usenetserver.com>...
>Wouldn't be the first time this happened. I recall reading a report of a
>similar incident and the cause was the pilots failure to remove the control
>lock before takeoff. I don't know any thing about this accident other than
>if it is the control pin, it's not the first time. Don't most takeoff
>checklists include a control check? All the planes I've flown that has
been
>part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
>
>
>
>"CVBreard" <cvbr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20000516225845...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
>> >a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
>> >impossible for the pilot to control
>>
>> This is difficult for me to accept.
>>
>> I 'know' this sort of thing happens, but it is incredible that one could
>go
>> through everything necessary to get airborne without at least a casual
>movement
>> of the control wheel, at least enough to realize that the control lock
was
>in
>> place.
>>
>> When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off roll,
>and the
>> controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream SOMETHING'S
>> WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
>>
>> I've had only one of those SOMETHING'S WRONG! incidents on take-off, and
>didn't
>> hesitate to cut the power and abort. (Engine didn't come up to takeoff
>RPM.)
>
>
>
William L. Bahn
all. The trim tab primarily operates by forcing the control surface to
move - it's not the aerodynamic forces on the tab itself causing the
pitching bias. With the control wheel lock installed, the trim tab probably
wouldn't have much of a noticeable effect. If fact, I think its role would
be reversed - nose up trim would result in a (slight) nose down moment
because the tab is trying to force the elevator (and hence tail with a lock
installed) up.
mike regish wrote in message <3922A024...@mediaone.net>...
>If you had enough nose up trim it would. If you Cessna tries to burrow in,
you're not
>set to take-off trim.
>
>mike
>
>Newps wrote:
>
>>
>> Are you saying a Baron would even get off the ground with the control
>> lock in place? Single Cessna's try to burrow underground with the
>> control lock in.
William L. Bahn
Newps wrote in message <3922C340...@home.com>...
I've
>> >flown that has been part of the preflight and the takeoff checklist.
>>
>> instructing, doing BFRs and IPCs. The use of checklists in General
>> Aviation is a joke! I tried Corporate Jet flying for a month, they
>> couldn't even find the checklist for the Mitsubishi Diamond. Seems
>> as if the use of checklists reflects poorly on one's ability or manhood.
>>
> Or in simple planes like my 182, even matter, when VFR. There is
>nothing on the checklist for my 182, that if missed, means anything.
Really? Nothing? So...
The "Controls Free and Correct" check won't matter if missed?
The "Oil Pressure in the Green" check won't matter if missed?
The "Check Oil Quantity" check won't matter if missed?
The "Check air intake free of obstructions" check won't matter if missed?
The "Seats secure" check won't matter if missed? (would you like your seat
to slide all the way aft as you rotate for a short field take off?)
>Some of that has to do with my situation. I never switch tanks with the
>fuel selector, there's no point in a Cessna, so the selector is never
>off.
And, since YOU never switch tanks, you never check that they are set to both
and therefore one of these days you are likely to get the plane back from
maintenance where they DID move the selector valve for one of a host of
possible reasons - perhaps so that the tanks didn't crossfeed as they were
refueling them - and guess what? A couple hours into your flight - cough,
cough, sputter, sputter. And chances are probably pretty good that, since
you have largely forgotten that the fuel selector valve even exists, you
will not think to check it even then. I have been at a couple of crash sites
where the cause was engine failure due to fuel starvation and the selected
tank was empty and the other tank was full.
>Trim? I've taken off with full nose up and nose down to see what
>it's like. Uncomfortable sure, but no big deal. I've had entire 30
>minute flights with a baggage door popped open. Didn't even know til I
>landed. Passenger door pops open, without the Lightspeed headset would
>have never heard it. Lean over and close it in flight.
We have probably all missed things on the checklist - frequently because
they are things that normally are already the way they are supposed to be.
On my fist solo cross-country I left the passenger's door unlatched because
there was no instructor in the right seat to do that part of the check and I
neglected to assume that responsibility in her absence. No problem - didn't
know it until I was on the ground at Cheyenne and it started oscillating
while taxiing to parking. But that was a good learning opportunity - it
highlighted that fact that I had gotten a bit complacent about the
checklist. Same thing when I left the window open on a landings. I seldom
open the window and had gotten complacent. Those little things are very
valuable reminders that to you that, hey, the checklist is more than just
mouthing the words without thinking about what they mean - treat each and
every item as a separate entity and consciously check it. Don't just mouth
it and go on.
William L. Bahn
Hey, it flew just fine fort he guy yesterday. Why should I waste ten minutes
doing all of these checks? Time is money! Especially that stupid run-up
check. I'm paying a buck a minute or more when that club is turning. Skip
that and I save enough time AND money to have that really nice dessert that
the restaurant. Hey, do I know how to be frugal, or what?
sridhar_...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<8fuh5b$eti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>It is difficult for me to accept too. During the preflight itself, it
>could be detected that the controls don't move when you manually try to
>move them around for inspection. Then again in the runup, you check the
>flight controls with extreme motions in all four directions.
>
>Do people so blatantly skip the preflight and runup checks?
>
>-Sridhar
>
>In article <20000516225845...@ng-fz1.aol.com>,
> cvbr...@aol.com (CVBreard) wrote:
>> >a locking pin in the steering column made it almost
>> >impossible for the pilot to control
>>
>> This is difficult for me to accept.
>>
>> I 'know' this sort of thing happens, but it is incredible that one
>could go
>> through everything necessary to get airborne without at least a casual
>movement
>> of the control wheel, at least enough to realize that the control lock
>was in
>> place.
>>
>> When you pulled back on the wheel to pitch up during the take-off
>roll, and the
>> controls didn't move, every fibre in your body would scream
>SOMETHING'S
>> WRONG!!, and the ingrained reaction would be to abort.
>>
>> I've had only one of those SOMETHING'S WRONG! incidents on take-off,
>and didn't
>> hesitate to cut the power and abort. (Engine didn't come up to takeoff
>RPM.)
>>
>
>
William L. Bahn
rig an aileron so that as you moved the wheel from one extreme to the other
it starts out at a deflection stop, moves toward center and then reverses
direction and goes back the other way. I have a hard time visualizing how
you could rig that - it would be difficult even if you were trying to cause
that effect.
Dave MacLearn wrote in message ...
William L. Bahn
HLAviation wrote in message
<20000517143101...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
>>> . The pad lock key was found on
>>> the key ring with the airplane's ignition key. The airplane's
>>> ignition was off, and the ignition key had been removed.
>>> Additionally, the pilot's shoulder harness was not locked in
>>> position.
>>>
>
>>Wow. He was trying to get the thing out. Jeez.
>>
>
>well hell, wouldnt you? although I probably wouldn't shut the ignition off,
I probably would have - the key was on the same ring as the ignition key.
Unless the ring was a flimsy wire one (probably wasn't) you would have
played hell getting just the control lock key off the ring. Much fast to
remove the whole key set and deal with the lock and then put it back into
the ignition - just no where near enough time to do more than barely get
started.
Darwin Award winner for sure.
William L. Bahn
It would be interesting to try this, but I don't think I have enough nerve
to put the gust lock in while airborne.
Jim Kendall wrote in message <3923A9AE...@icubed.com>...
>
>
>Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> ..snip...
>> What is trim going to do for you with the elevator pinned. The trim tab
only really
>> has enough aerodynamic force to move the elevator. While it might be of
use to control
>> the plane if the cables snapped, it isn't going to overpower the lock nor
affect the pitch
>> in any reasaonable way.
>
>That's not true.
>I have a '67 C150
>Now, I doubt if it would get off teh ground this way,
>but, once airborne with the gust lock IN, my little elevator trim
>has LOTS of effect.
>Try it.
>
>Jim
>
>
William L. Bahn
proper control deflections during taxi.
Jim Sokoloff wrote in message <3923963E...@tiac.net>...
William L. Bahn
aren't used to flying the plane with trim and so you can probably train
yourself almost immediately to move it the right way.
Bob Moore wrote in message ...
>Jim Kendall <jken...@icubed.com> wrote:
>
>>That's not true. I have a '67 C150
>>Now, I doubt if it would get off teh ground this way,
>>but, once airborne with the gust lock IN, my little elevator trim
>>has LOTS of effect.
>>Try it.
>
William L. Bahn
To paraphrase your last sentence, "If it turns out to be possible to have a
heart attack while flying a plane, then we as a group should know it and
practice for this eventuality..." ;-P
I can think of a few people that could benefit (the world) from such a test.
Cheers.
k8...@pop3.concentric.net wrote in message
<392435D2...@pop3.concentric.net>...
>In my emulation of the loss of flight controls I will not (repeat NOT)
emulate a
>heart attack...
>
>
>Denny
>
>Julio wrote:
>
>> In article <3923E895...@pop3.concentric.net>,
>> k8...@pop3.concentric.net wrote:
>> >Mike...
>> >After reading this thread I'm going to get a safety pilot to
>> help me, take my plane
>> >to altitude, slow to a near stall and then accellerate as
>> though taking off, while
>> >the safety pilot immobilizes the control yoke and see if
>> control is possible...
>> >( ya gotta find something new to do after flying for a $100
>> hamburger gets dull :)
>> >
>> Noe, himself a pilot, said it's "reasonably common" for pilots
>> to have heart attacks when faced with life-threatening
>> situations.
>>