Hand propping a plane
Viperdoc
only with an electrical system, since having to hand prop the plane is
pretty scary.
How bad is it, particularly flying solo? I have visions of either getting
chopped apart, having the plane take off on its own, or inventing my own
version of the flying farmer routine.
Please, only those who have actually done this need reply, although I do not
think MSFS requires you a hand start. (computer case cracked, mouse cold,
chair on)
Edwin Johnson
> only with an electrical system, since having to hand prop the plane is
> pretty scary.
>
> How bad is it, particularly flying solo? I have visions of either getting
Had a Luscombe 8A for 17 years with a Cont. 65. No problem on the hand
propping for that engine. Learn the safe techniques for hand propping from
someone who has done it regularly. Carry rope for a tail tiedown when
starting or have a safety pilot in the plane on the brakes. Others will no
doubt chime in and add other safety comments.
...Edwin
--
____________________________________________________________
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to
return."-da Vinci http://bellsouthpwp2.net/e/d/edwinljohnson
john smith
"Viperdoc" <jni...@NOattglobalSPAMMS.net> wrote:
A common thing to do is acquire a glider hook and attach it to the tail
with a release cable running up the inside of the fuselage and attached
so that you can reach it from the front or rear seat.
Carry several lengths of rope that can be used to secure to different
distances/diameter of cooperative natural/man-made objects. These ropes
can be left behind if necessary. Natural/man-made objects that can be
found on the ground may also serve as wheel chocks in addition to the
rope.
Starting at low idle will also allow you to prop without too much fear
of the aircraft getting away.
The Cub is easy to prop from behind with a hand on the door sill. The
low compression engine (65/85/90) does not require a great deal of
strength to pull through with one hand.
You can also prop with the fuel valve shut off. The engine will feed
from the fuel in the line and filter bowl for about 30 seconds at low
RPM before shutting down.
The problem many novices make is to stand too far from the prop, making
it easy to slip into the prop arc. The correct procedure is to stand
close and step back as one pulls the blade through.
Jay Honeck
> chopped apart, having the plane take off on its own, or inventing my own
> version of the flying farmer routine.
I've observed it done a zillion times, and I've hand propped a
Cherokee 140. As with so many risky things -- it's relatively safe if
done correctly.
That said, watching a guy hand-prop a Cub from the cabin-side, while
standing under the wing, is one of the scariest things I've seen in
aviation. The procedure allows you many opportunities to hurt (or
kill) yourself, and is pretty unforgiving to ham-fisted operators.
I've enjoyed flying in Cubs (on a warm, summer day), and I enjoy
watching them -- heck, we even created a Piper Cub Suite -- but I've
never understood the attraction. It's a drafty, loud, uncomfortable,
poor-perfoming aircraft that has taken on a panache that seems (to me)
undeserved. If I was going to purchase a cool-but-impractical
airplane, I'd buy a Stearman or a Hatz.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Viperdoc
but good ones aren't cheap!
Jay Honeck
> but good ones aren't cheap!
A Hatz is a homebuilt, kind of a mini-Stearman/Travel Air. A buddy of
mine just bought one at Blakesburg last month, and it is waaaay cool.
There's been a 1/4 share of a Stearman for sale on our field for
years. I've been tempted many times -- usually on hot July evenings
-- but I always come to my senses when the temperature drops back into
the 50s...
;-)
Ol Shy & Bashful
Like everything in aviation, nearly anything can be scary if you don't
know what you are doing! Back in the day we propped nearly every
start. Doing it right is fast becoming a lost art but I still do it
from time to time when we end up with a low battery on the line.
With a taildragger the nose is already up which makes it easier to do.
If by yourself, its a good idea to cover all the bases by tieing down
the tail, prime the engine with mags off, then put the fuel in the
shutoff position with throttle at idle. Position the prop, mags to
both, and snap the prop down while a; stepping back away from the prop
arc, or b; if doing it from behind - get your hand out of the prop
arc.
If its a nose wheel, pulling the tail down and tying it off does the
same thing even if you have someone in the cockpit. The prop is so low
you have to bend down while pulling the prop through which has always
made me very uncomfortable.
Propping from behind is quite common with float planes while standing
on a float and holding the strut. I've done it on both sides and with
proper precautions, neither has any particular advantages (except on
floats in the water...<gg>). I've had to prop big radial engines a
number of times and sometimes that can be a frustrating deal like with
a recalcitrant 600hp AgCat where you have to run around the wing and
scramble up onto the lower wing and reach into the cockpit for the
proper controls. After you run around 6 times you think carefully
about what you are doing wrong to avoid it next time! The most
interesting one was a Beech 18 on an icy ramp. As I pulled the prop
thru, my feet went out from under me and I ended up on my back under
the prop arc praying fervently that it didn't start! thats when I
began carrying a 5# sack of Kitty Litter in the airplane for traction
- for my pax at the airstair door, as well as propping if I had to do
it again.
Find someone who really understands how to prop an aircraft and have
them teach you.
cvair...@tigerbyte.net
Hand proping is not that hard VIper...just take the time to learn how
to do it for the particular aircraft
and learn how to do it safely. Practice the technique a bit with the
mags and fuel off so that you can gain
confidence without worrying about it firing up right away. I've had
proped Cubs, C150's and others all the
way up to the R-985's on a Beech 18 ( it had pretty ragged out engines
at the time).
I even know how to do the rope or bungee start on a R-2800 with either
people or a jeep for power !
A good set of sharp angle chocks and the glider towhook help to make
it relatively safe for doing it by
yourself. There is a technique for tieing the tail down without a tow
hook that involves using
a form of a slip knot so that you can recover the entire rope without
having to leave the cockpit
door area. I've seen it done, but don't know how the knot was tied for
sure. Any of the oldtimers that
mess with Cubs a lot should be able to teach you real quick.
Craig C.
Robert M. Gary
Its only scary because you haven't done it. Its not that big a deal?
You can certainly do it solo. I usually used 2 of 3 methods to secure
the plane anytime I started solo. Tie down, brake (although many J-3s
don't have this), chock. You can usually do at least 2 of these. Once
the engine is started its a non-issue because you can set the throttle
to a low setting such that just holding the plane will prevent
movement. When you first start the engine its hard to predict how high
the RPMs will run. Also, I never turned the engine at full throttle. A
lot of guys do this to clear a flooded engine but I never found it
necessary.
-Robert
Robert M. Gary
> In article <46f65dd3$0$17085$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
>
> A common thing to do is acquire a glider hook and attach it to the tail
> with a release cable running up the inside of the fuselage and attached
> so that you can reach it from the front or rear seat.
I never found that necessary. Once the engine is running the RPMs are
very predictable and you can walk around the plane with it running w/o
fear of it moving. Even a big gust of wind can be countered with
slight hand pressure on any surface on the plane as you walk around it
as its running.
> Starting at low idle will also allow you to prop without too much fear
> of the aircraft getting away.
In my experience with the C-65 its very hard to accurately predict the
RPMs when you start the engine. There are a lot of variables with
regard to RPM (including OAT, etc). Make sure the plane is secure when
you start it and then adjust the throttle.
> The problem many novices make is to stand too far from the prop, making
> it easy to slip into the prop arc. The correct procedure is to stand
> close and step back as one pulls the blade through.
Yes. Also, only use a full kick swing when the mags are hot. Your
initial turns (to get fuel in the engine) should be done with the palm
of your hand (such that if the engine does start you won't hurt your
fingers). I've seen too many guys do full kick swings when priming the
engine such that they are too tired when actually started; very
dangerous.
Ron Wanttaja
wrote:
> From one of the last threads, I had mentioned possibly buying a cub, but
> only with an electrical system, since having to hand prop the plane is
> pretty scary.
>
> How bad is it, particularly flying solo? I have visions of either getting
> chopped apart, having the plane take off on its own, or inventing my own
> version of the flying farmer routine.
Propped the original Fly Baby for the ~7 years I flew it. My current Fly Baby
has a starter, but a buddy with a Boredom Fighter doesn't so I end up propping
him whenever we fly somewhere.
The main thing is to secure the airplane. Few people actually get hit by the
prop when handpropping (though it DOES happen), but more often the throttle
isn't back when the engine catches. The plane surges forward starts running
into things. It isn't a danger if the engine is at idle, but sometimes you make
a mistake.
Hence, ALWAYS have the airplane tied down when you prop it. You can do that
with regular tiedowns...just leave the airplane tied down, start the engine,
make sure the engine is running at a nice even idle, then walk around and undo
the ropes. Even just a tail tiedown is enough.
For the Fly Baby crowd, I recommend a glider hook:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html
This lets you release the tail tiedown from the cockpit. I once made the
mistake of propping the Fly Baby with the throttle wide open (clearing a
flooding situation with mags off, forgetting to pull the throttle back before
turning the mags on). The hook held, though the tail was ~12 inches off the
deck by the time I ran around to the cockpit to pull the throttle back.
You can almost always find an idle tiedown to fix to the glider hook, and you
should carry a hank of rope and a knife in case you end up in a spot that
doesn't have any tiedowns. In seven years, I propped an un-tied-down Fly Baby
only twice. The first was when the engine went to sleep on final on a 15-degree
day. The prop came to a stop as I pulled off the runway. I got out and flipped
it to get it going again. The second was when I stopped at a private grass
field that had neither tiedown ropes or any nearby structures to tie one to.
This is not to minimize the need for training in hand propping, but it's really
not that hard to learn. Don't hook your fingers around the trailing edge, make
sure the surface you're standing on isn't slippery, that sort of thing.
Cub owners often use a procedure called "Seaplane start," where the pilot stands
by the open doorway and flips the prop from behind. Proponents point out that
a) It allows the pilot to hang on to something while turning the prop, and b)
The magneto switches are in-reach of the pilot in case he needs to shut it down
in a hurry. I'm not too fired up with it, myself, but a lot of folks seem to use
it.
Ron Wanttaja
LJ Blodgett
LJ Blodgett
LJ Blodgett
LJ Blodgett
Jim Burns
Jim
"Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:1190554527.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Don Tuite
<jni...@NOattglobalSPAMMS.net> wrote:
Taylorcraft and Champ, not a cub. Get somebody experienced to show
you. Be sure the tail's tied down and it's a non-event.
Don
Bob Gardner
the only way to go...standing in front meant getting very wet and having
very poor leverage.
Bob Gardner
"Viperdoc" <jni...@NOattglobalSPAMMS.net> wrote in message
news:46f65dd3$0$17085$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Dan_Thom...@yahoo.com
starter. Most of these engines have different preferences, and this
one wants no prime unless the temperature is way below freezing. I
have the throttle completely closed, an aggressive parking brake
that's set, and mags on Both. It will fire on the 7th or 8th blade. It
sometimes floods if it doesn't get going the first time and requires
mags off, throttle open, and 16 to 20 blades backwards to clear the
fuel. Must remember to close the throttle before trying again. On rare
occasions I have to tie that tail down and open the throttle a bit to
get it going if it wants to flood persistently. I don't know why it
floods so easily; the carb float level is set right where it's
supposed to be and the idle mixture is right on. It's a bear to start
if it's been running and shut down for a few minutes. Wants to flood,
again. I think the prop's bouncing against the compression after a
pull moves air back and forth past the idle jets and pulls too much
fuel into the carb throat, which then gets sucked into the engine as
it starts and floods it. An electric starter wouldn't allow that.
I have two impulse mags, so starting on Both is safe enough.
When I had one, the Right mag, I'd start it on that mag only so that
the Left mag, which fired at 30° BTDC, wouldn't kick the engine back
and kill it just as it got going. The impulse coupling delays the
spark to TDC or thereabouts.
After shutting the fuel off, the engine will idle on the bowl
for more than a minute. No idle cutoff on the mixture control. Fuel
from the strainer and fuel lines don't figure into the run time;
they're still full when it dies.
Dan
Viperdoc
ago. He was doing a minimal wage type job with a weed eater at a local grass
strip. Of course, he was wearing hearing protection, and he walked in front
of a taxiing airplane.
His arm, along with the major nerves and arteries, was pretty much severed
between the shoulder and elbow. Even with a maximal effort to save the limb,
it at best ended up pretty dysfunctional, and it was his dominant arm.
He was only around 20, and his life was permanently changed in an instant.
Brian
Champs that each flew about 100 hours per month. I did over 300 hours
of instruction in these champs, none had electrical systems. About 80%
of this was primary instruction. The only hand propping incident we
ever had was when one of the instructors was propping it with a 1st
time student at the controls (bad idea) and the student paniced after
the engine started and pushed the thottle forward, taxiing the
airplane into the fuel island. Fortunatly the only damage was a bent
wing Strut and damaged leading edge to the wing.
Remember this is the only hand propping incident out of probably
nearly 6000 hours of flight time these champs did mostly with student
having less than 50 hrs of flight time. And no one was ever hurt
while hand propping them.
If the Airplane has Impulse coupling then hand proping is ridiculasly
easy under most circumstances. Champs and J-3s you can usually stand
behind the propeller to start them and you don't so much swing the
prop and just push it a little. I joke with students that I think you
could look at it funny and it would start.
Without impulse coupling you have to usually stand in front of the
prop and give it a good hard swing, especially when the engine is
warm. This is slightly more scary, mostly because you have swing it so
much harder, but still not bad.
Just follow the rules and you will never have any problem.
1. Always treat the prop like it will start.
a, I have had one start while just pulling the prop through
with mags off
2. Always tie the tail down or have qualified pilot at the controls.
a.. Some pilots like installing a glider style tow hook so they
can release the tail from the cockpit
3. If #2 is not available or practical at the very least chock the
airplane well before starting, and it is better to have no-one at the
controls than an inexperienced person.
a. I know one pilot that has set of chocks with a rope on them
so he can remove the chocks from the cockpit.
Short version is generally that the only people afraid of hand
propping are those that have not had to do it regularly. It can be a
handy skill to have as well. I have hand propped Champs, J-3's, T-
Craft,PA18's, Cherokees, C-172, C-182, and others. I did draw the line
at the 3 Bladed C-310. I watched someone else successfuly do it.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Mike Isaksen
"Brian" ...
> If the Airplane has Impulse coupling then hand proping is ridiculasly
> easy under most circumstances. Champs and J-3s you can usually stand
> behind the propeller to start them and you don't so much swing the
Did you mean "...as push it a little..." ??
I have never hand propped an airplane, but if the above is true, I can
finally understand why we use the arcane procedure of pulling the mixture
for shutdown, or better yet, where it came from.
Dan_Thom...@yahoo.com
That's what he meant. As you pull the prop through, the magneto
shaft locks and a spring on its coupling winds up until the piston is
near the top of its travel. Then that shaft unlocks, the spring gives
it a real good spin, and the magneto generates a high voltage for the
sparkplug. Bang! And, like you say, that's why we starve the engine
AND shut the mags off. Double protection. The magneto switch shorts
the mag, but if the wire between the switch and mag is broken or
loose, the mag is on. Better to have no fuel fumes in those cylinders.
And that's why our standard procedure here when shutting down is to
close the throttle, shut the mags off for a second to see if the
engine tries to die, then back on again, pull the mixture, mags off
after the prop stops. If the engine keeps running with the switch off,
something's wrong and that prop is dangerous until it's fixed.
Dan
Bertie the Bunyip
>> How bad is it, particularly flying solo? I have visions of either
>> getting chopped apart, having the plane take off on its own, or
>> inventing my own version of the flying farmer routine.
>
> I've observed it done a zillion times, and I've hand propped a
> Cherokee 140. As with so many risky things -- it's relatively safe if
> done correctly.
>
> That said, watching a guy hand-prop a Cub from the cabin-side, while
> standing under the wing, is one of the scariest things I've seen in
> aviation. The procedure allows you many opportunities to hurt (or
> kill) yourself, and is pretty unforgiving to ham-fisted operators.
>
Actually, I've done that thousands of times in cubs and it's probably the
safest way to prop a cub. Not so much with the other little rag bags,
though. It's also the only way you can prop a floatplane safely!
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
>> What's a Hatz? Stearman also a possibility- my friends on the field
>> had one, but good ones aren't cheap!
>
> A Hatz is a homebuilt, kind of a mini-Stearman/Travel Air. A buddy of
> mine just bought one at Blakesburg last month, and it is waaaay cool.
>
It's actualy More of a scale down Waco F-2. John Hatz was a big Waco man
and restorer and he decided he wanted a little one to putz around in so he
laid the first Hatz out on his barn floor almost freehand!
A guy named Dudley Kelly saw it at Rockford and decided he wanted one and
so asked if he could copy it. He borrowed it and sort of copied it, but
Dudley was a proper engineer, so he made a considerable number of
alterations to it to make it a better airplane and also to make it easy for
amatuers to build. I've flown a few of them and it's one of the most well
mannered taildragger I've ever flown.
Not a lot of performance. nothing like a Pitts or Skybolt, for instance.
It's basically a 1930's era biplane that flies a lot like a Champ.
I've been building one for some time now..
Bertie
C J Campbell
I have only hand propped a plane once or twice. It is not quite as
scary as it looks. You can prop a Cub from the back.
The thing about solo, though, is that some areas prohibit hand-propping
a plane unless a qualified pilot is at the controls. People have gotten
tickets for it at Boeing Field in Seattle. The FAA is sovereign once
you get into the air, but any airport, city, county, state or Grand
Poo-Bah can make up whatever rules they want to control planes on the
ground.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor
Bertie the Bunyip
news:1190589470.9...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
I've always understood the reason for shutting down with the mixture is
to keep any remaining fuel from diluting the oil film on the sides of
the cylinders, helping to keep your cylinder walls intact.
Bertie
>
Bob Fry
requiring hand propping. And I've hand propped an Aircoupe a couple
of times--the relevance will be explained. So I'm qualified to answer
your question, though others more so.
Summary: Don't let hand propping deter you from buying a Cub or
similar if that is what you want. With proper training on the
small-engined tail-draggers, hand propping is quite safe.
Explanation: Small engines on tail-draggers are the easiest to prop,
because it's easy to pull the prop through (low compression) and the
height and angle are good (nose high). Get an experienced tail-dragger
instructor to show you how to do it, and then always follow those
instructions. Also keep the engine in shape so it starts easy and
idles slow.
Solo, you make sure the tailwheel is tied down or you have chocked the
tires, and the throttle barely cracked, all stuff you would do with a
pilot at the controls anyway. I would rather prop solo because I am
not depending on someone else.
I have propped the Aircoupe a couple of times and hate it. Being a
tricycle the height and angle are bad. Much more dangerous than a
tail-dragger.
--
Old ladies can eat more than you think.
--Peter Kay
Dan_Thom...@yahoo.com
Never heard that at all. It's a valid point, perhaps, but
that oil film is so thin already that corrosion sets in soon anyway.
Dan
Bertie the Bunyip
news:1190642311.7...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
Dunno for certain. It's what the IA at the place I learned to fly told
me when I couldn't get a satisfactory answer from anyone else. As far as
I can see it's not meant to stop corrosion, but to discourage it...
Bertie
>
>
Morgans
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote
.
> I've been building one for some time now..
Sounds killer interesting! How about putting up some pictures somewhere,
when you get the chance?
How far along are you?
--
Jim in NC
Bertie the Bunyip
news:ReRJi.30$UU...@newsfe02.lga:
Maybe 25%. It's not so interesting. Just another rag and tube airplane. I
have talked about this a lot in RAH over the years but not using my agent
provocateur personality.
Bertie
Cubdriver
<jni...@NOattglobalSPAMMS.net> wrote:
>How bad is it, particularly flying solo? I have visions of either getting
>chopped apart, having the plane take off on its own, or inventing my own
>version of the flying farmer routine.
It is certainly doable--I did it at ten-thirty this morning. I have a
pair of chocks with a length of parachute cord. In theory, I jump into
the back seat and give a yank on each side of the cord, and the chocks
come back to me. As it happens, this morning they did not. Evidently I
had cracked the throttle a mite too much and the plane moved forward
against the chocks, welding the near one in place. I had to get out
and give it some encouragement.
A preferred method is to enlist a helper. I carry a length of nylon
line to tie the tail to anything sturdy. The helper then unties it and
brings it forward, staying always behind the wing.
I have altogether given up using the system I was trained to use: find
somebody to prop it or to sit at the controls. Propping is not a
common talent these days, and I've had a certificated pilot get into
the front seat of the Cub and wind up on his knees facing aft.
(Wicked Good Aviation in Wiscasset ME will prop a Cub.)
I think I would want a starter.
Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com
Cubdriver
>Without impulse coupling you have to usually stand in front of the
>prop and give it a good hard swing, especially when the engine is
>warm. This is slightly more scary, mostly because you have swing it so
>much harder, but still not bad.
I've never done this. Warm, it starts on the first (usually) or second
(always, so far) bounce. I prop from behind, left hand on the window
jamb, left foot snug against the chock (see earlier post).
I press down until I get resistance, release pressure, do it again,
and maybe a third time before I put any effort into it. Since it's the
sharp edge of the blade, my left hand is on the airplane, and I
damaged the right shoulder in January, that's really not much effort
at all.
An earlier poster mentioned that it's hard to predict RPMs. Indeed! I
discovered that this morning.
Cubdriver
wrote:
>That said, watching a guy hand-prop a Cub from the cabin-side, while
>standing under the wing, is one of the scariest things I've seen in
>aviation. The procedure allows you many opportunities to hurt (or
>kill) yourself, and is pretty unforgiving to ham-fisted operators.
It's the accepted practice. I wouldn't do it any other way.
I even prop from behind if I propping for someone else and I don't
know him very well.
Cubdriver
>but don't know how the knot was tied for
>sure.
It's a knot intended for tying up horses for grazing. Google ought to
find it for you.
(I've never done it. Probably ought to learn.)
Robert M. Gary
> Short version is generally that the only people afraid of hand
> propping are those that have not had to do it regularly. It can be a
> handy skill to have as well. I have hand propped Champs, J-3's, T-
> Craft,PA18's, Cherokees, C-172, C-182, and others. I did draw the line
> at the 3 Bladed C-310. I watched someone else successfuly do it.
When the started went out on my Mooney, I drew the line. I'm not hand
starting the Mooney.
-Robert
Morgans
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote
> Maybe 25%. It's not so interesting. Just another rag and tube airplane. I
> have talked about this a lot in RAH over the years but not using my agent
> provocateur personality.
Ahhh, the mystery deepens. <g>
Now I have to figure out who your other persona is!
--
Jim in NC
Bertie the Bunyip
> "Bertie the Bunyip" <S...@rt.1> wrote
>
> > Maybe 25%. It's not so interesting. Just another rag and tube airplane. I
> > have talked about this a lot in RAH over the years but not using my agent
> > provocateur personality.
>
> Ahhh, the mystery deepens. <g>
>
> Now I have to figure out who your other persona is!
There are lots of people who would like to do that.
Some of them are very nasty indeed, including some neo-nazis that
frequent usenet who i've pissed off bigtime as well as half of New
Zealand.
Bertie
Morgans
"Bertie the Bunyip" <> wrote
> There are lots of people who would like to do that.
> Some of them are very nasty indeed, including some neo-nazis that
> frequent usenet who i've pissed off bigtime as well as half of New
> Zealand.
Well, if I do, I'll keep your secret. I'm not sure why, except that at
heart, you must be a fellow homebuilder, and truly involved in aviation as a
way of life.
At times, I would like to see you exposed, like every time you reply to MX.
I would really like to see if everyone could try (again) to not respond, and
shun him.
The entertainment value of saying you are wrong, ...you will never fly,
...you are an idiot, ....pick your favorite saying-reason-has grown very
old, to me. I sure would like to see our threads not being hijacked.
--
Jim in NC
Dudley Henriques
> At times, I would like to see you exposed.
I'm not even going NEAR this one :-)))
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
> "Bertie the Bunyip" <> wrote
>
> > There are lots of people who would like to do that.
> > Some of them are very nasty indeed, including some neo-nazis that
> > frequent usenet who i've pissed off bigtime as well as half of New
> > Zealand.
>
> Well, if I do, I'll keep your secret. I'm not sure why, except that at
> heart, you must be a fellow homebuilder, and truly involved in aviation as a
> way of life.
>
> At times, I would like to see you exposed, like every time you reply to MX.
You'll be the first in over ten years to do so.
>
> I would really like to see if everyone could try (again) to not respond, and
> shun him.
You really need to research Bertie the Bunyip.
>
> The entertainment value of saying you are wrong, ...you will never fly,
> ...you are an idiot, ....pick your favorite saying-reason-has grown very
> old, to me.
It's not supposed to entertain.
I sure would like to see our threads not being hijacked.
Not going to happen..!
Bertie
Morgans
>
> I'm not even going NEAR this one :-)))
Dudley, please! <shudder> :-o
Man, you do need help! <g>
--
Jim in NC
Morgans
"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote
>
> Not going to happen..!
Because he won't give up, others won't give up, or you won't give up?
--
Jim in NC
Big John
Battery on my Mooney went south and I walked around front and put my
hands on the prop, which seemed to be about knee level. After that
touchy feely on prop, went and found a FBO who gave me a jump start.
One smart move :o)
Big John
********************************************
Dudley Henriques
It's a quiet night up here and I am looking for entertainment, or at
least some innocent person to bug :-))
Throwing me a straight line like that one was like waving a red flag in
front of a bull :-))
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
I agree John. I've probably propped a thousand planes in my day. The one
situation I have always warned pilots about is the nosewheel airplane
sitting extra low. Could be a low nose strut or just a bad angle where
it's parked. The Mooney is a tad low tis true.
My general rule is that if I have to bend down below a natural stance
with my hands on the prop, it's a bad situation for hand propping that
airplane.
DH
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
news:T6WdnQOPS9H0FGXb...@rcn.net:
>
> I agree John. I've probably propped a thousand planes in my day. The one
> situation I have always warned pilots about is the nosewheel airplane
> sitting extra low. Could be a low nose strut or just a bad angle where
> it's parked. The Mooney is a tad low tis true.
> My general rule is that if I have to bend down below a natural stance
> with my hands on the prop, it's a bad situation for hand propping that
> airplane.
>
Not to mention that it's just about impossible to get the leverage you need
to pull them through. I have gotten them going by tying the tail dwon so
that it pulled the nose up. And once by getting two other pax in the
airplane to lean on the rear of the fuselage to get the nose up. Works OK,
but it's still awkward compared to a tailwheel airplane.
Which only goes to further the argument that Nosewheels are a crime against
nature.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
@newsfe05.lga:
>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote
>>
>> Not going to happen..!
>
> Because he won't give up, others won't give up, or you won't give up?
It's not a case of giving up.
You really need to look in the usenet archives though.
Bertie
karl gruber
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> > Not to mention that it's just about
> to pull them through. I have gotten them going by tying the tail dwon so
> that it pulled the nose up. And once by getting two other pax in the
> airplane to lean on the rear of the fuselage to get the nose up. Works OK,
> but it's still awkward compared to a tailwheel airplane.
>
> Which only goes to further the argument that Nosewheels are a crime
> against
> nature.
>
> Bertie
Also............if your battery is dead an aircraft with an alternator is
will not charge the battery or supply the main bus with power. So great,
hand prop it, but that just gets the engine going. That might be fantastic
on a remote lake in British Columbia, but won't be worth much at KTEB.
Karl
Curator
Morgans
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
news:Xns99B695801AB...@207.14.116.130...
Which will show me what?
--
Jim in NC
Bertie the Bunyip
@newsfe12.lga:
You're one of those guys who looks at a cubist painting and asks what it
means, aren't you/
Bertie
Robert M. Gary
> Also............if your battery is dead an aircraft with an alternator is
> will not charge the battery or supply the main bus with power. So great,
> hand prop it, but that just gets the engine going. That might be fantastic
> on a remote lake in British Columbia, but won't be worth much at KTEB.
That battery would have to be enourmously dead though to not have
enough power to generate the field in the alternator. That doesn't
take much power. I had to hand prop the C140 several times because it
didn't have enough juice to send the starter but there was more than
enough juice to get the field going.
-robert
Dudley Henriques
Spoken like a man of my own ripe old age :-)) Too bad we couldn't have
put your Luscombe in the hangar long enough to get you checked out in
the Mustang. A few trips around the patch flying the T6 from the back
seat would probably have done the trick for you.
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
I've flown a T-6, but not a Mustang. Also spent a good few years flying
Twin Beeches and DC-3s, Did a few horus in an S1-C a long time ago which
scared the crap out of me mostly because my friend who had built it
would have killed me for scraping a wingtip, but mostly I fly kiddy cars
now. Just in the process of buying a 7KCAB, though!
Bertie
>
Newps
karl gruber wrote:
>
>
> Also............if your battery is dead an aircraft with an alternator is
> will not charge the battery or supply the main bus with power. So great,
> hand prop it, but that just gets the engine going. That might be fantastic
> on a remote lake in British Columbia, but won't be worth much at KTEB.
Maybe, maybe not. Several years ago I had a short in my 182 that caused
the master to turn on and drain the battery completely dead. FBO gave
me a jump start, everything worked normally and I flew three hours to a
fuel stop. After fueling battery was still completely dead. So we
charged it for 30 minutes, still not enough to start the plane. Jumped
the plane again and I was off. This time though there was enough juice
in the battery so the alternator would charge. By the time I got back
the battery was fully charged. So the alternator may provide juice but
not charge the battery.
Bertie the Bunyip
But if you're offering me a go in a Mustang, I'm there!
Bertie
Dudley Henriques
I had an acro student who owned a Citabria for awhile and we started
training him in it. I liked the vertical performance a bit better than
the Aerobat (which is a hoot as an acro platform :-). The Citabria
snapped a bit nicer as well, although both were not "fast" by Pitts
standards.
The student liked acro so much (he was pretty well off) that he bought a
new Decathlon. The first day he had it he caught the prop going over a
mound of dirt on a wheel landing in Maryland. The second day he owned it
he got a letter from Champion telling him about the spar AD.
He was NOT a happy camper, but he laid out the money and did the AD. I
never asked him how much it cost him :-)
DH
Anyway,
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
I think we're about 10 years too late Bertie! Besides, my wife would
kill me if I even hinted at flying again :-))
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
I used to fly a decatholon quite a bit. I liked it a lot. It was a very
solid feeling, predictable airplane that never ever surprised me. The
Citabria was OK, but I used to teach in one and wasn't crazy about doing
aerobatic instruction in it because it was just too easy to get it going
to fast if the student screwed up a slow roll, for instance. I got even
more nervous about them when the strut end AD came out on them. the guys
I worked for opted for the less expensive lowering the redline approach
o that AD. Still, for limited use amongst a few guys it's perfect. Not
as good as a 'Lakes, maybe, but a good sport airplane.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
ydnQ2L1dmhpmTbn...@rcn.net:
Ah, OK. That's a pity. I passed up a chance for a ride in one once and
have been kicking myself ever since. I do have a chance to fly a Vampire
I really have to take up someday soon while it's still in one piece and
before my friend's wife kills him for how much he spends on it.
Bertie
LJ Blodgett
gone. LJ
Dudley Henriques
If you mean a Great Lakes, I agree. I loved that airplane! Had access to
one and flew it often.
I also agree on the potential dishout problems with students doing slow
rolls. In the Citabria I always taught slow rolls in two parts; the roll
to inverted, then the last half from inverted. The Citabria has a fairly
nose high level flight inverted flight attitude and I fould it easier
for the student if they sought that inverted attitude then stopped there.
Teaching them "top" rudder and "bottom" rudder had the desired effect of
getting students in the habit of thinking where the rudder should be as
they attempted the last half of the roll. The final step of course was
the blending in of all crossed controls as the roll was executed.
You're right about the Citabria. It did indeed have a tendency to dish
out of a slow roll if you were a bit late switching your feet through
inverted.
The Decathlon was much better due to the lower inverted nose attitude
for level inverted flight and the faster roll rate. The Decathlon was
one of my favorite acro mounts for new acro students for many of the
reasons you have mentioned.
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
I used to put 130 in the 51 before it became something that only Hoover
could afford on an expense account :-) Dropping down to 100LL meant
dropping the max power back on takeoff to 55 inches, but that's more
than enough for the Mustang anyway, and it saved a ton of money which of
course made my wife VERY happy. I think she bought a mink coat on the
difference between the 130 and 100 once :-)
A Vampire?? De Havilland Vampire? never got a shot at anything that old
but I would imagine it would be fun to fly.
Just don't forget the spool up time on that old engine in there if you
get a little low and slow on approach. :-)
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
Bill Fornof, an old friend, had painted on the nose of his Bearcat,
"Baby, if you love me, don't leave me".
My all time favorite would be "Tokefogo" an acronym on Dick Foote's F4F
Wildcat that translated means, "to keep fogies from growing old"
--
Dudley Henriques
Orval Fairbairn
Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> Bill Fornof, an old friend, had painted on the nose of his Bearcat,
> "Baby, if you love me, don't leave me".
> My all time favorite would be "Tokefogo" an acronym on Dick Foote's F4F
> Wildcat that translated means, "to keep fogies from growing old"
I think that Dick has given up on the Wildcat, but Lex DuPont still
occasionally flies his up at New Garden.
Dudley Henriques
Isn't a Cub ist a guy who flies a Cub???
D
--
Dudley Henriques
JGalban via AviationKB.com
>
>Maybe, maybe not. Several years ago I had a short in my 182 that caused
>the master to turn on and drain the battery completely dead. FBO gave
>me a jump start, everything worked normally and I flew three hours to a
>fuel stop. After fueling battery was still completely dead. So we
>charged it for 30 minutes, still not enough to start the plane. Jumped
>the plane again and I was off. This time though there was enough juice
>in the battery so the alternator would charge. By the time I got back
>the battery was fully charged. So the alternator may provide juice but
>not charge the battery.
You were lucky. I tried the same thing on my Cherokee many years back.
The battery was dead because the maintenance guys left the master on all
night. We jumped it and left the cables attached for a bit, so that the
primary field on the alternator would be energized enough to begin recharging
the battery. After disconnecting the start cart, I taxied for takeoff with
the alternator showing a pretty good charge at idle speed. When I throttled
up for takeoff, I rolled about 100 ft., the overvoltage relay tripped and the
panel went dark. Fortunately, I had the handheld onboard and notified the
tower I was coming back around to land.
After that, I decided to do it right and put the battery on a slow charge
for about 8 hrs. Everything was back to normal after that.
Conversly, my old generator equipped 172 did just fine after a handprop
with a dead battery. I often had to do this after a night flight, since
having the lights, radio and xpnder on during low rpm pattern flight and
taxiing would drain that little battery in about 15 min.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200709/1
Bertie the Bunyip
> > @newsfe12.lga:
>
> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" <S...@rt.1> wrote in message
> >>news:Xns99B695801AB...@207.14.116.130...
> >>> "Morgans" <jsmor...@charterJUNK.net> wrote in news:69%Ji.83$Nr6.34
> >>> @newsfe05.lga:
>
> >>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote
> >>>>> Not going to happen..!
> >>>> Because he won't give up, others won't give up, or you won't give up?
> >>> It's not a case of giving up.
>
> >>> You really need to look in the usenet archives though.
> >> Which will show me what?
>
> > You're one of those guys who looks at a cubist painting and asks what it
> > means, aren't you/
>
> > Bertie
>
> Isn't a Cub ist a guy who flies a Cub???
> D
Oow if I Just had somne pastels now!
Bertie
Dudley Henriques
Our daughter and her husband are both fairly well known internationally
as water color artists and teachers. She has things stuffed into
cubicles all over their home in Florida. I should kid her about becoming
a Cubist
:-)
Don't know how interested you might be in art, but here is their website
link.
> http://www.watercolorsbyrogers.com/
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
> > ydnQ2L1dmhpmTbnZ2dnUVZ_tKin...@rcn.net:
>
> >> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> >>> Dudley Henriques <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote in> >>>>> Dudley Henriques <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote in
Yeah, well, I'm well used to that. I've flown some fairly old jets,
though nothng as old as the Vampire. Yeah, it's a DeHavilland Vampire
he has. I'm not too sure about the ins and outs of flying it, but
he'll brief me on all that before we go. Standard fuel load at take
off is 55 minutes to dry tanks if you don't push it! This one is a two
seater, obviously. I think I will cal lhim tomorrow! Problem is, it's
one of these airplanes that's decked about half the time waitng for
some esoteric part or another..
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
also knew. He liked to run around in military uniforms, had all his
airplanes painted up in military colors, had a couple of tanks and
artillery pieces and is currently locked up..
Oh yes, he had a paper route, too.
Maybe you've flown it..
Bertie
Dudley Henriques
Good God! Are we talking about the same character??? If so, he was the
"strangest" person I have ever met in aviation. He worked at the news
stand in Newark Delaware. Word had it that his family was loaded to the
gills and left him a fortune that he promptly squandered on anything
that he could drive or fly.
He bought a P51 from Frank Tallman, flew it all the way across the
country and parked it. I heard he sold it finally.
Waldo and Betty Lovett who owned Lovett Field in Maryland I believe were
related to him in some way. I know they thought he was nuts.
Is this the same guy??
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
I know what you mean. When something that old and cranky needs a part it
can be a royal PIA trying to find it.
Good luck with the flight if you get it running.
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> > BTW, the T-6 i flew was owned by a very strange man who you probably
> > also knew. He liked to run around in military uniforms, had all his
> > airplanes painted up in military colors, had a couple of tanks and
> > artillery pieces and is currently locked up..
> > Oh yes, he had a paper route, too.
> > Maybe you've flown it..
>
> > Bertie
>
> Good God! Are we talking about the same character??? If so, he was the
> "strangest" person I have ever met in aviation. He worked at the news
> stand in Newark Delaware. Word had it that his family was loaded to the
> gills and left him a fortune that he promptly squandered on anything
> that he could drive or fly.
That's him. Family was loaded has to be the understaement of the
century, of course.
> He bought a P51 from Frank Tallman, flew it all the way across the
> country and parked it. I heard he sold it finally.
> Waldo and Betty Lovett who owned Lovett Field in Maryland I believe were
> related to him in some way. I know they thought he was nuts.
> Is this the same guy??
Well, it's John Dupont. I don't know the other people you mention, but
he leased us his T-6 but we had to get rid of it when the neighbors
bitched about the howl it made on takeoff. We had a lot of Birddogs
towing glider as well and those were bad enough but a T-6 taking off
was like the fabric of the universe ripping if you lived near the
airport. We only had it a week. I know he painted everything he had
military, including his glass gliders. I believe he was quite friendly
with Tom Clancy and they used to play soldiers together.
Funniest thing about the siege at his house was that he had a firing
range he used to let the local cops use. Imagine their trepidation
when they showed up at his house knowing full well the arsenal he had
stashed inside. They must have been pissing their pants!
Bertie
karl gruber
"Newps" <now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:D-6dneuwfuL7pWTb...@bresnan.com...
Lead acid batteries self charge after some time. You didn't have a dead
battery after that.
KG
Bertie the Bunyip
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nice! Wish I could do that!
Bertie
mrob...@worldnet.att.net
> I do have a chance to fly a Vampire I really have to take up someday
> soon while it's still in one piece and before my friend's wife kills
> him for how much he spends on it.
Just wait for that to happen. Then you can pick up the plane cheap in
the estate sale. :)
Matt Roberds
Dudley Henriques
I knew him as Steve Rob.... (can't use his full name here) I know the
T6. In fact, I've flown IN IT but haven't flown it alone. I was with him
at the time. The story we always heard he was some kind of illegitimate
child of one of the DuPont's but which one I never heard. I didn't know
if that story was true or not. Waldo and Betty Lovett actually hated the
guy and didn't want him on the field.
Can you let me in on what happened to put him in jail. I hadn't heard
about that. Use back channel if you like. No problem,
John DuPont was the guy who shot the wrestler wasn't he? That's another
guy and not Steve R.
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
and I understand Greece again this year.
Janet goes nuts trying to make her portrait schedule play against her
teaching seminars.
Me....my total art knowledge consists of some stick figures I used to
draw on postit pads then flip the pages to watch them dance :-))
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
imagine how.
The guy i'm talking about is John DuPont and it's no secret at all how
he ended up in jail. Just google John DuPont and prepare to be
entertained.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
> Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:
>
> > I do have a chance to fly a Vampire I really have to take up someday
> > soon while it's still in one piece and before my friend's wife kills
> > him for how much he spends on it.
>
> Just wait for that to happen. Then you can pick up the plane cheap in
> the estate sale. :)
The airplane was actually pretty cheap to begin with. To give you an
idea, it's operating costs for fifty hours are more than the purchase
price! It's mighty tempting when you see these L-29s and Mig -17s on
Ebay and such for peanuts, what they don't tell you...
Bertie
Bertie
Dudley Henriques
I know about John DuPont. He was the guy from Newtown Square who put a
few rounds into his wrestler buddy. He's in jail I know.
The other guy who worked at the newsstand in Newark and owned all the
military stuff including an AT6 was Steve Roberts. Don't know what ever
happened to him but he was shall we say "eccentric" to say the least.
I don't know if John DuPont had any aviation ties; at least none that I
know of anyway.
--
Dudley Henriques
Bertie the Bunyip
Aha. OK. It was John who brought the airplane over to us and I thought
it was him who owned the airplane. It was definitely the same guy I
saw on CNN being hauled away, anyway. Maybe they had some sort of
partnership and I got the two confused. It was my boss who told me
about the military thing and John definitely had a thing for that as
well so maybe they were connected that way. I only met him the one
time though. Whichever guy it was, we were probably better off without
either of them.
I did know Steven Du Pont through gliding when I was a kid. When I
decided to build a glider a few years later, I knew he had some
involvement with the design I was interested in so I called his office
and asked to speak to him. He didn't know me from Adam, of course. I
ws just some kid at the airport form a few years before, but he talked
to me for about half an hour. Imagine calling up the CEO of one of the
world's largest companies and getting to talk to him just like that.
Dudley Henriques
I sort of grew up in the same atmosphere. I learned to fly at the old
DuPont Airport near Wilmington. Halec and Kippy DuPont were there all
the time and I knew them both fairly well when we were all kids. H.B.
DuPont was the bigwig at DuPont Airport. He was another eccentric but a
fairly likable fellow.
My instructor at DuPont was Dick Zebley.
Roberts owned the T6 alone as far as I know, and kept it at Summit after
Kippy bought the field from Ed Black. Ed was a partner with Al Lewis
over at Cross Keys before he started Baker's Field which eventually
became Summit Aviation.
A real mess trying to remember all this from years ago :-))
Roberts had Jeeps and Half Tracks all painted up in military colors.
He's the guy I was talking about.
--
Dudley Henriques
Montblack
> Me....my total art knowledge consists of some stick figures I used to draw
> on postit pads then flip the pages to watch them dance :-))
Cool, ...performance art!
(Get any funding for that?)
Montblack <g>
http://voyage.typepad.com/lfc_images/Li_Wei_1.jpg
Performance artist - "Airplane Rides" (my title)
Dudley Henriques
--
Dudley Henriques
Montblack
> I might if I could make them dance in a jar filled with urine :-))
Cool, where do I sign up for the $$$,$$$?
http://www.bloomingtoncivictheatre.org/
URINETOWN (The Musical) is our theatre's next show!
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYCdQw_3Ebo&mode=related&search=>
"It's a Privilege to Pee" (Urinetown)
Montblack
...ok, one more.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yrTutduXIM&mode=related&search=>
"Don't be the Bunny" (Urinetown)
Big John
Are you sure your not talking about the BT-13 (Vultee Vibrator) vs the
T-6? It would shake the glass out of windows when it went by at
take-off power. Was told that the two position Prop in flat pitch, the
tips would go super sonic causing all the noise and vibration????
Big John
*************************************
Big John
21 seconds from idle to full throttle in the F-80A/B without over
temping the engine or blowing flame out. Small engine and manual
throttle valve.
Sit with your watch and count off the seconds which seem like a life
time (and sometimes were if you were short and needed power).
Big John
************************************
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:53:59 -0400, Dudley Henriques
<dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote:
>Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in news:t-
>> ydnQ2L1dmhpmTbn...@rcn.net:
>>
>>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in
>>>> news:VcidnWqfZsqSqGTb...@rcn.net:
>>>>
>>>>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>>>> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in
>> have been kicking myself ever since. I do have a chance to fly a Vampire
>> I really have to take up someday soon while it's still in one piece and
>> before my friend's wife kills him for how much he spends on it.
>>
>>
Bertie the Bunyip
OK, I must have got the story confused. That had to be the guy who was
up at our place. I'll look up the N# of the T-6 when I get home. I don't
know any of those guys, bu tI did have an airplane based at NewGarden
for about six months once. I met Lex a few times. He didn't have
anything too exotic then. A PT-19 and a Tiger Moth IIRC. There was a P-
38 in an open shed with an observers nose on it that I think got brought
up to ferryable status and was crashed by it's new owner. Shame.
Aside form that that part of the world wasn't part of my stomping
ground.
Bertie
>
>
Bertie the Bunyip
news:lnljf357nuk8nujf6...@4ax.com:
> Bertie
>
> Are you sure your not talking about the BT-13 (Vultee Vibrator) vs the
> T-6? It would shake the glass out of windows when it went by at
> take-off power. Was told that the two position Prop in flat pitch, the
> tips would go super sonic causing all the noise and vibration????
>
Yes, very sure. I flew the T-6 and the wheels came up on it!
I have flown a lot of Beech 18s which of course had the same engine on it
as the Vultee. Quite a lot of the ones with the Ham Standards on them would
let loose an earsplitting howl at takeoff RPM. I used to pull them back
just a tad to stop it, reckoning that the props must have been set
incorrectly on those airplanes. It was absoultely unbearable, even with a
decnt (for the time) headset
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in
>> news:Jb2dnTjMvP5YpGTb...@rcn.net:
>>
>>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in
>>>> news:VcidnWqfZsqSqGTb...@rcn.net:
>>>>
>>>>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>>>> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:T6WdnQOPS9H0FGXb...@rcn.net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree John. I've probably propped a thousand planes in my day.
>>>>>>> The one
>>>>>>> situation I have always warned pilots about is the nosewheel
>>>>>>> airplane
>>>>>>> sitting extra low. Could be a low nose strut or just a bad angle
>>>>>>> where it's parked. The Mooney is a tad low tis true.
>>>>>>> My general rule is that if I have to bend down below a natural
>>>>>>> stance with my hands on the prop, it's a bad situation for hand
>>>>>>> propping that airplane.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to mention that it's just about impossible to get the
>>>>>> leverage you need to pull them through. I have gotten them going
>>>>>> by tying the tail dwon so that it pulled the nose up. And once by
>>>>>> getting two other pax in the airplane to lean on the rear of the
>>>>>> fuselage to get the nose up. Works OK, but it's still awkward
>>>>>> compared to a tailwheel airplane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which only goes to further the argument that Nosewheels are a
>>>>>> crime against nature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bertie
>>>>> Spoken like a man of my own ripe old age :-)) Too bad we couldn't
>>>>> have put your Luscombe in the hangar long enough to get you
>>>>> checked out in the Mustang. A few trips around the patch flying
>>>>> the T6 from the back seat would probably have done the trick for
>>>>> you. D
>>>> I've flown a T-6, but not a Mustang. Also spent a good few years
>>>> flying Twin Beeches and DC-3s, Did a few horus in an S1-C a long
>>>> time ago which scared the crap out of me mostly because my friend
>>>> who had built it would have killed me for scraping a wingtip, but
>>>> mostly I fly kiddy cars now. Just in the process of buying a 7KCAB,
>>>> though!
>>>>
>>>> Bertie
>>>>
>>> I had an acro student who owned a Citabria for awhile and we started
>>> training him in it. I liked the vertical performance a bit better
>>> than the Aerobat (which is a hoot as an acro platform :-). The
>>> Citabria snapped a bit nicer as well, although both were not "fast"
>>> by Pitts standards.
>>> The student liked acro so much (he was pretty well off) that he
>>> bought a new Decathlon. The first day he had it he caught the prop
>>> going over a mound of dirt on a wheel landing in Maryland. The
>>> second day he owned it he got a letter from Champion telling him
>>> about the spar AD. He was NOT a happy camper, but he laid out the
>>> money and did the AD. I never asked him how much it cost him :-)
>>> DH
>>
>> I used to fly a decatholon quite a bit. I liked it a lot. It was a
>> very solid feeling, predictable airplane that never ever surprised
>> me. The Citabria was OK, but I used to teach in one and wasn't crazy
>> about doing aerobatic instruction in it because it was just too easy
>> to get it going to fast if the student screwed up a slow roll, for
>> instance. I got even more nervous about them when the strut end AD
>> came out on them. the guys I worked for opted for the less expensive
>> lowering the redline approach o that AD. Still, for limited use
>> amongst a few guys it's perfect. Not as good as a 'Lakes, maybe, but
>> a good sport airplane.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> If you mean a Great Lakes, I agree. I loved that airplane! Had access
> to one and flew it often.
> I also agree on the potential dishout problems with students doing
> slow rolls. In the Citabria I always taught slow rolls in two parts;
> the roll to inverted, then the last half from inverted.
Hmm, never tried that. Since I'm going to be doing it again in a
Citabria I might try it.
The Citabria
> has a fairly nose high level flight inverted flight attitude and I
> fould it easier for the student if they sought that inverted attitude
> then stopped there.
Yes, that's where th edifficulty usually lay. They'd get it upside down
and then they'd be nose low, then,of course we'd be accelerating
downhill while trying to push the nose up (and starting to see red,and
getting very uncomfortable) and then they'd always pull! I just hoped
the wings were still attached when I regained consciousness.
Usually i demonstrated the inverted flight attitude to them so they knew
what thye were looking for, but I like your idea better.
Teaching them "top" rudder and "bottom" rudder had
> the desired effect of getting students in the habit of thinking where
> the rudder should be as they attempted the last half of the roll. The
> final step of course was the blending in of all crossed controls as
> the roll was executed. You're right about the Citabria. It did indeed
> have a tendency to dish out of a slow roll if you were a bit late
> switching your feet through inverted.
> The Decathlon was much better due to the lower inverted nose attitude
> for level inverted flight and the faster roll rate. The Decathlon was
> one of my favorite acro mounts for new acro students for many of the
> reasons you have mentioned.
Yes, I liked it a lot for it's predictability. It's the only airplane I
ever went very low with.
Bertie
> D
>
Orval Fairbairn
Bertie the Bunyip <Sn@rt.1> wrote:
> Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in
> news:rc2dnS3CgM8YN2Tb...@rcn.net:
>
>
> OK, I must have got the story confused. That had to be the guy who was
> up at our place. I'll look up the N# of the T-6 when I get home. I don't
> know any of those guys, bu tI did have an airplane based at NewGarden
> for about six months once. I met Lex a few times. He didn't have
> anything too exotic then. A PT-19 and a Tiger Moth IIRC. There was a P-
> 38 in an open shed with an observers nose on it that I think got brought
> up to ferryable status and was crashed by it's new owner. Shame.
> Aside form that that part of the world wasn't part of my stomping
> ground.
That had to have happened 40 or more years ago.
Lex has mentioned the P-38 -- the story sounds the same. I don't think
he ever flew the P-38.
He bought 2 FM-2s and later sold one to Kermit Weeks. The one he kept
has occasionally won "Doggiest Warbird" at fly-ins.
BTW -- I believe that John is a cousin of Lwx's.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:orfairbairn-B00E...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net:
Not quite 40 years!
I'm not sure if he owned the P-38 or not, but whoever bought it ws
killed in it ferrying it IIRC. About '77 maybe.
Bertie
Steven P. McNicoll
"Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:1190553460.5...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> I've observed it done a zillion times, and I've hand propped a
> Cherokee 140. As with so many risky things -- it's relatively safe if
> done correctly.
>
> That said, watching a guy hand-prop a Cub from the cabin-side, while
> standing under the wing, is one of the scariest things I've seen in
> aviation. The procedure allows you many opportunities to hurt (or
> kill) yourself, and is pretty unforgiving to ham-fisted operators.
>
Propping these small taildraggers from behind is easier and safer than
propping from the front.
I have an Aeronca 7AC with a Continental A65-8, Stromberg
carburetor, no accelerator pump, but it does have a primer. It took a
bit of trial and error, but I've developed a procedure that starts the
engine on the first pull nine times out of ten.
First, I never start the engine without the tail tied down. I use a 20'
rope with a spring-loaded clasp on one end and a loop on the other end. The
looped end goes through the tail lift handle from the bottom, around a
convenient post behind the airplane and then forward to engage the clasp. I
pull the airplane forward until the rope is taut and place the end of the
light cord that opens the clasp in the cockpit.
For a cold engine start in warm weather I pull it through six blades with
the throttle closed. Then I give it two strokes on the primer and pull six
more blades through. On these last blades I pay close attention to how it
feels as I'm pulling the prop and the sound of the gas gurgling. After a
while you just know when it's right. I leave the propeller positioned at
ten and two o'clock when viewed from the front. I walk back to the
cockpit and open the throttle 1/4", turn the mags on. I position myself
behind the propeller on the right side, left hand on the door frame, both
feet firmly on the ground, facing about thirty degrees left of forward.
I place the fingers of my right hand on the trailing edge of the propeller
about a third of the way in from the tip. To start, my right arm moves
forward and down, which is the same direction the propeller blade has
to move. I continue the arm motion until my right arm is at my side,
when my arm and the propeller blade are both a bit past horizontal they
part company, the blade continues forward and down and my arm moves
rearward and down. This is usually followed by the engine roaring to life.
In cold weather I preheat and prime another stroke, with a warm engine
I prime less or not at all. I climb in the airplane, check for oil
pressure, adjust the throttle as necessary, secure the harness, and pull on
the little cord that opens the clasp of the tail tiedown. I pull the whole
thing aboard and place it in the baggage bin.
It's amazing how easy these engines start when they're properly primed!
Makes one very cautious around propellers. I've used the traditional method
of propping from the front and find this method superior. I'm far more
comfortable behind the propeller moving it away from me with both feet on
the ground and one hand on the airplane to steady myself than I am in front
of the airplane pulling the propeller toward me with one foot on the ground
and no hands on the airplane. Your mileage may vary.
Big John
I've got around 1250 hours in T-6 (just checked my Form 5) and never
thought they were noisy. Just typical round engine noise with a
collector ring.
Also flew the C-45 and Navy SNB with constant speed props. Nothing
like the Vultee. They of course made more noise than a single engine
with their two engines.
I'm going to the annual "Wings over Houston" air show the 6th and will
get to lay hands on a lot of the heavy iron I have flown :o)
If someone offered a ride in the airshow, I might take them up........
Remember. Pointy end forward :o)
John
********************************************
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:34:25 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip <Sn@rt.1>
wrote:
>Big John <Big...@hotmail.com> wrote in
Dudley Henriques
Just a suggestion as you are still flying, but what I used to do to
prevent that pull down into a split S out of a slow roll was to
interlock my two hands in back of the stick (not touching it mind you,
because you don't want to break the student's confidence) and form a
solid "barrier" just far enough behind where I knew the stick should be
in that second half of the roll. What this did allowed the student full
stick play IF HE/SHE WAS DOING THE ROLL CORRECTLY but created a solid
barrier that the stick would "hit" if pulled back far enough to initiate
an inverted nose down pull.
Split S' started from the airspeed being held at the inverted during a
slow roll and not countered with roll instead of pull could as I'm sure
you are well aware :-) easily over stress or even Vne the airplane.
Just a suggestion, but if you find yourself giving acro again, this
might come in handy
Consider it a "gift" from a friend :-)
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
set. I never understood them at all, and I know for a fact that at least
some of them REALLY didn't understand me :-)
D
--
Dudley Henriques
Dudley Henriques
You have just given meaning to the phrase "being well ahead of the
airplane " :-)))
Dudley
--
Dudley Henriques